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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

To a certain degree, yes. I see a whole lot of posting in this thread from people who did not get their voting reqs. I have to encourage people to actually complete reqs on multiple occasions because they say they are either too lazy to finish them or they tried one account and it didn’t work out. If someone really isn’t able to complete voting reqs then it is what it is. But I’d expect at the very least that they try a couple times because they have two whole weeks. Anyone who didn’t even attempt reqs because they assumed a certain outcome clearly didn’t learn from the first Tera suspect.

This doesn't really mean much now, but just speaking personally, I obtained Reqs last time that Terastallization was Suspected, and didn't ultimately get Reqs in time this time around because I had quit Natdex OU (and most of Showdown in general) for the most part after the first vote ended in Tera remaining legal (by 2 votes, nonetheless), and only found out there was another Suspect test around 4 days before it ended.

It's quite possible a majority of the player base had given up on the tier, not knowing Tera was being retested or even bothering to get Reqs at all after the last results.

You're still right that people who didn't bother getting Reqs don't technically have room to complain, but I'd be interested to see side to side statistics on the activity of the community/tier during the last Tera Suspect vs now.
 
Chansey btw.
Pal park -> Poke Transfer Lab -> PokeTransporter -> Pokemon Bank -> Pokemon home -> LGPE
If wish is deleted when it's transferred to LGPE then why let kingambit and others have incompatible moves?
View attachment 533782
LGPE -> HOME transfer is one-way. You can send Pokemon from LGPE to HOME, but not the other way around.
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(Notice the one-way arrow from Bank, GO, and LGPE)
 
Thank you Tea Guzzler for the facts.

Still kind of a discrepancy with whats illegal and legal tho right?
No, there still is no way to get wish+port blissey in NDOU for the same reason you can't get it in SSOU.

If you have any further questions please take them to the SQSA thread, as the metagame discussion thread is not meant to be about mechanics discussions
 
Wow, I got off work not even knowing the suspect had concluded, or the outcome.

The only thing i have to say regarding it is, ggwp.

Anyway get rid of Gambit, Pult, Dengo. Pretty obvious but Gambit and Pult are essentially a pair and Dengo becomes even more stupid without the two so... (and maybe a Zama sus as well, the ghosts being gone means that all three of its sets just get ridiculous)
 
Stored Power being ban worthy is something I never thought I'd say but yeah, it's a pretty nasty in the tier rn and it ultimately has to get gone
because it never has and never will be broken, it just so happens that all the stored power users now get a much better defensive type at will or free coverage it wouldnt have gotten or both, i wonder why that is... anyways looking into the mons imo are the option before looking into the move since its not that widespread of a thing, especially since we cant look into (redacted) anymore
 
You were allowed to ask for posting access: there is a pinned thread in the Policy Review indicating how you can do it.


As much as I understand your opinion, I will have to mention that natdex mechanics were discussed a lot, and this is a point that was brought multiple times. One big reason why NatDex was kept the way it is is simply because among the playerbase, both from the casual and competitive parts of the community, there is just no support to nuke the old move(pool)s and items: so why would we do it? And frankly anyone playing the tier can tell you that the "random mechanics that were never supposed to interact" part is really overblown, and the only actually problematic elements (shedinja and assist) have been taken care off anyway.

I will try to word this as nicely as possible, but the last line frankly irks me: we went through the dynamax/AG controversy, which led to the creation of this thread and a bunch of debates and opinions given everywhere about what natdex should be, and needed 4 months to finally get a conclusion - this wasn't just soul searching at this point, this was practicing exorcism on the entire Smogon population. I personally put an immense amount of effort to make this happen, and am not the only one, and I can guarantee things are far from being as simple as your post might suggest. All of this just to say: yes, nuking old moves and items was a something that was proposed and discussed, but there are reasons why it was not accepted.

To be as clear as possible: yes, you can disagree with the way the tier is currently defined, and this is perfectly fine and healthy. However, before suggesting something as brutal as nuking one of the most defining aspects of the tier, I vividly recommend first making sure you aren't suggesting something that already was proposed in the past without adding something new, because this will just lead to a rehash of a billion things that already were said and discussed plenty.


How do you transfer a wish blissey (gen3 event) to lgpe, exactly?
Personally, my biggest grievance with this so-called identity of National Dex is pretending that Megas/Z Moves have some natural priority that means they must be in.

Z Moves and Megas are not special, and I will (personally, obviously I have no power whatsoever) reject any claim that they are or believe in any arbitrary ruling deciding that they must be allowed in every National Dex tier going forward.

