It wouldn't be the smogon draft without screwing gr33n over! Poor gr33n =[
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2013 Smogon Fantasy Hockey
- Thread starter Carl
- Start date
I actually thought it was monday night; but yahoo already adjusted the draft time in the mail (so it showed monday my time). By the time I were to set the values, the draft had commenced.
And indeed cashew :(((
And indeed cashew :(((
New IR+ roster spot in Fantasy Hockey
Yahoo Sports has introduced an IR+ roster spot for Fantasy Hockey this season.
Players eligible for this position will have the following injury designations:
Commissioners can add this roster spot by using the Edit Roster Settings tool. They may add up to five IR+ roster spots.
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Should we add this? It IS lame when your team is getting fucked by several of your keepers being injured at the same time. Plus we can finally add Day to Day injuries to it.
Yahoo Sports has introduced an IR+ roster spot for Fantasy Hockey this season.
Players eligible for this position will have the following injury designations:
- Injured Reserve
- Day-to-Day
Commissioners can add this roster spot by using the Edit Roster Settings tool. They may add up to five IR+ roster spots.
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Should we add this? It IS lame when your team is getting fucked by several of your keepers being injured at the same time. Plus we can finally add Day to Day injuries to it.
-IR slot
+2 IR+ slots?
I think that we should definitely add it, especially with yahoo being unreliable when it comes to IR (or just shit in general).
+2 IR+ slots?
I think that we should definitely add it, especially with yahoo being unreliable when it comes to IR (or just shit in general).
I'm all for it
Welp, Rinne out for at least a month. I'm boned.
Carl, Jackal, Synre, gr33n, Vineon, CaptainKishimoto, BlueCookies, Psycho, Justin8649
I think we should talk seriously about removing +/- as a stat. Now I know we all really like this 2:1 skater to goalie ratio we have, so here are some alternatives.
Blocked Shots
The pros and cons of blocked shots are that they boost defensemen too much. Forwards who excel in blocked shots generally aren't standard fantasy performers, but again, that is a pro or a con depending on perspective.
Shorthanded Points
The pro is that this category is something that isn't really represented too well currently (and short handed play is very important in hockey), but the con is that SHP are just as if not more sparse than GWG, and we got rid of GWG for a reason.
Split PPP into PPG and PPA
The pro is that it splits a category with enough volume into more discrete stats (both also with enough volume), but the con is that it increases redundancy on scoring.
The other alternatives aren't really too appealing to me, but if there is something I missed please mention it.
I'm honestly ok with anything we decide...I just really want +/- gone. I really think now, after 3-4 years of our keeper league, that keeping +/- is worse than any of those 3 options.
edit: also, side note for Synre
We only have 30 moves this year? Is that a holdover from a shortened lock out season or have we always had only 30?
Fsr I always thought a full season's limit was 40.
I think we should talk seriously about removing +/- as a stat. Now I know we all really like this 2:1 skater to goalie ratio we have, so here are some alternatives.
Blocked Shots
The pros and cons of blocked shots are that they boost defensemen too much. Forwards who excel in blocked shots generally aren't standard fantasy performers, but again, that is a pro or a con depending on perspective.
Shorthanded Points
The pro is that this category is something that isn't really represented too well currently (and short handed play is very important in hockey), but the con is that SHP are just as if not more sparse than GWG, and we got rid of GWG for a reason.
Split PPP into PPG and PPA
The pro is that it splits a category with enough volume into more discrete stats (both also with enough volume), but the con is that it increases redundancy on scoring.
The other alternatives aren't really too appealing to me, but if there is something I missed please mention it.
I'm honestly ok with anything we decide...I just really want +/- gone. I really think now, after 3-4 years of our keeper league, that keeping +/- is worse than any of those 3 options.
edit: also, side note for Synre
We only have 30 moves this year? Is that a holdover from a shortened lock out season or have we always had only 30?
Fsr I always thought a full season's limit was 40.
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SHP is even worse than +/-, it's like the shutout category for goalies.
I think we just have to accept that most categories are terrible. I don't like any of the suggested replacements any better than +/-.
