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Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

So I think that despite having numerous strengths, Gen 4 Cresselia is a pokemon with many big issues that shouldn’t be banned, at least with the current philosophy we have on gen 4 now.

My main issue with this suspect is how people see 1 new Cresselia set and are currently overreacting. Gen 4 is definitely a slow moving generation, especially compared to something like Gen 5 that has bans and trends all the time. So once you see Cresselia beating Tyranitar, and this set threatening teams, what gen 4 players should be doing is adapting. Adapting to this set is ridiculously easy with Tyranitar. There’s many ways to do it. The rise of this specs Cresselia set may make defensive chople Tyranitar less common and that’s fine. A poke adapted, now you adapt back and from here I don’t see a way Cresselia can consistently win if many Tyranitars start adapting, especially in different ways. It’s understood by many gen 4 players that Tyranitar keeps many things in the tier in check, and this is no different.

There’s also other ways to beat Cresselia. Here’s a Heatran set I quickly made in the 1v1pl that completely shuts down Cresselia.
Heatran @ Mail
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 36 Spe or more, just outspeed CM Cress
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Overheat
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power

Many Steel and Ghost-types (pokes that are not Tyranitar) can do the same with different sets. Something like Metagross spamming meteor mash and specs rotom spamming shadow ball will almost always inevitably lead to a win. Other pokes can make similar sets with mail and moves to make sure CM Cress will not win.

And that leads to another issue of Cresselia. Bulkier stall sets that use Calm Mind need a lot of RNG to go their way. Crits are quite common and very punishing in Gen 4. Rest Cresselia is a sitting duck for turn after turn, and unlike a poke like Mega Slowbro in later generations, Gen 4 Cresselia is very much crit fodder, especially while sleeping. And moonlight just loses to something like Toxic. One more flaw of Cresselia is that Trick in gen 4 is kind of trash. You get locked into trick if you trick against another choiced poke. This means Scarf Cresselia is very unreliable vs pokes with multiple sets, which is a lot of the tier. Zapdos, Shaymin, Raikou, Aerodactyl, and others. Trick also just loses to the very common mail.
Here was one of my last Gen 4 games, where Cresselia loses to one of many chances to get haxed: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen41v1-1424347937-hds9dzieq1992xe17ckunvawjcq6v04pw

Also, I am not sure we will enjoy a metagame without Cresselia. Things like Zapdos, Raikou, and Dragonite may get really, really good, and possibly better than Cresselia is right now considering Cress' numerous flaws.

Overall I think people need to not get too impressed with Specs Cress. I believe the meta can easily adapt to this new set. In general, Cress needs too much to go its way when it comes to sets and RNG to be a broken poke that should be banned. It reminds me of Sableye in Gen 5, but just a bit better, and I do not support the ban of either.

PA said:
Arguments against a Cresselia ban:
  • Cresselia, while having very little counters, the counters it does have remain equally as effective in dealing with it.
  • The popularity of Cresselia galvanizes creativity and thinking out of the box, allowing new sets and Pokemon to be born as a result.
Click to expand...
Can you put better sample arguments in this? The first point makes no sense at all and the second is an argument nobody is and should be using.

Onto Gen 5

I do not really care about Mew. It's more of a theoretical threat and I do not think its versatility has been shown off enough in tournaments, from what I have seen at least.

Jirachi is not only uncompetitive because of the large amount of matchups where you only need a few flinches to win, but it also has a set or two that not only does not need flinches, but beats a lot of Scarf's counterplay (Specs). Specs also has hax potential with Serene Grace Flash Cannon, Psychic, Shadow Ball & Thunderbolt vs slower stuff. The best counterplay to Jirachi is Fire-types, and that part reminds me of SwSh Genesect. People seem to think that Electric-types are really good vs Jirachi, but that's just not true.

I think Jirachi and Mew both are not as good in practice as on paper, but maybe I am just speaking for myself. Despite this, I support a Jirachi and Mew ban if that is what it takes to improve the tier. I also think unbanning Victini is a possibility. Maybe we survey the Gen 5 players and ask if they prefer the Victini metagame? A poll could see if people would want Victini metagame, current metagame, or one with bans. I never really played Victini meta besides some test games, so I would not really know.
 
Trashuny said:
My main issue with this suspect is how people see 1 new Cresselia set and are currently overreacting. Gen 4 is definitely a slow moving generation, especially compared to something like Gen 5 that has bans and trends all the time. So once you see Cresselia beating Tyranitar, and this set threatening teams, what gen 4 players should be doing is adapting. Adapting to this set is ridiculously easy with Tyranitar. There’s many ways to do it. The rise of this specs Cresselia set may make defensive chople Tyranitar less common and that’s fine. A poke adapted, now you adapt back and from here I don’t see a way Cresselia can consistently win if many Tyranitars start adapting, especially in different ways. It’s understood by many gen 4 players that Tyranitar keeps many things in the tier in check, and this is no different.

