Resource SS OU Viability Rankings

[Clem]

art by tiki | VR OP credit goes to PK Gaming | thread run by Clementine​

Welcome to the third official (first post-DLC 2) SS OU Viability Rankings thread. In this thread, we as a community will be ranking every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a tier list for the entire metagame, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense, defense, and supportive presences in the metagame within this thread. For example, Slowbro can be ranked in the A+ tier as a supportive presence, Spectrier can be ranked in the A+ as an offensive presence, and Toxapex can be ranked in the A+ tier as a defensive presence. While these three examples can also be found in the initial rankings, the viability of Pokemon and their roles within the metagame can and will change over time, so we will be sure to keep an open mind to this as well and adjust the thread accordingly during each update.

Finally, there will be a council of experienced players who will discuss and vote on the ranking of Pokemon. Depending on how the metagame is developing, we could update the thread every couple of weeks or every month+. Please note that your posts still very much matter and will be factored in to what we discuss and the discussions themselves. This thread is nothing without the posters and every informed opinion that is shared is considered a valuable contribution in my eyes, so do not hesitate to post if you know the metagame well and understand the forum rules. The council will consist of the following users:

• Clementine

SS OU Ranking Tier List

S Rank:

S Rank

Landorus-Therian

S- Rank

Dragapult

Heatran

Melmetal

Weavile

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Clefable

Ferrothorn

Garchomp

Kartana

Slowking-Galar

Tapu Lele

Tornadus-Therian

Urshifu-R

Zapdos

A Rank

Buzzwole

Dragonite

Rotom-Wash

Slowbro

Tapu Koko

Toxapex

Tyranitar

Volcanion

A- Rank

Barraskewda

Blacephalon

Corviknight

Excadrill

Gastrodon

Ninetales-Alola

Pelipper

Rillaboom

Slowking

Tapu Fini

Victini

Volcarona

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Arctozolt

Blaziken

Magnezone

Moltres-Galar

Seismitoad

Zapdos-Galar

Zeraora

B Rank

Aegislash

Blissey

Cloyster

Crawdaunt

Hawlucha

Hippowdon

Hydreigon

Mew

Nidoking

Scizor

Skarmory

B- Rank

Bisharp

Celesteela

Nihilego

Reuniclus

Tapu Bulu

C Rank:

C+ Rank

Dracozolt

Gengar

Jirachi

Kingdra

Kommo-o

Mandibuzz

Regieleki

Rotom-Heat

Suicune

Swampert

Tangrowth

Thundurus-Therian

Torkoal

Venusaur

C Rank

Conkeldurr

Cresselia

Keldeo

Mamoswine

Marowak-Alola

Latias

Latios

Terrakion

C- Rank

Avalugg

Azumarill

Alakazam

Amoonguss

Blastoise

Cobalion

Darmanitan

Ditto

Glastrier

Hatterene

Haxorus

Moltres

Necrozma

Omastar

Polteageist

Porygon2

Primarina

Quagsire

Shedinja

Shuckle

Togekiss

Toxtricity

Xatu

Zarude

Rules - Updated as of 11/30/2020

• Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted and infracted if it is a repeat issue. Expand on your opinion with actual analysis showing understanding of the metagame and perhaps bringing a unique perspective to the conversation.
• Absolutely no flaming, personal attacks, or general idiocy will be tolerated. Part of this is under moderator discretion and please know that posting in this thread is a privilege, not a right. You'll get warned initially if it is not something overly malicious, but harsher punishments can and will come with repeated behavior or severe offenses.
• Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. There needs to be more substance than just this. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
• When nominating a Pokemon to move from one rank to another, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse. I can assure you that the VR Council already knows the obvious qualities and we are far more interested in understanding why you believe it has increased or decreased in viability.
• Unrelated discussion such as talk of (potential) suspects and unproductive one liners that do not greatly contribute to discussion will be deleted. If this becomes a recurring issue for any particular user, then it could lead to an infraction. If you are unsure where to post something, feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord. Moreover, if you have a general question, then odds are it belongs in the SQSA, not here.
• Being OU by usage alone does not guarantee a ranking. We touched on usage not being the sole reason behind viability of anything before, but this is very true here as a lot of things accumulate ladder usage despite not being the best option. Do not mistake the correlation between usage and viability as stronger than it actually is. If you have any further questions about this, please start a conversation with me on here or discord instead of posting it in this thread.
• When new Pokemon, items, abilities, and/or anything else relevant to the OU metagame are released, please hold off on discussing the ranking of the new Pokemon or the rankings of Pokemon that are impacted by these developments until there is approval to discuss the matter by an OU Moderator in this thread.
• Failure to follow these rules after warning(s) will result in an infraction or possibly a ban depending on the severity of the offenses.
• If you are nominating a Pokemon to be ranked (meaning it was previously unranked), then you need to provide replays of it being used in the metagame and you also should go out of your way to be as thorough as possible in explaining why it has a niche in the metagame (Example of GOOD UR Nomination) -- a vast majority of nominations have been of poor quality historically and we reserve the right to revoke nomination privileges from thread posters at any point in time. If you are in doubt, then feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord prior to nominating a Pokemon and I will give you honest feedback on the post.

Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these Pokemon will be deleted (or nominations of these Pokemon will be removed)

• None (for now)

I am hoping for a productive discussion to take place in this thread throughout the generation. I am looking forward to seeing the metagame develop in front of our eyes; I find this to be a very cool prospect and it is one of the main reasons why I elect to run this thread. With this said, I am still only one person and our moderation team only consists of so many people, so try not to make our lives too hard here...post intelligently, lurk before commenting if you are new, and do not expect everything to be moderated super closely 24/7. We are all volunteering our time and effort to maintain threads like these, so we expect a certain degree of respect and understanding of this.

 

[Tungdil]

It looks like my comment is the first nomination.

Corviknight

A- to A
I think the VR doesn't reflect the importance of Corviknight. It's a solid check to dangerous threats like and . Besides being arguably the second-best Defogger in the tier.

Gengar

C+ to B-
It's a niche pick, but if you compare stats with 's, you'll see that is better. Moreover, the Poison type adds a lot of useful resistances. The difference between the two of course is that Gengar has a bad ability. But in my opinion, it should gain more attention, mainly the Choice Scarf set.

The C- sub ranking is a mess, I suggest removing some Pokemon.
, , C- to UR. I can't see these three surviving a tier full of U-Turns, Earthquake, and Close Combat. And I never see them anyway.

 

[cyberacc]

It looks like my comment is the first nomination.



A- to A
I think the VR doesn't reflect the importance of Corviknight. It's a solid check to dangerous threats like and . Besides being arguably the second-best Defogger in the tier.


C+ to B-
It's a niche pick, but if you compare stats with 's, you'll see that is better. Moreover, the Poison type adds a lot of useful resistances. The difference between the two of course is that Gengar has a bad ability. But in my opinion, it should gain more attention, mainly the Choice Scarf set.

The C- sub ranking is a mess, I suggest removing some Pokemon.
, , C- to UR. I can't see these three surviving a tier full of U-Turns, Earthquake, and Close Combat. And I never see them anyway.

Corviknight should move nowhere. The Mon is at most a must have on Stall teams and is one of the most exploitable walls in the tier. Its' terribly prone to chip, its' Body Press is mostly used to revenge Weavile and Lele can and will at any point click either Future Sight or just brute force it with Stealth Rock up. The Mon is good but with how modern SwSh plays it is nowhere near the value it was back during CG. Most good teams are often built to do Corviknight's job without having to be Corviknight, offense and balance would much rather fit another Steel type that dosen't have the propensity for passivity that Corviknight so regularly forces.

Gengar brings a whole litany of issues to the builder that Blacephalon makes up for with raw damage and intimidating stabs or by completely flipping the match in the favour of the user with its hard to account for sets. The power it brings is lackluster, the speed tier is entirely moot due to the benchmark sitting at 350, the targets it tricks are not nearly as good as the ones that Blacephalon nails and the job it does is done better by any of the ghosts sitting higher up in the VR, and the VR itself already has a litany of issues I take offense to. Gengar forces you to run away from every single Knock off in the tier, while being weak to Future Sight, forces you to slot more partners to make up for its weaknesses, does negligible damage to what it is supposed to kill (and often fails to do) and the output you get for the effort in teambuilding is not at all worth the dedication required. At most you see it as an arbitrary "need poison stab that is not GKing 6th that might also revenge kill Pult". The Mon has its uses but B- it most certainly has not earned.

 

[Delibird Heart]

Hey everyone, been a while since I posted about gen 8. I return this time to attend to an unfinished business I had going on with this Viability Ranking thread; Right before Scarlet & Violet dropped, I made a big nom on the old VR thread, which was set to get a last slate before it was closed, which sadly never happened. So I'm here now to nom this mon again.

Sandaconda : UR -> C-/C

I'm not gonna go too indepth right there because I already went to great length explaining why I think why conda can be a good pick in SS ou on the old VR thread, so I'll simply write a short explanation of what it does, then give you links to all the previous posts.

The set I wanna talk about is mostly this one :

Sandaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Glare
- Stealth Rock
- Rest

Sandaconda's biggest boon is having access to Glare, a very spammable 100% accurate status move that paralyzes the opponent, and due to being a normal type move, also works on ground types. While electric types can still block it, out of all the viable electric types in gen 8 (Zeraora, Koko, Magnezone, Rotom and Zapdos) only two of them (Zapdos and Rotom) can stay in on Sandaconda, as the other three fear Earthquake. This move is very strong and was part of why Zygarde had to go.

Secondly, Sandaconda's defensive profile is very decent (72/125/70), and allows it to function as a blanket check to a lot of offensive mons in the tier, paralyzing those it can't outright beat or force out. While his physical defense is higher, you prefer to invest in special defense, similarly to its bigger cousins Lando-T and Hippowdon, as mono ground matches up better against most special threats than physical ones (Rilla, Weavile and Urshifu can all hit you with extremely powerful stabbed super effective moves), though his naturally high physdef still allows it to put in work versus some other mons. All in all, it's a defensive rocker that can spread paralysis and checks Heatran, Volcarona, Tapu Koko, Zerarora, Slowking-Galar, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Dracozolt, and to a lesser extent Blacephalon and Dragapult.

Last but not least, while conda lacks the reliable recovery offered by Slack Off, he does have a tool to restore health and avoid losing to chip : Rest + Shed Skin. While not the most reliable, it gives you some longevity, and allows you to freely absorb status and sit on status-reliant defensive mons such as Ferrothorn, Clef, the aforementioned defensive ground duo, Corviknight, Tornadus-T, Chansey/Blissey which have no real way to harm you.

Sandaconda's other ability Sand Spit is also worth mentioning. When combined with an Eject Button, it can allow Sandaconda to serve as a secondary sand setter for an aggressive sand team, getting sand up and switching out to your Excadrill in one turn on a predicted pivot move or weak attack.

If you want to see the full length of the original discussion that this nomination spanned, I invite you to read these posts:
A replay compilation featuring Sandaconda being successfully used in mid-high elo play
original nom
answering subsequent arguments against the nom
another post going more indepth about why sandaconda should be considered

Another thing worth noting is that I peaked #8 on the ladder right before the end of the gen (and climbed back to #5 after getting back into the gen lately) while exclusively using a Sandaconda team (link to the rmt and proof of peak) and while that is not in itself proof that the mon is good, it just adds foundation to my claims.

Thanks for reading, have a nice day :)

 

[NeonJolteonWasUsed]

A+ -> S-

This Ranking has been a long time coming for me, and I've wanted to gush about how much I love Zapdos for a while now, so I figured I'd finally get my thoughts down and how I think Zapdos has officially cemented itself as the biggest bird in the current Sword and Shield Metagame. if you don't count Landorus which, is a Flying type, but is it really a BIRD?...really makes you think...

I won't go TOO in depth on more obvious things, as I'm sure you're all very aware of what already makes Zapdos A+ worthy.