My thoughts on your suggested categories:
SHP are far too rare and it will just be another category that is a completely random victory from week to week like +/-. I would be fine if somebody wanted to use Special Teams Points as one category (PPP+SHP) even though it isn't possible in Yahoo.
Blocked Shots are boring and already ruin real life hockey enough. I feel like this link should give enough evidence for it not being a category: http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/player/_/stat/defensive/sort/blockedShots (Hint: Boyd Gordon is the only forward in the top 100) Like I said above, I'd be fine with a combination category here (Hits+BS)
Other rambling thoughts on categories we already have and how pointless most of them are:
GAA gets completely skewed when your team is stupid and takes a lot of penalties. Sometimes the goalie plays a great game and gives up 4-5 goals because his team shot the puck over the glass 5 times in a game.
W are completely arbitrary and dependent upon the entire team's performance
SV% is probably the best stat we have for goalies, but we obviously have to have more than 1 goalie category, so whatever.
It's kind of funny that PPP and +/- are both categories since they basically contradict each other. It's also funny that they are categories since you can't be good at either of them without having good numbers at G/A to begin with. In the end if you won G and A then you probably swept everything else because of that. They are just stats that lead to compounding category wins.
High SOG = More chances for G and A = More chances for high +/- and PPP = You probably won or lost 4 or 5 categories based off of 1 or 2 categories.
High SV% = High GAA = W = You probably saved most shots and gave up a small number of goals and gave your team an extremely high chance to get a win so you won 3 categories based off of 1.
I'm clearly defending +/- because of my elite ranking in that category: http://hockey.fantasysports.yahoo.com/hockey/4707/headtoheadstats?pt=P&type=stats&sort=4
My thoughts on your suggested categories:
SHP are far too rare and it will just be another category that is a completely random victory from week to week like +/-. I would be fine if somebody wanted to use Special Teams Points as one category (PPP+SHP) even though it isn't possible in Yahoo.
Blocked Shots are boring and already ruin real life hockey enough. I feel like this link should give enough evidence for it not being a category: http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/player/_/stat/defensive/sort/blockedShots (Hint: Boyd Gordon is the only forward in the top 100) Like I said above, I'd be fine with a combination category here (Hits+BS)
Other rambling thoughts on categories we already have and how pointless most of them are:
GAA gets completely skewed when your team is stupid and takes a lot of penalties. Sometimes the goalie plays a great game and gives up 4-5 goals because his team shot the puck over the glass 5 times in a game.
W are completely arbitrary and dependent upon the entire team's performance
SV% is probably the best stat we have for goalies, but we obviously have to have more than 1 goalie category, so whatever.
It's kind of funny that PPP and +/- are both categories since they basically contradict each other. It's also funny that they are categories since you can't be good at either of them without having good numbers at G/A to begin with. In the end if you won G and A then you probably swept everything else because of that. They are just stats that lead to compounding category wins.
High SOG = More chances for G and A = More chances for high +/- and PPP = You probably won or lost 4 or 5 categories based off of 1 or 2 categories.
High SV% = High GAA = W = You probably saved most shots and gave up a small number of goals and gave your team an extremely high chance to get a win so you won 3 categories based off of 1.
I'm clearly defending +/- because of my elite ranking in that category: http://hockey.fantasysports.yahoo.com/hockey/4707/headtoheadstats?pt=P&type=stats&sort=4
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+/- is fine. sure it fluctuates week to week but ive always considered "does player x play on a good team" as part of my decision making criteria and I think it's both valid and addressed well through +/-
Not only that but most of the alternatives are downright horrendous. Justin's link takes care of blocks, SHP way too spares, PPG/PPA is way too thin, most weeks people don't even crack 10 ppp so how is breaking that further into 2 reasonable (also coming from the guy who leads ppp by a landslide).
+/- isn't so random that there's no pattern to it, there are guys that over their careers are consistent pluses or consistent minuses. The week to week fluctuations of that don't bother me as much. Let's keep it.
Not only that but most of the alternatives are downright horrendous. Justin's link takes care of blocks, SHP way too spares, PPG/PPA is way too thin, most weeks people don't even crack 10 ppp so how is breaking that further into 2 reasonable (also coming from the guy who leads ppp by a landslide).