Bulkier stall sets that use Calm Mind need a lot of RNG to go their way. Crits are quite common and very punishing in Gen 4. Rest Cresselia is a sitting duck for turn after turn, and unlike a poke like Mega Slowbro in later generations, Gen 4 Cresselia is very much crit fodder, especially while sleeping. And moonlight just loses to something like Toxic. One more flaw of Cresselia is that Trick in gen 4 is kind of trash. You get locked into trick if you trick against another choiced poke. This means Scarf Cresselia is very unreliable vs pokes with multiple sets, which is a lot of the tier. Zapdos, Shaymin, Raikou, Aerodactyl, and others. Trick also just loses to the very common mail.

Here was one of my last Gen 4 games, where Cresselia loses to one of many chances to get haxed: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen41v1-1424347937-hds9dzieq1992xe17ckunvawjcq6v04pw

Also, I am not sure we will enjoy a metagame without Cresselia. Things like Zapdos, Raikou, and Dragonite may get really, really good, and possibly better than Cresselia is right now considering Cress' numerous flaws.

Overall I think people need to not get too impressed with Specs Cress. I believe the meta can easily adapt to this new set. In general, Cress needs too much to go its way when it comes to sets and RNG to be a broken poke that should be banned. It reminds me of Sableye in Gen 5, but just a bit better, and I do not support the ban of either.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, you, my friend, are seriously downplaying what Cresselia is capable of.

Cresselia definitely has answers: let's get that right. However, the biggest issue is the set guessing that you have to take into consideration when you're building against Cresselia without sacrificing the team's overall solidity in answering other top metagame threats, which also includes Shaymin and Tyranitar. One wrong guess on the opposing Cresselia's set and it will cost you a game, or an entire match.

It's not that we're overreacting because of the evolution of one set; it's more of "we can add this set to the list of things everyone should watch out for"; especially with the state of the DPP 1v1 metagame, players have to keep adapting to all the trends, and the cycle is more vicious than you think it is. I can just simply solve all those problems by fine-tuning my Specs Cresselia set designed to deal with most of the threats and then couple it with some of the teammates worth covering and call it a day. This is one of the reasons why I actually love using this Pokemon, and one of the reasons why I'm growing more paranoid in facing this Pokemon someday.


Trashuny said:
There’s also other ways to beat Cresselia. Here’s a Heatran set I quickly made in the 1v1pl that completely shuts down Cresselia.
Heatran @ Mail
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 36 Spe or more, just outspeed CM Cress
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Overheat
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power

Many Steel and Ghost-types (pokes that are not Tyranitar) can do the same with different sets. Something like Metagross spamming meteor mash and specs rotom spamming shadow ball will almost always inevitably lead to a win. Other pokes can make similar sets with mail and moves to make sure CM Cress will not win.
Click to expand...

Heatran requires this investment: 216 HP / 216 SpA / 76 Spe Modest and needs Choice Specs in order to outrun and outdo (no Speed) Cresselia that way. The 216 HP EV investment is meant to survive Specs HP Ground (but has some chances to OHKO if it's 248 SpA instead of 208 SpA), which will definitely pack that sheet. Next question. No more? Okay. Good night.
 
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This trend of endlessly banning Pokemon one after the other when people are unsatisfied with the metagame is running old, between Jirachi, Mew, Cresselia and whichever other shit is gonna pop up in the future. I've seen post after post of ban this, ban that, with very little reasoning other than "strain on the builder" or whatever the fuck people have been able to come up with. Have the definitions of "broken" and "uncompetitive" been rewritten? Since when is it enough to be a terrible builder and player to push for the ban of a Pokemon that has nothing broken about it. For ages I've used and played and built with and both against Cresselia and it's always been quite simple to deal with, whichever set it might be. I'ts never even crossed my mind that it could be S- tier, let alone be banned, that is ridiculous. Do people forget the meaning of the word centralization? Or do they expect a metagame to have no best mon in the tier?
A lot of scrambled thoughts, so let's go step by step.
:cresselia:
Cresselia is a Pokemon that has 3 sets: Specs Scarf Stall. It is not an otherworldly amount of sets, I could argue 90% of mons above B on the VR have 3 or more sets. The second thing about Cresselia's sets, that actively counterpoints at its ban, is that they're very straightforward and have little to no changes. Scarf and Stall at the very least always run the same moves, and are limited to a certain set of EVs that dont change much of the outcome. Specs is a bit more customazible but it is strictly locked to the three main moves, and can change to a random hidden power that changes at most 1 or 2 matchups and is quite forced to run close to max special attack to have an acceptable damage output, leaving not that much alleyway to the rest of the EVs.
The main point that I see is that the Cresselia sets simply beat too many things; let's see this document and point out some flaws:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 152 HP / 72 SpD Cresselia: 202-238 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
1a. specs shaymin wins vs specs w/o drops
252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 144-169 (32.4 - 38%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO
1b. scarf shaymin wins vs scarf w/o drops
2. aerodactyl needs a single double protect to beat grass knot cresselia, which is a 50% chance in DPP.

