Serious 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

[MikeDawg]

Deflect. Deflect deflect deflect. It's not my president's fault, it's the fault of a political opponent that they already beat.

What exactly am I deflecting from? lol

I clearly expressed my disapproval of Biden supporters minimizing what Joe said, and even provided a link to my favorite commentator roasting him for it. Here it is again, for your convenience:

I'm not a fan of how a lot of white Dems are dismissing Joe's gaff as totally innocuous, because it was obviously insensitive. I understand the desire to minimize controversy, because the mere scent of a scandal sends desperate Bernie bros, Trump fans, and CNN pundits into a feeding frenzy, but it's still pretty tasteless.

That makes your "cultist following" description a bit suspect too. What kind of cult member voluntarily criticizes their supposed cult? Really strange choice of words.

irt my second comment: Gato made a throwaway quip, and I responded. Then I wrote more words about a tangentially-related subject. Nothing in my post was about blaming anyone for anything. Unless you mean me contextualizing Biden's consistently stable base, in which case... that's not a negative, so I'm not sure "blame" is the right word. lol

Where's the deflection?

"That's identity politics" "Rape is a political weapon" Maybe you should be the one making a firebot thread pretending to be liberal

What does this even mean? I was sarcastically quoting Bernie supporters when I said "identity politics", and I was also talking about Bernie supporters turning rape into a political weapon. You somehow read the exact opposite point from my comment. It's especially ironic considering I've been the only one in this thread speaking out against the "identity politics" dogwhistle. Keep up.

Your bizarre one-sided war with me is clouding your reading comprehension. You'll be much happier if you assume positive intent!

 

[vonFiedler]

You'll be much happier if you assume positive intent!

Bernie lost the democratic primary almost three months ago, something almost no one is disputing at this point, and apparently all his "bros" hate him now or something. Yet you bring him up and attack his former voters in almost every post you make. What's the point? Don't you actually want people to vote Blue?

One can only conclude that you're either a republican plant trying to alienate liberal voters (oddly enough, your go to accusation for everyone else), or such a (censored for being mean and hostile!) that you don't even notice that your constant need to one-up everyone is getting in the way of your political hopes. Which of these is positive intent? I'm leaning on the second one myself.

 

[RaikouLover]

Nothing has been said that wasn't said about Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavanaugh's accusers.

False equivalency.

Of course Biden could be cleared of wrongdoing, but fielding him as a candidate over other (let's say establishment if that pacifies you) candidates is ludicrous and destroys any credibility in fighting rape.

Which he was - the Reade story (or whichever version of it for that particular day) fizzled out.

Biden won the primary in a landslide. We don't have to love him. Accept that he is the candidate.

Also, it's wacky ignorant to say that "this Tara Reade thing is over" when Republicans are already running ads about it (the fact that they are being hypocrites does not allow us to be). That's going to be the Republican play. It will be the Republican play for a decade after Biden wins or loses. You cannot run a democratic alleged rapist racist against a republican alleged rapist racist... republicans actually like those qualities.

As was already stated, the Tara Reade faux scandal was a Republican hit job gone bad. She couldn't even show up for her Fox News interview. Why are progressives still falling for this garbage?

 

[MikeDawg]

Nothing has been said that wasn't said about Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavanaugh's accusers.

Did you miss the part where her story totally fell apart and her lawyer quit?

Of course Biden could be cleared of wrongdoing, but fielding him as a candidate over other (let's say establishment if that pacifies you) candidates is ludicrous and destroys any credibility in fighting rape.

So we should replace Biden for being accused of rape even if he's cleared of wrongdoing? That's ludicrous.

What do you think firing a presidential nominee over a false rape allegation would do to the credibility of fighting rape???

This is the definition of weaponizing rape for political gain. Maybe you should be the one making a firebot thread pretending to be liberal.

You cannot run a democratic alleged rapist racist against a republican alleged rapist racist... republicans actually like those qualities.

Except very few people believe Tara Reade at this point (including yourself, if you were to get informed), and Biden currently has a larger lead than he did before the allegations came out.

 

[vonFiedler]

Biden won the primary in a landslide. We don't have to love him. Accept that he is the candidate.

