Metagame SV RU Metagame Discussion (Enamorus-Therian banned, see post #235)

[FlamingoPokeman]

Hello everyone, welcome to my latest installment of 'writing a bunch of stuff I've been thinking of lately'.
In this post, I plan on covering some general guidelines for people to consider when building in the current iteration of SV RU. While the Thundurus-Therian (likely) ban will happen soon and render some of this moot, the points I discuss should still hold up until at least the next tier shifts.

General Rules of Team-Building in SV RU
​

As always, the standard 'rules' regarding team-building should be followed. This includes having a Ground immune, a Volt immune, Hazard control (both setting and removing), and having a form of Speed control.

The first specific rule to address is to have a way to stop the bulky Psychic setup mons such as Cresselia, Reuniclus and Slowbro. These three can be incredibly annoying because of their utility, having access to Calm Mind, consistent recovery, naturally good bulk and the ability to hinder opponents through the use of Thunder Wave. These three also benefit greatly from using Tera in a defensive manner, such as Cresselia or Slowbro using Tera Poison to prevent their setup from being thwarted by Poison. Reuniclus is a bit more open in what it can run but has been seen using Tera Electric recently to stop Jirachi in its tracks.
While there aren't a ton of great answers to this Psychic problem we face (all the good Dark types were too good), you can still apply pressure offensively using the litany of options available or you can phase them with something like Dragon Tail Cyclizar or Roar Empoleon.

Rule number two for me is to have answers to the generic Hyper Offense's that run the tier. The usual HO consists of some combination of the following:
While the above list doesn't cover all of the threats you may see, these are the main ones you'll encounter and the main things to focus on. A recurring theme about the above list is that a lot of them are physically oriented, and you'll often see structures that run four or five physical attackers, such as or
A great item to load on all structures is Rocky Helmet, usually given to Cobalion, Hippowdon or the occasional Amoonguss. You also want to maintain a Speed control of at least Iron Leaves at +1, which means you should ideally have a Choice Scarf mon with a base Speed of 105 or greater, such as Gengar, Infernape or Mienshao.

Rule number three revolves around some of the highest-usage mons in the tier: Cobalion, Cyclizar, Hippowdon, Jirachi and Moltres.
This rule is fairly simple; be able to break the common defensive structures. Too many people are comfortably loading three, four or all five of the listed and playing longer games that have lots of safe switches and aim to wear your team down gradually through hazard chip and fairly weak attacks.
While this Bulky Offense / Balance approach is a generally safe way to play and has lots of upsides in terms of matching up into Offensive and HO structures, they are susceptible to plenty of structures such as:
SpikeStack cores of Chesnaught, Cyclizar and Palossand that abuse how reliant teams are on their own Cyclizar to maintain hazard control
VoltTurn cores of Cyclizar, Thundurus-Therian and Zapdos-Galar that force progress through means of gradual chip damage
StatusSpam cores of Bellibolt, Jirachi and Slowbro that hinder the opponent and allow you to buy turns to get something in and setup
ChoiceTrick options such as Gardevoir, Infernape or Munkidori that force a Choice item on something that doesn't like having it

My fourth and final rule relates to ladder largely - have ways to beat Rain. While Rain is generally classified as HO, the specific structures you'll see are relatively straightforward but really potent. The obligatory trio of Rain abusers are Barraskewda, Basculegion-F and Politoed, with plenty of teams opting for also running Cobalion or Jirachi as a Steel type Stealth Rocker that can pivot or spread Paralysis, Overqwil as a Poison Type SD Swift Swim sweeper and Kilowattrel/Thundurus-Therian as Ground- and Volt-immune Electric type pivots. While the sets on these types of teams are easy to predict in preview, having reliable switches (and making good reads) into the onslaught of immediate power available to these teams isn't so easy.
Some of the better mons that also matchup well into Rain are Gardevoir, Slowbro and Volcanion, as all three of these can reliably matchup into Rain while also providing general value into other matchups. Empoleon, Suicune and Wo-Chien also see adequate usage in the tier and can be headaches for these types of mash-buttons HO. The best way to handle these teams is to maintain hazard control and force gradual chip throughout the course of a game, although that is easier said than done.

High-Value Underrated Mons​

A little bonus segment I'll include is listing a few options in the builder that I would consider underrated or underutilized.
- One of the better Stall breakers in the tier that can reliably clean games. Takes advantage of a lot of U-Turn spam with Cyclizar and can chunk a lot of stuff with CM + 3 Attacks.
- Big fan of this guy in general. Matches up into HO and Rain really consistently, can go the distance in longer games against BO and Balance, can spread Paralysis and Toxic. Genuinely good mon that is kinda memed for being a funny guy.
- One of the forgotten broken Fighting types. Deals insane damage and can revenge kill most of the tier, ignore Moltres as a Flame Body Physical Defense mon, has STAB priority... really really strong mon.
- The forgotten Toxic Chain Trio mon. Fast enough to outrun +1 Leaves with Scarf, can Trick fatter mons, Spread Toxic and deal lots of damage into the tier as a whole. Super fun thing to use.
- A standard SpikeStack mon, super good at abusing Cyclizar removal teams (which is, like, all teams). Scorching Sands is fun to click.
- A reliable switch-in to CM Enamorus-Therian and Thundurus-Therian, which is hard to find right now. NP Pain Split sets are still good.
- Fast mon, can Toxic anything, nukes most of the tier with NP Encore sets.

 

[Heatranator]

So with the thundurus therian suspect about to finish (Please ban this mon, it feels so cancerous to play against) I want to talk about two lower tier mons that I have been having great success with that can fit onto some team structures. These mons are and
I'll talk about first since I believe it is the worst of the two, but still a very good mon. Now, what the hell is 's niche? It's a PU mon that has mediocre stats and not much of a movepool. Well, with the ability fluffy, it is one of the best physically defensive mons in the game. If you don't know, fluffy halves the damage from any contact moves used against the user, but doubles the power of fire type moves. Most physical moves are contact moves, the main exception being stone edge, and unless incineroar suddenly becomes more popular, is really effective at taking physical hits. For reference, a choice band adaptability knock from crawdaunt does 80% damage max.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Houndstone: 238-280 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is a really big hit that even terrakion, a resist btw, takes 65% from max. If even the strongest dark hit in the tier can't ko it, then nothing is breaking past it. +2 iron leaves leaf blade does 43% max to it, while +1 revavroom iron head does 24% max. It even can take a few special hits, as it always survives a gengar shadow ball from full and specs cobalion flash cannon is never a 2hit ko with lefties. Now, this is impressive hits that houndstone can easily take, but what does it do in return? Well, it can do a few things. It can use it's maxed out defense stat and launch a powerful body press that can 2-3 hit ko things like cobalion, terrakion or cyclizar. But what about things that resist body press? Can't they just ignore it and continue to set up? Well, that's where night shade comes in to deal consistent damage to opponents or you can use will-o-wisp to cripple an opposing mon permanently. Of course, the main issue with houndstone is that it has no reliable recovery, meaning it has to overely on leftovers and if that is knocked off, it has no form of recovery. Right? Well, kinda. Houndstone can use pain split as an unreliable, but very much appreciated, form of recovery. This also allows it to passively chip some opponents that like to switch in on it, such as gardevoir. Overall, while houndstone isn't always the best mon on the team, it can for sure put in work and be a great defensive blanket check that can annoy the hell out of the opponent.

Set I used:
Houndstone @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Night Shade
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp

Now, I want to go onto a mon that I think has a really good niche in the tier, Now, what am I doing using a ZU ranked mon in RU? Well, in my never ending quest to not use cyclizar, I was looking through the lower tiers for a spinner. I also wanted to use a ground type that was not krook or hippo, since I had been using them a lot, and stood out as an option that covered both of those areas and didn't suck ass. Now, what is 's niche besides a spinner? Well, two things.
One, it is a ground type that beats other ground types. This is big when facing against opposing krook, hippos or palossand's, as they can not do much to it. The best krook can do is knock off toedscruel and do a tiny bit of damage with gunk shot (giga drain recovers off most of the hp), the best hippo can do is take 55% min and whirlwind it out and the best palossand can do is shadow ball it for 30% damage that will be easily recovered off by giga drain. This is while still acting as a ground type, as it is able to take any +2 hit from thundy-t that is not tera blast flying and respond with a mirror coat.
Secondly, can decimate some common cores with only a bit of help. Let's look at two good cores.