Other than that, you only have like 10 fucking Pokemon on that sheet to demonstrate Cresselia counters, it doesnt even show in that sheet that your newly found broken specs cresselia set loses the usually winning MUs like Suicune, CB/Sub Heracross, Sceptile, Countercoat Pert, Ambipom, Arcanine, and how the supposedly "can cheese everything" cresselia can never beat pokemon like Rotoms, Weavile, Bronzong, Clefable and others.
It's a good Pokemon that found a new decent set, I'm not trying to undersell it or anything, it just means the usually broken Tyranitar needs to run slightly different EVs, that Metagross might run CB more often, that the already-unviable Scizor will thankfully be less used, and others. It definitely has its hard counters and switching between sets gives up tons of valuable MUs, no matter which one you run

Now onto the second section: strain in the builder.
Words that I've seen thrown around aimlessly without good building knowledge or fundamental knowledge of the tier. DPP is a tier that has been plagued by setguessing disasters ever since the day it was born; the insane reduction in power compared to other generations due to the extended banlist: pokemon like Porygon-Z, Latios, Latias, Garchomp, Salamence, Manaphy, Mew having been banned since the beginning make for a way less strong metagame and make the metagame extremely powercrept
Calcs become extremely precise, speed tiers become very difficult to determine due to most mons not investing fully in speed, thus sets with resist berries or choice items and added creep can take advantage of this fact and dominate. One of the examples is Kingdra, a Pokemon with horrible stats and an ok movepool that has been able to be at the top of the metagame for ages thanks to its typing that leaves only one type weakness: dragon types (which are almost all banned). Due to the nature of the metagame, most of the pokemon are much weaker compared to how bulky they are, and thus rely on super-effective mons to kill Pokemon, sometimes failing (ex: machamp sometimes losing to tyranitar and kingdra almost always losing to hippowdon). What conclusion am I trying to reach with this?
The conclusion is that DPP as a metagame, due to the nature of its Pokemon and the itempool and movepool, is inherently a metagame that is rooted by a setguessing issue, where even simple Pokemon like Infernape can run a myriad of sets from Band to Scarf to Shuca to Sub Petaya to Sub Liechi to Custap, to Payapa Berry, making it very difficult to know which Pokemon on your team accurately beats it, to the point where even Specs Cresselia can lose to a well timed Payapa Nasty Plot Infernape. This is a problem that is omniprevalent and Cresselia is one of the actually lowest offenders and actually one of the most easy to discern at team preview, with how it only has 3 sets (one of which I've never even seen run in tournament in my life) that beat completely and entirely different things. If you aren't able to cover Cresselia properly by either covering all sets with one mon (trivially easy there's plenty of mons that do that and that are frequently used) or multiple mons for different sets (also quite simple without even trying) then I am sorry to say that is the fault of a lack in building or playing competence, and the simple solution is to learn to play.

DPP is in a dire terrible state right now and continuosuly going through a cycle of banning the best mon in the tier is just gonna make it worse and worse and worse. The best two Pokemon above Cresselia anyway are Tyranitar and Shaymin, both of which I'm sure I'll hear of to be put on the chopping block, the latter soon enough and the former after the latter has been banned. At this point it seems like a desperate attempt for people to fix a hole in the wall by removing the wall altogether. I am considering creating and running a project of an alternative DPP 1v1 metagame with a different, less banhappy version, by allowing in the metagame mons that have not been tried before and seeing how the metagame fares. I feel like it is a simply better solution to whatever the fuck has been going on with dpp bans ever since snorlax, and should be considered as an alternative route for the future of this tremendous metagame.

In the upcoming vote, assuming I'll be allowed to participate (which would make sense for me to be), I will be voting Do Not Ban on Cresselia, and I invite you all to do the same

I was initially gonna share a few comments on Jirachi and Mew too but it's a similar concept to trying to solve a problem that isnt fixable, or simply isnt there. DEG jirachi is not even a good Pokemon stop larping, gn.
 
STABLE said:
This trend of endlessly banning Pokemon one after the other when people are unsatisfied with the metagame is running old, between Jirachi, Mew, Cresselia and whichever other shit is gonna pop up in the future.
Click to expand...
Your introduction is already inherently flawed. This was the same argument brought up to combat the ban-happy nature of SS, but SS has finally reached a stable state, rendering this type of logic null. BW has also reached a less restricting state than the previous Kyub Dnite meta as a result of the ban chain.
 
ORAS VR Post

Yo I’ve been meaning to post my thoughts on ORAS. I think the tier has seen a fair amount of change through people who actively play the tier and I’d like to see the VR reflect that. I also have some opinions I’d like to share on the tier.

:lopunny-mega: A -> A+

Megalop has seen an influx of usage over the year and for good reason. It’s deceptively versatile allowing it to tailor its sets to a bunch of threats while still retaining the great Fake Out+Giga Impact combo. Encore and Elemental Punches are great fourth moves for it and while it won’t 3-0 often it’s such a good mon for building.

:togekiss: A- -> B+

Togekiss is becoming progressively worse as time passes. SubZard is becoming more and more common; as well, SubZard is generally agreed to be the best set. It doesn’t fare well vs many common mons, it’s not consistent, and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to justify twave>scarf. Of course it’s not that bad because it’s toge in 1v1 but it fell off (+ratio)

:snorlax: B+ -> B-/B

Speaking of inconsistent, Lax is not great at anything in particular. It has a lot of “potential” but it has shown to be consistently underwhelming. BD Custap is fineeeeeee but the amount of 50/50s it’s prone to is so annoying for the low return especially when it wants 10 moveslots. You can run Counter cheese or CB I GUESS but no one has been successful with either set. I think attempting to build with Lax will show more than anything else its shortcomings.

