Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[TheShoddyStrawman]

In response to a lot cutiefly unbans, I'll just re link the post I made about the little bug which is here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3656348/post-9254390

Without quiver dance it becomes much less powerful, but it still has a lot of things to worry about, such as:
Unreliable/a small number of checks
Hard to check defensively
Shield dust
Psychic +Fairy Stab + Bug Stab
A ridiculous support movepool

I'm not opposed to a cutiefly suspect with no quiver dance, but I'm getting the feeling already that its not going to end well.

 

[gali]

Seconding support for looking at Cutiefly; I think it would help alleviate the diversity and speed-tie issues we see in the current meta. Another mon that I think is worth looking at is Vulpix-Alola. The snow fox would add a really interesting wrinkle to the meta as a viable offensive Ice-type, which is relatively unprepared for in the current meta. In addition, the broken screens abusers (NP Vullaby, Scraggy, Zigzagoon) have all been banned, which would make Veils cheese a lot less viable. If it's still a problem we can always look at Light Clay. The obvious downside is that it's yet another 17 Speed mon, but I think A-Pix would overall be a healthy addition to the meta.

 

[Coconut]

Officially putting a stop to Cutiefly unban + Quiver Dance ban discussion. Any further discussion will be dependent on Cutiefly having Quiver Dance. Bringing it up again will result in an infraction—I don't care who you are.

For those unaware of why we do not do this, it goes against the general policy and framework of Smogon, in that we do not ban an element of the Pokemon. An example of this would be Blaziken and Speed Boost. Even though we are all aware that Blaziken would not have been broken in Gen 5 OU without Speed Boost, we cannot remove an element of a Pokemon just to make it a balanced aspect of the metagame. We could be doing things like removing Neutralizing Gas from Koffing, Nasty Plot from Vullaby, or Download from Porygon, and all of these are essentially removing the tools that these Pokemon were originally given.

If you're looking for something, it has to be Cutiefly in full or something else entirely.

 

[Berks]

This most recent suspect was disappointing for me, because I enjoyed Vullaby meta. The trouble now is that none of the potential unbans relieve our current problems (17 Speed tier, mandatory Fight/Poison/Steel constructions, etc) without aggravating other troubles or reintroducing old issues.

I've voted no ban on every one of the 6 LC suspects I've voted in since ORAS, because every time I've voted, I've thought that the benefits certain mons bring outweigh their costs. I think it's time to examine that.

My suggestion is that we suspect Mienfoo with a Mienfoo-less suspect ladder. Everybody knows what the Mienfoo meta looks like, but the one thing we've never seriously tried is a meta without Mienfoo. Here is a short list of things that might be more enjoyable in a meta without Mienfoo:

• The trouble with the 17 Speed tier is nearly eliminated, as it leaves only Grookey, Natu, Carvanha, and to a lesser extent Onix, Vulpix, and Archen as occupants. The nice thing is that for the better mons (the first three) you should have a primary check separate from the others, so a speed tie loss may not be as devastating as with Mienfoo speed tie wars, and the latter three are less common. It's still obnoxious, but it's potentially much less obnoxious.
• Builders are forced to pick Fighting-type mons with less role compression. If they want priority, they'll need Timburr (or Croagunk if they're throwing). If they want a fast Pivot fighting type, they'll need a Scarf Pancham (or normal Pancham for a slow pivot).
• The Fighting-type check slot is no longer as restricted, as a player will no longer have safe U-turns into trappers. The slot is no longer as difficult to fill well, as we can deviate away from hard Koffing picks designed to stuff Regenerator on Mienfoo to make progress and avoid trapping.
• The above two points ease the rigidity of the Fight/Poison/Steel constructions we see now.

And, of course, to be fair, here are a couple things that might be worse without Mienfoo:

• The tier's most reliable Knock Off absorber is gone. This is a big one, but one of the tier's most reliable Knock Off spreaders will also be gone.
• Pawniard and to a lesser extent Porygon lose a very good check. They are not check-less, of course, as Timburr Mach Punch and other goodmons can combine to take care of them.

But, of course, all of this is a hypothetical, because we've never played a Mienfoo-less metagame. If we aren't willing to reintroduce a strong bird to keep Mienfoo in check, I say we try taking a look a metagame without Mienfoo.

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

This most recent suspect was disappointing for me, because I enjoyed Vullaby meta. The trouble now is that none of the potential unbans relieve our current problems (17 Speed tier, mandatory Fight/Poison/Steel constructions, etc) without aggravating other troubles or reintroducing old issues.

I've voted no ban on every one of the 6 LC suspects I've voted in since ORAS, because every time I've voted, I've thought that the benefits certain mons bring outweigh their costs. I think it's time to examine that.