And that was something that really bothered me about the thread as it went on, and still does, almost everyone just immediately agreeing that those two are special, and must be there, no matter what.
 
Personally, my biggest grievance with this so-called identity of National Dex is pretending that Megas/Z Moves have some natural priority that means they must be in.

Z Moves and Megas are not special, and I will (personally, obviously I have no power whatsoever) reject any claim that they are or believe in any arbitrary ruling deciding that they must be allowed in every National Dex tier going forward.

And that was something that really bothered me about the thread as it went on, and still does, almost everyone just immediately agreeing that those two are special, and must be there, no matter what.
They are in for the same reason any other dexited held items are in. Their "generational mechanic" status (which pretty much only means they are marketed in a certain way by TPC) is irrelevant
 
Personally, my biggest grievance with this so-called identity of National Dex is pretending that Megas/Z Moves have some natural priority that means they must be in.

Z Moves and Megas are not special, and I will (personally, obviously I have no power whatsoever) reject any claim that they are or believe in any arbitrary ruling deciding that they must be allowed in every National Dex tier going forward.

And that was something that really bothered me about the thread as it went on, and still does, almost everyone just immediately agreeing that those two are special, and must be there, no matter what.
i think its also because people like those things, we are a petmod anyways, i dont see whats wrong with forming a reason for those 2 to stay if thats what the players want
 
because it never has and never will be broken, it just so happens that all the stored power users now get a much better defensive type at will or free coverage it wouldnt have gotten or both, i wonder why that is... anyways looking into the mons imo are the option before looking into the move since its not that widespread of a thing, especially since we cant look into (redacted) anymore
yeah stored power as a whole is generally a gimmicky strategy, I agree it's not broken generally, but since tera stayed unfortunately the only way we really have to keep mons like cress or mew in check rn is to ban them, since restricting the other thing that made them broken (tera) isn't an option
 
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i think its also because people like those things, we are a petmod anyways, i dont see whats wrong with forming a reason for those 2 to stay if thats what the players want
See I prefer the reason of "We do it because we say so" rather than making some reasoning like "uhh uhh actually it's because its item based and theoretically you can transfer items so"

My take on Stored Power is ban the move. It's going to cause an insane amount of headaches I think.
 
because it never has and never will be broken, it just so happens that all the stored power users now get a much better defensive type at will or free coverage it wouldnt have gotten or both, i wonder why that is... anyways looking into the mons imo are the option before looking into the move since its not that widespread of a thing, especially since we cant look into (redacted) anymore
Yeah with Tera out the window, you now have 3, potentially 4 Pokemon that are banworthy because of one move. Espathra is one way to use it, but Mew, Cress and Lat shows that it's not one clear cut way to deal with it. Even Magearna has used stored Power based sets to strengthen itself, even if it's not the sole or main contributing factor. That's 4, maybe 5mons down with one move. I think banning SP is more efficient than banning all of those mons at this stage in the game.
 
LGPE -> HOME transfer is one-way. You can send Pokemon from LGPE to HOME, but not the other way around.
View attachment 533784
(Notice the one-way arrow from Bank, GO, and LGPE)
Hate for this to be my first post, but this is not entirely correct. You can deposit pokemon from LGPE into HOME and withdraw them in LGPE, but only if they were not deposited into a non LGPE game after originally being deposited into HOME.
 
See I prefer the reason of "We do it because we say so" rather than making some reasoning like "uhh uhh actually it's because its item based and theoretically you can transfer items so"

My take on Stored Power is ban the move. It's going to cause an insane amount of headaches I think.
we need a reason regardless, and the outcome is still the same, i dont see where ur going w this?

Yeah with Tera out the window, you now have 3, potentially 4 Pokemon that are banworthy because of one move. Espathra is one way to use it, but Mew, Cress and Lat shows that it's not one clear cut way to deal with it. Even Magearna has used stored Power based sets to strengthen itself, even if it's not the sole or main contributing factor. That's 4, maybe 5mons down with one move. I think banning SP is more efficient than banning all of those mons at this stage in the game.

mage has a whole lot of other things going for it outside of spower and is already banned, its not like banning spower would free it, so its a bit dishonest including it. esp is a bit of a weird one but is also already banned so imo its not worth including in currently, so mew cress and lati are really the main ones. these 3 mons have v specific defensive utility that allow them to run spower better than others (teapot wasnt mentioned but that guy too), there are still a lot of other mons that dont use spower well and idt it would be fair banning the move entirely. i think move bans are really only fair when a overwhelming majority of mons who use it are busted because of it, these are just a handful which have a lot of other redeeming qualities which make spower busted on them (shell smash and sball, amazing bulk and or ability, good speed and offenses)
 
The sooner gambit is nuked the f off the sooner this meta will have room to finally breathe for a bit. This aberration is gen7 mega-mawile on godzilla steroids and plagued the ladder for way too long it's absolutely ludicrous to even fathom.

