Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Sanshokuinsumireko · Dec 11, 2019

Hello,I have been brute forcing the meta game/ladder with this team.
Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/adament Nature
- Phantom Force
- Play Rough (stab)
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
Mimikyu is pretty much going to be a staple to the meta. With swords dance and phantom force this allows it beat aegislash. Shadow sneak allows it to pick off weakened mons. Other notable mons that I have faced/tested are galar darmanitan,ditto, and mew.

Darmanitan-Galar @ Choice Band/Choice Scarf
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower/earthquake
- Zen Headbutt/Earthquake
Darmanitan-galar is a strong pick with it's base attack power of 140 plus gorilla tactics, and 95 base speed allowing it to out speed base 90 more notable excadrill.
item option are choice band and choice scarf. With choice band this adds to the power darmanitan all ready has. While choice scarf allows it to beat haxouros,duant, and scarf excadrill.
Icicle crash stab
flare blitz this and icicle crash are staple moves. ( with choice band it allows flare blitz to beat non invested in def aegislash even at -1)
Super power,Earthquake,and Zen headbutt are all move that can be moved around.
(Zen headbutt I used more for galar weezing however with investment weezing can survive it.)

Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Fire Blast/psychic
- Trick

Togekiss is the I don't know how to team build so I put this mon on here. :)
Scarf and air slash so that you can outspeed and flinch stuff.
Dazzling gleam for killing dragons.
Fire blast help vs steel pokemon.
Psychic for poisen type mons
Trick to help beat mons that set up

For a different set you also run 12 spdef 244 speed 252 sp attack (sp def to survive thunder from timid dragapult, For non scarf varients.)

Morgan · Dec 11, 2019

Another Few cool sets I’ve been using
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 120 HP / 132 Atk / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Darkest Lariat
- Play Rough
- Superpower
- Trick

This Grimmsnarl Spread allows it to survive an Adamant Choice Scarf Excadrill Iron Head (Use Life Orb Exca tm) and OHKO with Superpower. Obvious Dual Stab and Prankster Trick because it’s fantastic.

Duraludon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 4 SpA / 88 SpD / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Steel Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt

This spread survives either 2 or a +2 Earthquake from Adamant crustle, as well as outspeeding Jolly Crustle. It also survives specs dragapult and Rotom heat’s Stab moves and ohkos in return.

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Poison Jab / X Scissor / Substitute
- Bulldoze

Life Orb Excadrill is best Excadrill. This is not a joke. It’s ability to beat Mew with Bulldoze + Earthquake is not to be underestimated. It also deals roughly similar damage to Band, and the damage loss doesn’t really affect most of the matchups band gains.

Tyranitar @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 84 Def / 172 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Taunt
- Crunch
- Earthquake

Survives Scarf Exca EQ and ohkos with its own EQ. Outspeeds mew and mimikyu at -1. Max attack for obvious reasons.

Hydreigon @ Haban Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 60 SpA / 200 SpD / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Nasty Plot

Survives choice specs dragapult and scarf hax (w/o any bulk I may add). Haban Dragon doing haban dragon things.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk

BalloonBoi · Dec 12, 2019

Dynamaxing should be unbanned

Close · Dec 12, 2019

Ehy guys!!

The problem Sableye sub / protect + disable + encore + filler (here a kind of Sableye sets) , is taking too much in this metagame and is becoming quite unmanageable. Reasoning from the point of view of the builder, I find it quite limiting to think of having to almost necessarily put a dark mon base (you can think of other alternatives but you risk occupying other slots to stop carcinogenic things). Having a dark pokemon in the team prevents Sableye, Mew, whimsicott, disable dragapult etcetc but finding alternatives (for sab or generally prankster) means limiting one of the, and not the overall. This is usually accompanied (even by logic) by a dark bait / dark check. This leads even more to a limitation of the building, where instead of being "free" on 3 slots, you reduce yourself to having only 1 slot available.