This is a core that actually can't do much to and has to overely on cyclizar to do anything to it, which is not actually reliable in countering. Cyclizar can at best, knock off toedscruel's item and then threaten it with 2 double edges. This is a risky endevaour, as cyclizar is potentially two hit ko'd by earth power and with only 10% chip, is basically always going to be 2hit ko'd. The other two can't do much to . Hippowdon can basically do nothing to while empoleon has to spec out ice beam in order to do meaningful damage to it, as surf does 35% max and can threaten a 3hit ko with earth power. Ice beam isn't even a clean OHKO, with it dealing 95% max. Technically, empoleon can roost spam in order to beat , but this is putting it at the mercy of a special defense drop from earth power and it has to use a lot of roosts. This is a really common core and forcing it into difficult positions is big for the team.

With the rise of spike stack teams in order to counter teams that use top mons to deal chip damage in order to wear down your opponent, palossand has found itself as a good mon in the tier that can be a reliable spin blocker while being an alternative to hippo as a ground type. Overqwil is a mon that rose up to RU in the latest tier shifts as it is probably one of the best defensive dark types in the tier in order to handle the increased prevelance of psychic types while fitting nicely onto said spike stack teams by providing spikes for the team. I won't sugarcoat this, shits on this core. Overqwil can try to use crunch in order to deal 70% max to , but it has a really good chance to be OHKO'd by earth power. also outspeeds overqwil so it has to predict it coming in to get damage off. It can't even try to get a spike as it goes out, since spins those away easily. Palossand, can't do shit to it. Even the stealth rocks it sets up are going to be spinned away at some point. The damage it can do is recovered off by giga drain, which is a easy 2hit ko.

Now, I'm going to list all the mons in the tier which are threatened by in some way (some of these mons can have ways to threaten , but they usually have to predict or get chip)
(band sets destroy it, but they cannot switch in to it at all)











(not against band sets though, but those can't switch in)
(unless they are a rain sweeper)

(you take too much from gunk shot but you outspeed them and ohko with earth power unless they are balloon)
(outspeeds and can ohko you with cc, but takes a lot from both stab moves)


That is 12 mons it can definetely counter with 5 others it can counter depending on the set (about a third of the tier). Many other mons such as and don't like switching into it, so this number could definetely by higher.

Now, of course an issue is that many things can pack ice type coverage for and you are a ground type that can struggle against fire types, especially moltres who rubs its wings together if it sees it in team preview. Well, there is a simple solution, tera water. Now, of course tera'ing a mon is not especially the best thing in the world, but not only does outspeed all fire types except entei (who it speed ties) meaning it can emergency check them, but a water type is a massive threat to teams. For example, a basc-f is definetely threatened by , but it can usually take a hit and respond with an ice beam. With tera water, this is thrown out the drain and due to the only electric type being thundurus therian (and sometimes raikou and magnezone), this just leaves the grass types, which while they are good, can be pressured by teammates. If you can identify that a tera water can sweep, which it can a lot of the time, then it is absolutely worth it.

If you decide to not tera , there is one option it can use to threaten any mon that decides to hit it super effectively, mirror coat. Due to 's great base 120 special defense, it can even take uninvested stabless ice beams and uninvested stab fire moves and respond with an ohko with mirror coat. This is big, especially against something like moltres, who usually sits on , but is going to be cleanly ko'd in return.

Overall, I think (are you getting tired of the minisprites yet?) is a really solid mon in the tier that can perform a lot of functions in spinning away hazards and checking/threatening a lot of the metagame with good damage. I'd suggest you give it a try if you are tired of cyclizar and don't want to use forretress. (I did not realise I wrote this much on toedscruel. I think I need to get a better life at some point lmao)

Set I used:
Toedscruel @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Mycelium Might
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earth Power
- Giga Drain
- Mirror Coat
You can swap out mirror coat for knock off if you want to, but I like the ability to smack the shit out of thundy-t and fire types.
Also, please stop using status moves on toedscruel, you are making the mon much worse by doing that.

 

[Elec-ant1234]

(Skip this if you don't want to see a skill issue)

Hello metagamers, I come to thee to share some slight insights and knowledge that I have gleamed from my laddering and my look at the usage stats for last month- as I imagine that the trends and usage I saw there would be roughly the same as now, minus the Thundurus-T of course.
I unfortunately, despite my best efforts, was not able to make reqs, finding the task absolutely Sisyphean after I reached 68.5% GXE or so. I would win a game, get like .3%, and then lost one immediately after either to a bad matchup at team preview, a choke by yours truly, or just plain bad luck and then lost .7%. Twasn't fun.

two wins and two losses and i still ended up with lower GXE than when i started :l

I did though mess up this one guy you might have seen around, slainey, however the replay is private and so I feel like he wouldn't appreciate his malding being made public and shall refrain from sharing the replay. I will defend him though, as it seemed he was just having a bad day and admittedly did lose mostly to 2 speed tie losses and a stone axe miss.



(back to actual metagame stuff)


But onto the actual meat of the matter... stuff I've noticed from the usage stats- trends that I expect may continue, as there hasn't been a tier shift, and the Thundurus-T suspect test was pretty recent.

First off is that, and I can confirm this, Forretress is making a comeback! Combining it's placements from the 1760 and 1630 stats shows that it's got about 9th place in terms of usage. I will say however that y'all suck at using Forre. It's absolutely set-up bait on the sample set, like I know it's got hazards and it's really tempting to consolidate a rocker, spiker, and spinner all in one team slot but for the love of god please use like t-wave or something, the scary Thundurus is gone you can use electric type moves now (also this is the call to action for the tier to bring back bulky waters, they aren't tera sinks anymore)

speaking of forre, here's it's stats...

Screenshot of the Forretress usage stats

For the item slot it's certainly got a lot of variation, with a lot of great options that probably depend on what role it's fulfilling on a team- physical wall w/ lefties and rocky helmet or emergency sweeper check in red card (although I feel like red card + sturdy kinda falls apart due to the existence of more and more hazard stacking teams and hazard leads in general)

The 3.5% usage on overcoat is really weird given how it's already immune to sandstorm, but the high number makes me think it's just people realizing that sturdy ain't gonna do much most of the time and are just clicking overcoat to protect against stun powder from Amoonguss or something similar- it's intentional is what I'm driving at, not a misclick in the builder (which is less likely given how overcoat is a HA and not on by default)

The movesets are pretty varied, with a lot of people clicking volt switch for slow-pivoting and hazards because this guy gets every hazard under the sun. Also hilariously this somehow beats yanmega more often than it gets forced out, not sure how y'all manage to choke THAT hard vs. the most specially weak mon in the tier

Next up is Jirachi.

Unfortunate doesn't even begin

I'll be honest there's just a lot going on here. First up is the existence of Choice Scarf. I know it's good. I know it can be valuable. But I don't respect you if you run Choice Scarf Jirachi (I just now realized that flamingo used CScarf Jirachi in his semi-finals mr.bellibolt match. my bad). Also that cloak sure is covert
In terms of actual usage, Jirachi is the #2 used Pokemon in the tier, so that's something to consider while teambuilding, with Iron Head and Body Slam being things to reasonably expect to come across, so make sure you can either tank the slam, ignore the para, or just outspeed it and OHKO it.


We can ignore Thundy (found dead in miami), take a look at it yourself, but interestingly, contrary to Jirachi where it had a lot of moves being listed with almost all of them being low usage, Thundy's moves were almost all 10% used and above, so you reasonably could expect before it's ban to get hit with one of it's many coverage moves.