Hoping we'll be salvaged from this obvious uber material this week at most.
 
tera here is quite literally the opposite of popular, and any of the halfway options just straight up don't solve the issue
the issue isn't one part of tera, it's the mechanic as a whole
You’re kind of missing my point here.

First of all, National Dex OU has had its playerbase been the most vocally anti-Tera out of all of them, potentially for good reason considering how it interacts with everything else, and yet even one of the most vocally anti-tera playerbases could not rally a 60% supermajority to ban it, showing that there is a large enough portion of the playerbase even in NatDex that doesn’t want to ban it in its entirety. “Restricting tera does not solve the issue” may be true, but you believe that because you’re already in the camp that wants Tera in its entirety gone, and that camp is just shy of enough people in it right now to institute such a drastic meta shift. One of the best ways that some of the middle ground could have been swayed is by taking the people who want change but don’t currently want Tera banned and showing them that a meta with Tera Team Preview doesn’t solve things. If a compromise was reached and the playerbase was able to use it to gather data and form opinions on it, another followup vote could have been had about it. Instead, by pushing for such a binary ban/no ban vote, people who might have eventually been swayed towards a wholesale ban by seeing that restrictions for Tera don’t work have been forced off the fence and into the camp of preserving Tera. Since slow change was apparently not an acceptable outcome, a binary vote is what you wanted, and a binary answer is what you got - and now nothing will change and there is likely not going to be another Tera vote in any capacity.
 
You’re kind of missing my point here.

First of all, National Dex OU has had its playerbase been the most vocally anti-Tera out of all of them, potentially for good reason considering how it interacts with everything else, and yet even one of the most vocally anti-tera playerbases could not rally a 60% supermajority to ban it, showing that there is a large enough portion of the playerbase even in NatDex that doesn’t want to ban it in its entirety. “Restricting tera does not solve the issue” may be true, but you believe that because you’re already in the camp that wants Tera in its entirety gone, and that camp is just shy of enough people in it right now to institute such a drastic meta shift. One of the best ways that some of the middle ground could have been swayed is by taking the people who want change but don’t currently want Tera banned and showing them that a meta with Tera Team Preview doesn’t solve things. If a compromise was reached and the playerbase was able to use it to gather data and form opinions on it, another followup vote could have been had about it. Instead, by pushing for such a binary ban/no ban vote, people who might have eventually been swayed towards a wholesale ban by seeing that restrictions for Tera don’t work have been forced off the fence and into the camp of preserving Tera. Since slow change was apparently not an acceptable outcome, a binary vote is what you wanted, and a binary answer is what you got - and now nothing will change and there is likely not going to be another Tera vote in any capacity.

slow change was not an option, NDPL is coming up, and tera has already proven to make games really volatile, so I'm assuming that the reason the sus happened almost immediately after ndwc was so that we could have reached a decision to allow people time to teambuild for it, since if there was a massive tier change right before a large tourney, it would have been really annoying for everyone involved, and I am yet to see a single person who wants tera to stay but also wants the tier to change, as most of the time the pokemon they complain about as being overpowered and overcentralizing for the metagame are only that way because of tera (gambit, ghold, pult, cress, garg, etc), also most people who play the tier semi-competitively already know how most of the "halfway" answers won't fix, all delaying the suspect test would do is change the mind of lower skill players, who weren't very likely to even get reqs in the first place, as most of the people who play the game well enough to make reqs already have their own opinions about tera as a mechanic and why they do or do not like it
 
ok so after shitposting and introspection I want to make the super duper:
dudes that need to get the fuckkkkk out of this tierrrrr!

so uh this is getting broken up into tier of "go awayness" starting with
super duper fuck you tier
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I dont think any of these are controversial, save gholdengo a little bit
Kingambit should've been banned a long time ago, this pokemon is very uncompetitive and with tera and luck can push over just about any team
Pult and Gambit are a Yin and Yang, that when Gambit leaves Pult becomes an unstoppable demon that solos the tier
Gholdengo follows in this tier because we're just straight up removing 2 mons that super check it and likely it goes from already incredible to holy shit
Stored Power is problematic, on top of being too strong with tera, I REALLY dont want to be the tier that wants to try to ban Teapot

fuck you but like youre not gambit so you arent the worst ever
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Ghold and Pult going = dog gotta get up out, CB and Iron Defense will just be to overpowered imo
Volcarona isnt competitive dude, the tera roulette is just awful with this mon, and getting rid of the thing that beat it with Sucker does not make me like it any more
dire claw sleep = bad at game (get better)


fuck you a little bit
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Tera Water Urshifu is very very strong, but overall I feel it doesn't change much with the likely bans going forward, and isnt inherently broken
Garg has me much less sure, on one hand, its a big fatass that sponges hits and is a very tough to contest wincon, but on the other hand, with careful play generally you can hold your garg check until you need it, probs worth watching but not in need of swift action.