The problem then moves to the objectively decent dark pokemon for the metagame. Personally, I think the viable mon of this metagame, can be counted on the fingers of one hand. This makes the mg monotonous and, under certain aspects, the team you go to build risks sucking for the "not-cancer" team.
Instead from the battling point of view, it turns out to be the braindead / skill less thing I've ever seen. Playing against sableye + dark check, takes you to a series of "mind-piloting / mind-cond" very high compared to your opponent that if he doesn't see dark mon click sableye, while if there is dark mon he still has a lot less """" psychological pressures"""""(obviously game speaking, you don't have to go to the psychologist after a game like this eh lol) on the choice of the lead.

In my personal opinion, I wouldn't go for the pokemon, but for the mechanics itself. Or go and take action on prankster + disable or disable + encore or similar combinations

Sorry for my sucks eng but I hope I made myself understood

Yung Dramps · Dec 12, 2019

Prankster Trick + Disable?

Heehee. That's a good one.

Hatterene @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 44 SpA / 48 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam

This Pokemon nukes Sableye from orbit, that mon can't do anything worth a damn beyond a Trick due to Magic Bounce. It isn't a one-hit wonder role-wise, either. Magic Bounce has various applications against Whimsicott, Corsola, basically any mon that relies on a volatile status move gets their ass handed to them. As for the physical bulk, that's designed to tank CB Darmanitan-Galar's Icicle Crash and KO back with Mystical Fire after a Petaya Berry boost.

EDIT 1: Even further optimized spread. 12 Speed for outspeeding base 30s, Stored Power for better Unaware match-up

Joker 1v1 · Dec 14, 2019

I scream, you scream, we all scream for ice cream

Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs
Ability: Weak Armor
Happiness: 160
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Def / 192 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Hyper Voice

I know, I know. "How is this Ice Cream cone viable in 1v1?!" relax. This Dairy Delight may be sweet on the outside, but I assure you it packs quite the punch to give your opponents a Brain Freeze!

The bread and butter...or the cream & sugar rather of this set lies in it's ability Weak Armor and it's move Freeze Dry.

Weak Armor - If a physical attack hits this Pokemon, Defense is lowered by 1, Speed is raised by 2.
Freeze Dry - 10% chance to freeze. Super effective on Water.

Weak Armor's affect grants Vanilluxe enough speed (484) to outspeed Pokémon such as Dragapult (421), Jolly-Scarfed Darmanitan-Galar (475) & Jolly-Scarfed Haxorous (483)

Q: But does Vanilluxe have the bulk to even live hits? A: Yes.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Superpower vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 252-298 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haxorus: 422-498 (144 - 169.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Edited. Gorilla Tactics is not implemented into the Showdown Calculator) Sadly now Vanilluxe loses this match-up :(
252+ Atk Darmanitan-Galar Flare Blitz vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 244-288 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darmanitan-Galar: 302-356 (86 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Outrage vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 244-288 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 398-470 (125.5 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 SpA Life Orb Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 242-285 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 273-322 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 277-327 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 314-370 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 244-288 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 342-404 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 237-280 (79.2 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Vanilluxe: 268-316 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Corviknight Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 122-146 (40.8 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 180-213 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 236-282 (78.9 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 223-264 (61.6 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 283-335 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 259-306 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 592-700 (184.4 - 218%) -- guaranteed OHKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Vanilluxe: 285-336 (95.3 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Final Thoughts: Vanilluxe at first glace is just meant to be the "Ice Cream Pokémon" but can be much more than that. It's in no way one of the best, but with it's solid stats & unique play-style it can be a good counter to some of the stronger Pokémon as well as a good stand alone.

Ginger Princess · Dec 14, 2019

Mew, Sableye, and Moody

With the removal of dynamax from the 1v1 metagame, the metagame has allowed itself to shift to an overall healthier place than it was before. However, as the cap behind set creation that was dynamax is now gone, several Pokemon have been able to shine with their own individual sets and techniques that have significantly effected the 1v1 Metagame. Let's talk about a few of them.

Mew in previous Gens was a jack of all trades, master of none kind of Pokemon, thanks to a greater power creep and less strategies available to it. However, with Dynamax removed, and the new moves it has at its disposal + less power creep to hold it back, Mew has now been able to rise as a clear top tier in the current metagame. Its most impressive new strategy is Imprison + Transform; previously only available to Smeargle, which was marred by low Speed and pitiful bulk, Mew is basically guaranteed to live multiple attacks from almost any Pokemon and completely invalidate their strategy, aided by items like Mental Herb, Kasib Berry, and Sitrus Berry. While counterplay to these sets do exist, they are usually stomped out by the plethora of also-viable offensive strategies Mew can use, particularly Choice Band and Choice Specs.