My suggestion is that we suspect Mienfoo with a Mienfoo-less suspect ladder. Everybody knows what the Mienfoo meta looks like, but the one thing we've never seriously tried is a meta without Mienfoo. Here is a short list of things that might be more enjoyable in a meta without Mienfoo:

• The trouble with the 17 Speed tier is nearly eliminated, as it leaves only Grookey, Natu, Carvanha, and to a lesser extent Onix, Vulpix, and Archen as occupants. The nice thing is that for the better mons (the first three) you should have a primary check separate from the others, so a speed tie loss may not be as devastating as with Mienfoo speed tie wars, and the latter three are less common. It's still obnoxious, but it's potentially much less obnoxious.
• Builders are forced to pick Fighting-type mons with less role compression. If they want priority, they'll need Timburr (or Croagunk if they're throwing). If they want a fast Pivot fighting type, they'll need a Scarf Pancham (or normal Pancham for a slow pivot).
• The Fighting-type check slot is no longer as restricted, as a player will no longer have safe U-turns into trappers. The slot is no longer as difficult to fill well, as we can deviate away from hard Koffing picks designed to stuff Regenerator on Mienfoo to make progress and avoid trapping.
• The above two points ease the rigidity of the Fight/Poison/Steel constructions we see now.

And, of course, to be fair, here are a couple things that might be worse without Mienfoo:

• The tier's most reliable Knock Off absorber is gone. This is a big one, but one of the tier's most reliable Knock Off spreaders will also be gone.
• Pawniard and to a lesser extent Porygon lose a very good check. They are not check-less, of course, as Timburr Mach Punch and other goodmons can combine to take care of them.

But, of course, all of this is a hypothetical, because we've never played a Mienfoo-less metagame. If we aren't willing to reintroduce a strong bird to keep Mienfoo in check, I say we try taking a look a metagame without Mienfoo.

I'm going to push back a bit here, as I think you're getting a bit of stuff wrong. The idea seems interesting, but I feel like your arguments are a bit off.

Carvanha rarely has 17 speed, as due to speed boost you're outspeeding after a boost anyway. Not to mention it outright beats everything minus Grookey or scarf Archen due to Flip Turn and Crunch.

Pancham's Parting Shot is significantly more exploitable than Mienfoo's U turn, as if your opponent predicts correctly, Pawniard gets a +3 in attack and you're switching out your fighting type that could have dealt with it. Unless you're running both Pancham and Timburr, one wrong Parting Shot can lose you significant ground, if not the game. Not to mention Natu can use Magic Bounce to deny you the switch and gain more momentum itself. In addition, both Timburr and Pancham are quite slow for the tier, reaching at max 15 for Pancham and 14 for Timburr. Natu becomes stupidly good if Foo is removed, as neither want to stay in, and if Natu U turns and they stay in, then you can go to your fighting check/counter. If they don't stay in, Natu U turns for free. Psychic is significantly harder for either of them to take when they have no reliable recovery.

Ponyta, Grookey, and Carv all lose their common check in Mienfoo, and Timburr can only check Carv better. Ponyta can't set up on Foo due to HJK KOing through Berry Juice. EDIT: Its a range to kill with HJK, but the point is that with rocks up Foo has a significantly better chance to kill with HJK, its not a guaranteed OHKO. Plus you get regenerator to possibly check Ponya multiple times. Timburr can't KO Ponyta with drain punch without rocks support + chip damage and Pancham has no way of stopping Ponyta except by taking a hard hit to the face. Grookey can U turn on both of them and isn't forced to use Grassy Glide due to the Mienfoo Speed tie and Pancham is significantly exploitable by Carvanha.

I'm not going to say whether or not the mienfoo-less ladder would be good or not, but I felt it pertinent to add this information. We could end up with Fighting Types becoming significantly more niche in the tier if Mienfoo is removed. However, I think its important to ensure our justifications for a Mienfoo-less meta are strong and robust.

 

[wesh papillon]

Hey yall, I would like to propose something that would make the tier better for everyone:

the great cheese ban

​

reasoning: while cheese isnt centralizing at all, I believe some forms of cheese to be very **degenerate**, pathing with most cheeses is basically a mini game. U might have a 50/50 here or there but overall they are super linear. basically the team can often be mostly **decided at mu**. There isnt really much room for maneuvering with these. Furthermore, unlike centralizing pokemons, banning these doesnt really change the building or the meta in 99% of cases.

Should 100% be banned:



This item is just dumb and should 100% be removed. It enables maybe the stupidest archetype atm.



Again this pokemon is just dumb. it will 6-0 pretty normal teams that would otherwise do fine in most MU.

Should prob be banned:



This dude is just a cheese win button, the counterplay to it exists but in practice its just a stupid mon that wins games it otherwise shouldnt.



Not the pokemon natu, just the move cosmic power, tho ik me saying this will make the policy ppl rally their pitchforks. If it weren't for policy meme shit this move should also just we wipped of the face of the earth.


Maybe? I think these are fine:



spikes are sorta cheesy, but overall has a lot more back and forth and interactivity (aka actual gameplay)



I think sun Is easily the worst cheese and if the rest were banned it wouldnt be too hard to handle for most teams. Still sun is basically a mini game as well.