flame me
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Kommo-o is already a guesswork chore with Z, Sub Drum, Dragon Dance all as wincons that are just such a pain in the ass. I hate this mon.
Tapu Lele is a very silly Z abuser that can push over slower teams, but not bannable at all imo.

ok anyway flame this list for being bad or w/e but i think if we're stuck with this dogass mechanic we may as well try to make the best of it :(​
 
edit: this was responding to a now deleted post

I'm just going to quote my own post:
As much as I hate Tera, imo if anything can kill the tier it would not be tera, but rather pple being doomers and ranting over how they think the tier is absolutely unfixable and nothing should be done anymore.

Bans have an impact on the tier: yes, the tier is in an unbalanced state right now, but saying that no progress has been done since we had absolutely insane shit like Regieleki, Chi-Yu, Deoxys-Speed, Regieleki, or even the fucking abomination that was Shedinja is just a blatant exaggeration. Even more recent bans, such as Annihilape or Espathra, pushed the tier in the right direction.

I believe it is time to stop crying about it, move on, and do what we can do to save the tier - and we will save the tier.
I do think Tera is actively harmful to the tier, but I think saying that the tier is beyond repair is just being a doomer on top of being a ridiculous exaggeration. Yes, I used to be very negative while talking about what the future of the tier would be if tera stayed, but now that tera is here to stay we will have to cope with it, move on, and do what we can to improve the tier.

Frankly if you think the tier is now impossible to save, you are free to leave: there is no point staying and keep doomerposting, this will not help and if anything you are the one hurting the format by doing that.

About the separate ladders proposition: a metagame isn't only about its ladder, but also all the ressources, tournaments, tiering actions and forum activities related to it. You still would have to choose which one is the official natdex for these reasons, and also give some kind of support to the other one, which implies you'll have to find staff and contributors for it - natdex AG was nuked exactly because this tier lacked that. To be honest I do think the playerbase split argument don't hold at all, but separating ladders is still not a realistic proposition for reasons unrelated to that.
 
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Agreeing with R8 here alot. While I am upset about the result as much as anybody (asking people to explain why they voted DNB previously, watching the pro-ban sentiment grow over a few months, and then see it not meet the threshold again does that), alot of the doomer culture around the tier isn’t going to get anything done, aside from (maybe) getting memed on. I think people who still want to play the tier are well within their right to complain about the mechanic, but the current best solution is to move forward with what we have. To that end, here are some immediate mons that look like they need the banhammer, and maybe some more that will become problematic later.

:sv/kingambit:
The tier king(ambit) is a defining abuser of Tera; I think every player has faced down Kingambit as the last mon, only for it to Tera Flying and chew up those Close Combats and Body Presses, before getting to +2 and cleaning. The combination of bulk, typing, priority, and power is already a sight to behold, but in combination with the unpredictability of Tera, Kingambit can very often reverse sweep teams. While it does have an undeniably healthy aspect to the tier, thanks to it being a great Pursuit teapper and Knock spammer, I think these traits are not enough to keep it in the tier for very long. Speaking of Pursuit trapping….

:sv/dragapult:
If Kingambit goes, this is probably going too. With Tera in the equation, Dragapult is downright impossible to Pursuit trap, as it can use types like Fairy or Dragon to bypass its Dark weakness and cripple its trappers with Will-O-Wisp or nuke them with Specs Draco. With very few Ghost-resists around, Dragon Dance sets also become quite terrifying again, as you still can’t outspeed them at +1 and may have to break a Substitute before even getting to them.

:sv/gholdengo:
I have less to write about Gholdengo than the other two, but this is partially because it doesn’t really stand out to me right now in the current metagame. If the other two go, however, its very likely that we will be struggling to find Gholdengo answers outside of offensive teams, as its immunify to most passive damage is insane and (again) can be stacked with Tera to make certain hits null and void. I think Gholdengo will force offensive teams to be the gold (heh) standard to an unhealthy extent if the above two mons go, but that is only speculation.