Sableye is also a Pokemon that, once its strategy was cracked, saw a meteoric rise; its access to Prankster + status moves like Disable, Encore, Trick, Taunt, Substitute, Protect, Night Shade, and Recover gives Sableye several options to essentially invalidate all Choice Item users, as well as all stall and setup offense. Obviously, Sableye is obviously hardcountered by Dark-types, but the next best way of beating Sableye involves using 2 super offensive moves that both significantly threatens Sableye, which is very hard to do in this deescalated metagame, or with mind games with Taunt, which can again be shut down with opposing Taunt or Trick Choice Scarf.

Moody is not really overpowering, per se, but the strategies involved in making Moody work are some of the least competitive viable options in the metagame. Octillery can use Protect + Thunder Wave + motherfuckin attract to win whenever the RNG gods feel inclined, whereas Glalie can use Protect + Substitute + Disable to give it the best odds. Both of these strategies are only enabled by Moody, and can turn what should be reliable matchups into complete luck.

Anyway, what are y'alls thoughts on all of these? Mew was definitely brought up earlier as a point of contention, and it seems the fears were not unjustified. And, while this doesn't relate to the effect on the 1v1 metagame right now, bear in mind that once Pokemon Home releases, Mew could get access to recovery options.

Joker 1v1 · Dec 14, 2019

Alakazam said:
Mew, Sableye, and Moody

With the removal of dynamax from the 1v1 metagame, the metagame has allowed itself to shift to an overall healthier place than it was before. However, as the cap behind set creation that was dynamax is now gone, several Pokemon have been able to shine with their own individual sets and techniques that have significantly effected the 1v1 Metagame. Let's talk about a few of them.

Mew in previous Gens was a jack of all trades, master of none kind of Pokemon, thanks to a greater power creep and less strategies available to it. However, with Dynamax removed, and the new moves it has at its disposal + less power creep to hold it back, Mew has now been able to rise as a clear top tier in the current metagame. Its most impressive new strategy is Imprison + Transform; previously only available to Smeargle, which was marred by low Speed and pitiful bulk, Mew is basically guaranteed to live multiple attacks from almost any Pokemon and completely invalidate their strategy, aided by items like Mental Herd, Kasib Berry, and Sitrus Berry. While counterplay to these sets do exist, they are usually stomped out by the plethora of also-viable offensive strategies Mew can use, particularly Choice Band and Choice Specs.

Sableye is also a Pokemon that, once its strategy was cracked, saw a meteoric rise; its access to Prankster + status moves like Disable, Encore, Trick, Taunt, Substitute, Protect, Night Shade, and Recover gives Sableye several options to essentially invalidate all Choice Item users, as well as all stall and setup offense. Obviously, Sableye is obviously hardcountered by Dark-types, but the next best way of beating Sableye involves using 2 super offensive moves that both significantly threatens Sableye, which is very hard to do in this deescalated metagame, or with mind games with Taunt, which can again be shut down with opposing Taunt or Trick Choice Scarf.

Moody is not really overpowering, per se, but the strategies involved in making Moody work are some of the least competitive viable options in the metagame. Octillery can use Protect + Thunder Wave + motherfuckin attract to win whenever the RNG gods feel inclined, whereas Glalie can use Protect + Substitute + Disable to give it the best odds. Both of these strategies are only enabled by Moody, and can turn what should be reliable matchups into complete luck.

Anyway, what are y'alls thoughts on all of these? Mew was definitely brought up earlier as a point of contention, and it seems the fears were not unjustified. And, while this doesn't relate to the effect on the 1v1 metagame right now, bear in mind that once Pokemon Home releases, Mew could get access to recovery options.

Moody will give Octillery & Glalie a better chance to shine in the meta which has seen so many mons already taken. Due to these being the only mons that can run this ability this gen in 1v1.

When you make a new set, the first thing you think of is, does this beat Mew? Smeargle was slower, and less bulky. Mew not only has a better ability it doesn't have to rely on "spore" to win like smeargle did.