+/- isn't so random that there's no pattern to it, there are guys that over their careers are consistent pluses or consistent minuses. The week to week fluctuations of that don't bother me as much. Let's keep it.
I like the idea of having a defensemen only stat (goalies have 3) because forwards score higher in all other offensive categories. I would love blocked shots over +/- but I know this isn't a popular opinion.
I don't feel SHG work and I really hate the idea of splitting PP into two. I'd rather keep +/- over those options.
I don't feel SHG work and I really hate the idea of splitting PP into two. I'd rather keep +/- over those options.
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I would side with Vineon on the blocked shot department, even though I am usually only running three defenseman only. IF we were to replace +/- I believe it should be with this stat. However not oppossed to keeping +/-; it's random but atleast it has some value for some players.
+/- is fine. it varies week to week but so does every other stat.
blocks? ehh... that's literally asking everyone to plug a roster slot with a dman that does nothing else. at least with hits you can get that stat from all positions. i personally like the current state of the defenseman position in our league.
shorthanded points are too sporadic. this is part of the reasoning for why shutouts were removed.
i'd be mildly ok with splitting ppp up into ppg and ppa but +/- is actually a check against players that are prolific on the pp (see: ovechkin, alex). we'd be giving those players a boost in some way and devaluing players that can score 5 on 5. power play skaters already score well, dedicating 2 stats to that just helps them.
blocks? ehh... that's literally asking everyone to plug a roster slot with a dman that does nothing else. at least with hits you can get that stat from all positions. i personally like the current state of the defenseman position in our league.
shorthanded points are too sporadic. this is part of the reasoning for why shutouts were removed.
i'd be mildly ok with splitting ppp up into ppg and ppa but +/- is actually a check against players that are prolific on the pp (see: ovechkin, alex). we'd be giving those players a boost in some way and devaluing players that can score 5 on 5. power play skaters already score well, dedicating 2 stats to that just helps them.
in another topic
I noticed that people were saying the league had become a bit stale, due partially to static-ish teams due to the higher # of keepers.
Ignoring how much of an advantage this would give bitchass gr33n (crosby / ovechkin / landeskog / weber / price keeper lol...), should we consider dropping the number of keepers to something like just 1 per position?
One of the issues this year is the bottom teams stockpiling 4 or 5 goalies and essentially giving up on the year just to hopefully get a future developed goalie...while this is certainly a viable strategy, I think I'd prefer as competitive a league year in and year out.
With 1 keeper per position we only get 12 kept goalies max, which leaves enough solid goalies for us to fight over in auction, which should hopefully reduce the absolute necessity to stockpile from the beginning (if you can only keep 1, it reduces the necessity to do so).
So drop # of keepers?
About the opposite direction and increasing the #, I'm not too sure how much we want to emphasize long term development in the league considering it isn't a sure shot that we'll continue it for a long time anyway...
Synre Justin8649 Carl Vineon BlueCookies Jackal CaptainKishimoto gr33n Psycho
would like to hl wer / pookar as well but forget their usernames
I noticed that people were saying the league had become a bit stale, due partially to static-ish teams due to the higher # of keepers.
Ignoring how much of an advantage this would give bitchass gr33n (crosby / ovechkin / landeskog / weber / price keeper lol...), should we consider dropping the number of keepers to something like just 1 per position?
One of the issues this year is the bottom teams stockpiling 4 or 5 goalies and essentially giving up on the year just to hopefully get a future developed goalie...while this is certainly a viable strategy, I think I'd prefer as competitive a league year in and year out.
With 1 keeper per position we only get 12 kept goalies max, which leaves enough solid goalies for us to fight over in auction, which should hopefully reduce the absolute necessity to stockpile from the beginning (if you can only keep 1, it reduces the necessity to do so).
So drop # of keepers?
About the opposite direction and increasing the #, I'm not too sure how much we want to emphasize long term development in the league considering it isn't a sure shot that we'll continue it for a long time anyway...
