2v2 2v2 Doubles

[IBM]

WHIMSICOTT POST
​

Ok so we’re decently far into OMPL and one Pokémon clearly stands out if you’re trying to build, play, or even just watching, and that is the OG member of the no fun gang: Whimsicott

As of writing this post Whimsicott is #1 in pl usage with a 14/19 (74%) winrate, as well as having a winrate of 7/8 (88%) in games where it is picked, with the only loss being Whimsicott vs Whimsicott. This is absolutely insane when you think about it, not even Urshifu Dark had stats this good. Ok enough setup, why is it good?

Tailwind: Prankster tailwind is incredibly good because it allows the partner mon to double their speed turn 1, which is obviously very good on Pokémon like regidrago and heatran which really need the speed to get their attacks off, but the real area where tailwind shines is with mons that are already fast, like Cinderace, which is strong enough and has the coverage to pretty much OHKO whatever it wants. There is practically no way to outspeed Cinderace in tailwind unless if you bring your own Whimsicott and a faster mon that can OHKO it, which obviously only makes the meta a whims vs whims spamfest. Let’s try the good old tricks to beat tailwind: Fake out, Trick room, and old fashioned Protect outplays.

Encore: You really tried it. Lmao. You stupid bitch. Fuck you. So I lied, actually none of those work vs Whimsicott because it can always prankster encore you into a status move to effectively OHKO that mon by locking it into a status move for the rest of the game. This is the real issue with Whimsicott, the fact that it can force a straight 2v2 with no status moves simply by existing, and you know what will surely give the Whimsicott team the advantage in this situation? That’s right, mother. fucking. Tailwind. I rest my case. Playing against it you are forced to just click the attacking move unless you are A: A dark type or B: Indeedee/Tapu lele is on the field, and all of these mons are extremely predictable and abusable with the friends Whimsicott hangs around with, hard hitters like Cinderace and Zapdos for dark types, Tapu Fini and Metagross for the terrain mons. Whimsicott can also take advantage of certain attacking moves you use, say it’s paired with Regidrago and you use a dragon move to kill regi, it can encore you into that move to you will be unable to hit it.

My thoughts on action that should be taken:
My primary suggestion is to ban prankster outright, it’s consistently been a problem in SS 2v2 with the big 3 being Tornadus, Whimsicott, and Sableye. (which does similar things to whims but quash and disable added in exchange for bulk) Personally I find building to be very restrictive with these mons around and I think action should be taken as soon as possible, mid PL. Thank you for coming to my TED talk

 

[Morgan]

this silly fella IBM is now a member of the Sword Shield 2v2 metagame council.

Also welcome Chris32156 and Adam3560 to the Sword Shield 2v2 VR Council :3

also since this is metagame thread, i may as well post my personal VR for the current metagame.

S

Cottonee

S-

Victini
Cinderace
Indeedee-F


A+

Incineroar
Kyurem-B
Rillaboom
Genesect
Zygarde-50%

A

Togekiss
Naganadel
Volcanion
Celesteela
Regidrago

A-

Diancie
Dragapult
Landorus-T
Zapdos-G
Blastoise

B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:

 

[Kowasabii]

this silly fella IBM is now a member of the Sword Shield 2v2 metagame council.

Also welcome Chris32156 and Adam3560 to the Sword Shield 2v2 VR Council :3

also since this is metagame thread, i may as well post my personal VR for the current metagame.

S

Whimsicott

S-

Victini
Cinderace
Indeedee-F

A+

Incineroar
Kyurem-B
Rillaboom
Genesect
Zygarde-50%

A

Togekiss
Naganadel
Volcanion

A-

Diancie
Celesteela
Regidrago
Landorus-T
Zapdos-G
Blastoise

B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:

i havent plsyed 2v2 very much this gen. But doesn’t talonflame outclass whimsicott? Or am I going crazy?

better speed tier and it also do get thst priority brave bird t1

 

[Phantomistix]

i havent plsyed 2v2 very much this gen. But doesn’t talonflame outclass whimsicott? Or am I going crazy?