The more I think about Zapdos, the more I find myself saying "what can't this Pokemon do?" Even its admittedly fairly bad Defog set can dictate the turn flow of entire games by its mere presence, let alone 3 Attacks, and the more Recent Toxic 2 Attacks, and niche Specs sets. Something very important to also note is that Solo Melm Bulky Offenses tend to have quite a bit trouble into this thing, which have been becoming increasingly more common going off of the last few weeks of SSPL, and not just because of its annoying offensive presence, but indirectly as well because of how reliant they can be on Melmetal scaring things out to keep it alive and from getting statused, the mere existance of Zapdos allows you to play a lot less afraid into those kind of teams because of just how easy it is to fall back on into most Melmetal sets and force a dead turn with Paralysis, swinging the game back in your favor.
Even in matchups where it's not checking much of anything (which is very rare might I add) Static is such a nice looming threat to have for punishing random U-Turns that tend to get thrown around trigger happy in such a tier so focused on positioning, all while having a Pivot Move of its own that isn't punishable by contact, and cannot be blocked by the top grounds long term is massive in both progress making and momentum shifting.

I'd be hard pressed to tell you a team where I have not at least considered Zapdos multiple times in building, and even when I have used it, I have hardly if ever found a game where Zapdos felt like a sub-optimal team option with just how often there's still something it can do on a game to game basis in a way that's so much more dynamic than most of the Pokemon in A+ can muster, whether that be punishing a stray U-Turn, chipping down and through Grounds, posing its own offensive Threat, or assisting in positioning around specific threats no other Pokemon can boast to check with such efficiency as it, Zapdos has earned, and deserves a spot among the big leagues up in S-.

 

[pulsar512b]

promised a long post, happening

first, low-hanging fruit. get this unusable shit out of here
-> UR

none of these are at all really usable, at least the rest of C/C- I can kinda see.

now to go through and pass judgement on each mon from the top down
S -> A+/A
It's just not S worthy. It's only really running spd and sd and while both of those sets are good, it's worse than the mons in S- and A+ and some of A.

S- -> S+/S

This mon is just insane. modest specs pult is arguably the single best mon in the tier, even ignoring it's potential to run DD or mixed twave hex sets. Most of it's answers are only barely avoiding 2hkos from modest pult, and a single spd drop can spell disaster. Meanwhile, it's also very fast and it's typing has a surprising amount of incidental defensive utility which is key for many offenses.

A+ -> A


This often struggles to actually check what it's supposed to check i(eg Weavile and Dragapult) in my experience. It's obviously still very good, but I don't really think it's quite deserving of A+. This is definitely the nom i'm least certain about.

A -> B+

This mon has taken a hell of a beating with the rise of tapu lele, the persistent existence of future sight, and just meta trends always beating it down. Nowadays, I think it's only really great on stall- you can kinda make it work on balance but you kinda always end up having to accept an awful future sight matchup which isn't really tenable.

A -> A-

I think this is just a little worse than most of the rest of A. It's not like worlds worse or anything, but it's not on the same level as something like koko or ttar or buzzwole.

A- -> B
It's still decent enough, but it just doesn't really fit on teams anymore. There are many better things that do it's job.

B+ -> A-

While hail has been adapted to over time, I still think arctozolt has immense breaking power. It absolutely shreds offense in general almost singlehandedly.

B+-> A-/A

This mon can singlehandedly win a ton of matchups almost on preview. In particular, with the adaption to blaze kick cc protect lefties sets that give it a lot more longevity, I think it got a lot better. It also has surprising defensive utility vs grasses and Weavile. This SPL replay is a great example.

B+ -> C+

This mon is just bad. It only fits on rain, and it's not really super good there either.

B -> C

Struggles to come in, no defensive utility, is often mostly deadweight in most non-stall matchups.

B -> C+

Really is just not that good even on HO. Most teams nowadays can naturally handle it, especially with Melmetal being one of the top mons and absolutely hosing it. I'm guessing this is a remnant from pre-king's rock ban.

B -> C+

Similarly, this is a remnant from pre-kyurem ban. Occasionally it can still give nice role compression, but I don't think that at all justifies such a high placement.

B- -> C

This mon is simply bad. It's mostly outclassed by weavile, can't really break through the many physical walls in the tier, and is embarrassingly slow.

B- -> C+

Can't remember ever seeing this. Probably not awful or anything but hasn't really been seen at all for something like a year.

think thats most of my thoughts, probably missed a couple.

quickly reviewing the other noms: would not move corv, zapdos, or gengar. most likely to move corv. sandaconda is bad but I guess you could technically argue for it to be C-. I don't think that's right.

 

[Delibird Heart]

-> UR

Can't really speak for the other C-> UR noms as I haven't used these mons in a while/ever, but I really disagree with this. Prim is a very strong specs user with very few switchins (psychic for pex) and a nice bulk which lets it at least trade in more offensive matchups while putting in overtime work against fatter teams. It can also run subcm draining kiss which, while matchup fishy, is noteworthy, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone else use it but for me AV prim puts in insane work, boosting it's already amazing spdef.

Haxorus is also at least notable as a decent stallbreaker thanks to mold breaker.

now to go through and pass judgement on each mon from the top down
-> A+/A
It's just not S worthy. It's only really running spd and sd and while both of those sets are good, it's worse than the mons in S- and A+ and some of A.

S- -> S+/S

This mon is just insane. modest specs pult is arguably the single best mon in the tier, even ignoring it's potential to run DD or mixed twave hex sets. Most of it's answers are only barely avoiding 2hkos from modest pult, and a single spd drop can spell disaster. Meanwhile, it's also very fast and it's typing has a surprising amount of incidental defensive utility which is key for many offenses.

Agree with both of these, nothing to add. Lando is really not that hard to deal with at all, it's just pretty good at its job but doesn't put in overwhelming work in most games. Pult is imo a top 2/3 mon in the tier and definitely deserving of at least S.

A+ -> A


This often struggles to actually check what it's supposed to check i(eg Weavile and Dragapult) in my experience. It's obviously still very good, but I don't really think it's quite deserving of A+. This is definitely the nom i'm least certain about.

Disagree with this, imo clef is literally the face of SS OU. It's on almost every team with insane flexibility, from sr to cm to knock to sticky barb trick to twave to lo offensive to wish tp+aroma to all the inbetweens/mixes between these sets. It doesn't have the raw stats to be a hard defensive check to a lot of mons, but Imo its unparalleled utility is what makes it shine. It might even be deserving of S.

B+ -> A-

While hail has been adapted to over time, I still think arctozolt has immense breaking power. It absolutely shreds offense in general almost singlehandedly.

B+-> A-/A

This mon can singlehandedly win a ton of matchups almost on preview. In particular, with the adaption to blaze kick cc protect lefties sets that give it a lot more longevity, I think it got a lot better. It also has surprising defensive utility vs grasses and Weavile. This SPL replay is a great example.

Agree with both. LO arctozolt straight up ends some teams as soon as hazards go up. Dealing over half to melmetal with a physical move is no small feat. Meanwhile blaziken can fuck up teams very hard if it gets one turn of set up, which is facilitated by the balloon sets it often runs. Once it gets going, you often need some good predicts and upwards of 2 sacs to stop it (unless you happen to have the perfect counter, Azu).

No opinion on the rest of noms, but good post, nice to see some people still care about this meta :)

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

B -> C

Struggles to come in, no defensive utility, is often mostly deadweight in most non-stall matchups.


B- -> C

This mon is simply bad. It's mostly outclassed by weavile, can't really break through the many physical walls in the tier, and is embarrassingly slow.

I respect the lobster quite a bit more than the chess piece - its breaking power is genuinely absurd and neither Pokemon is really outspeeding anything notable (I guess Tyranitar is big, but you can aqua jet that anyways). I am not sure where either of them should be ranked in the VR, but I generally think that Crawdaunt is better than Bisharp by a subtier or two.

As for some other Pokemon that have not been mentioned yet:

S- -> A+

Still a fantastic piece to have on every team if you can fit it on, but I think it thuds into a lot of things due to steel being a very lacklustre offensive typing + it not always carrying coverage for its checks since it likes fitting protect + a status move on its moveset. The lack of reliable recovery also hurts it when a lot of what it checks can basically come in over and over again to wear it down. While Heatran also suffers from the same issue, it really punishes you whenever it hits the field unless you have something like Gastrodon/Hydreigon/Slowking that can comfortably take hits from it while recovering themselves when needed (which is not exactly common, SPD ground types like Landorus-Therian and Garchomp or water types that have sketchy recovery like Rotom-Wash and Tapu Fini are typically what most teams fit on to stave off the frog), so its lack of reliable recovery hurts it a tad less in my opinion. Flame body sets with DEF investment also eat into Melmetal's defensive role on teams to me, so I think there should be a distinction between the two in the VR.

C+ -> B- or B

Just a menace in rain - even Pokemon that resist both of its STABs can be worn down by said STABs or its coverage in hurricane (which hits fairly hard with a choice specs equipped), and those Pokemon tend to not have reliable recovery (e.g. Ferrothorn, Tapu Fini, Primarina). Pokemon neutral to one or both of its STABs need massive special bulk to withstand it, with max SPD Gastrodon taking 68.3 - 80.5% from a choice specs hydro pump in rain if it is not running storm drain. I certainly respect it significantly more than 'rain staples' in the VR like Seismitoad, and believe that the frog dropping to the C tier should be accompanied by the dragon ascending to the ranks of B.

A -> A+

Simply synergises incredibly well with some of the best offensive threats in the tier - it can strengthen electric type coverage from the likes of Dragapult and Urshifu (or even more niche options such as Nidoking) to reliably push through some of their checks while being a strong offensive Pokemon in its own right with an incredible speed tier and terrain-boosted STAB. Its access to an unblockable u-turn makes it incredibly easy to pivot in said threats to take advantage of terrain while roost allows it to last in longer games unlike its cousins, while being both an offensive and defensive check to possibly the best flying type in the tier (Tornadus-Therian) is also very valuable.

 

[cyberacc]

I can understand and agree with most of the posts above so I won't comment on their input aside from "yep, true". Will mostly raise some concerns and highlight mons I think are blatantly misplaced. Us coming up with personal VRs can come later, SS is a bit in the spotlight and the VR is pretty bad. We can start highlighting good and underrated slots at a later point, right now let's fix the "wtf" listings.

A -> A- This thing is not at all a hard A slot. It consistently underperforms a lot and is mostly used as a cool "ah ha I set up on your offense to turn the tempo into my favor!" Retort. The defensive sets all suck and it regularly does boom-zip nada into bulky offense let alone stall. I will say that 3 attack variants are under utilized and could bolster its' A placement but right now we only see it as a natural inclusion on Koko Ferro spikes. Oh and its' practically a free double switch in for Zolt hail. That's bad.

A -> A- I agree fully with pulsar on it being sort of misplaced in hard A but I do appreciate its' weird existence in SS. I think defog sets are... Bad, they're just bad. But it's a really cool melmetal check that can practically burn whatever it wants and also likes messing with Sand. Neat mon but not an A hitter for me.


A- - > B+ Victini is fucking awesome. Really really cool mon to use. But have you actually tried building with Victini recently let alone use it? I have and its' absurdly specific for the output you get to the point where its' rare both on ladder and in tourney. It has immense potential still but I really do not see how it can sit in hard A-, until we find a Blaziken lightning in a bottle build situation we sort of have to drop it down the rankings.

B+ -> B .. Meh? This thing has been sparse lately ever since Kyurem ban since a) most stalls get the option of going two birds pretty freely now and b) most teams at the moment have incredibly resilient Electric punishes that Zone dosen't appreciate at all. It dosen't trap anything super useful anymore since everyone sort of realized how shit it is to rely on Corviknight as the obligatory steel. Its' still useful but stacking things that like Corviknight or Ferrothorn being gone isn't super relevant at the moment or the foreseeable future.