As u figured out from most of my posts im not one for big posts, so feel free to add on with ur own reasons why these things are dumb and bad.

Finally


At a high level: Prepping vs cheese is kinda of nightmare and having a favored player lose cuz they got mu fish by some cheese is super cringe. Building good cheese is a skill I think everyone should be behind, measuring how good you are at mu fishing it just dumb. Most skilled players dont really seem to be willing to risk a win on a mini game (makes sense), so you dont see it as much at the end of Indiv tours. Cheese is a crutch that managers and players use to have u 3k to snipe a win off a player you think they would have no chance to beat in a real game.

At a mid level ( the like 1300-1599 type of players): I often have ppl dm me replay of them losing to like a shellos or a magby and asking how they could've played better. The truth is that most of the time they didnt make a major mistake, their team (which normally are good teams that can play vs other bo's) just could not handle it. Most of the time, these newer players will just grab there 1-2 teams, go on Ladd, and just hope to god theres no lame cheese lord on ladder that day.


for (almost) Everyone: almost all of these cheeses are, according to everyone ive ever spoken too. Super lame as shit to play against. Most players are cool with getting out skilled by a better player using something unique or something they didnt see coming. Losing ur whole to a magby behind screen or a shellos due to no crit isnt fun for anyone. Almsot no one wants to fight cheese unless they are fishing for a mu fish (yes thats a sentence I just said). For all non magby or meowth users, having actual interactive games with actual gameplay is a lot more fun.

​

 

[Berks]

A team isn’t good if the only matchups it can win are against other bulky offense teams

In my opinion, even though it takes longer to lose to a crit-me-not Shellos than to lose to a Swords Dance Grookey it doesn’t make it any more or less skillful. Just two solid threats you should prep for.

Light Clay is obnoxious for sure and is probably the only thing that would be worth looking at, but it would still be a stretch I think. Also if it were to be banned, undoing the Alolapix ban would probably be prudent too, but maybe not.

 

[Éric]

ok i will be comparing with ou bans in this post a lot i hope this doesnt bother anyone since i think its necessary. also i dont hate on pap or anything, i appreciate his posts, i will just use his recent one to make my points.

about paps post

while cheese isnt centralizing at all, I believe some forms of cheese to be very **degenerate**, pathing with most cheeses is basically a mini game. U might have a 50/50 here or there but overall they are super linear. basically the team can often be mostly **decided at mu**. There isnt really much room for maneuvering with these.

i completely disagree with this point. first off, because (as i understand by this description, we are talking about ho) hyper offensive teams dont equal cheese necessarily, as a cheesy strategy is something hit or miss, relying on "either itll work or it wont" or "ill get carried by this broken mon" rather than outskilling like any other archetype, and most of the times, ho fits the second category, this metagame being an example for this.
still, screens arent degenerate as i see them, and certainly games arent decided at matchup. you dont win vs screens by outplaying, in any metagame, you win by positioning yourself to not lose and, if you can, to outright sweep. this is true for the non screens player: they have to play the game in a way that allows the least amount of mons dead and/or not giving the deadliest opposing mon a free turn of set up. on the other hand, the screening player has to position themselves to set up and win, normally lowering some key opposing pokemons health first with the rest of the team. with this, plays arent telegraphed, as double switches are hugely important in ho games, and so is stalling out turns sometimes. positioning is key in these games, and that isnt something that plays itself.

Furthermore, unlike centralizing pokemons, banning these doesnt really change the building or the meta in 99% of cases.

i also strongly disagree with this, in the ho case. see, cp natu and shellos are dumb and add nothing, i agree, but screens do add. ho is a valid playstyle, which isnt broken atm (id argue its bad lol the only good screens abuser rn is tyrunt, which isnt screens exclusive, and actually works better as a standalone mon in a bo. using screens just cause of tyrunt means you are running tyrunt and other sweepers that arent nearly as effective, bc screens abusers rn outside of tyrunt arent good imo), and as explained above, isnt linear either. it is a part of the metagame, one which adds depth to it (remember that smogon metagames arent bo vs bo only tho, or that bo isnt the only playstyle that matters). it wouldnt make sense to ban it just because.

spikes are sorta cheesy, but overall has a lot more back and forth and interactivity (aka actual gameplay)

kinda the same thing here. spikes ho teams (not cheesy) exchange set up based mons for hard hitters, but the counterplay is sorta the same: position yourself well to either not get spiked or be able to spin them. abusers arent as strong with spikes and everyone knocked, so try to pressure yourself with your mienfoo and stuff, and youll be fine. nothing banworthy here whatsoever

Again this pokemon is just dumb. it will 6-0 pretty normal teams that would otherwise do fine in most MU.