Other elements that I think will need to be looked at are Sneasler, Stored Power, Volcarona, Zamazenta, Tapu Lele, Iron Valiant, and maybe (big maybe) Tornadus-T. These have all had solid explanations above, and maybe I’ll edit in my reasonings for them later. However, I think the three I’ve outlined here (plus maybe Sneasler and Stored Power) should still be the first things on the council’s radar, as they have the biggest overall impact on the tier. I really hope that one day we get to resuspect Tera again, but until then this is the best we have to fix the tier.
 
About the separate ladders proposition: a metagame isn't only about its ladder, but also all the ressources, tournaments, tiering actions and forum activities related to it. You still would have to choose which one is the official natdex for these reasons, and also give some kind of support to the other one, which implies you'll have to find staff and contributors for it - natdex AG was nuked exactly because this tier lacked that. To be honest I do think the playerbase split argument don't hold at all, but separating ladders is still not a realistic proposition for reasons unrelated to that.
Ladders exist for obscure tiers as far out as Gen6 pure hackmons, gen8 JolteMons randbats, gen2 randbats and gen4 doubles OU. If these formats can receive enough interest to warrant a ladder im sure the 50%+ of this tier who want a teraless ladder can find more than enough qualified people to support it through forums, tiering, tournaments and everything else that goes into running a tier, id even help out and dedicate my time to getting it setup if it means we can get a playable metagame.

It doesn't even have to be called natdex, the absolute chaos tera tier can be the "official" natdex forever. If splitting is not realistic or even at bare minimum getting a teraless ladder how about making a new tier and ladder with an entirely different concept.

If the concept of natdex is to make all the dex cut mons from gen7 and earlier transferable up to gen9 mechanics, Id like to propose a new tier that does the opposite: make all the mons and items from gen8 and gen9 transferable back to gen7 mechanics or gen8 mechanics hell we can even bring back old ash gren and iapapa berries. Like i said it doesnt even have to be called NationalDex call it [gen7] FutureDex or Teraless Natdex or whatever you want to come up with but im sure theres enough support to warrant atleast a ladder if all these other tiers and ladders can exist that are so unplayed you can make top 500 being at 1043 elo.

someones probably gonna say that this is not the correct place to ask for a new tier but the essence of what im proposing is highly relevant to the natdex community and you can feel free to point me in the right direction of who i would have to talk with to request such a tier.
 
Ladders exist for obscure tiers as far out as Gen6 pure hackmons, gen8 JolteMons randbats, gen2 randbats and gen4 doubles OU. If these formats can receive enough interest to warrant a ladder im sure the 50%+ of this tier who want a teraless ladder can find more than enough qualified people to support it through forums, tiering, tournaments and everything else that goes into running a tier, id even help out and dedicate my time to getting it setup if it means we can get a playable metagame.
I couldn't tell you exactly why these tiers have a ladder on PS, but if I am not mistaken gen6 is the most popular pure hackmon gen (I believe it also is the only gen that forces an EVs cap in this format), JolteMons is literally the only ladder the PetMod community has on PS, and every gen gets a randbats ladder. I don't know anything about DPP Doubles but I imagine it wasn't put there randomly, especially since it is one of the metagames featured in the upcoming Derby tournament, which aims to develop lesser seen doubles tiers. If you dig around for any ladder on this website I'm sure you can find out why these exist.

I also personally believe it would be an horrible timing to open a non tera ladder: NatDex is already going through difficult times right now, and even though I generally dislike the "community splitting" argument when arguing about creating new metagames, in this specific case I'd be extremely reluctant to do that. It also sets a really dangerous precedent: are we really going to create new ladders every time a suspect decision doesn't go our way? We told pro-dyna people to cope last gen when that mechanic got banned, and now it is our turn.

You still are free to play with your own rules with other people, like every other natdex other tiers did when they started, but in the current state of things I'm am completely against giving support to a teraless natdex format right now, as my current priority is to keep the tier afloat despite the doomer atmosphere going on right now. I might be more favorable to the idea in the future once things settled down, but not now.
 
Sharing some thoughts here re: the metagame, several of the proposed tiering solutions, recent events, etc., against my better judgment...