B -> B- This overtakes Bisharps' spot. Mediocre, bland, boring are the only words I have for this thing. On top of the asinine level of builder work you have to go to make this thing put in the work its' supposed to its becoming quite clear that it is the worst thing available in the OU builder while still being usable. Everyone who has some modicum of experience using this thing in modern SS can probably attest to how unimpressive it is.

 

[Smashburn]

promised a long post, happening

first, low-hanging fruit. get this unusable shit out of here
-> UR

none of these are at all really usable, at least the rest of C/C- I can kinda see.

I don't disagree with many of these but I think that Latios, Latias, and Moltres still need kept on the table. Moltres is definitely not on top but it has a select niche it occupies, as does Latios and Latias. They are prepared for fairly preemptively but certain teams need to keep them in mind.

S -> A+/A

It's just not S worthy. It's only really running spd and sd and while both of those sets are good, it's worse than the mons in S- and A+ and some of A.

Considering that Landorus is one of three viable ground-types in this tier, and remains its best superglue, this feels hasty. Lando still has some flaws, but they don't outweigh its benefits even if they are select.

S- -> S+/S

This mon is just insane. modest specs pult is arguably the single best mon in the tier, even ignoring it's potential to run DD or mixed twave hex sets. Most of it's answers are only barely avoiding 2hkos from modest pult, and a single spd drop can spell disaster. Meanwhile, it's also very fast and it's typing has a surprising amount of incidental defensive utility which is key for many offenses.

Modest Dragapult is a recent invention and a monster of its own, really. Basically every check barely dodges the 2HKO bar Blissey and SpD Clefable, which doesn't guarantee it isn't Choice Banded or DD. It will definitely take getting used to but I personally wouldn't put it above where it is. Really getting pushed to its limits, though.

A+ -> A

This often struggles to actually check what it's supposed to check i(eg Weavile and Dragapult) in my experience. It's obviously still very good, but I don't really think it's quite deserving of A+. This is definitely the nom i'm least certain about.

Clefable is a monster and a heinous criminal; I simply can't downplay its versatility and ability to smash unprepared teams. Regardless, it has its flaws and it does sometimes struggle to check Weavile, Dragapult, and the like. We have also seen an uptick in the usage of Victini, Melmetal, and Slowking-Galar, which has made it generally less reliable. However, Clefable is supposed to be played with more support for that reason. I don't think it is a clear-cut drop if it's a drop at all.

A -> B+

This mon has taken a hell of a beating with the rise of tapu lele, the persistent existence of future sight, and just meta trends always beating it down. Nowadays, I think it's only really great on stall- you can kinda make it work on balance but you kinda always end up having to accept an awful future sight matchup which isn't really tenable.

Damn this went straight from the boiler to the ice bucket challenge. I don't think I would go this far, considering that places Toxapex among some of the tier's most unreliable. It might not be the most amazing or favorable-by-trend considering some of the tier's recent offensive shifts, but it's uncontestably one of the greats still. I don't think it's worth dropping further than it is right now.

A -> A-

I think this is just a little worse than most of the rest of A. It's not like worlds worse or anything, but it's not on the same level as something like koko or ttar or buzzwole.

A- -> B
It's still decent enough, but it just doesn't really fit on teams anymore. There are many better things that do it's job.

B+ -> A-

While hail has been adapted to over time, I still think arctozolt has immense breaking power. It absolutely shreds offense in general almost singlehandedly.

B+-> A-/A

This mon can singlehandedly win a ton of matchups almost on preview. In particular, with the adaption to blaze kick cc protect lefties sets that give it a lot more longevity, I think it got a lot better. It also has surprising defensive utility vs grasses and Weavile. This SPL replay is a great example.

B+ -> C+

This mon is just bad. It only fits on rain, and it's not really super good there either.

B -> C

Struggles to come in, no defensive utility, is often mostly deadweight in most non-stall matchups.

B -> C+

Really is just not that good even on HO. Most teams nowadays can naturally handle it, especially with Melmetal being one of the top mons and absolutely hosing it. I'm guessing this is a remnant from pre-king's rock ban.

B -> C+

Similarly, this is a remnant from pre-kyurem ban. Occasionally it can still give nice role compression, but I don't think that at all justifies such a high placement.

B- -> C

This mon is simply bad. It's mostly outclassed by weavile, can't really break through the many physical walls in the tier, and is embarrassingly slow.

B- -> C+

Can't remember ever seeing this. Probably not awful or anything but hasn't really been seen at all for something like a year.

Grouping all of these so I can quickly adjust some of them and make my own noms.

A -> A+
I agree with Slowpoke Fan on this one. I think Koko has a lot going for it right now, its speed is very convenient offensively with Modest Dragapult going around as well.

A -> A-
I'm not informed enough to agree or disagree, but I think trends haven't been working for its benefit recently.

A -> B
I'm also not very informed on Slowking, but I don't know if I would drop it that far even if I was.

B+ -> A-
I don't know if I'd suggest that Arcozolt is synonymous with Alolatales in the builder. Hail is good, but it has a limited success pool and it's pretty matchup dependent.

B+ -> A-/A
Blaziken was already lightning in a bottle after rain decreased in usage, but things have naturally balanced themselves out. We've seen Urshifu-R with Aqua Jet more, in addition to Dragapult, Volcanion, Dragonite, Slowbro, and the omnipresent Landorus and Garchomp. This was probably one of my least favorite replays out of SPL. AKG lost the game turn 6 after dropping momentum to Defog in front of Landorus knowing Blaziken could double. He also had some extraordinarily bad luck after two SpD drops, but the mismanagement of turn 6 made me cringe so hard knowing he had other answers he could ration.

B+ -> B
B -> C
Washtom, Slowbro, Slowking, Gastrodon, Clefable, Dragonite, Dragapult, Rillaboom all seeing continued usage at the top level... yikes. Seismitoad is not as good as it once was even for rain. Crawdaunt is almost rain exclusive but it has other fair applications even if they are limited, and it's definitely not C worthy.

B ->B-
How is this ahead of Bisharp. Literally how. The stupid metal bug can't even do it's job half the time, at least Bisharp can occasionally do something when Buzzwole doesn't exist.

B -> B-
Agreed but less harshly, a lot of continued usage from its checks and stuff has really deteriorated it post gen.

B- -> C+
Agreed, even if this thing was the most potent thing in C+ I would still agree. It just isn't as applicable as it used to be especially with Dragapult floating around often.

B- -> C

This mon is simply bad. It's mostly outclassed by weavile, can't really break through the many physical walls in the tier, and is embarrassingly slow.

B- -> B

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

A -> A-

I think this is just a little worse than most of the rest of A. It's not like worlds worse or anything, but it's not on the same level as something like koko or ttar or buzzwole.

A -> A- I agree fully with pulsar on it being sort of misplaced in hard A but I do appreciate its' weird existence in SS. I think defog sets are... Bad, they're just bad. But it's a really cool melmetal check that can practically burn whatever it wants and also likes messing with Sand. Neat mon but not an A hitter for me.

You two mean S tier, look at its usage in the Smogon Masters so far

 

[Critaquil]

a nom I've been thinking about for a bit now

A+ -> A

chomp to me just feels like it's stuck between being a sidegrade to Lando defensively and being a slower but bulkier kart/vile offensively, and it leads to Chomp feeling out of place among the A+ ranks in my opinion.

compared to Lando from a defensive angle, it essentially trades a substantially worse matchup vs Koko/Grasses for a better matchup vs the Fires, with the worse Koko matchup in particular being the key thing for me. a ground that fails to check an electric in this tier can and will rapidly turn into a liability for the team that leads to being stuck between giving up momentum or risking massive damage, that's not to say tank chomp isn't good, of course, but its flaws feel more difficult to account for in the builder relative to other A+ pokemon.

Offensively, while Chomp is absolutely the premier offensive ground, I find that in many gamestates, chomp just fails to bring the game home. despite having better natural bulk than most other cleaners, the defense drop from scale shot paradoxically makes Chomp oftentimes easier to revenge kill compared to something like Kart, while also not offering as much utility as something like Weavile or Lele in games where the mon itself isn't able to make a lot of progress. Ground as an offensive type in general in this tier also just doesn't hit much of note that knock offs from Vile or Kart can't do about as well, pretty much being limited to Toxapex and flame body Heatran. As far as being a pure breaker is concerned, I would argue that Pokemon like Ttar, Urshifu, or Volcanion all serve solely as massive threats to most standard defensive cores, they play to make progress and often die trying, but still usually accomplish their goals. Whereas Pokemon like Lele, Kartana, Weavile, and Melmetal all offer fantastic utility to help make its teammates significantly more of a threat. Garchomp, I find, tries to do both of these things and ends up feeling like it can't commit to either. While being far and away the best offensive ground type is definitely a great trait to have especially in a tier like Gen 8, I think that its strengths fall more in line with that of an A ranker than an A+ mon.

 

[cyberacc]

With the year rounding off I felt it was a good enough time as any to post a personal VR on SS OU and some personal footnotes on how the viability rankings should be handled for SS.

I've chosen to remove S- and A- on my viability list and the mons in each category are also unordered. It feels like those two rankings don't give credence to how much good stuff there actually is in SS at any given time and trying to categorize between an A mon and an S tier mon in SS OU is going to be up for debate with anyone you talk to surrounding SS. Tossing things into generalized monikers like A+, A etc. makes way more sense to me. It also feels like a massive disservice to put a number on what is actively ordered in SS OU; Putting say Clefable on 6th, Zapdos 8th dosen't really work that well in regards to how SS functions both in the builder and in active play.

Tier list used. Thanks goes to Glimmer for making it.