:aggron mega: B -> B+

This may be a personal thing but usually beating Zards/opposing steels/mgard etc in the same slot is sooooooo nice. That being said, its speed is a pretty notable shortcoming and it doesn’t cover much outside of the top tiers which is what holds it back from being great imo. Super underrated.

:ampharos mega: B -> C+/C

Why the fuck is 2021 mega fabio this high. It’s quite quirky that its triple is one of the better triples but quirky shouldn’t be the same tier as actually decent picks.

:landorus: B -> B+

It’s like its Therian counterpart that trades its 100% zard mu for speed and special attack. I think it carves out its own good niche. I’m a particular fan of sub ep psy rock slide but you can make a lot work because it’s a landorus. Also it not being a 100% zard check for you may be a skill issue :100:

:sawk: B -> B+

Gilberto is the goat 3-0 fish. Not much else to say honestly, no one accounts for Gilberto anymore often leaving it with super good mus even if its core strengths aren’t that notable t b h

:Entei: C+ -> B-/B

Helmet gives it a pretty good role as a fire that beats Zard.

:lucario mega: C+ -> C-/D
:Manectric mega: C+ -> C-/D

These megas are simply not good. They don’t really have a sizable enough niche to justify on any serious team, the other mons in C+ may be dogass but at least they have a clear niche.

:audino mega: C- -> B+/A-

Ok ok ok hear me out. This is a pretty meteoric rise but holy shit this mon is actually so good. Initially assumed to be yet another derek shitmon that is a stall with some quirky unique trait, maudino has shown to actually have multiple quirks poggers. It’s a mega stall mon which blocks off trick tho what’s more important is that its typing actually changes between normal/mega allowing it to force stallbreakers like Hoopa-U/Volcanion to 50/50 it t1. It also has access to Lucky Chant making it consistent vs many attackers and letting it beat opposing stall (with help from Baby Doll Eyes.) Outside of Trick it just loses to anti-stall moves yeah but boo hoo you beat a fuck ton of attackers and all opposing stall. I recommend trying it out.

All the D mons are atrocious but that’s the point of the tier. Tho I would like to see Florges, Scolipede, and Shedninja unranked as I don’t like implying they have any minute niche.

thx for reading, if you didn’t know oras 1v1 is getting a ladder this month so hop on and get some games :]
 
BW 1v1 is suspect testing Mew.
:bw/mew:
See my previous post and DEG's post for more in detailed reasoning, but to tl;dr it here Mew is broken because it too good of matchups, set variety, and tech potential without overly significant opportunity cost, making it very difficult to beat reliably and set guess on preview. The rest of the council and I believe that banning Mew will make the metagame better, and having Mew around for PL would be a mistake.

The voting criteria for this suspect is 2+ wins in BW in the most recent World Cup of 1v1, Semifinals of the most recent BW 1v1 Cup, and BW council.
Sky of Doom
Jamez
XSTATIC COLD
torterraxx
Sanshokuinsumireko
Mubs
Trashuny
Itchyy
DEG
Freddy Kyogre
eblurb
PA
Potatochan
crucify
The suspect will go until Saturday, December 11th at 11:59pm GMT-6, or until a 60% supermajority has been reached.
 
aaand it got banned in record time probably shoulda just quickbanned
Voter list (14): Sky of Doom Jamez XSTATIC COLD torterraxx Sanshokuinsumireko Mubs Trashuny Itchyy DEG Freddy Kyogre eblurb PA Potatochan crucify

Ban (11): Jamez, crucify, Itchyy, Sanshokuinsumireko, Potatochan, DEG, Freddy Kyogre, Mubs, torterraxx, PA, Sky of Doom
Do Not Ban (2): XSTATIC COLD, Trashuny
Have not voted yet (1): eblurb
With 11 ban votes coming in the 60% supermajority has been reached and Mew has been banned from BW 1v1!

Tagging Kris to implement, thanks

since im here hop on the ORAS 1v1 ladder!!!! and we'll keep an eye on jirachi
 
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Interrupting your suspects to bring you ORAS updates.

-Removed Lancer from VR council due to inactivity, added crucify instead.
-VR Updates
12 / 6/ 2021 Changelog:

Rises
Lando-T: B+ ~> A-
Aggron-Mega: B ~> B+
Medicham-Mega: B- ~> B
Scizor-Mega: C ~> C+
Audino-Mega: C- ~> C+
Durant: C- ~> C
Rotom-Heat: C- ~> C
Excadrill: D ~> C-
Steelix-Mega: D ~> C-
Latios-Mega: UR ~> C+
Garchom-Mega: UR ~> B


Drops
Ampharos-Mega: B ~> B-
Donphan: B ~> B-
Jirachi: B ~> B-
Rhyperior: B ~> B-
Alakazam-Mega: B- ~> C+
Azumarill: B- ~> C+
Gastrodon: C ~> C-
Blissey: C- ~> D
Heracross: C- ~> D
Glalie-Mega: C- ~> D
Reuniclus: C ~> C-
 
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https://pokepast.es/971489d28ce0bac8

Custap (Sylveon) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Hyper Beam
- Hyper Voice
- Fake Tears


Haban Berry Toxic (Kyurem-Black) @ Haban Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 224 HP / 176 Def / 108 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Outrage
- Toxic
- Roost / Rest

Not an important thing but this mons can be eved more optimally using other ev spread like:

Sylveon @ Custap Berry
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 140 Def / 120 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Hyper Beam
- Hyper Voice
- Fake Tears

Haban Berry Toxic (Kyurem-Black) @ Haban Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 224 HP / 76 Def / 210 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Outrage
- Toxic
- Roost / Rest

In kyurem-b you only gain 1 extra point in one defense but in sylveon the diference is more relevant.
 