Not only is this a very good campaign slogan... no, I won't. When I was conservative, radical conservatives forced me out by electing an evil, evil man who should have been a nonstarter candidate. Now it's happening all over again. The numerous accusations of inappropriate conduct. The numerous gaffs about race. Every time one happens, you say it doesn't matter, move on, act like they don't pile up. They have. This is gaslighting. I know the difference between "what about those EMAILS i haven't read" and copious pictures of sniffed hair. Sure, it's hard to express the paradox around how Biden is radically better for the country than Trump but also both are impossible to vote for, but that's the unfortunate situation we're in. And it would be super douchy to say "I won't vote", because I live in a state where voting is arbitrary anyway. I don't envy people who live in swing-states. But I can contact my representatives, express my concerns, and hope a few other people do as well.

I hope you take this response at least a little seriously, as you are the comparative voice of reason between the two of you.

 

[MikeDawg]

You just made a whole off-topic post accusing me of deflecting, once again derailing the thread into a discussion of MikeDawg. Your reading comprehension has been off today, so I'll say it again: You derailed this thread with antagonistic drivel, not me.

Now instead of responding to me, you... wait for it... deflected. You're now 2/2 in accusing me of things that you're guilty of, all while saying I'm projecting. Just stop.

The site doesn't let you ignore mods, and I'm so tired of reading your constant attacks on me. Control yourself. Please.

One can only conclude that you're either a republican plant trying to alienate liberal voters (oddly enough, your go to accusation for everyone else), or such a (censored for being mean and hostile!) that you don't even notice that your constant need to one-up everyone is getting in the way of your political hopes. Which of these is positive intent? I'm leaning on the second one myself.

What does that even mean? I posted an independent comment. You responded to me in the same antagonistic way you always do, and now you're accusing me of trying to one-up people. Do you even realize how much you're projecting?

I hope you take this response at least a little seriously, as you are the comparative voice of reason between the two of you.

There you go again, being needlessly insulting and antagonistic.

I appreciate this comment, though. You've been demonstrably incorrect for this entire page (and have done nothing but deflect from those checks), so I can only assume the same applies here.

 

[RaikouLover]

Not only is this a very good campaign slogan... no, I won't. When I was conservative, radical conservatives forced me out by electing an evil, evil man who should have been a nonstarter candidate. Now it's happening all over again. The numerous accusations of inappropriate conduct. The numerous gaffs about race. Every time one happens, you say it doesn't matter, move on, act like they don't pile up. They have. This is gaslighting. Sure, it's hard to express the paradox around how Biden is radically better for the country than Trump but also both are impossible to vote for, but that's the unfortunate situation we're in. And it would be super douchy to say "I won't vote", because I live in a state where voting is arbitrary anyway. I don't envy people who live in swing-states. But I can contact my representatives, express my concerns, and hope a few other people do as well.

I hope you take this response at least a little seriously, as you are the comparative voice of reason between the two of you.

Forgive the frustration but there are so many frustrating things just in this one paragraph.

1) Joe Biden is not an evil man. He is not a monster candidate. Joe Biden is not a rapist, nor is he a racist.

2) Accusations in politics are nothing but that - accusations. They can be levied by any one at any time. However, credibility matters in such accusations. Both candidates having similar accusations does not make them (im)morally equal, as said accusations must be credible. (Example: 17 different women accusing of rape is not the same as a handful of women saying they are uncomfortable)

3) No, you're assigning importance to gaffes which is exactly the bigger point here. Gaffes in general are irrelevant bullshit. Dumb things that X candidate says is meaningless when it comes to who gets to institute public policy. No one who gives a fuck about the future of this country is going to abstain voting because Joe Biden, with a 40 year political record, occasionally says stupid shit on podcast interviews.

4) I don't much care how perfect or imperfect a candidate is so long as they win and can get my agenda passed. Frankly, one thing I admire about Republicans is how laser focused they are about getting their pieces on the board to legislate their agenda.