better speed tier and it also do get thst priority brave bird t1

fake out.exe

 

[zioziotrip]

I think whimsi is p cancerous for the tier. While initially I think the lack of power made it easier to deal w than torn it’s p clear than encore just invalidates a lot of counterplay. Agree totally with this proposal, would like to see it gone asap. e: do not ban prankster arbitrarily Lol sab and worse shit like liepard is not remotely problematic. P cleae to me prankster tw is the issue not prankster at large, quash being an issue is a meme

I’d also like if people watching/playing ompl would keep a watch on indeedee. I think psyspam/indeedee builds are way too strong rn and they are pretty frustrating builder-wise. Similar to whimsi, psy terrain makes it hard to shore-up indeedee spamming follow me w/o prio options. It’s also incredibly hard to kill compared to other redirectors. There are currently two viable darks (incin and moltg) which aren’t even great at stopping indeedee due to speed and banking on a spread move respectively. This lets indeedee run tanga and suddenly it is very hard to kill. It’s also smth to note that indeedee can function on its own in lategame by spamming eforce. I think reliable counterplay is limited to level <98 terrain setters and intim cress builds which idt are built to last. I’m open that indeedee may just be exploiting the attacker+prio heavy tier that whimsi creates but I would encourage people to keep an eye on this mon. Thx for reading

 

[RADU]

whimsicott has always been slightly better than tornadus, since prankster encore is one of the most broken combinations in 2v2, entirely invalidating Protect and Fake Out and being able to do so much more. the only problem it had was losing to tornadus itself by dying to hurricane or being prankster taunted, even. ban it instantly without going through suspect, otherwise we may see another torn situation
for the love of god do not ban prankster though.

indeedee is broken but manageable, I think it particularly stands out currently because psychic terrain blocks whimsicott encore which makes whimsi builds fall on themselves a little. idt it's gonna get banned but it might in the future, I've been frustrated trying to reliably beat psyspam cores for ages, and the amount of good abusers is annoying

 

[Adam3560]

short post but whimsicott is 100% broken right now, I can't say much that hasn't been said yet but I'd be surprised if it wasn't gone in a week or two. I believe cottonee is the next decision that has to be made after whimsicott, it gets prankster tailwind and encore like it's brother(father? aunt?), but much less bulk. I'd argue though that whimsicott's bulk is nowhere near as important as prankster encore and that cottonee is at least somewhat worthy of a ban(freezai video when?)


I said a while ago and I still think now that victini is an incredibly solid pokemon that borders on broken. I've used the hell out of weakness policy victini with either it's own wisp, reflect regieleki(glaciate on victini to 2hko zygarde) or a partner with light screen, which beats nearly all of its checks, other than incineroar(and liechi reversal can lure non chople). I'd say a whimsicott ban would make victini better, as one of victini/psyspam's biggest issues is tailwind regidrago and just regidrago in general. If we fully remove prankster tailwind victini will have a much easier time with weakness policy shenanigans as well as always outpacing regidragos not under trick room, which'll let it get away with a lot more stuff.

also thanks for vr council!! I joined my first 2v2 tour to fill spots on a team and somehow snowballed into a place where my opinion is valued and appreciated which is so crazy and amazing. Normally I'd thank luck for an opportunity like this but today I'll thank blanched for convincing me to sign up for pools league, Chris numbers for building with me for swiss, and most of 2v2 community for dealing with my incessant ramblings.

 

[Mubs]

Whimsicott has been banned from 2v2 Doubles. Tagging Kris and Marty for Implementation. As with previous votes, expect a resuspect (given with this being a council quickban a 50% vote majority as opposed to a 60% vote) around when OMPL wraps up.

 

[Morgan]

View attachment 422471

Whimsicott has been banned from 2v2 Doubles. Tagging Kris and Marty for Implementation. As with previous votes, expect a resuspect (given with this being a council quickban a 50% vote majority as opposed to a 60% vote) around when OMPL wraps up.