What started out as a Mew counter, evolved into a set that is viable with Mew not in the meta. If Mew was to be banned, sableye will continue to use this set without little counter play due to its prankster status move. Plus is dark typing stops other pranksters from effecting it

Morgan · Dec 14, 2019

Moody is fine, it’s not very good or a reliable win condition on the pokemon that can use it well.

Sableye should be suspected, as it’s unhealthy for the metagame, forcing people to run Strong fairies, Darks, Magic Bounce, and other bad tech to beat it.

Mew is almost tolerable, and should maybe be discussed a little more, as it clearly hasn’t reached its full potential yet

zmasta · Dec 14, 2019

Banning Mew and Sableye is pretty obvious at this point. Mew is too versatile, and Sableye nullifies too many strategies. I don't really care if Moody gets banned or not since it's about as good as slapping brightpowder and attract on any decent Pokemon anyway.

Other ban thoughts:
Mimikyu - For whatever reason this was actually pretty close to winning in the poll on Showdown. It's clearly very good, but is nowhere near the monstrosity that is Mew. Keep for now.
Trick - I think this could eventually be too overbearing, especially if Sableye somehow gets banned before Mew does. It allows choice item users, especially scarf, to beat things they absolutely should have no business winning against otherwise, like setup and sub-seeders. However, we should wait until Mew and Sableye get banned, and then see how good it is in that meta first.
Sleep - no

Cantius · Dec 14, 2019

Trick is not universal, and most Pokemon that have it are not viable. Take a look:

Many Pokemon here that are viable are not primarily viable for their Choice item (and therefore Trick) sets: :trevenant:

,

,

,

,

, and

. Other Pokemon are niche: :gardevoir:

,

,

formes, and :obstagoon:

. This leaves three notable Trick abusers: :indeedee:

(both male and female, similar enough), :chandelure:

, and

.

Trick's use is inconsistent in beating SubSeed and setup, as zmasta has claimed. The best SubSeeder, Whimsicott, can easily avoid Trick through its Prankster priority by using Substitute/Taunt, plus scout for attacking moves using Protect. Setup Pokemon like Swords Dance Mimikyu can 2HKO many, if not most, Pokemon on the Trick list. Alternatively, if setup Pokemon outspeed the Trick user, they have free choice after the Choice item is Tricked onto them. This means that they can choose an attacking move after they Trick their Choice item on you, and they might even get a notable stat boost on their attack!

Does Trick create mind games? Yes. Are notable matchups 50/50s? No. Whimsicott easily scouts using Protect; SD Mimikyu can 2HKO most Trick Pokemon without a setup boost. There is enough counterplay, and there is only a select few: Trick is not broken. We move on to the second criterion for bans: is Trick uncompetitive? I've already explained, Trick doesn't considerably decrease the effect of the interaction between player choice and game outcome in a high number of scenarios. This leaves the third criterion: unhealthiness. The only strategy that Trick shuts down regardless of how well the opponent plays is stall. But if Trick 3-0s your pure stall team, so probably will Taunt, why are you using three pure stall Pokemon on the same team?

Trick is just a strategy that a select few Choice item users can use to defeat stall.

Notater · Dec 14, 2019

Moody is fine to me, as it's extremely inconsistent and its best abuser in Glalie still finds itself struggling on multiple fronts.

Mew feels like it could perhaps be suspected, but I feel like many Pokemon have adapted for it, and its inconsistent at best matchups against threats like Dragapult, Crustle, Mimikyu, and Hydreigon leave me opposed to a suspect as of right now. The meta still is relatively undeveloped, but it feels to me like much of the metagame has adapted to it a fair bit.

I'm still formulating an opinion on Sableye, although at the moment it seems like probably the most unhealthy of the three points brought up. Its counterplay being well-defined does make its presence significantly easier to deal with however.

icecat · Dec 14, 2019

Cantius said:
Trick is not universal, and most Pokemon that have it are not viable. Take a look:

View attachment 212100

Many Pokemon here that are viable are not primarily viable for their Choice item (and therefore Trick) sets: , , , , , and . Other Pokemon are niche: , , formes, and . This leaves three notable Trick abusers: (both male and female, similar enough), , and .