 

[TexanSansei]

Anyway Biden is ¨somewhat¨ trying to be more liberal because apparently the task force between him and Bernie has some liberal names in it. Quote- ¨Sanders’s allies seem encouraged about the names on the task force, which include vocal proponents for progressive policies like Medicare-for-All and a Green New Deal, like Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (NY) and Pramila Jayapal (WA)
News link I guess
Maybe Biden is getting more liberal minded, who knows.
A bigger maybe is if centralist Biden supporters will become more liberal because of this.
Of course all of these maybe´s are just that- maybes, who knows if they will become true.

 

[readytolose]

I believe Tara Reade

 

[RaikouLover]

I believe Tara Reade

I'll bite on this.

I never believed Tara Reade. It smelled like BS from the beginning. If Obama's suit color was worthy of scandal, surely a rape allegation against his VP would come forward. But you know.. timing is everything ;)

 

[MikeDawg]

Maybe Biden is getting more liberal minded, who knows.

Biden has the most progressive policies of any past nominee. The country is getting more liberal-minded, and Biden best reflects the left half of voters. That's the pill people can't seem to swallow. The president is one person to represent a few hundred million people. It'd be pretty egocentric to think he should align exactly with me when progressives only make up a few percent of the country.

A bigger maybe is if centralist Biden supporters will become more liberal because of this.
Of course all of these maybe´s are just that- maybes, who knows if they will become true.

More than half of Biden's supporters didn't want Biden in the first place. At one point when the field was packed, he was polling at 17%.

Biden gained 40 points since March 2, when (almost) everyone dropped out. Bernie gained 3.5 points.

That means Biden was second (or third... or fourth... or fifth) choice for nearly every Dem candidate, most of which had substantially more liberal bases than Biden.

That's also why von's "biden-bro" attempt is so inane. I wanted Kamala, Pete, Castro, or Warren. Biden's support exists by default.

 

[TexanSansei]

Biden has the most progressive policies of any past nominee. The country is getting more liberal-minded, and Biden best reflects the left half of voters. That's the pill people can't seem to swallow. The president is one person to represent a few hundred million people. It'd be pretty egocentric to think he should align exactly with me when progressives only make up a few percent of the country.



More than half of Biden's supporters didn't want Biden in the first place. At one point when the field was packed, he was polling at 17%.

Biden gained 40 points since March 2, when (almost) everyone dropped out. Bernie gained 3.5 points.

That means Biden was second (or third... or fourth... or fifth) choice for nearly every Dem candidate, most of which had substantially more liberal bases than Biden.

That's also why von's "biden-bro" attempt is so inane. I wanted Kamala, Pete, Castro, or Warren. Biden's support exists by default.

Im just talking about the centralist Biden supporters, not sure if I was giving the impression that all Biden supporters are centralists.

 

[SMOGONBIRD]

would you vote bill cosby if he ran on a liberal platform y/n

 

[TexanSansei]

would you vote bill cosby if he ran on a liberal platform y/n

Yeah I get the point, I mean if Biden at least looked more liberal we would get an actually liberal guy in the future, who knows

 

[MikeDawg]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-running-mate_n_5ecf63e2c5b682b4cb73134f

August 1st is later than I hoped for, but exciting nonetheless. It's also been confirmed that Kamala is first in line for vetting.

On that note, let's take a moment to compare a couple of responses to George Floyd's murder:

Kamala

Bernard

Insightful, substantive response vs the most generic, apathetic response imaginable. Only surprising if you haven't been paying attention for the last 5 years. We dodged a huge bullet.

 

[Stratos]

Insightful, substantive response vs the most generic, apathetic response imaginable.

i want smogon to have a confused react. any chance we could do something with Psyduck?

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

Biden shit his pants on TV

 

[Machoke]

Insightful, substantive response vs the most generic, apathetic response imaginable. Only surprising if you haven't been paying attention for the last 5 years. We dodged a huge bullet.

is this post an audition for the online slacktivist neolib performance awards (if so I think you're gonna win!) or are ur political priorities really creating callout posts out of perfectly normal responses to a national tragedy on twitter dot com lmao.

 

[boo836]

Nothing has been said that wasn't said about Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavanaugh's accusers.