Hippo isn't too special, it pretty much always runs the same exact moveset, but interestingly there's a split between whirlwind and roar. Teambuilding preferences I guess? Also, checking out it's check and counters section, it's hippo so it's got a good match-up spread, but but when it gets a losing match-up it really loses, switching out almost every time vs. its losing match-ups of almost exclusively special attackers + iron leaves.

also pretty standard. It's got a pretty good usage rate, being somewhere around 10th-ish combining it's usage in 1760 and 1630. For all of y'all though, PLEASE STOP CLICKING EARTHQUAKE INTO BISHARP WHEN IT HAS A TERA, YOU WILL LOSE ON THE SPOT IF IT'S AN ENDGAME SCENARIO BECAUSE TERA FLYING IS JUST THAT GOOD doktor, turn off my loud text
(also it's only forced out by quagsire...?? i guess tera flying tera blast kinda does that)

also quick side note but have you seen the 1760 usage stats?? those things are kinda messed up, i don't think chansey is on 19% of all top level teams, unless flamingopokeman has been working overtime on the stall agenda. i think it's ordered weirdly, as the raw usage doesn't line up too well with the "ranks" they are placed in

The mimicutie is still going strong, with new developments in item choice: Red Card has officially edged out Life Orb as the most commonly picked item on Mimikyu! I knew y'all would realize that a once per match get-outta-jail free card was good (except against salamence, that guy is a better pick as anti-HO than HO i swear, dual wingbeat is just that good once the ball gets rolling)! Moveset is what pretty much everyone runs, with drain punch being a common coverage option to not lose instantly to Bisharp

Iron Leaves is exactly what you see on ladder- except for one thing. The moveset is almost always the same - except for one move I see being run at 6% usage... Sacred Sword? Indeed, Now you too can threaten an OHKO vs. Cobalion at +2 at any point in the game, regardless of how much they set up Iron Defense boosts, as Sacred Sword ignores stat changes! Also it doesn't lower your defensive stats so those pesky priority users can't pick up revenge kills as easy.

Barraskewda is actually pretty interesting, here lemme show ya...

Barraskrewd'ya over

Now I have to mention the elephant in the room. I cannot defend ANY of y'all who selected Propeller Tail as Barra's ability. At least with shed skin cyclizar you could excuse it as people forgetting to change the ability as the mon only runs regenerator... but Propeller Tail is a Hidden Ability. These people had to consciously, with their own hands, click an optional doubles only ability in the teambuilder.

The items are pretty interesting, with them all being differing levels of damage boosting with that one guy deciding to run HDB.
The stat spreads are all what you'd expect, Adamant nature being the most popular since nothing can outspeed it under rain- but whats this?
Down at the bottom... is a 72/252/0/0/0/184 stat spread? Egads... optimization...
I bet this was cooked up by someone with loads more experience than I in the rain teamstyle, but I did plug it into the damage calc, and it does give a 44% chance to survive a gard moonblast w/ no hazards. Either that or it's someone realizing that they don't need to go ham on the speed since nothing outspeeds a Barraskewda under rain other than other rain mons.
Moves are what you'd expect, but tbh I was expecting to see crunch in there since otherwise you get hardwalled by Iron Leaves, but I'm sure the psychic fangs just covers more mons.

Actually surprising, but not unexpected...

It's not Gardevover by a long shot

Choice Scarf remains the preferred option, as usual, with Choice Specs being a fringe pick as usual. Interesting to see people running modest Garde, but that could just be a thing that I've been outta the loop for. What's catching me off guard here is the sudden uptick in T-bolt usage, which I guess isn't too surprising given how Garde does have a plethora of coverage options it can swap in and out.
Shoutouts to Dr. Elite for winning so many tourny games that he singlehandedly got CM Garde on the radar as a mon you could reasonable run into with enough luck

The 1.405% not running HDB:

anyways it's getting late and I'm losing consciousness so have a great day y'all

 

[Heatranator]

(Skip this if you don't want to see a skill issue)

Hello metagamers, I come to thee to share some slight insights and knowledge that I have gleamed from my laddering and my look at the usage stats for last month- as I imagine that the trends and usage I saw there would be roughly the same as now, minus the Thundurus-T of course.
I unfortunately, despite my best efforts, was not able to make reqs, finding the task absolutely Sisyphean after I reached 68.5% GXE or so. I would win a game, get like .3%, and then lost one immediately after either to a bad matchup at team preview, a choke by yours truly, or just plain bad luck and then lost .7%. Twasn't fun.
View attachment 632809 two wins and two losses and i still ended up with lower GXE than when i started :l

I did though mess up this one guy you might have seen around, slainey, however the replay is private and so I feel like he wouldn't appreciate his malding being made public and shall refrain from sharing the replay. I will defend him though, as it seemed he was just having a bad day and admittedly did lose mostly to 2 speed tie losses and a stone axe miss.



(back to actual metagame stuff)

But onto the actual meat of the matter... stuff I've noticed from the usage stats- trends that I expect may continue, as there hasn't been a tier shift, and the Thundurus-T suspect test was pretty recent.

First off is that, and I can confirm this, Forretress is making a comeback! Combining it's placements from the 1760 and 1630 stats shows that it's got about 9th place in terms of usage. I will say however that y'all suck at using Forre. It's absolutely set-up bait on the sample set, like I know it's got hazards and it's really tempting to consolidate a rocker, spiker, and spinner all in one team slot but for the love of god please use like t-wave or something, the scary Thundurus is gone you can use electric type moves now (also this is the call to action for the tier to bring back bulky waters, they aren't tera sinks anymore)

speaking of forre, here's it's stats...

Screenshot of the Forretress usage stats

View attachment 632810

For the item slot it's certainly got a lot of variation, with a lot of great options that probably depend on what role it's fulfilling on a team- physical wall w/ lefties and rocky helmet or emergency sweeper check in red card (although I feel like red card + sturdy kinda falls apart due to the existence of more and more hazard stacking teams and hazard leads in general)

The 3.5% usage on overcoat is really weird given how it's already immune to sandstorm, but the high number makes me think it's just people realizing that sturdy ain't gonna do much most of the time and are just clicking overcoat to protect against stun powder from Amoonguss or something similar- it's intentional is what I'm driving at, not a misclick in the builder (which is less likely given how overcoat is a HA and not on by default)

The movesets are pretty varied, with a lot of people clicking volt switch for slow-pivoting and hazards because this guy gets every hazard under the sun. Also hilariously this somehow beats yanmega more often than it gets forced out, not sure how y'all manage to choke THAT hard vs. the most specially weak mon in the tier

Next up is Jirachi.

Unfortunate doesn't even begin

View attachment 632811

I'll be honest there's just a lot going on here. First up is the existence of Choice Scarf. I know it's good. I know it can be valuable. But I don't respect you if you run Choice Scarf Jirachi. Also that cloak sure is covert
In terms of actual usage, Jirachi is the #2 used Pokemon in the tier, so that's something to consider while teambuilding, with Iron Head and Body Slam being things to reasonable expect to come across, so make sure you can either tank the slam, ignore the para, or just outspeed it and OHKO it.


We can ignore Thundy (found dead in miami), take a look at it yourself, but interestingly, contrary to Jirachi where it had a lot of moves being listed with almost all of them being low usage, Thundy's moves were almost all 10% used and above, so you reasonably could expect before it's ban to get hit with one of it's many coverage moves.

Hippo isn't too special, it pretty much always runs the same exact moveset, but interestingly there's a split between whirlwind and roar. Teambuilding preferences I guess? Also, checking out it's check and counters section, it's hippo so it's got a good match-up spread, but but when it gets a losing match-up it really loses, switching out almost every time vs. its losing match-ups of almost exclusively special attackers + iron leaves.

also pretty standard. It's got a pretty good usage rate, being somewhere around 10th-ish combining it's usage in 1760 and 1630. For all of y'all though, PLEASE STOP CLICKING EARTHQUAKE INTO BISHARP WHEN IT HAS A TERA, YOU WILL LOSE ON THE SPOT IF IT'S AN ENDGAME SCENARIO BECAUSE TERA FLYING IS JUST THAT GOOD doktor, turn off my loud text
(also it's only forced out by quagsire...?? i guess tera flying tera blast kinda does that)

also quick side note but have you seen the 1760 usage stats?? those things are kinda messed up, i don't think chansey is on 19% of all top level teams, unless flamingopokeman has been working overtime on the stall agenda. i think it's ordered weirdly, as the raw usage doesn't line up too well with the "ranks" they are placed in

The mimicutey is still going strong, with new developments in item choice: Red Card has officially edged out Life Orb as the most commonly picked item on Mimikyu! I knew y'all would realize that a once per match get-outta-jail free card was good (except against salamence, that guy is a better pick as anti-HO than HO i swear, dual wingbeat is just that good once the ball gets rolling)! Moveset is what pretty much everyone runs, with drain punch being a common coverage option to not lose instantly to Bisharp

Iron Leaves is exactly what you see on ladder- except for one thing. The moveset is almost always the same - except for one move I see being run at 6% usage... Sacred Sword? Indeed, Now you too can threaten an OHKO vs. Cobalion at +2 at any point in the game, regardless of how much they set up Iron Defense boosts, as Sacred Sword ignores stat changes! Also it doesn't lower your defensive stats so those pesky priority users can't pick up revenge kills as easy.