Cottonee Moment

 

[latios777]

This thing also exist

talonflame moment

Talonflame @ Life Orb

Ability: Gale Wings

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Tailwind

- Protect

- Flare Blitz

- Brave Bird

Why arctozolt isn't ranked and arctovish is?

 

[torterraxx]

I feel like vish is generally better since it nukes stuff like incin, victini, and cinderace while still beating stuff like blastoise by typing alone that you would use zolt for. Being able to beat Celesteela and Volcanion is definently useful though for ninetales teams. I think it would be fair around B-.

 

[Chris32156]

Vr Noms That I don't think anyone else will make besides maybe morgan

UR -> A+ - Talonflame now has the only prankster tw outside of cottonee, has a base 120 bp stab move that is priority at full health, has a good mu vs the majority of top mons, and its type allows it to deal with grass and steel types which allows it to be amazing support while dealing with pokemon that some sweepers can't hit. If you disagree with this please @ me in the 2v2 discord on why you do and I will respond angrily with multiple paragraphs.

b -> B+ - Naturally synergizes well with Pokemon like regieleki, rilla, heatran, zygarde, etc, Has access to encore, icy wind, aurora veil, and some other cool tech, is a counter to a decent chunk of good mons like zyg, rilla, and regidrago, and unless if your facing chris numbers chances are you aren't going to prep against it so it can lead to a lot of good mus

UR -> A- - Bulky ID leech seed + intimidate is an insanely good wincon, and has a couple of free matchups. Also has the potential to run meteor beam or wide guard sets which are good in their own respects and can force people to play suboptimally vs defensive steela.

B -> A - Bulldoze/fling salac + wp can solo a lot of teams

Probably some mons Im forgetting so I will likely edit sometime later this week

 

[Chris32156]

Ban prankster tw part 77

Anyone who has watched more than a set or two of OMPL has noticed the prevalence and dominance of priority tailwind setters. It's pretty common for simple hyper offense teams to dominate ladders, but not at the highest level of play in a format.

Full Usage stats

Cottonee:
Cottonee has a win rate of 52%, a click rate of 48%, and a win rate when clicked of 60% which seems good but not broken on paper. Rereading IBM's Whimsicott showed that Whimsicott only lost when clicked against opposing Whimsicott, which gave me the idea to check if the same was true for Cottonee. Out of the 8 games where a Cottonee was picked, it won 4 times, lost twice, and faced another Cottonee twice. The two replays where Cottonee lost when picked were:
yuki(Brought) Vs Chris Numbers L - Missed Draco Meteor, also facing another priority tailwind setter
yuki (Brought) Vs papiloco L - Misplay by Yuki turn 2, should've Encored Landorus and Ice Punched Rillaboom

Cottonee Replays

Potatochan789(Brought) Vs london13 W https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1570465793
yuki \xe2\x99\xaa(Brought) Vs Chris Numbers L https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1569357569
adam3560(Brought) Vs zioziotrip W https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1568568332
STABLEPRINCE \xe8\x81\x96(Brought) Vs papiloco(Brought) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1575480711
london13(Brought) Vs zioziotrip W https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1575571573
PA(Brought) Vs Itchy \xe2\x99\xa4 ~~ W https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1575527944-7hwcc35gsewqgl2p5c5ciol05vgryizpw
yuki \xe2\x99\xaa(Brought) Vs papiloco L https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1579340241
yuki \xe2\x99\xaa(Brought) Vs papiloco(Brought) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1579343267

Talonflame:
Talonflame has a win rate of 71%, a click rate of 47%, and a win rate when clicked of 75%. Cottonee being banned is pretty universally agreed upon however despite having better stats in OMPL the same cannot be said about Talonflame. The combination of Talonflame and Regidrago effectively destroys everything that is not a fairy type outside of maybe Haban Kyurem-Black. Out of the 8 games Talonflame was picked it won 6 and lost twice. The two replays where Talonflame lost when picked were:
Chris32156(Brought) Vs london13 L - Misplay by me I should've used Tailwind and Wood Hammer on the Blastoise, then Rillaboom High Horsepowers and wins.
Chris Numbers(Brought) Vs adam3560 L - Double Protect