Not the pokemon natu, just the move cosmic power, tho ik me saying this will make the policy ppl rally their pitchforks. If it weren't for policy meme shit this move should also just we wipped of the face of the earth.

i kinda agree here, even if i absolutely hate the policy meme movement, you guys have really no idea how important that shit is oh my fucking god.
even if i think both these sets are bad for the same reason (if you use them, you will get crit. using these mons only means you are saying you are worse than your opponent but you wanna lose to ""luck"" rather than admitting it, especially shellos which is a blob that will not only get crit, but also paralyzed. also both lose to final gambit), but even if they are bad, they add nothing. literally, its only cheese and guaranteed losses to crits. idt we can ban the natu set tho, itd have to be natu on its own (policy is really important, we would be playing shitty vgc if it wasnt for it,a nd we all know how fucking terrible vgc is)

I think sun Is easily the worst cheese and if the rest were banned it wouldnt be too hard to handle for most teams. Still sun is basically a mini game as well.

sun is probably the worst form of ho rn, it loses to so much. you dont prepare for it, you dont need to, you always will have all the tools you need: priorities (especially fake out, but also sucker and even grassy glide), waters (especially carvanha, frillish and spin star), trappers, rocks,and mienfoo. sure you can lose to it, everyone gets outplayed, but theres nothing cheesey about it, if you lose l2p bc its really likely you couldve done things better
im not touching on magby since idt anyone actually believes that shit is anywhere near banworthy but i will if i get asked fsr or something lol

At a high level: Prepping vs cheese is kinda of nightmare and having a favored player lose cuz they got mu fish by some cheese is super cringe. Building good cheese is a skill I think everyone should be behind, measuring how good you are at mu fishing it just dumb. Most skilled players dont really seem to be willing to risk a win on a mini game (makes sense), so you dont see it as much at the end of Indiv tours. Cheese is a crutch that managers and players use to have u 3k to snipe a win off a player you think they would have no chance to beat in a real game.

you dont need to prep for what you call cheese (ill separate it into ho and shellos): usual bo teams have all the tools they need to succeed. as i stated before, positioning is a hugely important aspect of playing vs ho, as you dont need checks to everything if they cant even come out. usual teams will have priority, bulky mons, hazard control of some sort and trappers or scarfers. all these things help vs ho, and the mons that are in ho usually dont need dedicated checks, as they are either weak to priority or scarfers, and even then some regular bo mons are able to check the sweepers. i get screens being annoying bc bulk is doubled so checking is harder, but all teams have rocks and fake out (+ protect even) to limit the amount of screens and stall their duration. as for shellos, just crit it. its really simple. every team has some form of status (para) and mons able to crit it. you dont need to prep for shellos, because it naturally loses to regular teams. also hard walled by frillish LOL

i get wanting to ban cheesing aspects of the game. i have some really extreme opinions on the matter (i 100% wholeheartedly think all forms of baton pass, sleep and luck items should be banned and you cant convince me otherwise), but i just cant agree with banning any and all forms of ho in this very metagame. there is one thing the ou bans that have already happened in this instance (luck items, baton pass) have that these "problems" within lc dont have: they didnt have downsides. you dont lose much if anything by running bright powder serperior instead of leftovers or whatever, and you dont lose anything at all running baton pass because its broken as shit, but you certainly do if you run a shellos, or if you run a whole team dedicated to abuse screens. screens could become an issue, thats for sure, but for now these things just arent at the same level. they arent good enough to warrant a ban, and unlike the luck items which also werent as good (they were worse actually), you do lose a lot by running them, and you can very much lose because of that.

 

[gali]

Hi everyone! I want to expand on a discussion the community had on discord a few days ago and talk about Natu, and why I think tiering action towards it may be the solution to the issues the current meta has.

I'll start off by acknowledging that Natu is not broken in the traditional sense of the word. It has quite a few effective checks, is an unreliable check to top threats like Mienfoo and Grookey thanks to Speed ties, and is not very strong. However, Natu's combination of traits (Magic Bounce, 17 Speed, 4x Fighting resistance, Fire coverage) work together to warp the meta into a state where competitive teams are restricted to a small set of viable Pokemon, of which many sit in the same Speed tier. This leads to endgames commonly coming down to speed ties, a situation that is counter to Smogon's tiering policy, which emphasizes that the more skilled player should win the majority of the time.

The most obvious example of how Natu centralizes teambuilding is in team's choice of Fighting-types. In previous generations/iterations of SS where threats like Gastly and Vullaby made Natu unviable, Timburr was a very viable alternative to Mienfoo with its greater natural bulk and access to Mach Punch. However, with Natu dominant, Timburr becomes hard to justify using at all, since it requires perfect prediction to get any damage off on Natu and is outsped and almost OHKOed in return. This effect is also noticeable with Mienfoo itself; slowfoo spreads have almost completely died out, only seeing usage as a borderline gimmick in the Mienfoo lead mirror, because the 17 speed set can actually threaten Natu by forcing a speed tie. (not to mention Scarf sets, which Natu completely invalidates.) This gravitation to 17 speed which Natu forces is in my opinion the ultimate cause of the speed tie-heavy endgames that are plaguing LC right now.