Barraskewda is actually pretty interesting, here lemme show ya...

Barraskrewd'ya over

View attachment 632846

Now I have to mention the elephant in the room. I cannot defend ANY of y'all who selected Propeller Tail as Barra's ability. At least with shed skin cyclizar you could excuse it as people forgetting to change the ability as the mon only runs regenerator... but Propeller Tail is a Hidden Ability. These people had to consciously, with their own hands, click an optional doubles only ability in the teambuilder.

The items are pretty interesting, with them all being differing levels of damage boosting with that one guy deciding to run HDB.
The stat spreads are all what you'd expect, Adamant nature being the most popular since nothing can outspeed it under rain- but whats this?
Down at the bottom... is a 72/252/0/0/0/184 stat spread? Egads... optimization...
I bet this was cooked up by someone with loads more experience than I in the rain teamstyle, but I did plug it into the damage calc, and it does give a 44% chance to survive a gard moonblast w/ no hazards. Either that or it's someone realizing that they don't need to go ham on the speed since nothing outspeeds a Barraskewda under rain other than other rain mons.
Moves are what you'd expect, but tbh I was expecting to see crunch in there since otherwise you get hardwalled by Iron Leaves, but I'm sure the psychic fangs just covers more mons.

Actually surprising, but not unexpected...

It's not Gardevover by a long shot

View attachment 632851

Choice Scarf remains the preferred option, as usual, with Choice Specs being a fringe pick as usual. Interesting to see people running modest Garde, but that could just be a thing that I've been outta the loop for. What's catching me off guard here is the sudden uptick in T-bolt usage, which I guess isn't too surprising given how Garde does have a plethora of coverage options it can swap in and out.
Shoutouts to Dr. Elite for winning so many tourny games that he singlehandedly got CM Garde on the radar as a mon you could reasonable run into with enough luck





View attachment 632852

The 1.405% not running HDB:
View attachment 632854

anyways it's getting late and I'm losing consciousness so have a great day y'all

I'm surprised that future sight isn't in jirachi's most used moves, though I guess that's because doom desire is better.
Also, that other 2.5% other item usage on Barra is def me spamming the hell out of choice scarf barra (which tbh, is pretty good. Is really good into rain and outspeeds everything in the meta, including +1 cyclizar)

 

[feen]

Hi, with the survey result and the overwhelming support of a tiering action on Iron Leaves, the council has voted on its future:

With an 80% ban majority, Iron Leaves is now banned from SV RU.
Tagging Marty and dhelmise to implement the changes into the ladder. Thank you very much.

 

[fluff!!]

Hello RarelyUsed citizens, it's 9pm + I'm bored + I'm not tired so here is a post about an unpopular mon I tried out and I believe holds some value in the current metagame. I am talking about...



Item Options: Assault Vest , Heavy-Duty Boots
Viable Abilities: Gooey
Viable Moves: Draco Meteor, Dragon Tail, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Knock Off, Power Whip, Rock Slide, Scald, Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave, Surf, Thunder, Thunderbolt, Toxic
Fringe Moves: Blizzard, Counter, Focus Blast, Weather Ball
Tera Types: Dark, Electric, Fairy, Ghost, Poison, Steel, Water

Example set:
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Gooey
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Knock Off
- Thunderbolt
- Earthquake

56 EVs into speed allow Goodra to outspeed Adamant Crawdaunt and anything below. 252 Special Attack EVs turn Draco Meteor into a fearsome STAB that even resistances cannot tank super well. The rest is dumped into HP for extra bulk. Earthquake lets Goodra hit Fezandipiti, Jirachi and Substitute Raikou reliably.

Goodra can utilize its massive Special Defense coupled with Assault Vest and pure Dragon typing to switch into every special attacker without Psyshock (it's just Armarouge) with minimal risk, including, but not limited to . Tera allows Goodra to switch into other Special Attackers that could potentially threaten it, such as Gardevoir, Enamorus-T. Tera Dark allows Goodra to be immune to Psyshock and all of the Psychic Pokemon's STAB in general. In return, Goodra threatens either a surprisingly powerful Draco Meteor due to its ability to run a SpA boosting nature due to not having to invest into Speed unlike Salamence and Noivern, as well as Knock Off on the Fairies and Jirachi who rely heavily on their items, such as Scarf Gardevoir, Leftovers/Boots Fezandipiti and Leftovers Jirachi.

Outside of Draco Meteor and Knock Off, which are, in my opinion, obligatory moves to use on Goodra, you can customize Goodra with the Tera Type and coverage moves you need to cover certain threats to your team. Dragon Tail in particular allows you to phaze slow Calm Mind sweepers and racks up entry hazard damage.

Goodra has 2 interesting abilities in Sap Sipper and Gooey. Gooey is probably the better one, allowing Goodra to slow down an enemy physical attacker, which can either let Goodra outspeed them if it survives, or if it gets KOed, can let an otherwise slower teammate revenge kill. This is a niche situation, but I believe there is definitely situations where it can be the difference maker.

I heavily recommend running Assault Vest on Goodra coupled with Defog support to truly make it ironclad against Special Attackers hitting Goodra neutrally, such as Gengar and Yanmega. However, if you can't fit that in your team, Boots is still an option (that I haven't tried, no promises).

Goodra fits best on offense teams looking for a special sponge who can put out huge damage numbers in return and can patch holes thanks to its expansive movepool. You may be able to provide Wish support in Balance teams, but it comes at the cost of a bit of reliability.

Example Team


(click the sprites for paste!)

Goodra pairs well with Talonflame, the 2 cover each other's weaknesses quite well and Talonflame brings Defog support. Since we're not running Dragon Tail on Goodra, Encore Jirachi allows us to prevent slow Calm Mind mons from executing their gameplan as long as Jirachi is in the picture, while providing Stealth Rock support and being one of our two pivots. Fezandipiti gives us a win condition with Calm Mind and pairs well with Crawdaunt, our wallbreaker and priority user. Gardevoir gives some speed control and helps patching the otherwise tough Rain matchup.
A few replays to showcase the team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2126729757 vs. Feliburn in his reqs run
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2126926566 finals of a room tour against the #1 player in the leaderboard (there is a LOT of misplaying, tread carefully. I'm not proud of that one at all but hey, I play like an idiot and still win)


So here it is, a little showcase of what Goodra brings in the RU tier. I hope this post gave you some inspiration to try it out, because I truly believe it can carve itself a place in the current metagame.

 

[fluff!!]

Statistics of RUPL XI (Midway point)​

RUPL XI is just a bit past the midway point and I figured I'd talk about stats I find worth to analyze.

Disclaimer: The data sample is still quite small AND Thundurus-T and Iron Leaves (who had insane winrates, to the surprise of nobody) probably skewed some winrates, and by extension, everything said in this post is to be taken with several grains of salt.


Pick & Win rates

Let's go over the Pokemon with a pick rate above 10% and noteworthy win rates.

Frauds:
Cyclizar (42.47% WR)
Hippowdon (36.00% WR)
Rhyperior (33.33% WR)

Broken:
Cobalion (66.67% WR)
Volcanion (69.23% WR)
Enamorus-Therian (57.14% WR)


Cyclizar's winrate could very well be explained by the low sample size, however, this win rate seems to correlate with the argument that Cyclizar can be abused and really struggles to keep hazards off the field against comps built to make its life difficult.
Our fat grounds are definitely having it rough these times, with Krookodile and its 23.44% usage rate also failing to reach 50% WR as well. How much this can be attributed to Thundurus-T packing Grass Knot and the utter dominance of Iron Leaves before their bans, the next weeks will tell us.