Of course Biden could be cleared of wrongdoing, but fielding him as a candidate over other (let's say establishment if that pacifies you) candidates is ludicrous and destroys any credibility in fighting rape.

Also, it's wacky ignorant to say that "this Tara Reade thing is over" when Republicans are already running ads about it (the fact that they are being hypocrites does not allow us to be). That's going to be the Republican play. It will be the Republican play for a decade after Biden wins or loses. You cannot run a democratic alleged rapist racist against a republican alleged rapist racist... republicans actually like those qualities.

It says a lot about your sincerity when you straight up say it doesn't matter if it happened or not, it destroys their credibility in taking sexual assault allegations seriously. This is the fourth attempt this year of the GOP to falsely accuse their political opponents of sexual assault. The only reason why you treat this as being more credible than some dipshit like Jacob Wohl is largely owing to the psychotic vendetta of certain elements of the western left to sabotage opposition to the far right. You cannot pretend that you are anything other than part of the problem when you are going out of your way to legitimise fascist propaganda.

Here's a question I have for every single one of you performative "leftists" who suddenly care so much about sexual assault: Why has Katie Halper been ignoring questions about her NazBol co-host Matt Taibbi's autobiography discussing raping Russian teenagers and pressuring his interns for anal sex?

 

[boo836]

Also, I'm pretty sure Dr. Ford didn't have a decades-long career of fraud, public attempts at extortion, or a goddamned perjury investigation about her attempts to defraud domestic violence victims. All your first statement does is cast doubt on other victims to legitimise a career fraudster, which makes me doubt your sincerity further.

 

[vonFiedler]

Here's a question I have for every single one of you performative "leftists" who suddenly care so much about sexual assault: Why has Katie Halper been ignoring questions about her NazBol co-host Matt Taibbi's autobiography discussing raping Russian teenagers and pressuring his interns for anal sex?

I don't know who Matt Taibbi is and he's not one of two people (okay, one of one people) I have to consider voting for.

Seriously, that's your argument? "Why aren't you talking about every rape happening everywhere in the world?" That's an insanely low stance to take and then be so vitriolic (performative leftists? what?)

Dr. Ford had many conservatives accusing her of a "decades-long career of fraud, public attempts at extortion". That's how rape accusations shake out. It's always the accuser who is on trial, and whether or not Reade is telling the truth you are participating in rape apologism to resort to the same playbook. Not to mention citations needed, where exactly are these smoking guns coming from? If Biden isn't cleared properly (and he isn't, it's being rug-swept as is), then actual rape apologists will be saying "what about Reade?" for years (because actual politically dishonest do things like that, "if you suddenly care so much about x, why have you been ignoring y?")

Regarding my sincerity:

I do think this is the point we stop wishing ill of Biden. I wished ill of Hillary at this point, and I came to regret it (not that my mental wishes had any effect on anything). If any liberal thinks that Biden is as bad as Trump or even close, I dunno, I can't convince anybody of anything, but please really reexamine your thoughts and emotions and the state of this country. Every bit of discontent over Biden is just gonna be ammo Trump uses against him. We can be dissatisfied with the old buy starting the day he takes office.

I'm not treating this as anything but a worst case scenario. It's ridiculous and almost cosmically cruel that the party is sitting in such a pathetic state when it needs to be strong, but that's why I'm not saying "switch with Bernie", I'm saying "switch with anyone". And not without the understanding that that would only be the best of two awful choices.

 

[boo836]

Imagine telling people that it's irrelevant Reade's first choice to disseminate false sexual assault accusations co-hosts with a serial rapist that made a career writing about how he should be castrated. There is a literal perjury investigation into Reade defrauding domestic violence survivors, and you're going to pretend she's as credible as Dr. Ford?

 

[billymills]

Left wing american politics is so puritan. Constantly trying to eat itself up.
I wish progressives would be more forward thinking, looking at what would get the country on the right track, rather than constantly looking at history.

We are talking about an instance that may or may not have occurred 27 years ago. If you want to pick on Biden, pick on his issues now. There are plenty to pick through. But the idea that a political leader needs to be completely perfect for their whole life has got to go.