Talonflame Replays

Chris32156(Brought) Vs london13 L https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1549150321-ez76p6p9omc37rqmjvhxw07nsa6aq1gpw
Chris Numbers(Brought) Vs blanched W https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1564909179
Chris Numbers(Brought) Vs yuki \xe2\x99\xaa W https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1569357569
adam3560(Brought) Vs zioziotrip W https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1568575796
Chris Numbers(Brought) Vs adam3560 L https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1570683069
Chris Numbers(Brought) Vs adam3560 W https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1570692706
Chris Numbers(Brought) Vs zioziotrip W https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1579407583
Chris Numbers(Brought) Vs zioziotrip W https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen82v2doubles-1579409156

My thoughts on action that should be taken:
Either ban Talonflame and Cottonee or ban neither. The only thing that is stopping Talonflame from being considered broken is that I'm the only one that uses him. If Cottonee is banned, Talonflame will have a monopoly on priority tailwind. I've seen people argue that Talonflame will be worse if Cottonee is banned but it will only lead to people making similar hyper offensive Tailwind teams except with Talonflame over Cottonee. Simillar to how Whimsicott and Cottonee skyrocketed in usage after Tornadus and Whimsicott got banned respectively, the same would happen to Talonflame. It also gets rid of the best fairy type which makes blindly clicking Tailwind and Dragon Energy significantly easier. The only reliable way these two pokemon have lost is against themselves, through RNG, or by misplays which obviously is unhealthy.

 

[IBM]

Hey. Mubs here. In light of upcoming tournaments such as OM Premier League playoffs and 2v2 Premier League, theres been some changes with regards to updating our resources and getting people on the same page on what is to come up next.

Congrats IBM on council and Chris32156 and Adam3560 on VR Council

Viability Rankings
We realized the old VR system was rather ineffective, so a real VR spreadsheet was created, and can be viewed here:
Sheet
Im not gonna make a list of the shifts but hopefully averaging the votes of council members + updating votes monthly keeps a relatively accurate VR for y’all.

Alright short update over, Mubs out

 

[Mubs]

Cottonee has been banned from 2v2 Doubles. Tagging Kris and Marty for Implementation. Expect wider discussion on Priority Tailwind within the near future. I think having 3 abusers banned in succession warrants that. Have a nice day and sign up for 2v2 PL III if you haven't already.

 

[Morgan]

Watch the newest video from the 2v2 Doubles Youtube team, all about weather in gen8!

 

[hayedenn]

vr noms and metagame thoughts now that pl is over

raises
-> A+
amazing glue, great in many mus, can fit on almost every style of team.
-> A+
fastest fake out + strong + eweb + neat coverage options
-> A
i really like stoise atm as a water resist + follow me bot, and if u get the right resist berry mu it's REALLY good
-> A-
broken on rain, outside of rain it's inconsistent
+ -> A+
literally metagame warping. so good
-> B+
i think goltres is really good atm, especially bulkier sets. very solid poke. wp sets live a ton and usually trigger it. berserk makes it super strong
-> B-/B
good mon, even if it is a bit fishy
-> B+/A-
generally consistent, strong, great with fake out support
-> B
great with tr support. polter/flare blitz are great STAB coverage and it has eq/bonemerang for stuff like incin

drops
-> A/A-
fell off a bit. still very good but i think it has less favorable mus now bc fini is everywhere along with rilla and friends
-> A-/B+
maybe im crazy but volc isnt as good as it once was. it still has a niche bc wabsorb but eh
-> B/B-
fell off. it just isnt good
-> B/B-
just too niche and inconsistent as a defensive setup sweeper
-> B/B-
fell off as a sand abuser and strong jaw sets r just so meh unless u get perfect mu
-> somewhere in C
literally what does this mon do it's so ass
-> somewhere in C
ass, hail fell off
-> somewhere in C
ass. queenly majesty isnt even that good and the mon alone gets walled by a ton and outsped and ko'd a ton
-> somewhere in C
gets near-zero usage. ass
-> somewhere in C
has a niche but not a super clear one