Cobalion once again beats the overrated allegations by rocking an incredible 66.67% winrate, proving that it is still worthy of its S rank on the VR, and I expect these numbers to stay consistent throughout the rest of the competition.
Simply the Pokemon with the highest win rate of them all with >10% usage, even surpassing the banned Iron Leaves. Volcanion was already a relatively popular pick as one of, if not the best Balance breakers in the tier with very little safe switchins, and I expect Volcanion to keep rising in usage in the next weeks. Maybe Gastrodon will rise in usage in response to this?
While our current sussy Pokemon has a pretty damn good win rate in RUPL, it is still trailing quite far behind Thundurus-T and Iron Leaves, our last 2 banned deucers, as well as Cobalion and Volcanion. Difficult to use Enamorus-T's stats in RUPL in debates about its possible brokenness, then.


New Meta?

Fezandipiti (7.81% usage, 70% WR)
Palossand (4.69% usage, 83.33% WR)
Bellibolt (3.12% usage, 100% WR)
Gligar (3.12% usage, 100% WR)

Whether these win rates are a fluke due to the low sample size, or the faces of the next metagame coming in the next few weeks/months, further experimentation with them is needed. Keep an eye on them.

 

[FlamingoPokeman]

Bellibolt (3.12% usage, 100% WR)

Not a fluke

 

[Elec-ant1234]

Hey y'all scott here, Tis' I! That's right, I'm back once again (after like 3 posts) to spout the ultimate tech for stopping (almost) EVERY single Calm Mind Sweeper, and even come out of there alive in a winning matchup! But you may not like where this tech takes you...

Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
- Night Shade
- Recover

Behold! The ultimate Calm Mind Sweep Stopper! You do kinda need to have some initiative and switch in on at least the first CM, it probably won't be as effective against a +6+6 Cresselia clicking stored power, so if they look ready to start setting up better hop to it, and quickly. You do kinda resist psychic and shrug off any coverage, so you don't need to worry at all.

But the REAL reason this set does so well is in the ability- Pressure!

What Pressure does against Calm Minders in RU specifically is that it doesn't target their CM (not really an issue as you'll find out), but it limits all of their attacking buttons to being clicked 8 to 12 times max. This means that you can reliably weather the storm vs. CM users, even just switch in on an attack, because eventually over time they'll run out of attacking PP. Additionally, thanks to Night Shade, you can get consistent damage off vs. them, forcing them to spend slack off/ recover PP, which unfortunately doesn't get affected by Pressure, but you've got the firepower to outlast em.

Cosmic Power, interestingly, is also 32 PP, so you can match Calm Mind until both of you run out.


There are, however, two iffy matchups for this set, that just kinda come with the territory.

Suicune! For the reason that suicune also has Pressure, and I think can beat you in the PP stalling war w/ protects and substitutes.

and finally, Fezendipiti. That's right, the Fezendi can beat you just in general thanks to a super fast Taunt that you reasonably shouldn't try and EV around, that lets it set up all the CM's it wants while you're stuck clicking night shade over and over, letting it boost up to unreasonable proportions.


As for the tera, I chose Poison as even though it shares a lot of the same resistances as Psychic, it allows you to become un-Toxicable, and lets you win in the war vs. Stall Teams who try and send out Quagsire, as once you get boosting they can't really stop ya.
Finally just be aware that this set reaches 216 speed, so it is always gonna be faster than most slow bulky mons around.


Have fun fitting this into yer stall teams and such (it's not really a HO mon, it might be able to be fit onto a Balance team)

TLDR, beat Reuniclus every single time by using your own bulky psychic type!

its bulky psychic setup sweepers all the way down...

 

[feen]

Enamorus-Therian is now BANNED

 

[Aqua Jet]

Enamorus-Therian is now BANNED

10-9? Can’t wait for the PR thread

 

[Elec-ant1234]

 

[658Greninja]

Though I’m not an RU regular, I recognize Krookodile as a big winner of the recent RU bans. It no longer needs Gunk Shot to smack Enamorus, letting it more reliable slip on options like Taunt. Its been on the rise for some time now as a reliable rocker + knocker, speed control with scarf, or wallbreaking with band, but the bans certainly helped.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Though I’m not an RU regular, I recognize Krookodile as a big winner of the recent RU bans. It no longer needs Gunk Shot to smack Enamorus, letting it more reliable slip on options like Taunt. Its been on the rise for some time now as a reliable rocker + knocker, speed control with scarf, or wallbreaking with band, but the bans certainly helped.

Dogi is also a bit of a winner, as it no longer has to worry about potential earth powers coming its way from enamorus either I swear with every ban dogi gets stronger and harder to beat by the day. Mon trades too well and feels impossible to switch around, should probably be on the next survey

 

[Flex1ble]

Cyclizar's winrate could very well be explained by the low sample size, however, this win rate seems to correlate with the argument that Cyclizar can be abused and really struggles to keep hazards off the field against comps built to make its life difficult.

Not a regular (but will be soon enough) but I played RU and I mostly played with one Cyclizar team and I mostly foresee this myself. I don't think it's bad, it's just there is so much now within the tier to keep up against.

 

[Plushtoy]

Not a regular (but will be soon enough) but I played RU and I mostly played with one Cyclizar team and I mostly foresee this myself. I don't think it's bad, it's just there is so much now within the tier to keep up against.

Cyclizar is by far the most picked-mon in RU. It had a pick-rate of 34% last month.
If anything, its dominance is overcentralising and making people gravitate to teams extremely hostile to it.

 

[fluff!!]

Just a few thoughts about the projected shifts next month.

Goodra-Hisui could move from UU to RU
Indeedee could move from UU to RU
Weezing-Galar could move from UU to RU


Goodra is already a usable mon (trust me) so I don't see how this could be bad. It's extremely vulnerable to Spikes, which is a problem in an economy where Cyclizar is being targeted from all angles, but Defog is gaining in usage soooo I guess we'll see whether the hazards vulnerability really matters. Regardless, the question is whether Curse sets would be broken or not (thanks Tera). It is very difficult to guess the impact Hoodra would have on the tier.



Just a cheesy HO mon that would push a cheesy playstyle into the spotlight. I hope it won't be that good, Psychic Terrain is already very fringe and I don't think Expanding Force Indeedee would necessarily make a huge difference. Still, we'd be better off without it.



Everyone is hype about Geezing dropping and it's easy to understand why. Defog alone makes it an incredible drop that will reshape the tier, but the fact that it is a Fairy, that Levitate gives us a much needed Ground immunity that completely stops Krookodile, that it blocks Regenerator from Cyclizar with Neutralizing Gas, AND that Mystic Surge protects from ParaSpam and Toxic Chain, I expect Geezing to completely reshape the tier overnight and I'm very excited for its arrival in RU. (Levitate > Neutralizing Gas btw)


post complaining about Yanmega and Blastoise coming soon

 

[BolTingBlazie]

So it seems we are probably due for another survey, so other than the obvious Okidogi what can we expect to see on the survey?

 

[fluff!!]

So it seems we are probably due for another survey, so other than the obvious Okidogi what can we expect to see on the survey?

The Trio of Skillful Gameplay

​

If you have played for any amount of time in RU, tournaments included, you have seen these 3 a LOT. HO is one of the most popular playstyles in the tier and finds great success both in ladder and tournament play ; Yanmega, in particular, is used much more in ladder than in tournament, however.

Before talking about each of them individually, I will cover the one thing they all have in common: They all need 1 turn to be faster than everything, while boosting their damage output. It be Shift Gear, Shell Smash or Throat Spray + Speed Boost. This is probably the most contentious trait of these mons, they completely remove one of the counterplays to offensive powerhouses that is being faster than them. No Choice Scarf will save you. Oh and they also boosted their attack/sp attack at the same time, in case you forgot. Let's now talk about each of them individually.

DISCLAIMER: im flustered


Setup: Shift Gear
Attacks on the: Physical side
Item: Air Balloon, Clear Amulet
Coverage: Gunk Shot, Iron Head, High Horsepower, Temper Flare, Tera Blast [Grass], Tera Blast [Water]
Other Options: Taunt
Tera types: Ground, Grass, Water, Fire, Flying
Every Pokemon that can answer it reliably: Bronzong, Bisharp (most of the time)
Skill needed to pull off: knowing your type chart
What it ordered for dinner: iron head flinches and gunk shot poison

Revavroom's option to boost is Shift Gear, allowing it to both outspeed everything and boost its Attack in the same turn. Air Balloon gives 1 turn against Earthquake users / opposing Revavroom to not explode on the spot. Its best set is Tera Blast Water or Grass, allowing it to run drive over Ground-types that normally answer it. Gunk Shot is a stupidly strong STAB with a 30% chance to poison the foe, just in case it doesn't KO so you still get some reward for throwing your car under the bus. Iron Head can steal you some wins since you're faster than everything, Scarf Jirachi style. Simply send it after a KO against a mon that can't KO it, chip a bit of health off of Slowbro/Amoonguss and you're good to go. Revavroom's issues are that if can struggle to OHKO some defensive mons sometimes (oh no) and it needs Tera to truly beat Grounds. I mean, you could just flinch them once to KO them too, so maybe that's not too big of a deal.