Of course, forcing universal usage of 17 Speed Mienfoo isn't the only effect Natu has had on teambuilding. Natu's presence has rendered Foongus almost completely irrelevant, as it can brainlessly switch in only fearing a Sludge Bomb poison. This reduces the pool of viable Fighting resists to 2 (3 if you count Larvesta), which again leads to mirrors and speed ties. Koffing and Mareanie are also inconsistent Grookey answers, so Natu's presence compounds the centralization issue users like Acehunter have raised about Grookey. Natu also severely hampers Ferroseed's ability to do anything other than click Knock Off and switch out, meaning that most teams opt to use Pawniard instead.

Lastly, I'll touch on usage. Natu's usage has been upticking noticeably in tournament play this year; it saw ~40% usage in the spring seasonal and is seeing ~60% usage in LCPL thus far. If this trend continues, we can expect Natu's impact on teambuilding to become only more pronounced and see more and more games ending in speed ties. This will greatly reduce the instances of the more skilled player winning a given game, which is why Natu should be looked at for tiering action.

And all of this goes without mentioning the Cosmic Power set, which is a completely different variety of total bullshit.

tl;dr Natu limits viable options in the teambuilder to a select set of mons, many of which share speed tiers, leading to an increasing number of games being decided by speed tie. This is an unhealthy influence on the meta and grounds for tiering action.

 

[Colin]

Hi everyone! I want to expand on a discussion the community had on discord a few days ago and talk about Natu, and why I think tiering action towards it may be the solution to the issues the current meta has.

I'll start off by acknowledging that Natu is not broken in the traditional sense of the word. It has quite a few effective checks, is an unreliable check to top threats like Mienfoo and Grookey thanks to Speed ties, and is not very strong. However, Natu's combination of traits (Magic Bounce, 17 Speed, 4x Fighting resistance, Fire coverage) work together to warp the meta into a state where competitive teams are restricted to a small set of viable Pokemon, of which many sit in the same Speed tier. This leads to endgames commonly coming down to speed ties, a situation that is counter to Smogon's tiering policy, which emphasizes that the more skilled player should win the majority of the time.

The most obvious example of how Natu centralizes teambuilding is in team's choice of Fighting-types. In previous generations/iterations of SS where threats like Gastly and Vullaby made Natu unviable, Timburr was a very viable alternative to Mienfoo with its greater natural bulk and access to Mach Punch. However, with Natu dominant, Timburr becomes hard to justify using at all, since it requires perfect prediction to get any damage off on Natu and is outsped and almost OHKOed in return. This effect is also noticeable with Mienfoo itself; slowfoo spreads have almost completely died out, only seeing usage as a borderline gimmick in the Mienfoo lead mirror, because the 17 speed set can actually threaten Natu by forcing a speed tie. (not to mention Scarf sets, which Natu completely invalidates.) This gravitation to 17 speed which Natu forces is in my opinion the ultimate cause of the speed tie-heavy endgames that are plaguing LC right now.

Of course, forcing universal usage of 17 Speed Mienfoo isn't the only effect Natu has had on teambuilding. Natu's presence has rendered Foongus almost completely irrelevant, as it can brainlessly switch in only fearing a Sludge Bomb poison. This reduces the pool of viable Fighting resists to 2 (3 if you count Larvesta), which again leads to mirrors and speed ties. Koffing and Mareanie are also inconsistent Grookey answers, so Natu's presence compounds the centralization issue users like Acehunter have raised about Grookey. Natu also severely hampers Ferroseed's ability to do anything other than click Knock Off and switch out, meaning that most teams opt to use Pawniard instead.

Lastly, I'll touch on usage. Natu's usage has been upticking noticeably in tournament play this year; it saw ~40% usage in the spring seasonal and is seeing ~60% usage in LCPL thus far. If this trend continues, we can expect Natu's impact on teambuilding to become only more pronounced and see more and more games ending in speed ties. This will greatly reduce the instances of the more skilled player winning a given game, which is why Natu should be looked at for tiering action.

And all of this goes without mentioning the Cosmic Power set, which is a completely different variety of total bullshit.

tl;dr Natu limits viable options in the teambuilder to a select set of mons, many of which share speed tiers, leading to an increasing number of games being decided by speed tie. This is an unhealthy influence on the meta and grounds for tiering action.

As I think many people know from my prior posts, I hard agree with this post. another benefit to a Natu ban, is that the odds of something becoming broken without Natu are considerably lower than they would be if we were to ban Mienfoo for example which is important because the generation is about to end. With the exception of ground types, Natu largely acts as a soft check to many offensive check, or a dedicated switch in to certain defensive pokes such as Koffing or Ferroseed. If Mienfoo were to go, The Tier's possible replacements in Timburr and Pancham do not have Regenerator and are considerably slower. Because of this, Natu could become broken in a more traditional way since it would be able to defensively check more things and it would be able to enter and pivot a lot more, and certain threats such as Grookey and Ponyta would be more easily able to overwhelm the foe's defenses.