Elaboration

S
Absurd speed tier, pivoting capabilities, hard to account for sets. Most offense in SS is patched together with duct tape to deal with this thing. Its' vastly above curve with the rest of the dex and every single team you build should have preferably multiple outs in case it starts spamming Shadow Ball.
King of Kills. Its' very easy to overprep Dragapult and be weak to Weavile and it is likewise easy to overprep for Weavile and then lose to Dragapult. Very little actually wants to switch into a well played Weavile and the few things that do often hate the item removal on top of it. A league of its' own.
This might be the one I have to argue extensively for, but here goes;
Tornadus Therians turn one knock off is the single hardest thing to punish in SS OU. Bar none. People complain about "unpunishable interactions" in SS and this is the one I often sit down and ponder as my example of it. Seeing Zapdoses, Landoruses and even Clefables depending on lineup switch on it turn one is ridiculous. Killing the fucking thing turn one is often out of the question and a large reason why Weavile slots Triple Axel comes down to the fact that Icicle Crash, even while Adamant, negatively rolls to kill.
252+ Atk Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Tornadus-Therian: 312-368 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Ridiculously safe, ridiculously hard to punish are words I use for Tornadus Therian. It's my argued S tier at the moment.
A+
Queen Utility. I don't have much to say on Clefable that others are likely to say; She does a lot and a lot of it is good. Twave Knock Off is annoying, the sparse wish passer is great for making otherwise "frail" mons like Heatran stick around for longer, Calm Mind Unaware keeps most stall teams together, Sticky Barb + Trick is hard to navigate around. Excellent mon.
I've done the "bold" decision to move Landorus Therian down from S tier in my tier list but it mostly comes down to how I perceive Landoruses active impact on any given game. It sticks around, acts as the mandatory ground type and it does that well. But it dosen't feel like an oppressive game piece more than a means in the builder to solve a conundrum. The SS meme of "Landorus T + 5 shitmons = good team" is very much true still, that I will concur.
Spikes and Knock off on top of an incredible typing with a defensive-offensive utility movepool most mons would dream of having. Ferrothorn is excellent.
The standardized obligatory steel type for Offense at the moment. Hits like a freight train, nails status constantly throughout a match and is very hard to switch into. Absorbing Future Sight is also excellent and can save many-a offenses mid games. Great mon.
Bulky Offense and Stall annihilator. Might be the best stealth rock setter in the whole tier and acting as a psychic resist is invaluable. If hazards are off the field this thing can take bad trades and heal up extensively over time. Toxapex having to slot Shed Shell more and more is a sign of how dominant Heatrans presence can be. The Air Balloon Heatran walling the occasional specially defensive Garchomp lineup is also funny. Good mon.
The "fuck you" to the aforementioned fire toad. Offensive SD is incredibly intimidating and without careful preamble can sweep teams on a dime. Specially defensive sets with Toxic are good and come in handy a lot of the time since it lets you slot a lot more aggressive steel types. Solid mon.
I don't build too much with Gking in mind but I can't deny its excellent synergy with Weavile. Some people make it extensively clear how infuriating this thing is as a defensive-offensive Future Sight setter and I can't deny how scary it can be depending on what it is paired with. Trick + Black Sludge + Nasty Plot teams are also terrifying but require a decent bit of effort to pop off. Incredibly consistent mon.
The blue collar worker of birds. Zapdos with static can save your ass way more than you have any right to, sure, but its' the fact that its' on top of being an excellent mon that has one of the best check lists in the whole Dex. It dumpstering a lot of Regenerator cores is also handy. I think defensive Defog sets at the moment are pretty bad and should only be used if you legitimately can't fit it anywhere else but it does the job well enough should you need it. Incredibly, incredibly consistent mon.
The Spine Splitter. Future Sight + Urshifu is fucking ridiculous to pilot comfortably into and it might be the best way to force something to die in the whole dex. Taunt + Pads is good and abuses players that try too hard to contact-punish as their Shifu outplay but Band is by and large the best set. Danger, danger, danger the mon.
Bird Killer. Putting Koko this high up might be surprising but as far as ensuring damage sticks HDB + Toxic Koko is actually sort of cracked as role compression. Resetting Terrain is good, U-Turn + Thunderbolt is a great pivoting tool (even if I dislike the set personally), Calm Mind + Roost can hard-call a loss for Slowbro + Torn T teams. Being faster than Weavile also helps but uh, yeah, Koko is not the thing I hard in on Weavile with lmao. Amicable hard worker.
Someone once told me that "every good offense in SS needs Scarf + Future Sight Lele or its' a bad offense" and honestly I can't blame them for thinking that. Lele is terrifying; Setting up Future Sight is good but its' one of the few special attackers in the dex that actively helps to make Damage stick which is invaluable for a lot of offenses to even operate properly. Specs is terrifying, 4a Twisted Spoon will sometimes kill half a team without even being touched, the sparse taunt Calm Mind set up is great. While she does not appreciate the tiers' obligatory steel type nowadays being left in the hands of Melmetal I can't not put her in the A+ cluster, Lele is fantastic.
This thing has 3 STABs it feels like. Scarf is the most consistent set but legitimately anything works with Kartana and I feel like it is relatively unexplored in what it can actually do. SD Life Orb demolishes a lot of stall teams and Band can do similar results damage wise. It does not appreciate Torn T being on what feels like 2/3rds of teams. It can be a little finicky to build with but its' well worth the effort. Kartana is good.
A
Honest is the word I'd use to describe Tapu Fini. Some players really put Fini on a high pedestal and I don't really share the sentiment personally. She has awkward match ups into everything above her barring Weavile, Urshifu and Heatran. I won't put her any lower though; Fucking with 3 elite level threats in OU is nothing to scoff at. I think Trick + Defog is an awful application of Fini, I think the SM standard of Taunt + Scald is incredibly consistent, the sparse Calm Mind set up is good. She is good on the teams she shows up on and I like her when she does show up but I don't think she fits in the A+ basket of Pokémon.
I've rated Dragonite harshly in the past but I do think it holds some untapped potential still. Turning one of the scariest situations of the game (Shifu + Fsight on preview) into a set up opportunity is valuable. Its' best application has been DD when paired with Ferrothorn and its' surprisingly consistent at wiping out a lot of offenses if you don't give it some level of respect. With how much statuses it it does become aggravating to pilot though; I could not tell you the number of Dragonites I've seen die in an embarrassing fashion to some random utility option along the lines of Zapdos with Toxic.
Grassy Terrain is what keeps a B+ mon in A rank. I have soured immensely on Band Rillaboom; I think it is, ubiquitously, a flawed set that can only go on specific offenses. Bulky SD is excellent at eliminating cheese and helps keep HO well in check in the meta-game and its' utility in item removal on top of being a win con is good. But when it comes down to what Rillaboom actually does in any given game it mostly comes in, sets grassy terrain then leaves so its' other teammates can abuse the terrain it sets (Kartana being a proprietary example, Heatran another.)
...Which leads me into the next Pokémon in the A category. Blaziken is fucking, ridiculous. With Grassy Terrain up this thing feels like it gets an absurd amount of positions to set up and win off of. Its absolute worst quality in all honesty is mostly due to how restrictive it is to build Blaziken; Rilla+Blaziken is incredibly strict in its' formatting and is what holds this mons incredibly specific niche firmly in check. Blaziken is good though; No sane player plays foolishly when they see this off of preview.
Slowbro sets future sights. Slowbro scald fishes melmetal. Slowbro eats up Future Sight. Slowbro teleports as you use U turn. Its the last popular vestige of the Futureport strategy and its' remarkably consistent at the job still.
I can't begin to tell you how many teams I've built and thought on reviewing the six are Volcanion weak. Its' probably way, way, way too many to be honest. Volcanion with Specs can often pick and choose what it wants to kill but it suffers mostly from how reliant it is on good defogging and it does not appreciate how much in the metagame at the moment likes to slot "random" toxics. Give Volcanion any room though and it will in fact kill you. This much remains true.
Pex is weird to rank but I decided to toss it into the A category since its' still remarkably annoying to kill. The adaption of Light Screen + Shed Shell + Knock Off towards the end of CG and in modern tournaments ended up revitalizing stall to a large extent and you should always play with some respect to how fucking annoying Pex is as an anti-tempo Mon. Does it appreciate Lele becoming more popular? No. But its' still Toxapex. Many games throughout this tiers history have gone down to someone running the "unoptimized" standard Scald/Knock Off/Haze/Recover set.
Tyranitar is B+, Excadrill is B, Sand is A tier. Sands consistency and litany of builds available is a massive plus in a tier where HO is incredibly sparse. Excadrill acting as an offensive speed check that spins is incredibly valuable, Tyranitar being a nuclear warhead choice band user that checks Dragapult is valuable. Lumping the two of them together under the moniker "sand" felt fitting.
Corviknight is A in the builder, C- in active play. It defogs. It defogs ten trillion times, it roosts ten trillion times. It U-turns for 2% damage then roosts again. It ID Presses the Rillaboom then gets sacked once the opposing rocker is dead. Nothing happens when Corviknight comes out and I wish it did something past its' job. A tier.
Blissey at large is a fine little blob and does a lot; Being a stopgap to every special attacker barring Lele is very useful. I'll use Blisseys segment more so for elaborating on stall more than Blissey and its' why I put her into A tier.
I don't really share the cynicism some player have towards Stall. Stall and Stall-like teams show up way too much for me to consider Blissey and what it enables lower than A tier; In tour play I've spotted it enough to respect its' inclusion and in high ladder games its' remarkably consistent compared to Stall in its' sister generations of ORAS and SM. It takes effort and specific line ups but due to the success people have had throughout the generation I can't actually call it bad or unviable. Blissey sits in A tier for this reason but it can definitely be discussed at large.

The rest of these will be pretty broadstrokes with some sparse elaboration on noteworthy Mons.
B+ These things are flawed but incredibly strong in certain teams
Can either spend entire games pressing recover doing nothing or hard-walls every single thing it resists or checks. Consistently strange but I trust the slugster. I am a slug believer.
solid but specific.
Some people make incredibly good use of Buzzwole, I am not one of them. Its' solid but easy to abuse.
Veil HO? Sucks. Zolt Hail? Awesome but hard to build.
Brutalizes standard offense. Is incredibly bad into stall.
Reliable to a fault.
Horrifying off of proposition, easy to outplay due to how SS works. MU moth is MU moth.

B Perfectly fine choices with very apparent positives and very apparent negatives tied to them.
Does not vibe in Melmetal city anymore. Corviknight is already sparse. Can be decent still if you're building it to kill Ferrothorn, not steel birds.
Some players preach this thing being nuts, I don't see it. Still solid sparsely.
Overhyped but okay. Ripping a big fat hole through Clefable reliant teams is funny but it dislikes Torn T removing its' item and making it redundant. The Ice Beam calc on Torn T is depressing.
Can steal games on a cointoss but its' inconsistent to a massive degree. I avoid this thing like the plague in the builder.
No Zapdos on preview? Decent. Zapdos on preview? 5v6.
B- Inconsistent but powerful in specific circumstances.
Incredibly volatile balance breaker.
Similar to celesteela but this breaks bulky offense.
similar to toxtricity but this breaks (some) stall teams and bulky offenses.
Second worst OU mon. Incredibly asinine in specifics for an okay at most end result.
Lele check that gives Toxapex room to click better buttons more safely.
Okay in the vacuum due to the check list being fine but in active games its' pretty disappointing.

C+ Incredibly inconsistent outside of specific teams, have to be built with to utilize their specifically good traits
Shed Stall, nothing else. Awesome when it works though!
Table Stall, nothing else.
This thing should not be ranked in OU.
Sidegrades Clefable on a few good stall teams.
Shifu check with sleep.
"I am building a stall/sand team and have no actual way of managing Crawdaunt"
Hyper specific stall slot.
Hyper specific Hyper Offense slot to check Weavile and Shifu. Like. Once.
Trick Room.
C Do not use this in OU unless you're playing for fun.

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

Here is my list (big thank you to cyberacc for starting this as well as Glimmer for creating the tier list): I chose to keep S- and A- because I felt that there were Pokemon that do not quite belong to S/A but have a leg up on A+/B+.

Elaboration

S

Nothing more really needs to be said about this mon - its absurd speed tier gives it an incredible amount of leeway in customising its sets - it can opt for a positive ATK/SPA nature for more power or use a plus SPE nature to just be the fastest thing in the Wild West outside of scarfers. Everything revolves around not losing to it and teams need to stack hard and soft checks to fight the Galarian dragon.

S-

Often used as an offensive check to Dragapult with its ghost resistance and dual STABs that threaten the dragon, Weavile is the other major threat in the tier with its combination of speed, power, and strong STAB combination + moves. Teams have to constantly balance between being secure against both mons and it is just as easy to lose to a well-played Weavile as it is to a smart Dragapult.

the fire frog is once again the face of the best defensive type in the tier with its incredible ability to force progress as Galar is inhospitable to its greatest enemy that is currently tearing up Paldea without roost. Ground, dragon or water types that otherwise stonewall it either suddently face pointed stones all around them as they switch in or get bathed in toxins that wear them down in the long run, while it has taunt, nature power, heavy slam, etc to punish different matchups according to its teams needs. Its secondary ability is also very much appreciated in this metagame as it punishes the dangerous Weavile from knocking off its leftovers/air balloon, allowing it to act as a physically defensive steel type if needed besides being a special tank that shuts down threats like Tapu Lele and Volcarona.

while its incredible utility with knock off has been explained extensively by Cyber above, this force of nature is not a one-trick pony: it is the best offensive defogger in the tier with its good matchup into a lot of premier hazard setters while being able to pivot out of the ones that threaten it with a fast u-turn and regenerator, but can also viably run assault vest sets to be a special sponge that can also check physical threats like Kartana and Rillaboom in a pinch. It should be noted that its expansive movepool makes those two sets incredibly customisable: sand/hail teams can run weather ball on the genie to theaten the everpresent Zapdos, heat wave is fantastic for punishing non-Heatran steels, toxic is useful for crippling long-term checks while taunt shuts down passive mons that rely on status moves to annoy it. It is certainly Moomin' in this tier Mimikyu Stardust.

the electric bird once again reminds people that it is the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar of competitive singles and has a strong case as the king of OU as another generation passes with it being one of the faces of the tier. Static is an absurdly good ability for a Pokemon that often requires its item to be knocked off (especially in a HDB generation), especially one with a typing that encourages it to soak up physical hits. Losing hidden power ice did hurt its ability to threaten ground types, but it has adapted by either using more offensive spreads with STAB hurricane to punch through them with brute force or pouring on toxins at them from the skies. It might not be as good of a defogger as the god of wind, but has enough positive matchups against the tier where it gets the job done if your team cannot fit the latter. Its awesome matchup against (and for!) rain is another plus to me that gives it enough unique traits among birds to deserve a spot in S-.