Sorry about the delay; computer doing computer things.... anyways!

The Result of the Suspect is in and Cresselia is here to stay with 6 ban votes and 10 do not ban votes hence not meeting the supermajority.
:bw/cresselia:

BanDo Not BanAbstain / Did not Vote
PA187 FanHCTC
EuphonosStableNeomon
DJ BreloominatiYamiItchyyyyyyyyyyyy
JabiruTrashunySoulwind
Elo BanditGym SocksMr.Mime Fan
JamezInkreativACII
CrucifyMorgan
CloseSynonimous
Vrji
Urfgurgle

As always some miscallaneous stuff:

As briefly mentioned by various users in different posts, the current DPP metagame is horrible and i agree with the sentiments argued by STABLE. The metagame is revolved around the big three: Tyranitar, Shaymin, and Cresselia. Shaymin will most likely be looked into before PL and the voting requirements will be changed slightly in order to make the voting as accurate as possible if deemed necessary to suspect test. More information about this will be mentioned on a later post.
 
Introducing Murman (MURMDOG) and Adam3560 (ADAM NUMBERS) to the ADV 1v1 Council!

ALSO WE ARE UNBANNING WOBBUFFET, WYNAUT, MR MIME, and SAND VEIL (which means Cacturne and Sandslash :D)

:rs/Wobbuffet: (this mon actually aint bad)

tagging Kris to impliment

ALSO i am taking submissions for the ADV 1v1 Sets Compendium 3.0 Update! PM me on discord LRXC#9555 with ur ideas or just lmk on PS when you are on, and we are still taking sample submissions

new VR, samples, and sets compendium will be out before Mid January

ADV is hype have a nice day
 
NOMMING HITMONTOP

:rs/hitmontop:

Hitmontop (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
Earthquake
Mach Punch
High Jump Kick
Hidden Power [Flying]/Bulk Up

Adv set comp 3.0 is coming out soon so I am nomming top. Earthquake into Mach punch beats Raikou btw. High Jump Kick is a given. Hp flying is here for heracross. (If they’re reversal, hp flying into Mach punch obviously wins, if you ain’t want to beat heracross, there is always bulk up. Intimidate is a holy ability to compensate for top’s bad defense. Another reason I like this mon is the 110 special defense so that you can beat Alakazam

Hitmontop (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 112 HP / 144 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Mach Punch
- High Jump Kick
- Hidden Power [Ghost]

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 112 HP / 252 SpD Hitmontop: 226-266 (84 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(You can go careful nature if you’re afraid of modest)

Hitmontop (M) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 112 HP / 144 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack
- High Jump Kick
- Hidden Power [Ghost]

Quick Attack is if you want to to be really Anti Sub Alakazam

A mon I think is worthy of the C tier caliber cause of its unique attributes compared to other fighting types, also a fighting type that can beat zam is cool

ADV IS HYPE!!!!
 
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ARTICUNO NOM

:rs/Articuno:
THE ARTIC ZONE (Articuno) @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 208 HP / 68 SpA / 176 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Reflect


An Adam3560 classic. It’s a mon that beats Zapdos and Sceptile, I think I don’t need to say much more tbh. The set above you beats Ursaring. (You have to use Blizzard to win) but if you want to beat spdef sceptile then fret not.

Articuno @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 84 HP / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Ice Beam
- Reflect
- Substitute

This heat set beats spdef sceptile with icy wins then spamming ice beam. 172 speed invade someone decides they want to use a 252 timid leech stall set so that you barely outspeed after one icy wind also 100% beta Ursaring without having to rely on Blizzard.

This is another C mon imo. Might even be C+. Beating Zapdos is huge for it as well as well as Spdef Sceptile which Regice can lose too most of the time. Yeah you can lose to mence which sucks for an ice type but rock slide can miss so who cares.
 
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Hello all,

The DPP 1v1 Council has voted to ban Shaymin from DPP 1v1 effective immediately.

:shaymin:

Shaymin has been one of the most fearsome threats even since Togekiss was still avaliable. Despite its weakness to common typings such as Fire and Flying, Shaymin has made up for this with so many different positive characteristics. For starters, it has access to Seed Flare, which functions as one of the devastating attacks in the game; the fact that it only needs one attacking move means that the other three can be just about anything Shaymin needs to function. Additionally, Shaymin has superb natural bulk, being able to withstand some strong neutral attacks comfortably, presenting many set-up and attacking possibilities that more fragile Pokemon would lack.