:lopunny-mega: On the Metagame Generally :tornadus-therian:

While it is clear that a large number of players are dissatisfied with the results of the Tera suspect, I do not think the tier is in such utter disarray that we need to take drastic measures to stabilize it moving forward. I have personally tried to be as active in the Nat Dex tour scene as my life will allow, playing near the max number of Winter SSNL games, World Cup, a full NDLT ladder cycle with playoffs in addition to several suspects and smaller tours. To say that the present metagame is unplayable or hopelessly unsalvageable feels hyperbolic, and does not fairly account for how much progress has been (and still can be) made through reasonably timed and measured tiering decisions. Early SSNL games felt like pure matchup fishing, for reasons I need not unpack. By the end of SSNL, games felt stable enough to allow more traditional balance structures a fighting chance to succeed, with Zamazenta easily surviving a suspect test in early April as people began to feel more comfortable fitting natural answers to strong wallbreakers such as this. Subsequently, we banned all three of Annihilape, Walking Wake and Shed Tail. This did a world of good for bulkier teams to have a shot at existing at all, and we saw some development and different takes on those structures both during early team tours and as NDWC progressed. Conversely, offense took some reasonable hits as the prevalence of screens HO died down with the Espathra and Shed Tail bans, and while Rain is still incredibly consistent, I no longer see much discussion about banning things like Damp Rock or individual rain abusers as was once considered. I raise all of these points not to distract from the problems that the tier still has, but to emphasize that we can and have made reasonable adaptations notwithstanding Tera’s presence in the tier, and the metagame is surely not the same or worse today as it was several months ago.

:kingambit: How to Approach Tiering Moving Forward :kingambit:

Moving from the past to the present, the only form of immediate tiering action that makes sense to me would be a Kingambit suspect test within the coming weeks. To be fully transparent, I personally believe Kingambit is a necessary evil for this tier, serving both an indispensable defensive role as a blanket soft-check on bulkier teams while serving as a panic-button check to many faster, boosted offensive threats that could otherwise snowball out of control. I think the tier has enough options to keep it in check, and if you are trying to reduce variance within a tier, banning a role-compressing defensive glue and popular revenge killer seems contrary to that goal. My personal thoughts aside, however, Kingambit has unquestionably been the supreme overlord of the tier for some time, it is arguably the most egregious Tera abuser we have, and it has late-game sweeping potential that must be accounted for both in the builder and during games on a level incomparable to anything else we have seen. You cannot even say that Kingambit forces “50/50” interactions, as I am sure when you factor in Sucker mind games, about six or seven viable Tera types on top of Pursuit mind games and the potential for Iron Head flinching, your odds are probably less than 50% and far more situationally determined than anything else. This is an issue I feel the community should ultimately decide, and regardless of the result, I believe the council would have far greater clarity as to how to proceed on other potential targets given how intimately their fate is wedded to Kingambit's fate in the tier.

:Dragapult: Other Tiering Proposals :Gholdengo:

As for the other proposals, this is probably evident but I am not fond of mass-Quickban slates or “kokoloko-esq” ban and retest waves. These approaches are often proposed under the nebulous guise of “lowering the power level” of the tier, with the implication being that if we simply reduce the number of offensive threats and/or remove the most powerful offenders, it will allow for a less-centralized approach to teambuilding. In turn, this should ideally free up teambuilding resources to allow players to cover a greater number of overall matchups, thus reducing the number of auto-losses at team preview.

This sounds great in theory, until you try and articulate what the end goal is supposed to look like when you apply this ideology in practice. I have no idea what the “optimal” power level should be in a tier with this many options and mechanics to choose from. You have to accept at some point that you may build an excellent team that simply cannot cover every matchup, and that you will likely struggle in those matchups. This was largely US East’s teambuilding approach throughout NDWC, and you can judge by the result whether it was a successful philosophy or not. At some point the community will need to draw a line as to what level of variance is acceptable and what level is too much, and now that the “what should we do about Tera” question has been resolved, I see this as the primary focus of tiering moving forward.

:tapu-lele: Reducing Power Level vs Reducing Variance :Volcarona:

Moreover, I am not convinced that there is a direct connection between the current power level of the tier and the overall level of variance you have to account for in the builder, which is the actual root cause of the issues in the present metagame. During the “Big 5” metagame last generation (ft. :metagross-mega::greninja-ash::darmanitan-galar::tornadus-therian::urshifu:), the power level of the tier was clearly the root of the problem. You could not run SpDef Hippowdon or AV Tangrowth and still hope to stave off Mega Metagross, just as you could not often get away with mixed EV Toxapex with Ash-Greninja and Dracovish simultaneously running around together, nor could you stomach Wicked Blows from Urshifu for too long without very specific defensive cores to begin with. The power level of these pokemon forced teams to be constructed to cover specific threats at the expense of others, and the teambuilding flowchart broke down to a point where it no longer made sense to run anything apart from the extremes.