A+

the Pixie is once again a metagame staple after it received magic guard in generation 4 (as well as the coveted fairy typing in generation 6). Magic guard to ignore anything that is not a direct attack, unaware for more passive teams to stop setup cheese as well as snowball into a lategame cleaner itself, unparalleled utility movepool as well as serviceable bulk allow it to take on almost any role that a Pokemon with 60 base speed and 483 BST can dream of.

arguably the best ground type in the tier. Amazing speed tier for a mon of its bulk and utility since Galar is not porting absurdly fast Pokemon from the distant past/future to present day, fantastic typing that allows it to compress multiple defensive roles (e.g. electric immunity, fire resist without being weak to grass or water coverage, etc) and a deep movepool to facilitate it performing well with both offensive and defensive sets. I think its typing is particularly noteworthy in the sense that it allows its SPD sets to actually outperform Gligar-Therian in what you want from a defensive ground outside of being weaker to Tapu Koko. Being able to check fire types with threatening coverage/secondary STAB in Volcarona and Volcanion while at least not folding to Rotom-Wash hydro pumps or Zapdos weather balls in rain has incredible synergy with the top steel types in the tier (who can conveniently check the aforementioned Tapu Koko!), and I think this synergy is enough for a good amount of teams to pick it over our Gliscor replacement in Galar.

not going to belabor too much on this, but I think that while its role compression and utility is incredibly useful, its role in the metagame as a versatile band-aid than a metagame-defining threat/defensive piece should make people rethink its viability in the metagame.

the salamander cousins might not rule the tier, but their shenanigans have made them icons and cult heroes to many, including yours truly . Our OG from Kanto is a wonderful abuser of teleport, using the move to safely bring in frailer teammates to wallbreak (especially if it has set up future sight). Its Galarian cousin might not have access to the move, but compensates for it with a meaty 110 SPA to fire off future sights and an expansive pool of attacks with assault vest sets or turn into a dangerous wallbreaker with nasty plot (trick is also a great option to cripple its checks with black sludge).

the other two members of the Holy Trinity of steel types in the tier. The Unovan durian maintains its excellence with its relentless hazard-stacking, item removal and interesting utility moves while the Alolan cyborg is one of the best tanks in the tier with an amazing STAB move as well as access to multiple status options and good coverage.

Koko and Lele are largely undeterred from the terrain nerf this generation, doing mostly the same things en route to excellence in the tier. Outside of electric terrain synergy and being a rare ground killer as an electric type, Koko has the distinction of being an amazing long-term bird check due to its access to roost while Lele is just an offensive monster: choice scarf turns it into one of the best forms of speed control in the tier, choice specs produces a wallbreaker that might punch through your screen as it goes to town on hapless defensive cores while calm mind obliterates more passive builds.

two of the best physical attackers in the tier. Both abuse future sight incredibly well with choice band sets while choice scarf sets offer interesting speed control options that outspeed some dangerous scarfers (Lele for Urshifu and Blacephalon for Kartana). Urshifu can opt to use a protective pads set that gives up immediate power or speed for the ability to switch up moves or even taunt passive checks while Kartana can use a slew of items to facilitate its nuclear swords dance set.

pretty much a no-brainer for me. Grassy terrain received a massive buff as Tapu Rillaboom is an amazing terrain setter with its access to u-turn and knock off. Its access to STAB grassy glide make it a potent revenge killer even without wearing a choice scarf, and SD sets abuse this to run bulkier spreads without worrying about being outsped so Rillaboom has more opportunities to set up SD or terrain for its teammates. Just an amazing offensive glue that makes so many structures work and 100% deserves a spot in A+.

A
Pokemon that can have top-tier value on the right team, but are generally less splashable.

A-
Same thing but generally a bit worse than the ones in A.

B+ to B-
Good/solid Pokemon that can fit on the right team, but generally have a narrower range of teams where they are the best option.

C+ and C
Very niche Pokemon that mostly get places on teams not because they are great at filling a certain role, but are the only option that can do the combination of things required from them.

 

[Scarfire]

I used Cyber's tierlist a base since I trust his opinions on this metagame especially as far as the Stall Fat Shit Pokemon go, and then adjusted to my liking and own understanding of the tier.

I don't wanna over-explain stuff, too tired for a big post and I don't see a point in writing an essay on why I find Dragapult A+ instead of S. Will just explain the two guys that mainly stand out on my list here.

in A- because I feel like its under-utilized, and as I made the upper list I kind of noticed a CM set esp with like Colbur just beats this entire tier effortlessly. Answers range from dodging with ttar/weavile, cm unaware clefable, melmetal, and banded wood hammer from rilla. A lot of these can be punishd by switching to smth and then going for the sweep later (go zapdos/fbody tran/helmet ferro on the darks/rilla/melm) and Reuni is capable of checking a lot of annoying stuff too (clef, pex, lele, glowking). Great mon.

is mad high for me because I think the fast strong scalds in this tier are demonic and in many ways I rate it higher than Urshifu. Obviously its lacking in many ways but being able to circumvent the immense amount of contact punishment Urshifu has to deal with, while not having to run a weaker item, is really nice. You lose pivoting potential in favor of just having strong and annoying buttons to click. Very solid.

 

[Smashburn]

It's been awhile since we've received any VR updates for SS OU, though there have been a lot of significant shifts in the metagame; a lot of experimentation, a lot of success, and a lot of failure. I think we're due for some change soon to best reflect the current state of the metagame, though I doubt we're on track for anything considering the chaos and madness that is SV OU at the moment. To preface the rest of this post, most of my footnotes come with minimal explanation to be less redundant with the last few posts

Footnotes

RANKINGS

My rankings are obviously subject to my personal opinion, but I made all of the following nominations with the goal of making moderate and agreeable changes to the VR. This does not include adding or removing ranking categories.

RISES

A+ -> S-
I feel like Tornadus is mostly self-explanatory given its extensive track record, and the numerous accounts of its success, but Tornadus is the Swiss knife bird of OU. Next to Landorus-T this feels like best team glue in the tier, sporting a versatile kit of sets that reduce role compression issues. I won't elaborate any further, but I'll refer to the more detailed explaination of cyberacc and Slowpoke Fan.

A -> A+
Koko has been performing really well in the popularity of Modest Dragapult, Weavile, Tornadus, and Urshifu. It tends to keep itself out of the fire with offensive teams, so remaining healthy long enough to check the former is almost never an issue. Putting Garchomp and Buzzwole in check is also significant depending on how your team handles either, while Taunt or Toxic Koko lures in its usual checks or shuts down CM Clef, CM Reun, and the Slowtwins. Obligatory Koko rise.

A- -> A
Rillaboom joined an explosion of team variety following the boom of Melmetal, Blaziken, and Gastrodon usage. Excellent glue for offense and balance alike, and the control it displays against sand and rain weather teams makes it a consistent pick. Rillaboom is also obligatory partner of Kartana grass-spam. Rillaboom is in an excellent and influential position in OU, more than deserving of a rise.

B+ -> A
This is the most aggressive of my nominations, but I think it's the most appropriate. Blaziken continually performed well even as an underdog in the top echelon of OU since it picked up usage near the end of generation eight. Though its most successful teambuilding options are often limited to RIllaboom offense and HO, it excels where it can apply itself. It's always to be considered from the teambuilder and on preview, no competent player leaves Blaziken out of sight or out of mind.

A- -> A
This felt somewhat unexpected, but the performance of Tapu Fini on well designed teams structured to support it really displays the best of this mon. While it can be easy to dissuade in the builder and its performance varies from set-to-set, it's not very telegraphed and the consistency of its sets in positive matchups outweighs the collective negative. Solid A.

A- -> A
Individually Excadrill and Tyranitar really aren't anything special, but sand as a whole has been very successful. This simple change reflect that.

B -> B+
Aegislash has an amazing offensive and defensive profile, and its recent performances in OU highlighted just how good it really is. Invalidating Lele + Urshifu is a rare and underappreciated tool for the tier, especially when offense is so common. Checking Buzzwole, Clefable, Corviknight, and Skarmory in the short-term is also valuable, while its STAB ghost-typing and high special attack mean that it nukes passive slow walls like Slowking-Galar, Toxapex, Slowbro, and Slowking.

B -> B+
The tier's most annoying HO lead with a great defensive toolkit. It's difficult to shut down and demon mew is a menace, while its untelegraphed sets always bring some kind of surprise factor. It's not perfect though, having some poor lead situations and its other sets being very matchup dependent. Overall pretty solid with some noticeable flaws, B+.

UNEXPLAINED RISES

B- -> B

C -> B-

C+ -> B-

C -> C+

C- -> C

C- -> C

DROPS

A -> A-
Washtom hasn't been favored by recent trends, but a short fall from A doesn't put a dent in its record. Its unique defensive profile allows it to check Melmetal, Volcanion, and Dragonite while soft-checking Weavile, Garchomp, and Urshifu. It eats sand and rain for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and exploits a lot of common defensive cores nicely. However, Washtom is very one dimensional and only fits on certain builds. It has a tendency to be overwhelmed by its checks, often paired together, and more trouble managing Victini and Blaziken.

A -> A-
Likewise, Buzzwole hasn't been favored by recent trends. Though its defensive profile makes it an effective check to Weavile, Melmetal, Garchomp, Kartana, and Rillaboom, it struggles to manage Urshifu tends to get worn down by a collection of the former. It can't do everything it wants to at once, and requires specific EV tweaking to hit certain benchmarks. Offensively it suffers similarly, and its 4mss holds it back. While it still has a great matchups into sand and grass-spam, it's awkward into so many other matchups that it can be inconsistent. I feel it falls just short of A.

A- -> B+
Weather wars with sand and rain make veil difficult to set up, and other forms of offense and HO are more consistent. This isn't to say that Veil HO is inconsistent or bad, but it's less successful than before.

B+ -> B
Its speed gives it a nice profile to check Dragapult, Weavile, and Tornadus with-- but that's about the only benefit it retains. It's difficult to justify over Koko, and Eleki tends to pair better with Gapdos. Choice band and BU sets are mediore at best, and pivot sets are downright trash. I don't quite think it's B- worthy, but we're getting there.

() B -> B- (C+)
Its defensive sets are less than spectacular, and its offensive sets only fit on HO. Even then its performance is lackluster, and it's success is very matchup dependent. Bisharp runs in a similar vein, wherein even its theoretical good matchups can be mediocre. Even then, I still think that C+ is too steep of a drop even for the OU Sucker Punch king.

B -> B-
Nidoking tears holes into Clefable balance and hazard stack, but its performance elsewise is underwhelming. It has little-to-no defensive value, requires overwhelming support, and can barely achieve the feats it wants to without sacrificing its speed. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be accounted for, but it's difficult to justify and even harder to use.

B -> B-
Veil HO suffered and as a result Cloyster suffered. Checks like Melmetal have only become more popular while Ferrothorn, Urshifu, Rillaboom, Toxapex, and Slowbro have remained consistent. Overall, a steep decline for Cloyster.

UNEXPLAINED DROPS

C+ -> C

C+ -> C

C+ -> C

C+ -> C-

() C -> C-

SPECIAL MENTIONS

B
Even though modest Dragapult has been gaining a lot of traction, I think it's inconsistency and passiveness into the other special attackers is too big a blot in its utility to ignore. Additionally, Blissey is only a conditional check to Dragapult, provided the Dragapult set is not telegraphed.

() B
I thoroughly considered these for a rise, however, I think both are only circumstantially good. Right now a couple trends are occurring that mildly benefit both, but don't outright increase their viability. Hippowdon is "reliable to a fault," and Skarmory is "solid but specific." I think that's appropriate for their application.