If Natu were to go, the meta would have more Ferroseed, which could make certain pokemon such as agility Porygon have more favorable matchups, and Grookey would have its most effective counter that isn't a momentum sink, Larvesta, considerably harder to fit. However, I believe that the increased freedom of which fighting types and poison types you can fit would make building easier in spite of those concerns, and I believe that other concerns, such as about a possible uptick in scarf Mudbray, are overblown as you would still be able to use Grookey and balloon dig, and it would be less of a burden to use Ferroseed and Foongus, although since one lacks reliable recovery and the other is a knock magnet that doesn't completely solve the problem. Offenses would also still be effective against the builds Natu discouraged, as more ground types, Foongus, and Timburr wouldn't stop Grookey and Special offenses, although its a mixed bag for physical offenses. Overall, I am sure that banning Natu would free more builds than it would destroy, while a Mienfoo ban would just worsen our problems with Porygon (agility) offense and wouldn't stop the sturdy fight resist requirement thanks to Grookey and Timburr existing.


If my posts do not follow tiering policy, call me out and I will change it.

 

[Corporal Levi]

I don't think banning Natu is the best option here. Mienfoo has much more solid of an argument to be broken - perhaps not enough to be outright banned, if the poll is to be believed, but certainly more.

More importantly, banning Mienfoo would, in my view, be more effective at actually reducing 17 speed ties. The obvious reason for why this is the case is that it simply accounts for more of them. Fast Eviolite Mienfoo has noticeably more usage than Natu as a whole, by more than enough of a margin to account for the minor differences in likelihood of forcing ties.

Every top and high tier mon significantly warps the metagame, of course, Natu included. However, I think the claims that Natu unusually warps the metagame to increase speed ties beyond its own presence are exaggerated.

The most obvious example of how Natu centralizes teambuilding is in team's choice of Fighting-types. In previous generations/iterations of SS where threats like Gastly and Vullaby made Natu unviable, Timburr was a very viable alternative to Mienfoo with its greater natural bulk and access to Mach Punch. However, with Natu dominant, Timburr becomes hard to justify using at all, since it requires perfect prediction to get any damage off on Natu and is outsped and almost OHKOed in return. This effect is also noticeable with Mienfoo itself; slowfoo spreads have almost completely died out, only seeing usage as a borderline gimmick in the Mienfoo lead mirror, because the 17 speed set can actually threaten Natu by forcing a speed tie. (not to mention Scarf sets, which Natu completely invalidates.) This gravitation to 17 speed which Natu forces is in my opinion the ultimate cause of the speed tie-heavy endgames that are plaguing LC right now.

This feels largely misattributed. Timburr is still strong in BW LC - though having declined since earlier iterations - even though Natu is top tier. Timburr was also outright top tier in z-Wingull SM, Misdreavus BW, and Cutiefly SS, which were metagames with checks comparable to Natu. These were very different metagames, of course, but the point is that there is no reason to believe that a single check would hamper Timburr's viability significantly. (Slow Mienfoo was fantastic in all of the prior metagames it was available in too.) Timburr could still become a bit stronger with Natu banned, but a far greater reason for its decline is simply that its strengths are no longer sufficiently valuable. Timburr's primary identity over Mienfoo in previous metagames was as a breaker, but with Koffing preventing it from breaking effectively now, Mienfoo's pivoting capabilities are consistently preferred. (With that being said, I don't consider this a pro-Koffing ban argument because we would just be shifting Poison diversity into Fighting diversity.)

Of course, forcing universal usage of 17 Speed Mienfoo isn't the only effect Natu has had on teambuilding. Natu's presence has rendered Foongus almost completely irrelevant, as it can brainlessly switch in only fearing a Sludge Bomb poison. This reduces the pool of viable Fighting resists to 2 (3 if you count Larvesta), which again leads to mirrors and speed ties. Koffing and Mareanie are also inconsistent Grookey answers, so Natu's presence compounds the centralization issue users like Acehunter have raised about Grookey. Natu also severely hampers Ferroseed's ability to do anything other than click Knock Off and switch out, meaning that most teams opt to use Pawniard instead.

Any benefits to Foongus from Natu's ban would be largely mitigated by the other major trend you presented: Ferroseed is even more capable of shutting Foongus down and is likely to drastically increase in viability. (If you're trying to compare Ferroseed now to Ferroseed during Vullaby, don't forget that metagame had both Vullaby and Scraggy.) Ferroseed being better able to outcompete Pawniard is true but I don't think this is particularly notable; an A+ mon like Natu forcing moderate-scale trends is fairly typical. In any case, I wouldn't consider adjusting Steel-type usage to be an increase in diversity, given that Ferroseed is already totally usable, and this also has no bearing on speed ties.

another benefit to a Natu ban, is that the odds of something becoming broken without Natu are considerably lower than they would be if we were to ban Mienfoo for example which is important because the generation is about to end. With the exception of ground types, Natu largely acts as a soft check to many offensive check, or a dedicated switch in to certain defensive pokes such as Koffing or Ferroseed. If Mienfoo were to go, The Tier's possible replacements in Timburr and Pancham do not have Regenerator and are considerably slower. Because of this, Natu could become broken in a more traditional way since it would be able to defensively check more things and it would be able to enter and pivot a lot more, and certain threats such as Grookey and Ponyta would be more easily able to overwhelm the foe's defenses.