It's not that I want to ignore claims, it's that I think we should use them to evaluate the person as they are now.

Without evaluating the claims themselves, I think there's a real difference in how Biden and Trump comport themselves:
Biden does not go around bragging about sexual assault.
Biden has not gone around making obvious lies about the claims (ala Kavanaugh)
I think Biden would allow investigations into himself (or would be held responsible by others in his administration).

Requiring everyone to be perfect doesn't mean you get left with perfect candidates.
It means you get left with candidates who have the means to hide their past (rich and connected), or you get candidates that appeal to those without standards.

At the same time, the 'perfect' candidates that you are left with become synonymous with their ideas. Why do AOC and Sanders get so much attention? because they're the only candidates the left can't find flaws with, and the flag of the left is unfairly handed to them alone.

 

[vonFiedler]

We are talking about an instance that may or may not have occurred 27 years ago. If you want to pick on Biden, pick on his issues now. There are plenty to pick through. But the idea that a political leader needs to be completely perfect for their whole life has got to go.

I'm the first person to say "judge someone for who they are now", but it just can't be applied to sexual assault. It's not "an instance".
And if we must judge him now, then we're judging a man who 1. several women he has worked with have said he made them feel uncomfortable, 2. he's frequently seen touching women (of all ages) in weird ways. These things alone are sadly common for men with power (see Clinton), but I'm not a "fuck all men" kind of guy, so I have to feel that fielding candidate after candidate like this should be avoidable.

 

[politics understander]

Left wing american politics is so puritan. Constantly trying to eat itself up.
I wish progressives would be more forward thinking, looking at what would get the country on the right track, rather than constantly looking at history.

We are talking about an instance that may or may not have occurred 27 years ago. If you want to pick on Biden, pick on his issues now. There are plenty to pick through. But the idea that a political leader needs to be completely perfect for their whole life has got to go.

It's not that I want to ignore claims, it's that I think we should use them to evaluate the person as they are now.

Without evaluating the claims themselves, I think there's a real difference in how Biden and Trump comport themselves:
Biden does not go around bragging about sexual assault.
Biden has not gone around making obvious lies about the claims (ala Kavanaugh)
I think Biden would allow investigations into himself (or would be held responsible by others in his administration).

Requiring everyone to be perfect doesn't mean you get left with perfect candidates.
It means you get left with candidates who have the means to hide their past (rich and connected), or you get candidates that appeal to those without standards.

At the same time, the 'perfect' candidates that you are left with become synonymous with their ideas. Why do AOC and Sanders get so much attention? because they're the only candidates the left can't find flaws with, and the flag of the left is unfairly handed to them alone.

For starters the left has pointed out Biden's flaws for years. If, like you say, he has sO mAnY fLaWs, and yet you are still defending him, do you not get the picture? Pointing out obvious flaws doesn't work. It comes to the point where not even sexual harassment (not rape, but just harassment, for which he was caught on camera) can get the picture through to a liberal's brain.

Moreover this thread, in an effort to find something to talk about, has now brought up the notion that if you don't want biden you must surely want trump. In reality what it means to be left wing, and i mean actual left wing, is a rejection of electoral politics. We want BOTH biden and trump gone. We want a completely different system to electoral politics. All this has shown is how people who have spent probably decades of their life online still don't really even know what the left is and probably still think it just means being against climate change.

Lastly, in a country with 300 million people, the bar should be pretty fucking high if you want to rule over all of them. Unfortunately only liberals and republicans think the world is a meritocracy so if someone becomes president they must surely have deserved it. Forgive us for thinking that perhaps you shouldn't have groped people to be a president, after all that is just a minor flaw everyone has... do liberals really think groping people is some common mistake everyone has just done at some point in their life? Lmfao.

For the record, I'm talking about groping. Whether or not biden raped someone is irrelevant to me; he has been on video touching girls inappropriately and making the kinds of creepy comments to them that you dislike trump for making. This to me already disqualifies him and is not some minor flaw.

I've said we should close this thread since the nomination has effectively been decided and the republican thread would be more interesting in 2024, but it was deleted.