UR

 

[veti]

Top 10 is ordered by viability, everything else is completely unordered within tiers.

Dragapult and Weavile are crazy and honestly I wonder if a metagame with one or both banned would turn out better.

 

[Ruft]

My opinions tend to shift a bit after SPL so I'll be curious to look back on this in a couple of months.

 

[pulsar512b]

 

[strawberrysundae]

Okay so today I was in the mood to just type a crap ton of words. Tiers below A are not ordered.

Dragapult

Broken. Genuinely disgustingly broken Pokemon. If anything should get suspected now that we're an old gen, it's this thing. To hell with the "ban Weavile" crowd. Dragapult is ridiculous. Specs sets threaten to obliterate absolutely everything with hazards support and a little chip, Pult can wallbreak for itself with Wisp+Hex sets, or goof off and potentially rob games 30% of the time with DD shenanigans. Legitimately ridiculous and using Pult on a good team with good support makes this thing feel like the "Kanye West plays a game of basketball against disabled children" meme.

S Tier

Weavile: Yeah, not much to say here I feel like. Almost as good as Dragapult at just locking the game down with that brutal speed and power. The scariest thing in the tier to be looking at with a chipped team while your Fini is at 30. CB is probably underexplored but boots SD is so fucking good I'm not gonna be the one who does it.

Landorus: Another one that I feel like needs very little explanation. SpD soft checks basically everything in the tier, it gets every good utility move game freak has ever made, can even run extremely dangerous setup sets, can scarf, can band, can imprison if you just have that fuckin dog in you, can explode, can clear and set hazards, and as usual Intimidate is so good.

Heatran: Timeless and eternal. I love fast Magma Storm sets because you trap all sorts of things, but classic SpD rocks protect toxic stuff makes for a decent Lele/Pult switch without just robbing you of every precious drop of momentum. A Pokemon that really just needs no introduction with how well it matches up against so many other tier staples, even ones you would think it wouldn't at first glance, like Lando, Pex, or Volcanion (Earth Power willing).

Ferrothorn: yeah I don't need to say anything here that hasn't been said every day for the past 13 years

Melmetal: Beast mode personified in Pokemon form. Has insane role compression as a Weavile check, a Dragapult check, Tapu Lele check, all-purpose Fairy answer, and absolute killing machine that dumpsters 3/4 of the tier in a single turn. Also has the bulk to take random super effective hits to do its job, provided they aren't crazy boosted. Glad we didn't ban this thing.

Tornadus: The safest lead in the tier because you knock absolutely everything. Both AV and boots sets are cash money, being able to be used for different things and soft check a massive portion of the tier with their great speed, Hurricane, and excellent utility moves with the option to even spread Toxic or clear hazards. Great glue mon.

S- Tier

Clefable: Good old pink blob that learns every move in the game is still great. I feel like LO sets are kinda underexplored because everyone just sticks to the classic SpD utility set so their teams don't just get fuckin whooped by Pult. Not sure what else to say here.

Garchomp: Probably the best OU Garchomp finds itself a part of. SD Scale Shot sets just end games crazy quick, Scarf is probably still pretty good, and defensive helmet stuff is good as well but generally harder to fit because you kinda just want Landorus for that. I want to bring back the gen 5 chain chomp set but I am convinced it's just going to be complete ass.

Zapdos: "Zapdos is, unsurprisingly, pretty good. Zapdos is the most pretty good Pokemon of all time. In Scarlet and Violet, Zapdos will probably be pretty good."

Kartana: jesus christ this thing feels impossible to answer without one of the big fuckoff defensive birds or the most defensive melmetal of all time

Urshifu: Surging Strikes might be the most busted move in the game. Pads > Band, pass it on. The most walled by Tapu Fini Pokemon of all time. Also an offensive mon that bizarrely just cannot hurt Dragapult much at all. Like this thing gets NOTHING for Pult.

Tapu Lele: Specs Lele is still one of the absolute best killing machines in the tier, and with just a bit of support a la Dragapult becomes downright overwhelming as you just do 40 to Corv as it comes in and threaten to annihilate the Lando/water it's paired with. Scarf is a good revenge killer but with both STABs being pretty exploitable, I find it a bit harder to justify. Still, funnily enough, probably the best scarfer in the tier given how ass all the other options are. Like what are you gonna do, run Scarf Garchomp/Lando? yeah okay lmao

Tapu Koko: Definitely a little less of an auto-include on a lot of offense teams like all the above Pokemon are, but Koko has the speed, coverage, utility, and pivot moves to one-on-one with most everything in the tier, whether it's threatening damage or pivoting out. Screens sets are probably still pretty good but with the eight million things running around using Defog I find it harder to justify as opposed to just the traditional boots pivot set.

A+ Tier

Slowbro: Good blanket physical check if it didn't get so whooped by Kartana and Rillaboom. Still probably pretty good, but I feel like it's passive and somewhat unreliable. I am almost definitely overvaluing it here but I'm too lazy to go back into the tier list editor and move it so just pretend like I stuck it right after Blacephalon or something idk

Rotom-Wash: Pivot god and burn spreader extraordinaire. Also probably a pretty good scarfer if I'm being honest. Helps to check and play around a whole bunch of things in tandem with other pivots. Pretty good. Probably better than Slowbro.

Volcanion: Actually the most threatening Pokemon in the tier, I am convinced of it. NOTHING switches in for free, and you're risking enormous chip on whatever you send in to try to beat it. If only it wasn't slow.

Tapu Fini: Deceptively threatening with how much you can Whirlpool and just work to death. The imperfect accuracy of all its non-Moonblast moves can be annoying at times, but you have the typing and mixed bulk to duel a huge percentage of the tier. Do not be tempted by Defog sets. Absolutely dog shit ass set.

Corviknight: Passive as hell but does a fantastic job walling every physical attacker ever and even a decent chunk of the special ones. Pivots, defogs, and can potentially thunk switches with BB/Body Press. Needs some support to take the heat off it, but it can be an outstanding stalwart on the right kinds of bulkier teams that need their Kartana check to also be a Tapu Lele check or something like that.

Volcarona: funny dancing moth gets one free turn of setup and just wins the fucking game

Blacephalon: Some games it can't switch in on anything and it dies immediately, other games it gets three kills and clicks Mind Blown for a fourth. A funny alternative to Dragapult if you really love rocks chip and are tired of doing 35 to Clef after leftovers.

Rillaboom: Easily walled but does a great job knocking stuff and getting U-turned on all day by Corviknight. Sometimes grassy terrain is more useful than the Pokemon itself.

A Tier

Dragonite: About as hard to get going as a car in freezing temps, but once it does, it's basically impossible to stop. Weakness Policy sets are good because Clefable WILL try to sit on you and Moonblast you, then you just click any move and it'll evaporate. Probably better than I'm giving it credit for but it's just so blasted by Zapdos and crippled by status that it feels hard to justify at times.

Buzzwole: Great all-purpose physical check but it doesn't have much utility to do with the free turns it gets by walling things. I'm convinced CB is the way to go because you can turn free turns from switching into Kart knock into the ability to thump something.

GKing: Sauced. AV switches into damn near everything and you can run a huge variety of offensive moves to dent about anything that wants to come in. Nasty Plot is probably dogshit but trick black sludge is so funny when you can land it on something that NEEDS its health to check stuff as opposed to raw bulk, like Tornadus or Dragapult.

Toxapex: A bit specific and stupid passive and the most Taunt-deleted Pokemon in existence, but few things can infuriate players as much as a well-played balance team backed up by a Toxapex. Infestation stocks are at an all-time high.

Pelipper: As good as rain is. And rain's pretty good.

Excadrill: The first non-OU on this list, and the one that deserves it the most. Great spinner, sand sweeper, and utility check to a bunch of different things. The fact that we let this thing drop to UU and stay there is criminal. CB sets are also great fun if your prediction game is on point.

Kommo-o: Fantastic endgame cleaner with a little bit of support and its checks removed. Throat Spray might actually be super scary, but I feel like half the time you just get goobed by Tapu Fini or something as you're trying to set up.

Victini: The most chad way of answering Tapu Lele and not very much else with a good boots pivoting set. I guess it also kinda deals with Melmetal too. Shame it gets worked by every dragon in the tier and gets smashed by both Dragapult and Weavile.

Hawlucha: Very specific and requires mandatory support, but can end games scarily fast against unprepared teams, or even prepared ones that have had their checks weakened. Low on the list relative to its threat level because of how specific it is, though.

Zeraora: Probably a pretty good Zapdos answer that can use a pretty nasty Bulk Up set. Everything about this just gets worked by the numerous ground-types in the tier and the massive amount of things that can take electric moves. I wish this was better, or it got like Ice Punch or something.

A- Tier

Nidoking: In a vacuum the most threatening thing to have to switch into if you have something slower in that just gets obliterated by one of its moves. Somewhat slow for an offensive poke and doesn't have much defensive utility, but boy, when it clicks, it clicks.

Suicune: Probably pretty good. I'm not gonna bother to try because vincune is the most emotionally destimulating mon ever to use, but I'm sure someone will.

Tyranitar: Behold, a Dragapult answer! Does a good job facilitating Excadrill and dying to everything it wants to actually check. Like seriously, what are you ever bringing this in on?

Gastrodon: Probably pretty great as a decent physical check and electric move absorber. Good Toxic spreader too, and the people's Volcanion answer.

Mamoswine: Dogshit nonexistent defensive utility at the tradeoff of getting to 2HKO the entire game. High ceiling.

Bisharp: I am convinced this thing is utter ass. It never does anything and gets mopped all day by the million Pokemon in this tier that carry ground, fire, or fighting moves. Good noob gatekeeper mon though. Don't worry buddy, it gets better next gen.

Hydreigon: Actually hella undervalued with a great defensive profile it can use to fire off its lethal offenses. Scarf might actually be good but I've never tried it.

Terrakion: The people's Urshifu alternative if you're sick of winning all the time and want a Pokemon that makes you clench your ass cheeks every time you use its secondary STAB. Probably better than everything else in this rank.

Barraskewda: See Pelipper.

B+ Tier

Gapdos: A great Choice Bander that punishes Landorus just for existing. Competes heavily with big bear but secondary flying STAB to absolutely maim things like Buzzwole and Dragapult that can answer shifu is amazing. If only it wasn't weak to like, everything.

Mew: The most goated hyper offense mon of all time. Can set games up and end them scarily quick or it can just do fucking nothing.

Skarmory: Tough to justify in a Corviknight and Defog-centric metagame where its hazards aren't as valued as Corv's pivoting and utility. Can potentially work with the classic custap lead set or as a hazard spreading Corv alternative on stall.

Blaziken: Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Still destructive in the right hands, but requires the support of a small Eastern European country's military to function. Knock Off is absolutely the fourth move of choice. Deal with Tapu Fini another way. Lure it in with pjab Urshifu or something, dunno. Or just forfeit and go next if you see a Fini at team preview.

Torkoal: As good as sun is. And sun isn't very good.

Jirachi: Slow pivot that checks Tapu Lele real nice and can set up rocks while exerting zero offensive pressure whatsoever.

Hippowdon: Probably pretty good. Probably the best Pokemon in this rank. Shame it's so passive, but it's funnily enough the best Pokemon in the tier at consistently fitting Roar onto its moveset. Eat shit, Volcarona.

Magnezone: Really specific support mon but can potentially open game-winning holes like very little else can. Makes for a great death fodder switch-in after you've trapped and eliminated whatever Steel-type there is. Fucking useless otherwise.

Aegislash: Follows the same vein as Terrakion- an alternative to one of the best Pokemon in the tier if you decide what you want instead of Dragapult's hilarious brokenness is a Pokemon with 8 speed and a Toxic immunity but with hilariously strong shadow balls.

Mandibuzz: Dragapult check that still dies to Draco Meteor and can defog on passive walls really good. Only fits on stall and semistall.