The most noteworthy application of Shaymin is the Substitute + Leech Seed variant, which has been making waves in the metagame recently. This set is menacing as it is challenging to kill, especially without super effective or boosted attacks, which is further evident with the lack of firepower in the tier, but also it is able to snowball out of control with just a little bit of extra bulk investment. While it is true that there are some reliable answers such as Registeel, Stall Aerodactyl, Scizor, Scarf Staraptor, and Clefable as well as some fringe options like Bronzong and Blissey. The fact of the matter is that not many others can consistently handle this Shaymin set despite it being a practical defensive presence to fit on to teams. This alone can be seen as restrictive, but it is just the tip of the iceberg for Shaymin.

Offensively, Choice Specs Shaymin takes advantage of the traits of Seed Flare especially well by using it as a foolproof way to break through defensive opposition. While a slew of bulky Pokemon are capable of withstanding multiple Seed Flare attacks such as Dragonite, Jirachi, Zapdos, Heatran, and Entei, not many of these Pokemon appreciate the coverage moves at its disposal such as Earth Power as well as Hidden Power Fire and Ice. Even Gyarados can often find itself victim to its coverage with Hidden Power Electric, covering Dragon Dance + Bounce sets in conjunction with Taunt which would typically have a good shot against most sets. In addition, Shaymin still has the option to run strong Grass STAB moves such as Grass Knot for better accuracy and the ability to break through stall Pressure users such as Aerodactyl. Other options such as Occa Berry and Choice Scarf are great for luring Pokemon like Infernape and Scarf Heracross. The recent playerbase tiering survey also reflected a widespread belief that Shaymin should be the subject of a quickban, with a clear majority of the overall responders believing this to have a positive effect on the current stalemate between the big theee.

Given how limited Shaymin’s counterplay is and how effective various, complimentary variants of Shaymin can be without much resistance faced in the metagame, Shaymin will be banned from DPP 1v1 effective immediately. Tagging Kris for the implementation.

ps: Euphonos is now also Co-Leader, make sure to congratulate him as well.
 
Before I start the post, I want to thank Adam3560 for the absolute blessing that is the ADV RESOURCES MEGAPOST.

THE ADV RESOURCES ULTRAPOST POST
By some unviable rando who likes ADV​

Rises:

:blissey: A- --> A
Blissey basically hard walls 90% of special attackers and with its huge HP stat, and with counter it's able to fight back against banded physical attackers that usually give it trouble(unless they are running anti-bliss shenanigans like dynamic punch). In conclusion, overweight egg is gaming.

:machamp: B+ --> A-
It's less defensively useful than hariyama and deals less damage compared to heracross BUT it has encore, which is a reason on its own. Encore all but guarantees a winning match up against most stall and poses serious problems to pokemon that rely on substitute. It also has a pretty ok speed tier, as in it outspeeds what it needs to most of the time. Cross chop misses are annoying tho, and running brick break gives up on some crucial match ups. I wouldn't rank this higher than heracross but it's definitely up there as a viable fighting type.

:scizor:C+ --> B / B+
At first I really doubted scizor as a pokemon but now that I've used it more I can safely say I'm a fan. Has tons of versatility between band, SD, sub versal, even ID Morning Sun and Light screen. Really interesting pokemon that is very under explored.

:armaldo: B- to B+ / A-:
Beats both of the current top tiers. I don't have much else to say about this mon, see adam's post. Hitting rock blast is annoying though.

:grumpig: C --> C+
One word, Trick. Trick + Choice Band effectively gives grumpig an infinite encore(a fair and balanced move) and alongside counter, it is able to beat most Choice band users. And with thick fat, grumpig becomes a consistent answer to both blissey's ice beam and charizard's fire moves. Definitely a niche pokemon but it has a niche nonetheless.

:marowak: A+ --> S-
Marowak has the power of a choice band without being choice locked, access to bonemerang, is incredibly versatile, while still being surprisingly bulky. What more do I need to say. Its many sets allow it to check practically all corners of the metagame. Offensive Sets give you the jump on blissey, Anti-heracross lets you beat...heracross, SpDef checks some petaya zapdos variants, and even full physically defense marowak is a thing to check ursaring. Just an incredibly solid pokemon in general.
Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Bonemerang
- Swords Dance
- Counter
- Filler

252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Marowak: 273-322 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

s/o to adam3560 for the set

:cradily: UR --> B / B+?
Cradily is viable I swear. Its typing is pretty good letting it beat common seeders like sceptile, celebi, jumpluff, and even venusaur for free. Access to amnesia, barrier, and recover let it boost on both sides of the defensive spectrum while getting instant recovery giving it good match ups against physical attackers that say a special wall like blissey would struggle against like ursaring, band zapdos(assuming blissey is not running counter), or bd zard just to name a few. It can even beat some special attackers that could give blissey trouble like alakazam and entei.
Cradily @ Leftovers
Ability: Suction Cups
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Atk / 100 Def / 48 SpD / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Barrier
- Amnesia
- Recover
- Hidden Power [Rock] / Rock slide

credit to LRXC for the set

Cradily @ Leftovers
Ability: Suction Cups
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 220 HP / 180 Def / 36 SpD / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Barrier
- Amnesia
- Recover
- Hidden Power [Rock] / Rock Slide

alternate set to beat salamence and ursaring more reliably
Optimized by LRXC

:arcanine: C+ --> B / B+?
This pokemon has gone under the radar for way too long. It's a fire type that consistently beats most variants of salamence and some marowak variants via intimidate. Extreme speed is helpful for pokemon that rely on a pinch berry like petaya alakazam and petaya charizard. Arcanine can even beat some petaya zapdos and raikou variants if it's running the right set.