Comparing this to the present metagame, the issue is not that we have a small handful of powerful centralizing offensive threats which require individually separate answers, as we did during “Big 5”. The issue is that we have a much larger pool of individually manageable offensive threats, whose many viable permutations cannot be fully accounted for in a team of six pokemon. I think the way to address this problem moving forward is to focus less on whether individual pokemon are “broken” in a traditional sense, and focus more on their net-impact on the level of variance within the tier. Putting this into practice, I believe this approach better accounts for more defensively oriented pokemon like Garganacl, Heatran and Gliscor, who can shut down teams without being any more powerful now than they were before, as well as pokemon like Volcarona, Sneasler, Baxcalibur, potentially Cresselia, etc. that may have the tools to beat you on preview but probably do not pass the threshold for "brokenness" under traditional definitions.

Conclusion

If people see things differently then I encourage them to share their thoughts to the contrary of whatever I have provided here. We are all better-served if people feel able to share things here, rather than handing the counsel unscientific survey data once every few months only to inevitably complain that they took the wrong approach.

Tl:dr – Suspect Kingambit, tier with net-impact on variance in mind, monitor the meta and go from there.
 
Sharing some thoughts here re: the metagame, several of the proposed tiering solutions, recent events, etc., against my better judgment...

:lopunny-mega: On the Metagame Generally :tornadus-therian:

While it is clear that a large number of players are dissatisfied with the results of the Tera suspect, I do not think the tier is in such utter disarray that we need to take drastic measures to stabilize it moving forward. I have personally tried to be as active in the Nat Dex tour scene as my life will allow, playing near the max number of Winter SSNL games, World Cup, a full NDLT ladder cycle with playoffs in addition to several suspects and smaller tours. To say that the present metagame is unplayable or hopelessly unsalvageable feels hyperbolic, and does not fairly account for how much progress has been (and still can be) made through reasonably timed and measured tiering decisions. Early SSNL games felt like pure matchup fishing, for reasons I need not unpack. By the end of SSNL, games felt stable enough to allow more traditional balance structures a fighting chance to succeed, with Zamazenta easily surviving a suspect test in early April as people began to feel more comfortable fitting natural answers to strong wallbreakers such as this. Subsequently, we banned all three of Annihilape, Walking Wake and Shed Tail. This did a world of good for bulkier teams to have a shot at existing at all, and we saw some development and different takes on those structures both during early team tours and as NDWC progressed. Conversely, offense took some reasonable hits as the prevalence of screens HO died down with the Espathra and Shed Tail bans, and while Rain is still incredibly consistent, I no longer see much discussion about banning things like Damp Rock or individual rain abusers as was once considered. I raise all of these points not to distract from the problems that the tier still has, but to emphasize that we can and have made reasonable adaptations notwithstanding Tera’s presence in the tier, and the metagame is surely not the same or worse today as it was several months ago.

:kingambit: How to Approach Tiering Moving Forward :kingambit:

Moving from the past to the present, the only form of immediate tiering action that makes sense to me would be a Kingambit suspect test within the coming weeks. To be fully transparent, I personally believe Kingambit is a necessary evil for this tier, serving both an indispensable defensive role as a blanket soft-check on bulkier teams while serving as a panic-button check to many faster, boosted offensive threats that could otherwise snowball out of control. I think the tier has enough options to keep it in check, and if you are trying to reduce variance within a tier, banning a role-compressing defensive glue and popular revenge killer seems contrary to that goal. My personal thoughts aside, however, Kingambit has unquestionably been the supreme overlord of the tier for some time, it is arguably the most egregious Tera abuser we have, and it has late-game sweeping potential that must be accounted for both in the builder and during games on a level incomparable to anything else we have seen. You cannot even say that Kingambit forces “50/50” interactions, as I am sure when you factor in Sucker mind games, about six or seven viable Tera types on top of Pursuit mind games and the potential for Iron Head flinching, your odds are probably less than 50% and far more situationally determined than anything else. This is an issue I feel the community should ultimately decide, and regardless of the result, I believe the council would have far greater clarity as to how to proceed on other potential targets given how intimately their fate is wedded to Kingambit's fate in the tier.

:Dragapult: Other Tiering Proposals :Gholdengo:

As for the other proposals, this is probably evident but I am not fond of mass-Quickban slates or “kokoloko-esq” ban and retest waves. These approaches are often proposed under the nebulous guise of “lowering the power level” of the tier, with the implication being that if we simply reduce the number of offensive threats and/or remove the most powerful offenders, it will allow for a less-centralized approach to teambuilding. In turn, this should ideally free up teambuilding resources to allow players to cover a greater number of overall matchups, thus reducing the number of auto-losses at team preview.