Trick's use is inconsistent in beating SubSeed and setup, as zmasta has claimed. The best SubSeeder, Whimsicott, can easily avoid Trick through its Prankster priority by using Substitute/Taunt, plus scout for attacking moves using Protect. Setup Pokemon like Swords Dance Mimikyu can 2HKO many, if not most, Pokemon on the Trick list. Alternatively, if setup Pokemon outspeed the Trick user, they have free choice after the Choice item is Tricked onto them. This means that they can choose an attacking move after they Trick their Choice item on you, and they might even get a notable stat boost on their attack!

Does Trick create mind games? Yes. Are notable matchups 50/50s? No. Whimsicott easily scouts using Protect; SD Mimikyu can 2HKO most Trick Pokemon without a setup boost. There is enough counterplay, and there is only a select few: Trick is not broken. We move on to the second criterion for bans: is Trick uncompetitive? I've already explained, Trick doesn't considerably decrease the effect of the interaction between player choice and game outcome in a high number of scenarios. This leaves the third criterion: unhealthiness. The only strategy that Trick shuts down regardless of how well the opponent plays is stall. But if Trick 3-0s your pure stall team, so probably will Taunt, why are you using three pure stall Pokemon on the same team?

Trick is just a strategy that a select few Choice item users can use to defeat stall.

1. You left out Switcharoo, the most notable user being Whimsicott. So it is silly to say that Trick isn't broken because it can't beat Whimsicott who is also capable of abusing an identical move. If we ban Sableye, then Whimsicott and Grimmsnarl will just take its place.

2. For Trick shutting down stall, Taunt and Encore can be countered with Mental Herb, but there is no item this gen to prevent Trick. Banning Trick, Switcharoo, and Mew should be enough to make some stall sets viable.

Ginger Princess · Dec 14, 2019

pqs said:
sableye is annoying and broken, disable prot is cheese and basically forces you to counter it to make a "viable" team in this crushed meta.

mew should really be explored more with its movepool before we go any further with looking into banning it or not.

moody? inconsistent af and is really just a cheese joke in competitive pokemon /shrug

How exactly would exploring mew’s moveset make it less suspectable? Mew already is at the levels of absurdity with its ability to do basically anything it wants, with any playstyle, to beat any mom, with its base set suffocating a huge amount of the metagame.

Cantius · Dec 14, 2019

icecat
Why would Sableye use Trick, why would Sableye run Choice item, same with Whimsicott running Choice Specs + Switcheroo
Only other viable mon with Switcheroo is Obstagoon, which already gets Trick
Mental Herb isn't great for shutting down Taunt and Encore, you just get Taunted/Encore again unless you're running weird stuff like Taunt yourself, even then Mental Herb + Taunt Corviknight is worse than regular Sitrus Berry
And stall's already viable, Corviknight is capable of beating many hyper offensive Pokemon and can even PP Stall Choice Scarf Dragapult. Stall already beats many Choice item users, Trick is just a nice tool to have when you don't have a STAB super effective move

Arai · Dec 14, 2019

icecat said:
1. You left out Switcharoo, the most notable user being Whimsicott. So it is silly to say that Trick isn't broken because it can't beat Whimsicott who is also capable of abusing an identical move. If we ban Sableye, then Whimsicott and Grimmsnarl will just take its place.

2. For Trick shutting down stall, Taunt and Encore can be countered with Mental Herb, but there is no item this gen to prevent Trick. Banning Trick, Switcharoo, and Mew should be enough to make some stall sets viable.

I feel like you forgot what Sableye is actually capable of. Sableye is also running Disable and Encore to invalidate Choice users as well as Stall. Neither Whimsicott nor Grimmsnarl can do that and Whimsicott should be running SubSeed anyway.

Morgan · Dec 14, 2019

icecat said:
If we ban Sableye, then Whimsicott and Grimmsnarl will just take its place.

Sableye is as good as it is because of its access to Disable
Neither Grimmsnarl or Whimsicott has this.

icecat · Dec 14, 2019

Trick is a viable on Sableye because unlike Encore it is permanent and not blocked by mental herb.

For disable Dragupult plays that role well, so I guess those 3 Pokemon can replace the roles that Sableye does. Sorry I forgot Grimmsnarl only gets Taunt not Disable.