Dracozolt: I am in love with thing but it is so specific I can't justify putting it any higher. Under sand it can still guillotine most of the tier, but it's useless outside of sand or when sand isn't up. Still a sauced pick though.

ok from here on out I'm only gonna be talking about the mons I like or I feel are important because I'm tired of typing

B Tier

ATales: Veil and hail setter that facilitates Arctozolt to get eternally walled by every Steel-type in the tier barring Corviknight.

Hatterene: Above the other posse of trick room staples because Hatterene can actually do something outside of trick room unlike the others. Don't get me wrong, it can't do much, but it can do something.

Scizor: The most medium risk low reward Pokemon that's OU viable in any sort of way. CB is probably better than most else.

Blissey: Stall staple that should probably be a tier higher, but it's just so damn passive I cannot in good faith recommend it for high level play.

Latias: You're goddamn right I put it higher than Latios. Scarf sets are incredibly reliable and I genuinely feel like with a little more experimentation, they could be a reliable part of the metagame as a whole. You need heavy support to remove Steel-types and have a good plan for other nuisances like Clefable or Tapu Lele, but trick Scarf is equivalent to using an orbital laser strike against defensive mons and healing wish can just like, give you a second Dragapult or Lele or Melmetal late in the game or something. I might love this Pokemon. Please use it, to the three of you that are reading this.

Seis+Craw: See Pelipper.

B- Tier

Venusaur: See Torkoal.

P2/AWak/Cress: I have lumped the trick room staples together because they're complete dog shit ass outside of it and TR itself is somewhat niche and not very good at high evels of play.

Celesteela: The funniest revenge arc of any Pokemon ever. Went from an infuriating leech seed defensive blob to being used exclusively as an autotimize power herb cleaner. Steela is so fun to use but also so terrible at the same time.

C Tier

Reuniclus: I have tried to make Reun work on so many different team structures and archetypes- from psyspam to magic guard spam to trick room to general balance teams, but it is always so bad. Someone more talented than me might bring the secret sauce, though. Maybe I do need to be gambling thunders against Corv.

everything I didn't talk about is either garbage, funny, or so boring it wasn't worth mentioning.

thank you all for listening please do not flame me for all the dragapult glazing

also can we remove spectrier from the thread intro that thing has been gone for years thanks

 

[AKArien]

also can we remove spectrier from the thread intro that thing has been gone for years thanks

pls no it's all that i have left of him

 

[strawberrysundae]

this is horrible imo. i dont agree with most of these. kingdra and shed and ditto are both niche on their playstyles, ranking ninetales but not koal is a meme (it only provides sleep, albeit powerful), reun is great as av but no one ever talks about it, the discussion centers around cm, pult really is only phenomenal into offense and struggles with more bulky playstyles (albeit it is versatile), whens the last time you've seen zeroara do something that koko/zap can't (with the only defensive utility it provides being volt absorb and plasma fists), pex in a is a joke and having all of the mons it checks above it is a travesty, fini and dnite are wayyy too low on this list for the role compression and defensive utility they provide, cloyster and daunt above venu is just trolling. this list is just very wrong for the tier in question, and doesn't indicate you've played much generation 8 overused. when i think of something d tier i would think like bombee/shuckle/slurpuff/webs mons like hax/super niche weather mons like heliosk, charizard. not bad just generally outclassed and difficult to fit on most structures.

hey man so glad I caught you online so could I get the number of your dealer? I really want whatever it is you have

let's run it from the top why don't we

>kingdra: good luck fitting this on rain. defensive liability, walled by every water in the tier (of which there are many), and seriously competes for a spot with the other rain abusers. if it's really twisting your balls that much I'll move it up a rank or two

>shedinja: okay yeah this should be higher, when I made this list I had pretty much never seen shed but afterwards I've run into it on ladder a few times this past week. defo has some niches walling random shit on semistall teams but probably inconsistent. mods move it up to B- next to washed up horse

>ditto: I mean I guess. pretty much never see ditto these days, and you should have more malleable, game in game out answers to the myriad of swords dancers we have. ditto is pretty much exclusively good against boosting offensive threats, and that's it. move it up a rank I really do not care

>torkoal: it is literally in B+ next to blaziken rachi and hippo

>"AV reun is good" okay how many things in this tier click invested knock. weavile lando rilla kart at LEAST one of those is on every single team and mono psychic is a dix defensive typing. give me one good reason you're using this over gking. if you're using reun it's because you're trying to run over ladder fourteen year olds with colbur cm.

>dragapult: "pult really only does well into offense" is the biggest lie I have ever seen, pult is a threat and a half versus pretty much every team except the most hardcore of hardcore stall teams

>zeraora: yeah. it doesn't do much that zap or koko can't. hence why it's a whole ass two tiers lower.

>toxapex: pex is absolutely not a joke who told you that dude- you just need to be setting tspikes with it, not using it to soak up random hits and then trying to scald whatever comes in.

>tapu fini and dragonite: I... guess? fini is still very much near the top, don't know how you argue with it to be in the same tier as The Bear / clef / boots bird / specs psychic. dnite is incredibly reliant on boots to function and usually requires at least two dances before it's threatening, and ends up being somewhat matchup fishey as a result. not a single dragonite has been brought to SS SPL so far which should be a testament to its inconsistency at higher levels of play. bewear has a higher usage rate. let that sink in

>cloyster, crawdaunt, venusaur: okay let's start this off by saying venusaur is trash. only usable on sun and every time you want to load it up you need to make sophie's choice of whether you want to be permawalled by corv or permawalled by heatran. crawdaunt is cool but really only good under trick room, yet with the immediate power I still think it can do work more consistently outside of TR than venu can outside of sun. cloyster is moderately garbage and should probably be moved down to the same tier as venusaur, but I'm gonna be real with you dude I kinda stopped caring once I got past dracozolt

now for the bit about the weirdly worded personal attacks

"I don't play much gen 8" dude look around. nobody plays much gen 8. the moment november 18 2022 rolled around the entire playerbase decided that getting their cheeks clapped by booster energy paradoxes and kingambit was way more fun than whatever we're doing here. no fuckin clue why. the forums are somewhere between a ghost town and a mall during covid, and all that's going on is SS SPL, which I can't help but wonder if you've tuned into. you see the same faces on ladder as you did months back and everything is kinda just... dead around here. I watch the big games, champagne glass in hand, and I wonder when people will realize gen 8 is better than it was given credit for. yeah my rankings aren't gonna be perfect. they're indicative of my angle of the metagame as a whole, my style of play, and how I observe the people, teams, and general ecosystem around me. they're MY rankings.

 

[Scarfire]

Only disagreement I have with Strawberry's rankings and Every Other Ranking is the existence of S- rank. We need to abolish this shit fr.

 

[tntblader]

View attachment 596706

i just read this how dare thou put shed and ditto in c tier. theyd ont deserve to be in the same tier as fucking omystar they are both c+ mons grrr

 

[tntblader]

View attachment 597509
Okay so today I was in the mood to just type a crap ton of words. Tiers below A are not ordered.

Dragapult

Broken. Genuinely disgustingly broken Pokemon. If anything should get suspected now that we're an old gen, it's this thing. To hell with the "ban Weavile" crowd. Dragapult is ridiculous. Specs sets threaten to obliterate absolutely everything with hazards support and a little chip, Pult can wallbreak for itself with Wisp+Hex sets, or goof off and potentially rob games 30% of the time with DD shenanigans. Legitimately ridiculous and using Pult on a good team with good support makes this thing feel like the "Kanye West plays a game of basketball against disabled children" meme.

S Tier

Weavile: Yeah, not much to say here I feel like. Almost as good as Dragapult at just locking the game down with that brutal speed and power. The scariest thing in the tier to be looking at with a chipped team while your Fini is at 30. CB is probably underexplored but boots SD is so fucking good I'm not gonna be the one who does it.

Landorus: Another one that I feel like needs very little explanation. SpD soft checks basically everything in the tier, it gets every good utility move game freak has ever made, can even run extremely dangerous setup sets, can scarf, can band, can imprison if you just have that fuckin dog in you, can explode, can clear and set hazards, and as usual Intimidate is so good.

Heatran: Timeless and eternal. I love fast Magma Storm sets because you trap all sorts of things, but classic SpD rocks protect toxic stuff makes for a decent Lele/Pult switch without just robbing you of every precious drop of momentum. A Pokemon that really just needs no introduction with how well it matches up against so many other tier staples, even ones you would think it wouldn't at first glance, like Lando, Pex, or Volcanion (Earth Power willing).

Ferrothorn: yeah I don't need to say anything here that hasn't been said every day for the past 13 years

Melmetal: Beast mode personified in Pokemon form. Has insane role compression as a Weavile check, a Dragapult check, Tapu Lele check, all-purpose Fairy answer, and absolute killing machine that dumpsters 3/4 of the tier in a single turn. Also has the bulk to take random super effective hits to do its job, provided they aren't crazy boosted. Glad we didn't ban this thing.

Tornadus: The safest lead in the tier because you knock absolutely everything. Both AV and boots sets are cash money, being able to be used for different things and soft check a massive portion of the tier with their great speed, Hurricane, and excellent utility moves with the option to even spread Toxic or clear hazards. Great glue mon.

S- Tier

Clefable: Good old pink blob that learns every move in the game is still great. I feel like LO sets are kinda underexplored because everyone just sticks to the classic SpD utility set so their teams don't just get fuckin whooped by Pult. Not sure what else to say here.

Garchomp: Probably the best OU Garchomp finds itself a part of. SD Scale Shot sets just end games crazy quick, Scarf is probably still pretty good, and defensive helmet stuff is good as well but generally harder to fit because you kinda just want Landorus for that. I want to bring back the gen 5 chain chomp set but I am convinced it's just going to be complete ass.

Zapdos: "Zapdos is, unsurprisingly, pretty good. Zapdos is the most pretty good Pokemon of all time. In Scarlet and Violet, Zapdos will probably be pretty good."

Kartana: jesus christ this thing feels impossible to answer without one of the big fuckoff defensive birds or the most defensive melmetal of all time

Urshifu: Surging Strikes might be the most busted move in the game. Pads > Band, pass it on. The most walled by Tapu Fini Pokemon of all time. Also an offensive mon that bizarrely just cannot hurt Dragapult much at all. Like this thing gets NOTHING for Pult.

Tapu Lele: Specs Lele is still one of the absolute best killing machines in the tier, and with just a bit of support a la Dragapult becomes downright overwhelming as you just do 40 to Corv as it comes in and threaten to annihilate the Lando/water it's paired with. Scarf is a good revenge killer but with both STABs being pretty exploitable, I find it a bit harder to justify. Still, funnily enough, probably the best scarfer in the tier given how ass all the other options are. Like what are you gonna do, run Scarf Garchomp/Lando? yeah okay lmao

Tapu Koko: Definitely a little less of an auto-include on a lot of offense teams like all the above Pokemon are, but Koko has the speed, coverage, utility, and pivot moves to one-on-one with most everything in the tier, whether it's threatening damage or pivoting out. Screens sets are probably still pretty good but with the eight million things running around using Defog I find it harder to justify as opposed to just the traditional boots pivot set.

A+ Tier

Slowbro: Good blanket physical check if it didn't get so whooped by Kartana and Rillaboom. Still probably pretty good, but I feel like it's passive and somewhat unreliable. I am almost definitely overvaluing it here but I'm too lazy to go back into the tier list editor and move it so just pretend like I stuck it right after Blacephalon or something idk

Rotom-Wash: Pivot god and burn spreader extraordinaire. Also probably a pretty good scarfer if I'm being honest. Helps to check and play around a whole bunch of things in tandem with other pivots. Pretty good. Probably better than Slowbro.

Volcanion: Actually the most threatening Pokemon in the tier, I am convinced of it. NOTHING switches in for free, and you're risking enormous chip on whatever you send in to try to beat it. If only it wasn't slow.

Tapu Fini: Deceptively threatening with how much you can Whirlpool and just work to death. The imperfect accuracy of all its non-Moonblast moves can be annoying at times, but you have the typing and mixed bulk to duel a huge percentage of the tier. Do not be tempted by Defog sets. Absolutely dog shit ass set.