other noms
-> A
-> A-
-> UR
-> UR
-> UR
-> UR
-> UR
-> UR
-> UR
-> UR
-> UR
-> UR
-> UR

unranked noms
-> B
the best mon on sand atm, bolt beak is just generally good into a lot and the coverage options (flamethrower) are really nice
-> B/B-
best mon on sun, enables torkoal a ton. less good now but still a great pick
-> somewhere in C
not nearly as good as ttar but it's a solid stall mon with slack off/toxic/filler
-> somewhere in B
hatterene but it's good into incin. meteor beam unfortunately cannot ohko av but otherwise it has a decent niche over hatt
-> somewhere in C
dude, level 1 sets are REAL and GOOD (if fishy)
-> B-/C+
scary face/twave sets are solid and like, are kinda just a speed control option that mus well into fini and steela? it's typing and stab combination def gives it a niche
-> somewhere in C
with gweezing it can fish good mus and is something that should be kinda prepped for

metagame thoughts

i still think rain is way too centralizing on the tier. part of the reason fini exploded in usage is because rain is so brainless and stupid, and if people stopped spamming the 1 1/2 year old morgan team and actually tried to optimize it, i think more people would agree it's broken. it's just so unhealthy and annoying to prep for


for some reason people stopped running psychic resists so this core exploded again. once people remember incin exists it'll probably fall off, but for now it's good. it's really consistent too. we ran psychic seed deedee purely for eleki but honestly iron ball is probably better now that people have been running iron ball rilla.


i think sab is really good in this meta although im just now realizing im saying this when psyspam has exploded in usage. sableye + fini, sableye + cinder, sableye + regidrago. it's generally really solid and anti-meta into a lot of cores and i like it :3


i like trick room a lot atm. i think p2 + wak is one of the more optimal cores, but i have also seen wak + diancie. i like that core less just since it opens u up a lot to zygarde and such but still, solid. wak also pairs really well with mons like fini and goltres which appreciate the immunity a lot


i like tw talonflame less now than i did at the beginning of the tour but it's still solid. talon + regidrago is still solid (although it's mono lose to fini). win button fell off tho


i've been going to redirection mons a lot in the builder, especially stoise. with stoise at least, i think it's just really consistent in this meta (esp if u get the right resist berry mu as i said) and it enables not only a lot of offensive pokes but defensive ones too like celesteela


ive been liking fake out users less than i have previously. it isnt even that they're bad, but it's almost like they've become oversaturated in the metagame and are just so prepped for that they can feel like dead weight at times. still really good though


sand is a solid niche weather that deserves more love. dracozolt is a really solid abuser and vish is a niche one as well. with how common fini is, zolt can get really solid matchups and is something that also isnt dead weight if ur forced to go zolt + not sand mon


idk if id say sun fell off, but it definitely isnt as good as it was at the start of PL. i think fini ironically kinda makes it a bit worse bc it means u cant spam eruption, but after you + eruption is still demonic so it should be used a bit more


hail fell off, full stop. it isnt good, stop using it. it loses to rain. move on

 

[Opchurtle100]

team dump from 2v2 ssnl(teams will go from the least viable and dogshit to semi decent)

Guard split latias + shuckle : https://pokepast.es/959edb12e5ad178d

shit team dont use this.

Sexy rain team with douse sect: https://pokepast.es/ef7175f8945ffc22

loses to fini but can lure fire types and beat them with douse sect + pelipper. Rain dance kingdra + toise beats sun teams. still loses to a lot

Stoutland + tr tini : https://pokepast.es/2e2abb6c2bec311f

Stoutland hits surprisingly hard with last resort. It also provides intim support so tini can set up tr with more ease. Passho max spdef tini is for setting up tr in front of fini. Blissey + boom rounds out the team by beating many special attackers that threaten the original tini stoutland core.