Synre Justin8649 Carl Vineon BlueCookies Jackal CaptainKishimoto gr33n Psycho
would like to hl wer / pookar as well but forget their usernames
I'm fine with everything the way it is. A few of us have made several trades over the past few seasons knowing the rules we have. It doesn't seem fair to suddenly reduce the number of keepers. Especially since some people have done some major deconsolidating (shut up spellcheck thats a word) in order to have 6 really good keepers instead of a few amazing keepers.
Don't be mad just because Holtby sucks. My strategy has been to only keep 1 goalie and I've still been able to find serviceable goalies every season.
Don't be mad just because Holtby sucks. My strategy has been to only keep 1 goalie and I've still been able to find serviceable goalies every season.
Teams are static because nobody is willing to do anything and make a trade. This is partially because everyone doesn't want to get ripped off (we've seen some lopsided exchanges over the years) so people are gun-shy unless it's a no brainer sure thing (I'm guilty of this, too). And this is partially because we don't have enough keepers. If the only way to improve your team was to make trades because there really wasn't much of a draft, I think you'd see a little bit more movement. Or you'd see people quitting and we'd scrap the whole thing because it's too much of an investment to fix a team. One of the two. What's happening now is that people are "Edmontoning it" and waiting until next year hoping their top players are just as good or better and that they can find a way to supplement that talent with better players. And why wouldn't they in our league because you can get regularly rostered players at the draft for free - no compromises or exchanges required.
I think dropping the amount of keepers won't really change much. The 3 extra players we hold now aren't what's making the league stationary. Taking gr33n as an example since you did, he's going to have even less incentive to move any of his keepers going forward if we only keep 5. If his depth is bad, like it is this year actually, what's the motivation for him to make any trades to fix it when he could feasibly do what the bottom teams are doing now and just "wait til next year". He can just reset in 2014-2015 with still the best C, best RW and a top 5 goalie. Teams will still be static, maybe less players will be the same year to year on teams, but the important ones aren't going anywhere. You're still going to (gladly, I might add) stare at Rask's 2 GAA and 920 sv% year in and year out, Aldaron :P
Funny enough, the goalie thing to me is actually the least of the problems. Nobody is forcing anyone to keep 2 goalies year to year and you can always trade with those teams that are hoarding goalies in season. In fact, that's what the hoarders want! Need a better goalie? Trade with one of these teams. And then there are always, always injuries, slumps, rookies coming out of nowhere, etc. from season to season so there's opportunity to get goalies throughout the year. Goalie is a pretty volatile position long term (examples: Mike Smith randomly good for a season, AHL goalie still being kept year to year even though he's supposed to be the next can't miss prospect) so I'm questioning whether keeping 2 is even a good idea at all when, again, you can reset at the draft in a year for free.
To your point, long term development shouldn't be a focus of this league. Even though we keep players, the focus IMO should always be short term. Ideally, everyone should be beefing up to win this year if they have a realistic shot at doing so. Everyone else should be doing things now to be in that position in a year. Waiting 5 years for a fantasy team to develop is way, way too long. I think you see people hoarding players at the bottom because they're actually, you know, trying to execute the "get better for next year" part by creating a market for a position and dealing from a strength. But nobody bites. Goes back to trading again...
Going away from what we agreed on kind of sucks for the people who did it right, did make moves to win, and understood how to play within the ruleset. If you really want variation, then let's drop the whole keeper aspect and start from scratch with a yearly league. Or come to some sort of term limits on keepers. Because a Crosby, a Rask, a Stamkos, etc aren't likely switching teams any time soon...