Corviknight: Passive as hell but does a fantastic job walling every physical attacker ever and even a decent chunk of the special ones. Pivots, defogs, and can potentially thunk switches with BB/Body Press. Needs some support to take the heat off it, but it can be an outstanding stalwart on the right kinds of bulkier teams that need their Kartana check to also be a Tapu Lele check or something like that.

Volcarona: funny dancing moth gets one free turn of setup and just wins the fucking game

Blacephalon: Some games it can't switch in on anything and it dies immediately, other games it gets three kills and clicks Mind Blown for a fourth. A funny alternative to Dragapult if you really love rocks chip and are tired of doing 35 to Clef after leftovers.

Rillaboom: Easily walled but does a great job knocking stuff and getting U-turned on all day by Corviknight. Sometimes grassy terrain is more useful than the Pokemon itself.

A Tier

Dragonite: About as hard to get going as a car in freezing temps, but once it does, it's basically impossible to stop. Weakness Policy sets are good because Clefable WILL try to sit on you and Moonblast you, then you just click any move and it'll evaporate. Probably better than I'm giving it credit for but it's just so blasted by Zapdos and crippled by status that it feels hard to justify at times.

Buzzwole: Great all-purpose physical check but it doesn't have much utility to do with the free turns it gets by walling things. I'm convinced CB is the way to go because you can turn free turns from switching into Kart knock into the ability to thump something.

GKing: Sauced. AV switches into damn near everything and you can run a huge variety of offensive moves to dent about anything that wants to come in. Nasty Plot is probably dogshit but trick black sludge is so funny when you can land it on something that NEEDS its health to check stuff as opposed to raw bulk, like Tornadus or Dragapult.

Toxapex: A bit specific and stupid passive and the most Taunt-deleted Pokemon in existence, but few things can infuriate players as much as a well-played balance team backed up by a Toxapex. Infestation stocks are at an all-time high.

Pelipper: As good as rain is. And rain's pretty good.

Excadrill: The first non-OU on this list, and the one that deserves it the most. Great spinner, sand sweeper, and utility check to a bunch of different things. The fact that we let this thing drop to UU and stay there is criminal. CB sets are also great fun if your prediction game is on point.

Kommo-o: Fantastic endgame cleaner with a little bit of support and its checks removed. Throat Spray might actually be super scary, but I feel like half the time you just get goobed by Tapu Fini or something as you're trying to set up.

Victini: The most chad way of answering Tapu Lele and not very much else with a good boots pivoting set. I guess it also kinda deals with Melmetal too. Shame it gets worked by every dragon in the tier and gets smashed by both Dragapult and Weavile.

Hawlucha: Very specific and requires mandatory support, but can end games scarily fast against unprepared teams, or even prepared ones that have had their checks weakened. Low on the list relative to its threat level because of how specific it is, though.

Zeraora: Probably a pretty good Zapdos answer that can use a pretty nasty Bulk Up set. Everything about this just gets worked by the numerous ground-types in the tier and the massive amount of things that can take electric moves. I wish this was better, or it got like Ice Punch or something.

A- Tier

Nidoking: In a vacuum the most threatening thing to have to switch into if you have something slower in that just gets obliterated by one of its moves. Somewhat slow for an offensive poke and doesn't have much defensive utility, but boy, when it clicks, it clicks.

Suicune: Probably pretty good. I'm not gonna bother to try because vincune is the most emotionally destimulating mon ever to use, but I'm sure someone will.

Tyranitar: Behold, a Dragapult answer! Does a good job facilitating Excadrill and dying to everything it wants to actually check. Like seriously, what are you ever bringing this in on?

Gastrodon: Probably pretty great as a decent physical check and electric move absorber. Good Toxic spreader too, and the people's Volcanion answer.

Mamoswine: Dogshit nonexistent defensive utility at the tradeoff of getting to 2HKO the entire game. High ceiling.

Bisharp: I am convinced this thing is utter ass. It never does anything and gets mopped all day by the million Pokemon in this tier that carry ground, fire, or fighting moves. Good noob gatekeeper mon though. Don't worry buddy, it gets better next gen.

Hydreigon: Actually hella undervalued with a great defensive profile it can use to fire off its lethal offenses. Scarf might actually be good but I've never tried it.

Terrakion: The people's Urshifu alternative if you're sick of winning all the time and want a Pokemon that makes you clench your ass cheeks every time you use its secondary STAB. Probably better than everything else in this rank.

Barraskewda: See Pelipper.

B+ Tier

Gapdos: A great Choice Bander that punishes Landorus just for existing. Competes heavily with big bear but secondary flying STAB to absolutely maim things like Buzzwole and Dragapult that can answer shifu is amazing. If only it wasn't weak to like, everything.

Mew: The most goated hyper offense mon of all time. Can set games up and end them scarily quick or it can just do fucking nothing.

Skarmory: Tough to justify in a Corviknight and Defog-centric metagame where its hazards aren't as valued as Corv's pivoting and utility. Can potentially work with the classic custap lead set or as a hazard spreading Corv alternative on stall.

Blaziken: Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Still destructive in the right hands, but requires the support of a small Eastern European country's military to function. Knock Off is absolutely the fourth move of choice. Deal with Tapu Fini another way. Lure it in with pjab Urshifu or something, dunno. Or just forfeit and go next if you see a Fini at team preview.

Torkoal: As good as sun is. And sun isn't very good.

Jirachi: Slow pivot that checks Tapu Lele real nice and can set up rocks while exerting zero offensive pressure whatsoever.

Hippowdon: Probably pretty good. Probably the best Pokemon in this rank. Shame it's so passive, but it's funnily enough the best Pokemon in the tier at consistently fitting Roar onto its moveset. Eat shit, Volcarona.

Magnezone: Really specific support mon but can potentially open game-winning holes like very little else can. Makes for a great death fodder switch-in after you've trapped and eliminated whatever Steel-type there is. Fucking useless otherwise.

Aegislash: Follows the same vein as Terrakion- an alternative to one of the best Pokemon in the tier if you decide what you want instead of Dragapult's hilarious brokenness is a Pokemon with 8 speed and a Toxic immunity but with hilariously strong shadow balls.

Mandibuzz: Dragapult check that still dies to Draco Meteor and can defog on passive walls really good. Only fits on stall and semistall.

Dracozolt: I am in love with thing but it is so specific I can't justify putting it any higher. Under sand it can still guillotine most of the tier, but it's useless outside of sand or when sand isn't up. Still a sauced pick though.

ok from here on out I'm only gonna be talking about the mons I like or I feel are important because I'm tired of typing

B Tier

ATales: Veil and hail setter that facilitates Arctozolt to get eternally walled by every Steel-type in the tier barring Corviknight.

Hatterene: Above the other posse of trick room staples because Hatterene can actually do something outside of trick room unlike the others. Don't get me wrong, it can't do much, but it can do something.

Scizor: The most medium risk low reward Pokemon that's OU viable in any sort of way. CB is probably better than most else.

Blissey: Stall staple that should probably be a tier higher, but it's just so damn passive I cannot in good faith recommend it for high level play.

Latias: You're goddamn right I put it higher than Latios. Scarf sets are incredibly reliable and I genuinely feel like with a little more experimentation, they could be a reliable part of the metagame as a whole. You need heavy support to remove Steel-types and have a good plan for other nuisances like Clefable or Tapu Lele, but trick Scarf is equivalent to using an orbital laser strike against defensive mons and healing wish can just like, give you a second Dragapult or Lele or Melmetal late in the game or something. I might love this Pokemon. Please use it, to the three of you that are reading this.

Seis+Craw: See Pelipper.

B- Tier

Venusaur: See Torkoal.

P2/AWak/Cress: I have lumped the trick room staples together because they're complete dog shit ass outside of it and TR itself is somewhat niche and not very good at high evels of play.

Celesteela: The funniest revenge arc of any Pokemon ever. Went from an infuriating leech seed defensive blob to being used exclusively as an autotimize power herb cleaner. Steela is so fun to use but also so terrible at the same time.

C Tier

Reuniclus: I have tried to make Reun work on so many different team structures and archetypes- from psyspam to magic guard spam to trick room to general balance teams, but it is always so bad. Someone more talented than me might bring the secret sauce, though. Maybe I do need to be gambling thunders against Corv.

everything I didn't talk about is either garbage, funny, or so boring it wasn't worth mentioning.

thank you all for listening please do not flame me for all the dragapult glazing

also can we remove spectrier from the thread intro that thing has been gone for years thanks

hey man so glad I caught you online so could I get the number of your dealer? I really want whatever it is you have

let's run it from the top why don't we

>kingdra: good luck fitting this on rain. defensive liability, walled by every water in the tier (of which there are many), and seriously competes for a spot with the other rain abusers. if it's really twisting your balls that much I'll move it up a rank or two

>shedinja: okay yeah this should be higher, when I made this list I had pretty much never seen shed but afterwards I've run into it on ladder a few times this past week. defo has some niches walling random shit on semistall teams but probably inconsistent. mods move it up to B- next to washed up horse

>ditto: I mean I guess. pretty much never see ditto these days, and you should have more malleable, game in game out answers to the myriad of swords dancers we have. ditto is pretty much exclusively good against boosting offensive threats, and that's it. move it up a rank I really do not care

>torkoal: it is literally in B+ next to blaziken rachi and hippo

>"AV reun is good" okay how many things in this tier click invested knock. weavile lando rilla kart at LEAST one of those is on every single team and mono psychic is a dix defensive typing. give me one good reason you're using this over gking. if you're using reun it's because you're trying to run over ladder fourteen year olds with colbur cm.

>dragapult: "pult really only does well into offense" is the biggest lie I have ever seen, pult is a threat and a half versus pretty much every team except the most hardcore of hardcore stall teams

>zeraora: yeah. it doesn't do much that zap or koko can't. hence why it's a whole ass two tiers lower.

>toxapex: pex is absolutely not a joke who told you that dude- you just need to be setting tspikes with it, not using it to soak up random hits and then trying to scald whatever comes in.

>tapu fini and dragonite: I... guess? fini is still very much near the top, don't know how you argue with it to be in the same tier as The Bear / clef / boots bird / specs psychic. dnite is incredibly reliant on boots to function and usually requires at least two dances before it's threatening, and ends up being somewhat matchup fishey as a result. not a single dragonite has been brought to SS SPL so far which should be a testament to its inconsistency at higher levels of play. bewear has a higher usage rate. let that sink in

>cloyster, crawdaunt, venusaur: okay let's start this off by saying venusaur is trash. only usable on sun and every time you want to load it up you need to make sophie's choice of whether you want to be permawalled by corv or permawalled by heatran. crawdaunt is cool but really only good under trick room, yet with the immediate power I still think it can do work more consistently outside of TR than venu can outside of sun. cloyster is moderately garbage and should probably be moved down to the same tier as venusaur, but I'm gonna be real with you dude I kinda stopped caring once I got past dracozolt

now for the bit about the weirdly worded personal attacks

"I don't play much gen 8" dude look around. nobody plays much gen 8. the moment november 18 2022 rolled around the entire playerbase decided that getting their cheeks clapped by booster energy paradoxes and kingambit was way more fun than whatever we're doing here. no fuckin clue why. the forums are somewhere between a ghost town and a mall during covid, and all that's going on is SS SPL, which I can't help but wonder if you've tuned into. you see the same faces on ladder as you did months back and everything is kinda just... dead around here. I watch the big games, champagne glass in hand, and I wonder when people will realize gen 8 is better than it was given credit for. yeah my rankings aren't gonna be perfect. they're indicative of my angle of the metagame as a whole, my style of play, and how I observe the people, teams, and general ecosystem around me. they're MY rankings.

hi im mr shed stall guy so shedinja is c tier its only good on shed stall which is being adapted to by the funny little lele running sball and for ditto its a super niche stall pick to beat non flame body tran and its best slotted on shed stall