Setup: Shell Smash
Attacks on the: side if feels like attacking on that day
Item: White Herb
Coverage: Surf, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Earthquake, Tera Blast [Electric], Tera Blast [Grass]
Other Options: don't need them
Tera types: Electric, Ghost, Grass
Every Pokemon that can answer it reliably: Assault Vest Dragon Tail Goodra
Skill needed to pull off: about six of them, take it or leave
Anything you want to say before smashing (your shell)?: 79/100/105 bulk btw

Shell Smash allows you to outspeed anything that isn't Scarf Azelf (lol) while giving you a free Nasty Plot and Swords Dance boost just in case. Tera Electric is the most common option, turning Jirachi and Thundurus into a win button while enabling Tera Blast Electric for fat Waters. Tera Ghost gives you an immunity to Mach Punch and a resistance to Slither Wing's First Impression (who is played solely for rking blastoise and it doesnt even work against tera ghost blastoise). This is by far the most matchup fishy of the 3, capable of 6-0ing teams after minimal chip on its checks (AV cyclizar can Dragon Tail it! If your Cyclizar is at full health, that is. if it took 20% of chip though, you better spend that Tera). Blastoise will force Tera out of the opponent, allowing another HO teammate to clean up.



Setup: Throat Spray + Bug Buzz, Protect for Speed Boost
Attacks on the: Special side
Item: Throat Spray
Coverage: Bug Buzz, Air Slash, Ancient Power (beats Talonflame and Moltres), Tera Blast [Electric], Tera Blast [Ground]
Other Options: what
Tera types: Electric, Ground
Every Pokemon that can answer it reliably: Chansey, every other decent special sponge but only 70% of the time
Skill needed to pull off: bring maushold/defog
(editor's note): You haven't felt true hate until you lost because the yanmega was Tera Rock and KOed your 80% Rotom-Heat

The lowest skill one and also the worst one in competitive play because people haven't realized it's a cleaner (hi jugulis). Yanmega has the decency of having poop special bulk, so stuff like Gardevoir can tank a hit and cleanly OHKO back. As always, Tera Electric turns Jirachi and Thundurus into bait. Yanmega has the safest setup of all three, since its boosting moves are either its attacking move or protect, in case it was too difficult to use. This makes it the best of the three at cleaning weakened teams. Air Slash makes it so you always have a chance of winning any game 30% of the time. Anyway, just press the button that does the most damage.



Conclusion

Blastoise is broken, puts insane pressure in the builder AND in-game and is always a handful of chip damage away from being unstoppable (esp if you don't have Tera to handle it). All 3 of these mons makes HO an extremely non-interactive low-skill playstyle that also has easy ways of fishing for haxx thanks to Iron Head Revavroom / Air Slash Yanmega. Please make something happen.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

The Trio of Skillful Gameplay

​

If you have played for any amount of time in RU, tournaments included, you have seen these 3 a LOT. HO is one of the most popular playstyles in the tier and finds great success both in ladder and tournament play ; Yanmega, in particular, is used much more in ladder than in tournament, however.

Before talking about each of them individually, I will cover the one thing they all have in common: They all need 1 turn to be faster than everything, while boosting their damage output. It be Shift Gear, Shell Smash or Throat Spray + Speed Boost. This is probably the most contentious trait of these mons, they completely remove one of the counterplays to offensive powerhouses that is being faster than them. No Choice Scarf will save you. Oh and they also boosted their attack/sp attack at the same time, in case you forgot. Let's now talk about each of them individually.

DISCLAIMER: im flustered


Setup: Shift Gear
Attacks on the: Physical side
Item: Air Balloon, Clear Amulet
Coverage: Gunk Shot, Iron Head, High Horsepower, Temper Flare, Tera Blast [Grass], Tera Blast [Water]
Other Options: Taunt
Tera types: Ground, Grass, Water, Fire, Flying
Every Pokemon that can answer it reliably: Bronzong, Bisharp (most of the time)
Skill needed to pull off: knowing your type chart
What it ordered for dinner: iron head flinches and gunk shot poison

Revavroom's option to boost is Shift Gear, allowing it to both outspeed everything and boost its Attack in the same turn. Air Balloon gives 1 turn against Earthquake users / opposing Revavroom to not explode on the spot. Its best set is Tera Blast Water or Grass, allowing it to run drive over Ground-types that normally answer it. Gunk Shot is a stupidly strong STAB with a 30% chance to poison the foe, just in case it doesn't KO so you still get some reward for throwing your car under the bus. Iron Head can steal you some wins since you're faster than everything, Scarf Jirachi style. Simply send it after a KO against a mon that can't KO it, chip a bit of health off of Slowbro/Amoonguss and you're good to go. Revavroom's issues are that if can struggle to OHKO some defensive mons sometimes (oh no) and it needs Tera to truly beat Grounds. I mean, you could just flinch them once to KO them too, so maybe that's not too big of a deal.



Setup: Shell Smash
Attacks on the: side if feels like attacking on that day
Item: White Herb
Coverage: Surf, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Earthquake, Tera Blast [Electric], Tera Blast [Grass]
Other Options: don't need them
Tera types: Electric, Ghost, Grass
Every Pokemon that can answer it reliably: Assault Vest Dragon Tail Goodra
Skill needed to pull off: about six of them, take it or leave
Anything you want to say before smashing (your shell)?: 79/100/105 bulk btw

Shell Smash allows you to outspeed anything that isn't Scarf Azelf (lol) while giving you a free Nasty Plot and Swords Dance boost just in case. Tera Electric is the most common option, turning Jirachi and Thundurus into a win button while enabling Tera Blast Electric for fat Waters. Tera Ghost gives you an immunity to Mach Punch and a resistance to Slither Wing's First Impression (who is played solely for rking blastoise and it doesnt even work against tera ghost blastoise). This is by far the most matchup fishy of the 3, capable of 6-0ing teams after minimal chip on its checks (AV cyclizar can Dragon Tail it! If your Cyclizar is at full health, that is. if it took 20% of chip though, you better spend that Tera). Blastoise will force Tera out of the opponent, allowing another HO teammate to clean up.



Setup: Throat Spray + Bug Buzz, Protect for Speed Boost
Attacks on the: Special side
Item: Throat Spray
Coverage: Bug Buzz, Air Slash, Ancient Power (beats Talonflame and Moltres), Tera Blast [Electric], Tera Blast [Ground]
Other Options: what
Tera types: Electric, Ground
Every Pokemon that can answer it reliably: Chansey, every other decent special sponge but only 70% of the time
Skill needed to pull off: bring maushold/defog
(editor's note): You haven't felt true hate until you lost because the yanmega was Tera Rock and KOed your 80% Rotom-Heat

The lowest skill one and also the worst one in competitive play because people haven't realized it's a cleaner (hi jugulis). Yanmega has the decency of having poop special bulk, so stuff like Gardevoir can tank a hit and cleanly OHKO back. As always, Tera Electric turns Jirachi and Thundurus into bait. Yanmega has the safest setup of all three, since its boosting moves are either its attacking move or protect, in case it was too difficult to use. This makes it the best of the three at cleaning weakened teams. Air Slash makes it so you always have a chance of winning any game 30% of the time. Anyway, just press the button that does the most damage.



Conclusion

Blastoise is broken, puts insane pressure in the builder AND in-game and is always a handful of chip damage away from being unstoppable (esp if you don't have Tera to handle it). All 3 of these mons makes HO an extremely non-interactive low-skill playstyle that also has easy ways of fishing for haxx thanks to Iron Head Revavroom / Air Slash Yanmega. Please make something happen.

Okidogi, Blastoise and Yanmega as well as Revavroom are definitely at the forefront. I kind of feel like okidogi might get suspected first as it is the most straightforward case of a mon being too strong and having very limited switchins kind of like Iron Hands every time UU freed it.