I think dropping the amount of keepers won't really change much. The 3 extra players we hold now aren't what's making the league stationary. Taking gr33n as an example since you did, he's going to have even less incentive to move any of his keepers going forward if we only keep 5. If his depth is bad, like it is this year actually, what's the motivation for him to make any trades to fix it when he could feasibly do what the bottom teams are doing now and just "wait til next year". He can just reset in 2014-2015 with still the best C, best RW and a top 5 goalie. Teams will still be static, maybe less players will be the same year to year on teams, but the important ones aren't going anywhere. You're still going to (gladly, I might add) stare at Rask's 2 GAA and 920 sv% year in and year out, Aldaron :P
Funny enough, the goalie thing to me is actually the least of the problems. Nobody is forcing anyone to keep 2 goalies year to year and you can always trade with those teams that are hoarding goalies in season. In fact, that's what the hoarders want! Need a better goalie? Trade with one of these teams. And then there are always, always injuries, slumps, rookies coming out of nowhere, etc. from season to season so there's opportunity to get goalies throughout the year. Goalie is a pretty volatile position long term (examples: Mike Smith randomly good for a season, AHL goalie still being kept year to year even though he's supposed to be the next can't miss prospect) so I'm questioning whether keeping 2 is even a good idea at all when, again, you can reset at the draft in a year for free.
To your point, long term development shouldn't be a focus of this league. Even though we keep players, the focus IMO should always be short term. Ideally, everyone should be beefing up to win this year if they have a realistic shot at doing so. Everyone else should be doing things now to be in that position in a year. Waiting 5 years for a fantasy team to develop is way, way too long. I think you see people hoarding players at the bottom because they're actually, you know, trying to execute the "get better for next year" part by creating a market for a position and dealing from a strength. But nobody bites. Goes back to trading again...
Going away from what we agreed on kind of sucks for the people who did it right, did make moves to win, and understood how to play within the ruleset. If you really want variation, then let's drop the whole keeper aspect and start from scratch with a yearly league. Or come to some sort of term limits on keepers. Because a Crosby, a Rask, a Stamkos, etc aren't likely switching teams any time soon...
Overall fantasy performance since we started keeper league in 2010, will include both final and regular season standings:
(2010 / 2011 / 2012 / 2013)
I asterisked 2012 because as much as we all delight in Justin's fantasy misery, that was a whole different level of bs and justin should have won lol.
Final -
Carl - 1 / 6 / 1* / 4 average: 3
Aldaron - 2 / 3 / 4 / 3 average: 3
Synre - 8 / 1 / 3 / 5 average: 4.25
Justin8649 - 4 / 12 / 2* / 2 average: 5
CaptainKishimoto - 3 / 2 / 8 / 9 average: 5.5
gr33n - 9 / 8 / 12 / 1 average: 7.5
Vineon - 5 / 5 / 10 / 12 average: 8
gouki / pookar - 12 / 9 / 5 / 6 average: 8
wer - 11 / 7 / 6 / 8 average: 8
psycho - 7 / 11 / 7 / 7 average: 8
Jackal - 10 / 4 / 9 / 10 average: 8.25
zerowing / BlueCookies - 6 / 10 / 11 / 11 average: 9.5
Regular Season -
Aldaron - 3 / 1 / 2 / 2 average: 2
Carl - 4 / 3 / 4 / 5 average: 4
Justin8649 - 1 / 11 / 3 / 1 average: 4
Synre - 8 / 4 / 1 / 4 average: 4.25
CaptainKishimoto - 2 / 2 / 7 / 7 average: 4.5
gr33n - 10 / 7 / 9 / 3 average: 7.25
gouki / pookar - 11 / 8 / 6 / 6 average: 7.75
Vineon - 5 / 5 / 10 / 12 average: 8
wer - 9 / 12 / 5 / 8 average: 8.5
psycho -7 / 9 / 8 / 11 average: 8.75
zerowing / BlueCookies - 6 / 10 / 11 / 10 average: 9.25
Jackal - 12 / 6 / 12 / 9 average: 9.75
random observations...
- this is clearly a top heavy league, with me / synre / carl / justin owning it and random people occasionally doing well (kishi first two years, green this year). hopefully that changes next year with green's win + amazing keepers and ray finally having as good a keeper 8 as anyone else
-psycho is king of the consolation bracket, though I don't really get why he is never in playoffs as his keepers aren't even that bad
- vineon i am afraid is doomed to suck for a bit, but as long as he's active i dont mind too much
- i am this league's version of the san jose sharks
- carl and i are the only people to make playoffs every year, though my 20/20 hindsight wants to say synre has consistently the most solid teams year in and year out
- carl is also the only one among the playoff regulars to do better in playoffs than regular season...guess his teams are built for playoffs better :P
- kishi / ray / green should all have the potential to rise to the main top 4 level for the next few years, so thats at least a good solid 7
- pookar / psycho / jackal have good enough keepers to be competitive depending on draft / in season moves
- i have no idea how vineon / wer stay competitive for the next 2 or 3 years, but i guess we'll see
not sure what we want to make of our league, but just laying out the results so you guys can make your own observations
(2010 / 2011 / 2012 / 2013)
I asterisked 2012 because as much as we all delight in Justin's fantasy misery, that was a whole different level of bs and justin should have won lol.