Morgan · Dec 14, 2019

icecat said:
Trick is a viable on Sableye because unlike Encore it is permanent and not blocked by mental herb.

For disable Dragupult plays that role well, so I guess those 3 Pokemon can replace the roles that Sableye does. Sorry I forgot Grimmsnarl only gets Taunt not Disable.

dragapult can't give its opponent a choice item unlike sableye. whimsi and grimm can't fulfill the same role at all. also none of those pokemon have access to recovery outside of rest, meaning even if it worked (which it doesn't) it would be wildly inconsistent

Cantius · Dec 14, 2019

icecat said:
Trick is a viable on Sableye because unlike Encore it is permanent and not blocked by mental herb.

The purpose of Trick is to Trick on a Choice item. Sableye can't use Trick because it'd need to run a Choice item. This would incapacitate it, being forced to Trick against many Pokemon before it could use its other moves comfortably. Its reliability against Choice item users would also decrease because it would need to survive a hit before Disabling.

Morgan · Dec 14, 2019

Cantius said:
The purpose of Trick is to Trick on a Choice item. Sableye can't use Trick because it'd need to run a Choice item. This would incapacitate it, being forced to Trick against many Pokemon before it could use its other moves comfortably. Its reliability against Choice item users would also decrease because it would need to survive a hit before Disabling.

Trick on Sableye allows it to win against essentially any Pokemon that Can't OHKO it. It has fling to deal with Choice Users as well. Trick is its best set by quite a good margin, as it's more reliable in more matchups than disable + encore.

zmasta · Dec 14, 2019

Cantius said:
Trick is not universal, and most Pokemon that have it are not viable. Take a look:

View attachment 212100

Many Pokemon here that are viable are not primarily viable for their Choice item (and therefore Trick) sets: , , , , , and . Other Pokemon are niche: , , formes, and . This leaves three notable Trick abusers: (both male and female, similar enough), , and .

Trick's use is inconsistent in beating SubSeed and setup, as zmasta has claimed. The best SubSeeder, Whimsicott, can easily avoid Trick through its Prankster priority by using Substitute/Taunt, plus scout for attacking moves using Protect. Setup Pokemon like Swords Dance Mimikyu can 2HKO many, if not most, Pokemon on the Trick list. Alternatively, if setup Pokemon outspeed the Trick user, they have free choice after the Choice item is Tricked onto them. This means that they can choose an attacking move after they Trick their Choice item on you, and they might even get a notable stat boost on their attack!

Does Trick create mind games? Yes. Are notable matchups 50/50s? No. Whimsicott easily scouts using Protect; SD Mimikyu can 2HKO most Trick Pokemon without a setup boost. There is enough counterplay, and there is only a select few: Trick is not broken. We move on to the second criterion for bans: is Trick uncompetitive? I've already explained, Trick doesn't considerably decrease the effect of the interaction between player choice and game outcome in a high number of scenarios. This leaves the third criterion: unhealthiness. The only strategy that Trick shuts down regardless of how well the opponent plays is stall. But if Trick 3-0s your pure stall team, so probably will Taunt, why are you using three pure stall Pokemon on the same team?

Trick is just a strategy that a select few Choice item users can use to defeat stall.

Whimsicott is the only sub-seeder that beats trick. You even listed Trevenant as a viable Pokemon that prefers sets other than trick. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

SD Mimikyu again is a very specific example. Most Mimikyus don't even run swords dance, and what about mons like BU Corvinite and Shell Smash Crustle? Sure, you can run protect to make the trick matchup more manageable, but then your sacrificing coverage for other threats that your team likely needs.

Another problem with trick, like you said, is that it allows choice mons to beat stall. You can't just say it loses to taunt anyway, because choice mons aren't supposed to be able to use taunt, that's part of the trade-off of the items. This removes a large function of stall mons, which are typically good counters to choice item users.

I do think we will need to let the post-Mew meta develop before making a final verdict, especially since trick is a fantastic Mew check, but as of right now I still think it could be problematic going forward.