The other 3 definitely are issues too though in a more matchup fishy sense and are definitely problematic too, and I see where you are coming from.

 

[FlamingoPokeman]

I'm writing this to demonstrate that Slowbro is not broken and is very easy to build around and account for in games. Sure, it can be an annoying element at times given it has access to multiple great tools like Regenerator, Slack Off, Scald and Thunder Wave, but it is incredibly slow and overly reliant on Tera to eliminate the dual-typing it has that is, quite frankly, mediocre in this meta.

Typical Slowbro Builds​

Slowbro 1: CM​	Slowbro 2: TWave​	Slowbro 3: IronPress​
Slowbro @ Heavy-Duty Boots Ability: Regenerator EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD IVs: 0 Atk Tera Type: Fairy Bold Nature - Scald - Psyshock / Psychic Noise - Calm Mind - Slack Off	Slowbro @ Heavy-Duty Boots Ability: Regenerator EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD IVs: 0 Atk Tera Type: Fairy Bold Nature - Scald - Future Sight / Psychic Noise / Body Press - Thunder Wave - Slack Off	Slowbro @ Heavy-Duty Boots Ability: Regenerator EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD IVs: 0 Atk Tera Type: Poison / Fairy Calm Nature - Scald - Body Press - Iron Defense - Slack Off

Okay, looking at Slowbro and the sets provided we can see some recurring themes, namely the two below;
- Slowbro always runs Scald and Slack Off, while also typically running another STAB of choice in Psyshock or Psychic Noise.
- Slowbro typically defaults to running Max HP / Max+ Defense, though it should be noted that they can drop some Defense investment to speed creep other slow stuff like Quagsire / Palossand. The IronPress set I provided can also commit to a different split.

Okay, we've established some generic background regarding the options available for Slowbro to use, and we (hopefully by now) understand that Slowbro is often slotted onto teams with a core of other bulky mons with longevity such as Cyclizar, Jirachi, Moltres and Okidogi (Drain + Lefties is longevity, don't @ me). This kind of fat team structure can do wonders when paired with offensive options, creating very balanced teams that matchup well into all sorts of structures in the meta, but I don't think we should discredit how much counterplay there is to this safer and more conservative style can be. Let's discuss the counterplay available:

Offensive Pressure:
Slowbro is notably fat in the physical department, with a 95/110 split that allows it to eat unboosted neutral hits incredibly well. On the flip side, though, Slowbro has only 80 Special Defense and is notably weak to Bug, Dark, Electric, Ghost and Grass, of which we have several great options to choose from, as well as having generally strong Special Attackers such as:
- - - - - - - - | All very strong offensive options that are incredibly easy to slot onto teams. While none of these really want to switch into a Slowbro once it's already in, they all can pressure it into either using Tera or hard switching once they get onto the field, which often allows for them to get setup. Again, none of these want to eat an attack on the way in, but that is true of most offensive mons and you have to pilot them with consideration.

Defensive / Support Pressure:
Balance is generally a good structure in this meta, having the tools necessary to matchup into the (over)abundance of offensive options. While Slowbro is often found on Balance / BO, there are generally other options to build around as well, most of which can pressure opposing Slowbros:
- - - - - - | Fairly standard support mons that also have utility on a lot of structures, these all have means of annoying Slowbro by means of encoring a setup, phazing it out, taunting it, tricking it a Scarf or giving it status such as Toxic. Most of these can take a Scald on the switch and be fine with the burn damage, while Slowbro doesn't often run much to threaten them back and is usually forced out by their presence. If the Slowbro player is great at the game, they might Psyshock the incoming Cyclizar or Thunder Wave the support mon in front of them, but there is a lot of pressure on it to get the plays right or you could hurt yourself over the course of a game.

So, the current meta has options that can use Slowbro as setup fodder and options that can hinder/shut down setup variants of Slowbro. What does this mean for the blob? Well, it's still a very good mon, arguably A rank or higher given it does have annoying characteristics and promotes very annoying structures... but by no means is this thing broken to the extent the rest of RUBL was. It will win games if piloted well, but that is true of anything. It will lose games if you misplay it, but that is true of anything.
I don't think saying "learn to build / learn to play" is a great thing for people seeking genuine answers or opinions on stuff like this, but to an extent we need to acknowledge the current iteration of RU is really chaotic and offensive, and Slowbro happens to generally be good into metas like this, but it's not centralizing by any means. If you load a team with 4 or more Physically oriented sweepers, you will likely think Slowbro is broken. If you don't acknowledge the blob as a potential annoyance in preview, you will likely think Slowbro is broken. If you load Rain and can't get a handful of predicts right... you get it.

Slowbro is being suspected in NU right now, but NU doesn't have nearly the extent of counterplay to it that we do.
Slowbro scored a 3.14 on the qualified survey, though that was when Enamorus-Therian and Iron Leaves were around, so I can see it getting a higher score because of the loss of two good options that matched into it well. However, rain in general has gotten much less usage, so maybe people have recognized Slowbro as a deterrent to a playstyle and have accounted for it in the builder more...
Slowbro has a record of 33-30 in RUPL, which is just north of 50%. Win rate isn't a great stat in general, to me, but is still quantitative data that shows it isn't winning by a significant margin, unlike some RUBL mons like Iron Leaves and Thundurus-Therian were.
Slowbro has a record of 4-10 in RUGL, which some might laugh at given it's the 'farm league' but still is relevant to acknowledge, especially when you consider RUGL games have been skewed towards offensive builds.
Scald is a general argument for it being broken, but we have the better version in Steam Eruption Volcanion, which lacks longevity but has significantly better breaking power and utility. Plus, Scald is generally kinda broken regardless of who is clicking it.

Anyway, I think the arguments for it being not broken are more reasonable than people suggest, but I still have disdain for the way certain notable members of the community will defend their points. If you got something out of this, cool, if not, cool. I had fun writing it and think we can all acknowledge the statistics don't really support it being broken, nor do we have limited options to beat it 1v1 or use it as setup fodder, but whatever. Hopefully this is based.

Anyway, some closing thoughts since I'm here:
Blastoise and Revavroom invite unhealthy HO structures to the tier, but neither are inherently broken and I'm not sure we solve the problem by banning them. Sure, they do far less good for the tier than they do bad, but I don't like the idea of banning either without some better data and arguments being presented.
Bellibolt is still incredibly relevant, 7-0 in RUPL (RIP my undefeated streak, what a game).
The community should strive to be better.

 

[Feliburn]

I'm not fully on board with the Slowbro is broken train, but the post above does a wonderful job at making it look that way.

The main issue about the offensive mons listed is that they can lose to Slowbro easily if it manages to get a Calm Mind off, which happens in every single game. The way these interactions go is: Bro gets a boost vs something as the offensive mon switches in, they both trade around 50% vs each other, but Slowbro switches out and regens it out, while the offensive breaker will most likely faint the next time this interaction happens. The exceptions to this are the trick mons (Zoro & Gengar who still risk getting hit on the switch, Gardevoir is included here, not sure why it's on the defensive or support part besides trying to Trace Regen and do nothing vs a bro besides tricking it) and an Armarouge that will most likely have to tera to not lose to Scald while setting up alongside it.

The only viable defensive options listed here are Jirachi & Muk. Jirachi can Encore a CM or Slack Off (not my favorite way to beat it, but 8 PP Slack Off is easier to punish this gen with Encore), while Muk can just spam Knock Off Poison Touch (hard loses to bro if it's Tera Poison). Empoleon has to run Haze which is fine, but it's still a do nothing attempt at beating it in actual gameplay. Slowbro will most likely fish for Scald burns vs Empoleon, and then it's just a matter of time before Empoleon is handled. If you are clicking Haze to get one of the previously mentioned offensive mons in, then the interaction I already explained will always happen. Fezandipiti is a funny case, because it loses to Covert Cloak or Tera Poison Psyshock but it threatens other sets. Volcanion doesn't seem like a defensive way of beating Slowbro, since it just Taunts and fishes for a status while Slowbro can just click the psychic stab 3 times or so with no real way of recovering. If it's tera dark Fire Spin Volcanion then it's an epic cteam. Also I don't get the Slowbro Scald vs Steam Eruption Volcanion comparison.