Final -
Carl - 1 / 6 / 1* / 4 average: 3
Aldaron - 2 / 3 / 4 / 3 average: 3
Synre - 8 / 1 / 3 / 5 average: 4.25
Justin8649 - 4 / 12 / 2* / 2 average: 5
CaptainKishimoto - 3 / 2 / 8 / 9 average: 5.5
gr33n - 9 / 8 / 12 / 1 average: 7.5
Vineon - 5 / 5 / 10 / 12 average: 8
gouki / pookar - 12 / 9 / 5 / 6 average: 8
wer - 11 / 7 / 6 / 8 average: 8
psycho - 7 / 11 / 7 / 7 average: 8
Jackal - 10 / 4 / 9 / 10 average: 8.25
zerowing / BlueCookies - 6 / 10 / 11 / 11 average: 9.5
Regular Season -
Aldaron - 3 / 1 / 2 / 2 average: 2
Carl - 4 / 3 / 4 / 5 average: 4
Justin8649 - 1 / 11 / 3 / 1 average: 4
Synre - 8 / 4 / 1 / 4 average: 4.25
CaptainKishimoto - 2 / 2 / 7 / 7 average: 4.5
gr33n - 10 / 7 / 9 / 3 average: 7.25
gouki / pookar - 11 / 8 / 6 / 6 average: 7.75
Vineon - 5 / 5 / 10 / 12 average: 8
wer - 9 / 12 / 5 / 8 average: 8.5
psycho -7 / 9 / 8 / 11 average: 8.75
zerowing / BlueCookies - 6 / 10 / 11 / 10 average: 9.25
Jackal - 12 / 6 / 12 / 9 average: 9.75
random observations...
- this is clearly a top heavy league, with me / synre / carl / justin owning it and random people occasionally doing well (kishi first two years, green this year). hopefully that changes next year with green's win + amazing keepers and ray finally having as good a keeper 8 as anyone else
-psycho is king of the consolation bracket, though I don't really get why he is never in playoffs as his keepers aren't even that bad
- vineon i am afraid is doomed to suck for a bit, but as long as he's active i dont mind too much
- i am this league's version of the san jose sharks
- carl and i are the only people to make playoffs every year, though my 20/20 hindsight wants to say synre has consistently the most solid teams year in and year out
- carl is also the only one among the playoff regulars to do better in playoffs than regular season...guess his teams are built for playoffs better :P
- kishi / ray / green should all have the potential to rise to the main top 4 level for the next few years, so thats at least a good solid 7
- pookar / psycho / jackal have good enough keepers to be competitive depending on draft / in season moves
- i have no idea how vineon / wer stay competitive for the next 2 or 3 years, but i guess we'll see
not sure what we want to make of our league, but just laying out the results so you guys can make your own observations
I don't really care what we do. Whatever the majority of the league wants is fine with me. I'm indifferent towards restarting/modifying/whatever, but I know it wouldn't be fair to other people.
I like how I basically went from first to last to first.
I like how I basically went from first to last to first.
I'm pretty indifferent here -- I like the league in the sense that because you guys are so much better than even the average money league it keeps me sharp, but I don't enjoy this league as much as I used to. I guess it is partially because the format has gotten boring and partially because I don't really talk to anyone in the league but Ray, pookar, and Kaleb as much as I used to. I'm kind of open to whatever people might want to do to liven things up. Activity is still a thing too for Kaleb in particular, I guess. I don't have very strong feelings, I'm not sure how I would make this something that is still as interesting to me as playing for cash is.