Morgan · Dec 14, 2019

zmasta said:
Most Mimikyus don't even run swords dance,

this is a lie.
most mimikyus are running Life Orb with Play Rough + Shadow Sneak + Swords Dance + Phantom Force / Shadow Claw atm, as curse has poor matchups against the top tier pokemon. Swords dance is key to this set as it allows it to wall break relatively well. Could potentially be slashed for taunt, but SD is the best option

Cantius · Dec 14, 2019

If you really want it, here's a table of major Trick users vs some SubSeeders, and if they would beat them without Trick:

	Whimsicott	Trevenant	Ferrothorn
Indeedee	yes (Hyper Voice)	no (usually tanks)	yes (Mystical Fire)
Togekiss	no (usually tanks)	yes (Air Slash)	yes (Fire Blast)
Chandelure	yes (Infiltrator)	yes (Fire move)	yes (Fire move)
Sableye	yes (no Prankster vs Dark)	yes (Taunt)	yes (Taunt)

The major Trick users can beat SubSeeders without Trick. The Pokemon that really benefit from Trick beating SubSeed are niche ones like Choice Scarf Rotom and Choice Band Obstagoon. But those are rarer matchups, so the argument's link to instances of player skill is weakened.

Again, Trick doesn't invalidate stall as a playstyle on the whole; it just invalidates a few matchups. Trick prevents your skill from mattering if you're stall... even if you choose . Remember, a core part of 1v1's tiering philosophy is that we do not judge by playstyle (from Gen 7, but still applies):

3) We do not judge by playstyle since this is 1v1. If a Pokemon defeats a stall team in 1v1 it shouldn't be looked into due to them having a lot of choices to pick from and being having only two-third of the team stallish doesn't stop the last member from defeating a more offensive Pokemon. Ex: If Mega Charizard Y defeats a stall team made of Mega Venusaur, Jellicent and Mandibuzz it's not the Pokemon that is broken, the team doesn't synergize to defeat common threats in the metagame which is your fault, same goes to offensive teams that loses to Chansey. They are S ranked for a reason.

zmasta is Trick broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy? How does Trick reduce the skill component of Gen 8 1v1?

As ladder stats are useless due to the Dynamax era, I looked up Start Up Tour Round 1 usage stats to see how Mimikyu is used. It's not much, actually, considering it was used only once, as much as Phantom Force or Shadow Claw. The replay list is here, and you can go to http://replaystats-eo.herokuapp.com/ to compile usage stats:

zioziotrip · Dec 15, 2019

I think the Trick/Switcheroo discussion is kind of ridiculous. It is incredibly easy to play around even with some stall sets.

Sabeleye is worth a suspect in my opinion. It flat out beats a majority of the metagame with one set and there has been a rise in otherwise niche mons such as Hatterene just to beat it.

Mew may be worth a suspect but I’m on the fence so I’ll just list what I believe are the best for/against arguments.

For
-It’s versatility is ridiculous. It can beat a vast majority of things in the metagame and with it soon potentially gaining recovery it will be even better gain access to bulky sets.
-Its stats are pretty damn solid in the current metagame. While none of them are individually impressive they combine to form a speedy tank.
-Imprison+Transform is the best speed trapper in the tier. A reliable 100 base speed speed trapper(adios Jumpluff) is crazy.
-It can tack on many items to deal with usual checks. Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Kasib Berry being the most notable.
-The meta has clearly shifted around Mew since it is such a solid pick.
-Makes team preview difficult as Mew has so many viable sets.
Against
-While Mew has the potential to beat most things it can’t run every set at once.
-It has reliable checks in Golscipod, Mimikyu(usually), Aegislash, and some Dragapult sets. Gengar is also worth mentioning but it is not great in the current meta and is mostly just a check to Mew without much other use.(And loses to scarf)

Non-Arguments
-If Mew runs X then it can beat Y and this is true for everything!
Mew can’t always run X. It only has one item slot and four move slots. Mew very rarely 3-0s a team right out the gate, if it does you’ve been c-teamed or you have a flawed team.
-I have to run a check for Mew!
Yes as with most metagames you will have to run a check for a top threat.
-We should only ban X on Mew!
Frowned down upon and for good reason.

Edit: Forgot about Moody. A gimmick. I honestly see no reason for it staying but I won’t be outraged if it does.

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