This sounds great in theory, until you try and articulate what the end goal is supposed to look like when you apply this ideology in practice. I have no idea what the “optimal” power level should be in a tier with this many options and mechanics to choose from. You have to accept at some point that you may build an excellent team that simply cannot cover every matchup, and that you will likely struggle in those matchups. This was largely US East’s teambuilding approach throughout NDWC, and you can judge by the result whether it was a successful philosophy or not. At some point the community will need to draw a line as to what level of variance is acceptable and what level is too much, and now that the “what should we do about Tera” question has been resolved, I see this as the primary focus of tiering moving forward.

:tapu-lele: Reducing Power Level vs Reducing Variance :Volcarona:

Moreover, I am not convinced that there is a direct connection between the current power level of the tier and the overall level of variance you have to account for in the builder, which is the actual root cause of the issues in the present metagame. During the “Big 5” metagame last generation (ft. :metagross-mega::greninja-ash::darmanitan-galar::tornadus-therian::urshifu:), the power level of the tier was clearly the root of the problem. You could not run SpDef Hippowdon or AV Tangrowth and still hope to stave off Mega Metagross, just as you could not often get away with mixed EV Toxapex with Ash-Greninja and Dracovish simultaneously running around together, nor could you stomach Wicked Blows from Urshifu for too long without very specific defensive cores to begin with. The power level of these pokemon forced teams to be constructed to cover specific threats at the expense of others, and the teambuilding flowchart broke down to a point where it no longer made sense to run anything apart from the extremes.

Comparing this to the present metagame, the issue is not that we have a small handful of powerful centralizing offensive threats which require individually separate answers, as we did during “Big 5”. The issue is that we have a much larger pool of individually manageable offensive threats, whose many viable permutations cannot be fully accounted for in a team of six pokemon. I think the way to address this problem moving forward is to focus less on whether individual pokemon are “broken” in a traditional sense, and focus more on their net-impact on the level of variance within the tier. Putting this into practice, I believe this approach better accounts for more defensively oriented pokemon like Garganacl, Heatran and Gliscor, who can shut down teams without being any more powerful now than they were before, as well as pokemon like Volcarona, Sneasler, Baxcalibur, potentially Cresselia, etc. that may have the tools to beat you on preview but probably do not pass the threshold for "brokenness" under traditional definitions.

Conclusion

If people see things differently then I encourage them to share their thoughts to the contrary of whatever I have provided here. We are all better-served if people feel able to share things here, rather than handing the counsel unscientific survey data once every few months only to inevitably complain that they took the wrong approach.

Tl:dr – Suspect Kingambit, tier with net-impact on variance in mind, monitor the meta and go from there.

Countless people on the thread are mentioning it as by far the first culprit for a tiering action for a good reason.

There is no doubt possible that the tier is in a dire need of immediate changes, and opinions like this only serve slowing down the process and keeping the player experience most dreadful.

You're talking about variety but if anything gambit only restricts teambuilding and forces players like no other before to drop various mons they'd rather use for a "check" of this abberation just to end up still reverse swept by it Tera flying in the end.

I'm not sure what the council are waiting for to announce a quickban at this point. Especially after the Tera decision that made a lot of the playerbase feel letdown, this is the perfect timing to introduce immediate changes to alleviate some of the doom going around and provide a breath of fresh air.
 
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Yeah no, a certain country are huge gambit fans/abusers, they already decided the outcome of Tera, we're not letting the same happen with this abberation of a pokemon that clearly belongs in the Uber tier and deserved a ban before many mons that are gone already.

Countless people on the thread are mentioning it as by far the first culprit for a tiering action for a good reason.

There is no doubt possible that the tier is in a dire need of immediate changes, and opinions like this only serve slowing down the process and keeping the player experience most dreadful.

You're talking about variety but if anything gambit only restricts teambuilding and forces players like no other before to drop various mons they'd rather use for a "check" of this abberation just to end up still reverse swept by it Tera flying in the end.

I'm not sure what the council are waiting for to announce a quickban at this point. Especially after the Tera decision that made a lot of the playerbase feel letdown, this is the perfect timing to introduce immediate changes to alleviate some of the doom going around and provide a breath of fresh air.

kingambit can't really get qbd, its a huge part of the tier, regardless of if its broken or not, and as lameflame put it, outright removing one of the best defensive pokemon in the tier that's also keeping some of the scariest mons in the tier in check (gholdengo and pult) isn't just something you can do on a friday afternoon with little forethought. If and when gambit gets suspected, it's going to massively change the landscape of the tier if it goes though, so the tier should be able to throw in their 2 cents, albeit hopefully with slightly adjusted requirements to vote
 
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