:moltres: B- --> B
Fire bird is good. See deddd mans post here and here.

:raikou: A+ --> S-?
Definitely a really good pokemon but I feel like just running petaya isn't using raikou to its full potential. Pressure stall, a great surprise for pokemon that depend on banded earthquake as a means of answering raikou, and rest, a way for raikou to beat both registeel and blissey(2 supposed raikou "answers"), are sets that have tons of potential but I don't think are explored nearly enough. Raikou might not be S- material yet but as the playerbase explores the many possibilities of raikou sets, I could see it rise.

Drops:

:tyranitar:A+ --> A
I don't have much to add to ttar. See adam's post.

:registeel:S- --> A+ / A
So, adam already covered some of the reasons for my intense disgust for registeel but I feel like he missed one important point about ID registeel. According to bulbapedia, the chance to crit a single move in generation 3 is 6.25%. Which means the chance for to crit with earthquake is 64.4%(using the formula 100*(1-(15/16)^16)). And when those earthquakes are coming off of base 135/134 attack stats it is almost always going to be enough to kill. I'm assuming many players did know about this but I had seen way too many teams relying on ID registeel as there band mence or band metagross answer on the ADV 1v1 ladder that I felt bringing this point up is relevant. Now I'm not saying ID is useless, it's useful for physical attackers that don't do as damage but it shouldn't be your main answer to banded metagross.

:regice: A- --> B+ / B
Beats like 6 good pokemon and like most of them can tech for you. Sure you have like t-bolt for waters but no one uses vaporeon, starmie ig you can justify, gyarados just sub flails and beats you, and swampert doesn't care about t-bolt. You actually still lose to pert even if you run HP grass because band 2hkoes you with eq. Its spdef and amnesia is nice ig but use blissey IMO. Regice is basically a worse blissey in most cases. Not to say regice is useless, it has a niche beating marowak more consistently than blissey, but use blissey lol.

:blastoise: B+ --> B
Kingdra exists. I guess if you were scared of accuracy you could run blastoise, however, kingdra.

Some ADV Ramble​
:aerodactyl: Aerodactyl vs Armaldo :armaldo:
Currently, I think there is very little reason to use aero over the far more superior armaldo. Aerodactyl lacks both the offensive and defensive prowess of Armaldo, having to choose between jolly and adamant and losing important matchups with either one, ie losing to blissey if you run jolly or losing to sub petaya sceptile if you run adament. It lacks the matchups guaranteed by most rock types like regice and ursaring. Sure Aerodactyl can beat non-salac heracross and machamp but IMO if you have the option just run the bulkier and better rock type, armaldo.

Set Dump
:raikou: Raikou
Pressure Stall (Raikou) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
Pressure stall basically trade offs the banded metagross and band tauros mu with everything petaya beats with HP ice, basically just salamence and celebi.

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 108 SpA / 148 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
Rest is a neat tech on raikou to have good odds to beat both blissey and registeel(2 supposed raikou checks). Has its flaws of course but definitely not a set to completely brush off(Spdef is for blissey ice beam).

:zapdos:Zapdos
Sharp Beak (Zapdos) @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 72 SpA / 136 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Drill Peck
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Agility
Wanted a zapdos set that could beat both charizard and sceptile so I came up with this garbage. Attack is for the best chance to beat physically defensive sceptile after Agility and speed is so I can outspeed 252 speed adamant heracross with rock slide(if that even exists). Rest is dumped in HP.

Agility (Zapdos) @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 192 HP / 136 Def / 136 SpA / 44 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Agility
- Substitute
I found it absolutely appalling that the fast petaya zapdos in the set compendium couldn't beat jolly aerodactyl(rock type beating flying type ew). 192 hp is for modest starmie ice beam and with the defense you live jolly aero rock slide. Speed is to outspeed adamant heracross and rest is dumped in Special Attack. Agility is cool tech on zapdos to win the charizard speed ties, some 50/50s with other zapdos variants, and if you don't want to lose to liechi berry salamence with rock slide. Agility has definitely turned into my favorite last move on zapdos.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 60 HP / 192 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant / Lonely Nature
- Hidden Power [Fighting] / Thunderbolt
- Light Screen
- Substitute
- Return
Screenshot 2021-12-19 11.23.38 AM.png


:entei:Entei
Entei @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 160 HP / 208 Def / 100 SpA / 40 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Rest
- Reflect
An option over substitute to beat metagross, ursaring(barring burns), and banded sceptile. Speed is to outspeed 252 speed Adamant heracross.

:arcanine:Arcanine
MURMDOG HOO HOO (Arcanine) @ White Herb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 12 Def / 188 SpA / 52 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Overheat
- Agility
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Originally made this to 3-0 the charizard, metagross, raikou sample but realized that arcanine has tons of potential. Special defense is for most zapdos that don't run max special attack and defense is too live a band ursaring hyper beam. The rest is dumped in special attack. I already explained my thoughts about arcanine above but to keep it brief, cool fire type that has been under explored.