Mimikyu Drago: https://pokepast.es/2d54ee7001d26aa6
by
goofy idea I had in pre whim meta. +1 drago kills a lot of things but the mimikyu tr is sorta obvious.

Simple beam latios: https://pokepast.es/7cf8fc1f78cb7361

Simple beam latios + toise obliterates many rain teams and eq toise beats the most common rain team rn(toad dra sect eleki). Honestly aura sphere can be dropped for ice beam, water spout, surf, or tect. Amoonguus provides the needed redirection support for ss toise and cinderace rounds out the team well by beating everything.

Zarude: https://pokepast.es/2538ff2986e23722

Zarude sucks. I tried to make it work on psyspam so it has a better mirror mu against opposing psyspam. Diance rounded out the team well by beating togekiss, drago, and abusing indeedee's redirection.

TR Incineroar: https://pokepast.es/ccc79caf7fa36842

Lash out inicn + oranguru does a crazy amount of damage. Idea was incin would fake out the one actual threat on the oppnent's team and guru would get tr up. Then guru would bulldoze and incin would kill everything. Paired it with a solid fire water and that can also abuse tr while also still work really well together.

Fling Phero + Jellicent: https://pokepast.es/8a7e7eb5b5d9fbe3

Fling Phero + jellicent can really surprise teams that dont have blazing fast pokemon. Paired it with toise + kyub for redirection support and kyub toise is broken.

Mamoswine + wp lucha: https://pokepast.es/ee5e4dd5322b86c7

funny team where mamoswine works really well at enabling lucha and still providing necessary defensive utility against fire types. Tw Naga tran helps with the psyspam mu and moments where you cant go mamoswine lucha(against fairies for example).

DD Chople kyub + clef: https://pokepast.es/50d1b06be4f3b887

Team was built around trying to make kyub as broken as possible. Combined it with speed control with eleki, fake out with incin, and redirection with clef.

Soak fini: https://pokepast.es/702feb56f346fc27

originally built in torn meta. Soak fini makes rilla beat stuff it usually loses to like kyub, genesect, and other things. Eleki also benefits from the soak. Lucha rounds out by providing speed control. tbh you could go fp > tw on lucha for better sect mu.

Double Genie Offense: https://pokepast.es/f133e112da1c5654

Thundy + pult beats most weather based stradegies, many tw tflame ideas, scarf mons, and regieleki. Lando steela forms a really strong defensive core and Lando also appreciates thundy's speed control.

DD Dragapult: https://pokepast.es/ac9a71ba0e8da3b6

Fake out zera almost guarantees dragapult will get a dd t1. At +1, pult outspeeds most of everything in the meta. I paired it with rillaboom so there is even more fake out support and rilla + zera beats most relevant fairies making dpult a really strong click. Zap-g fit the team really nice as a last to beat incin and kyub. Yache helps with ice beam phero and kyub.

Volcarona rain: https://pokepast.es/e964c5c9880fe651

Volcarona works surprisingly well on rain because of how much rain appreciates redirection and a rillaboom answer. Blissey fit well to wall many of the special attackers that smash rain and abuse volc's rage powder with charm.

Tflame Gastro: https://pokepast.es/c1ab8662bfb8a975

Came up with the idea with Despacito87 in the pre shifu bad meta to cteam someone spamming rilllaboom. This team is a new and improved version which is much better suited for the current meta. Clefable > togekiss for redirection provides a better mu against both kyub and regieleki. Clefable can also act as a unbreakable wall if needed with cosmic power + soft boiled. Av volc rounds the team well and bulks a tbolt from eleki with a good roll.

Guard Split Diance and Chansey: https://pokepast.es/68ddede43f1a7fd1

the best team i made. diance and chansey attempts to make chansey as bulky as possible with guard split. Wisp + disable sableye is for fighting types and further supports chansey.

s/o to Adam3560 and Chris32156 for putting up with my 2v2 bullshit. Special thanks to Despacito87 who built 90% of the teams in this post with me.