I'm not at all confident in this and would even consider the opposite to be likely. Other Fighting-types like Timburr are naturally very strong mons , but they lack usage because they directly compete with Mienfoo. Banning Mienfoo would not remove the Fighting-type niche, only reduce it. On the other hand, the next best Flying-type if Natu were banned would perhaps be Rowlet or Wingull, which are much more difficult to independently justify. Having such weak options as our best Flying-types would be totally unexplored territory, whatever that may entail. It's also unlikely that mons checked by Mienfoo would become broken; we actually had a non-Mienfoo metagame in pre-DLC that at various stages was even more unfriendly to Timburr, with Cutiefly and strong birds like Drifloon, Rufflet, and Vullaby, and yet at no point did, say, Ponyta or Steel-types become overbearing. These were admittedly metagames without modern Grookey sets, but Mienfoo is just as much a Grookey support as it is a Grookey check.

I support suspecting any of the top 17 Speed mons, if the consensus is genuinely that something should be banned to address speed ties, but would support Natu the least of the three.

 

[Acehunter1]

Bringing up Natu as a potential suspect target is interesting. I agree with BeardedDrakon that it would probably be the target out of the 3 (Mienfoo, Grookey and Natu) that seems to somewhat solve the speed tie issues while being the least likely to cause a big meta shift near the end of the generation. However, while I agree with the end conclusion, I don't get the reasoning behind it. I think Grookey has a much better case of deserving a suspect test than Natu with the same arguments that have been presented arguing for a Natu suspect.

Traditionally, throughout the last two years or so, some of the main arguments against banning Grookey have been that 1) Grookey is not broken and we don't suspect non-broken mons, and that 2) we don't conduct suspects based on what we theorize the next meta to be, because we're not supposed to and it's impossible anyway. There has also been the argument that Grookey is not actually causing the centralization, but I've covered that in my previous post here, and I think that now, most people have realized it, as so many suspect candidates have been discussed to solve this exact issue.
The problem that I have with the reasoning behind the Natu suspect is that it uses the same arguments that have been dismissed for Grookey for a very long time now. The reasoning explicitly states that Natu is not broken, and a whole lot of theorizing what a meta without Natu would look like follows. For the record, I'm not against this approach, but I just think that by this approach, Grookey deserves to be suspected a lot more.

The most obvious example of how Natu centralizes teambuilding

tl;dr Natu limits viable options in the teambuilder to a select set of mons

The argumented ways in which Natu centralizes teambuilding is kinda laughable compared to what Grookey does. Natu's centralizing effect seems to be basically presented as forcing all Pokemon to be 17 speed, and severely limiting Timburr, Foongus, and Ferroseed. While the way Natu limits these Pokemon are well explained, this sounds to me like a kind of biased way to determine centralization. Why would Natu be banworthy for forcing more Pokemon to hit 17 speed and for limiting 3 Pokemon, while Grookey beside it warps the metagame into bulky offense and severely limits so many more Pokemon in the tier? The 3 Pokemon that Natu limit have been staple good Pokemon for a long time throughout several generations, and see good usage despite Natu's existence. A Natu ban might make these 3 Pokemon see more usage, but why would these 3 specifically deserve it more than any of the many Pokemon that Grookey invalidates?
Furthermore, it has also not been mentioned how a Natu ban would help decentralize the meta from the default bulky offense archetype. Because it's the same type of teams facing each other all the time, often with the same Pokemon, of course speed ties are more likely to happen. If we are looking to decentralize the meta, and not only specific Pokemon but also in terms of team archetypes, banning Grookey would be our best bet, for the reasons I have stated in my previous post about it.

I'm glad that we have stopped sticking to the "only ban broken mons" and "no theorizing about non-existant metas" arguments. However, if Natu's centralizing effect is unhealthy and is grounds for tiering action, Grookey's ban should be long overdue by now, because it is way, way more centralizing.

Anyway, I do understand that we're nearing the end of the generation, and a Grookey ban would probably considerably shake up the metagame. Personally, I think it would be worth it, but I can understand a Natu suspect based on, and only based on not causing as big of a meta shift than a Mienfoo or Grookey suspect. I'm in favor of suspecting any of the 3, but Grookey is definitely my option #1.

 

[Colin]

I don't think banning Natu is the best option here. Mienfoo has much more solid of an argument to be broken - perhaps not enough to be outright banned, if the poll is to be believed, but certainly more.

More importantly, banning Mienfoo would, in my view, be more effective at actually reducing 17 speed ties. The obvious reason for why this is the case is that it simply accounts for more of them. Fast Eviolite Mienfoo has noticeably more usage than Natu as a whole, by more than enough of a margin to account for the minor differences in likelihood of forcing ties.