:armaldo:Armaldo
Armaldo @ Choice Band
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake / Brick Break
- Rock Blast
- Brick Break / Aerial Ace
- Hidden Power [Bug]
Max speed armaldo isn't a ground breaking discovery but I think it should at least be mentioned on the set compendium. Has good odds to beat ludicolo, machamp, and bulky tyranitar. Aerial ace gives armaldo some 50/50s against liechi heracross.

:swampert: Swampert
Swamperfect (Swampert) @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 96 SpA / 160 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Substitute
- Hydro Pump
- Earthquake
- Icy Wind
Speed is to outspeed base 100s after icy wind. Special defense is so blissey doesn't break your sub with ice beam. Special attack is to OHKO Ursaring with torrent+petaya boosted hydro pump. Basically a blastoise with less power that can beat blissey with good rolls and non-hp grass zapdos.

:charizard:Charizard
Charizard @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 24 HP / 188 SpA / 252 SpD / 44 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Blast Burn
- Flamethrower
Dragon dance is neat tech to elimnate to 50/50s against leech seed sceptiles. The special defense on this set is to outplay most non-agility zapdos and you live a t-bolt from most variants of zapdos.

:gengar:Gengar
Gengar @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 68 Def / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute / Giga Drain / Psychic
- Thunderbolt / Giga Drain / Psychic
- Ice Punch
- Taunt
Just the standard petaya gengar with taunt for registeel.

:metagross:Metagross
Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / Uhhhh idk whatever evs you want ig
Adamant Nature
- Swagger
- Psych Up
- Earthquake
- FIller
Just an idea I had in the back of my mind. Psych up swagger is a cool tech to guarantee beat blissey and registeel. Last slot can basically be whatever you want.

:milotic:Milotic
Milotic @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 232 HP / 24 Def / 124 SpA / 32 SpD / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Hydro Pump
- Surf
- Substitute
Worse blastoise that can beat some petaya zapdos variants. Not at all consistent but pretty fun.

:venusaur:
Venusaur @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Atk / 44 Def / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect
- Sludge Bomb
Stupid set I came up with on my free time. Basically, a sub seeder that beats blissey which is already pretty rare and is not worse HP Fighting celebi because you actually beat sceptile. Speed is to out pace max speed metagross and the defense is to live band metagross. Attack is to beat blissey.

TEAM DUMP

Builder: https://pokepast.es/917c992a63ea0d69 Most of these teams aren't very viable so I kept some of the ones that are somewhat usable below


:scizor::raikou::machamp:Scizor Raikou Machamp: I wanted to build around HP Flying machamp which turns out to be a really cool tech to beat heracross. I paired machamp with petaya raikou because it beats the flying types that machamp struggles with and machamp beats the rock, grounds, and steels which raikou has an awkward mu against. Scizor was a nice last to round out this team by beating alakazam, metagross, and other physical attackers that may give the team trouble.

:zapdos::swampert::cradily: Zapdos Swampert Cradily: Cradily is a nice alternative to blissey as a special wall to beat physical attackers that may give blissey trouble like ursaring, regirock, tauros, and some others. Zapdos is a great partner by beating waters, fightings, grounds, and metagross that may give cradily trouble. Swampert is a nice last to secure the mu against some bulky pokemon like blissey and registeel while also giving the team a more consistent raikou mu. Credit to LRXC for Optimized Evs.

:vaporeon::zapdos::armaldo:Vaporeon Zapdos Armaldo: Vaporeon is a great pokemon and more people should be using it. It walls almost all physical attackers and access to water absorb lets it wall opposing water types. I once again chose zapdos as my second but this time its banded to guarantee the sceptile and heracross mu, 2 pokemon that vaporeon struggles with. Finding a last to the team was hard but I eventually landed on SD armaldo. It beats opposing (non-banded)zapdos, raikou, and registeel(64.4% of the time).

:Blissey::marowak::salamence:Blissey Marowak Salamence: I built the marowak set awhile ago for prep against someone who was spamming the "BlissMence BUGGGIN" sample. ID Mence is a cool edition to beat any physical attackers marowak might have struggled against. Blissey was a natural last to beat any special attackers that would break the core of marowak + salamence.

:Cradily::medicham::zapdos:Cradily Medicham Zapdos: The original draft of the Cradily, Zapdos, Swampert team. Ended up switching out medicham for swampert to have a more secure pressure stall raikou mu.

S/O To adam, deddd man, and mocrokiller2 for helping me write this and as always PLAY ADV WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gn
 
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Charizard @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 24 HP / 94 SpA / 252 SpD / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Blast Burn
- Flamethrower

Agility (Zapdos) @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 192 HP / 136 Def / 42 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Agility
- Substitute

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 226 SpA / 148 SpD / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt

Optimizing this 3 sets. Raikou has 1 point more in speed. Zapdos and charizard more satk. Same number in other stats.



Bw 1 vs 1 samples need an update (dragonite, kyu-B and mew baned):

https://www.smogon.com/roa/?format=gen51v1
 
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