Dragon Tail Bike is also very funny vs set up Bro (I'm not even going to argue against the Twave set here), since it's basically a regen battle, and if you have spikes with this set then you are actually beating it, but you also become set up bait vs tera fairy sets or even a last mon Slowbro situation (this is up in the air if you played fine and have a breaker that can handle with that last).

I'm actually shocked Bellibolt was not mentioned here, as one of the best ways at handling Slowbro is forcing a tera with Status, and having a mon that can break tera poison (any other tera will get hit with Toxic and then it's easier to beat). Any strong ground or psychic type + a toxic mon will always threaten Slowbro and hinder how much it can do to a team.

Okidogi is also one of the best mons to use vs Slowbro, as it's one of the best switchins vs it, and just hitting it with a Knock Off + the Toxic Chain risk does enough in actual gameplay.

I could list way too much, like Slither Wing, Wo-Chien, Bisharp that can all hit it really hard and bait the tera, or even outlast them altogether in Wo-Chien's case, and a mon that punishes the common teras such as Krookodile or even a Barraskewda that appreciates Slowbro not resisting Liquidation.

tldr use status and punish status immune teras, but bro is still crazy annoying and it's probably broken who knows

 

[LBN]

- - - - - - - - |

So, the current meta has options that can use Slowbro as setup fodder and options that can hinder/shut down setup variants of Slowbro. What does this mean for the blob? Well, it's still a very good mon, arguably A rank or higher given it does have annoying characteristics and promotes very annoying structures... but by no means is this thing broken to the extent the rest of RUBL was.

I honestly adore mentioning all these offensive checks and 8 of them are ohkod by thunder wave, or lose to cm variants when the mon who's job it is to come in first comes in first aside from trick zoro / gengar who again, cant come in safely.

Not going to mention anything else from this post besides these parts as part as Feli did an excellent job of showing how flimsy these arguments are, but I'll specifically mention the part of "by no means as broken as the rest of RUBL were" That's the point. The entire point is banning the most broken elements first, of course slowbro won't be as broken as hydreigon or comfey thats why they got nuked first. The most basic rule of tiering is not voting based on what your personal metric of "too much" is based off of whats already gone. Imagine if OU voters voted dnb on baxcalibur because it isnt as broken as annihilape, that logic is both flawed and counterintuitive.

Moving on to discussion thats productive so i'm not beating a horse so dead it makes BDSP look like a carnival, I'll move on to discussing the prospects of a next slate. Personally, I don't find the next suspect candidates particularly urgent, so we can take our time pumping a survey out to gauge thoughts on 5 pokemon mentioned from previous survey.

All 5 of these either were present on the previous slate, or received noteworthy mention in the extras section for action to be taken on them. While under normal circumstances, I'd argue to swing on Slowbro I've seen multiple dissenting opinions on what should be struck first, and I think a slate would be a good way to gauge this. Strictly personally, I'd wager against going for slowbro first, and find blastoise revavroom or okidogi as more tantalizing targets. Slowbro is oppressive and stupid for many reasons, but those 3 are more glaring issues in my eyes. Jirachi is here because it got mentioned enough to be noted in the others section, and I look forward to seeing it get the 2 i think it deserves. Reuniclus is excluded as i've seen practically zero support for it after the cope of the CM psychics exploding in the early weeks of RUPL, but I've seen enough Jirachi support/hatred to justify it's inclusion. I would like to see a suspect commence and conclude before the end of the month though, as while the projected shifts aren't expected to give us anything too obscene, I'd rather strike while the iron is hot.

 

[FlamingoPokeman]

I wasn't planning on responding or elaborating further, but it seems that the quantitative, fact-driven arguments seem to have gotten lost in the shuffle for some reason.
To reiterate in a manner that is hopefully easier to digest - Slowbro is good, in fact it's very good, but;
- Is overly reliant on Tera to beat a majority of its checks (Poison beats x, Fairy beats Y, Nothing beats x and y). Nothing particularly wrong with using Tera if you can swing a game or matchup, of course, but you do have to acknowledge it as being pretty hoggish.
- Needs team support to prevent it from being abused (As Feli mentioned, we can argue hypothetical game states all day, but Regenerator alone isn't enough to quantify it as being able to come in and out several times. Hazard Stack negates some/all of Regenerator against Cloak sets, Turn spam prevents it from getting momentum on boots sets, etc. A lot of structures can reasonably manage the Regenerator cores you see Slowbro on)
- 4MSS. Yes, Scald and Slack are mandatory. But, you want all of a Pyschic STAB, CM, Thunder Wave and/or Body Press. Thunder Wave is probably the most spammable, but you hate clicking it into teams with a decent status absorber like Cyclizar (doesn't love Paralysis, of course, but doesn't hate it into some matchups) or clicking it instead of an attack against something that gets Taunt.

I appreciate Feli commenting in the manner he did, though I think our opinions just differ too much to see a common ground beyond "it's at minimum very good". I understand you can reference 'x' matchup and 'y' game state, but again, I just don't believe there is sufficient evidence of Slowbro winning games otherwise thought to be unwinnable.
LBN, in typical fashion, takes snippets and manipulates it to make himself appear smarter... at the cost of diminishing the other person? I hate how this person argues lol.

Anyway, if Slowbro were to get put on a survey, I'd be interested to see what people actually are willing to review it as. I think the tier is clearly chaotic and if we get rid of Slowbro we lose significant counterplay to Offense, although Offense is so... well, offensive that it kinda just works even with Slowbro existing.

tldr you have 92 options flagged RU|NUBL|NU, and dozens more flagged PUBL|PU|ZUBL|ZU that are viable in this meta. I don't think Slowbro is demanding you run a certain core or structure to specifically counter it in the builder, so I don't think it is broken.

 

[Master Chief]

I appreciate the effort into making the posts and actually attempting to argue your case. However, there are several things your posts are ignoring about slowbro and how it plays in game and some of the arguments seem fallacious to me so in my attempt 'to be better', I'll break down why some of things are being taken in a vacuum. As a preface, I personally wouldn't be in favour of action on slowbro currently but it's a bit disingenous to say it's not warping the meta and even building.

Firstly I want to point out that the argument that slowbro has a bad defensive typing is firstly extremely silly. Yea it has weaknesses sure, but it has a whole slew of good resists and fat waters/psychics will never not be good defensively. Slowbro has incredible defensive compression checking fights/waters/fires/opposing psychics/lots of grounds. Along those lines when you mention slowbro is a tera hog, it’s really not because the slowbro user doesn’t have to tera because well it is often not the only wincon on a team. But for the opponents sake, you need to be able to pressure it pre tera, have a way to properly revenge kill it post tera, and keep checks in line for other potential wincons that can tera. The option that slowbro can tera though is what makes it difficult to play around. When you mention the argument that slowbro doesn’t win games on its own, that’s actually true but you’re ignoring the fact that because it can be incredibly difficult to properly stop late game, it opens up avenues for other mons to tera and win late game which also makes it broken. You can argue that this isn’t only true for slowbro and I agree with you, but slowbros longevity paired with the lack of good switchins to scald and psychic moves is what makes it annoying or difficult to play against.

Secondly, what mon ‘abuses’ slowbro. Abuse is when a mon freely switches in and then sets up or disrupts the opponents team. Zarude for example was a good abuser of dual stab slowbro because it could use it to set up and knock other shit. But I actually can’t tell what in the current meta ‘abuses slowbro’. Slowbro does require team support to do well but equally also lets its team mates shine by spreading status; this argument doesn’t diminish slowbros centralisation.

Thirdly the 4MSS seems really arbitrary as slowbro really doesn’t have this problem compared to a billion other mons that actually do. It runs its 4 standard moves very effectively. It can trade cm for twave but that normally does something else entirely on a team. Slowbro really doesn’t need much else to function. You mention cycle as a switch but +1 psyshock does about 75 which after rocks means the cycle is really low and can struggle to actually check bro properly in the game or really do anything barring a weak attempt at phasing.

Lastly I think it’s a mistake to assume that teams don’t need to actually build with slowbro in mind. Having a way to beat it is mandatory for a good team but importantly you need a way to beat it pre and post tera. Catching it with status is best but the fact that its existence can enable secondary wincons and sometimes conservative gameplay is what makes it annoying. I wouldn’t take action on it yet as I said but these arguments are definitely not fully fleshed and thought out to argue why it’s not broken