Every top and high tier mon significantly warps the metagame, of course, Natu included. However, I think the claims that Natu unusually warps the metagame to increase speed ties beyond its own presence are exaggerated.



This feels largely misattributed. Timburr is still strong in BW LC - though having declined since earlier iterations - even though Natu is top tier. Timburr was also outright top tier in z-Wingull SM, Misdreavus BW, and Cutiefly SS, which were metagames with checks comparable to Natu. These were very different metagames, of course, but the point is that there is no reason to believe that a single check would hamper Timburr's viability significantly. (Slow Mienfoo was fantastic in all of the prior metagames it was available in too.) Timburr could still become a bit stronger with Natu banned, but a far greater reason for its decline is simply that its strengths are no longer sufficiently valuable. Timburr's primary identity over Mienfoo in previous metagames was as a breaker, but with Koffing preventing it from breaking effectively now, Mienfoo's pivoting capabilities are consistently preferred. (With that being said, I don't consider this a pro-Koffing ban argument because we would just be shifting Poison diversity into Fighting diversity.)



Any benefits to Foongus from Natu's ban would be largely mitigated by the other major trend you presented: Ferroseed is even more capable of shutting Foongus down and is likely to drastically increase in viability. (If you're trying to compare Ferroseed now to Ferroseed during Vullaby, don't forget that metagame had both Vullaby and Scraggy.) Ferroseed being better able to outcompete Pawniard is true but I don't think this is particularly notable; an A+ mon like Natu forcing moderate-scale trends is fairly typical. In any case, I wouldn't consider adjusting Steel-type usage to be an increase in diversity, given that Ferroseed is already totally usable, and this also has no bearing on speed ties.



I'm not at all confident in this and would even consider the opposite to be likely. Other Fighting-types like Timburr are naturally very strong mons , but they lack usage because they directly compete with Mienfoo. Banning Mienfoo would not remove the Fighting-type niche, only reduce it. On the other hand, the next best Flying-type if Natu were banned would perhaps be Rowlet or Wingull, which are much more difficult to independently justify. Having such weak options as our best Flying-types would be totally unexplored territory, whatever that may entail. It's also unlikely that mons checked by Mienfoo would become broken; we actually had a non-Mienfoo metagame in pre-DLC that at various stages was even more unfriendly to Timburr, with Cutiefly and strong birds like Drifloon, Rufflet, and Vullaby, and yet at no point did, say, Ponyta or Steel-types become overbearing. These were admittedly metagames without modern Grookey sets, but Mienfoo is just as much a Grookey support as it is a Grookey check.

I support suspecting any of the top 17 Speed mons, if the consensus is genuinely that something should be banned to address speed ties, but would support Natu the least of the three.

Many of the points you make are good; however, a few of them are flawed. To start with, I feel your comparisons with BW and SS are flawed; knock off is purely utility, and if one was to make progress vs Natu timburr would be more likely to succeed since it can run payback or elemental punches. I am not well versed in SM, but wingull is a 19 speed pokemon which means that apart from scarf foo no fighter can compete in a 1v1. With the same lack of knowledge, the same could also be said about the cutiefly meta, only this time it pivoted into fighters and would likely gain momentum if they didn't have a pony. I also don't see koffing as severely crippling as you suggest about it; it still lacks reliable recovery and can be hit by knock, and its better natural bulk isn't crippled by neut gas like; it certainly isn't as bad a matchup as spritzee was in SM seems to have been. U turn and regen would still be prefered, but it would not be a throw to use tim on BO where natu just comes in and takes momentum as a fight check.

Your point about Foongus is a lot more solid than about Timburr, but Ferroseed is significantly easier to double around than Natu is, thanks to it being slower and not pivoting. if you get the likely low risk 50 50 then you have Mienfoo out vs Ferroseed. Your opponent blocking spore with Ferroseed gets them a hazard, knock, or paralysis which is still great progress, but threatening KO's and getting a U-turn is significantly better short term provided foo knock doesn't change any ranges (as in p much never lol). I also want you to consider that Foongus was top tier during the Vullaby meta thanks to its good mu into ground types in spite of ferroseed existing. while since foon is a knock magnet this isn't at all secure, its a much better niche than it is now, and doesn't just lose huge momentum every time you want to use that niche.

Your counterpoint against my point is solid as we wouldn't have any good birds, and that timmy would be a decent replacement. However, lacking regen and a tool to regain momentum is a big downside as if you get the play wrong on a Ponyta for example, you could regen the damage off by sacking and checking it normally. Since Timmy often wants to click and trade knock offs, it gets worn down a lot faster than Mienfoo. I also feel a metagame with broken birds and Vullaby to check things in a pinch is a bad comparison to current SS.

Bringing up Natu as a potential suspect target is interesting. I agree with BeardedDrakon that it would probably be the target out of the 3 (Mienfoo, Grookey and Natu) that seems to somewhat solve the speed tie issues while being the least likely to cause a big meta shift near the end of the generation. However, while I agree with the end conclusion, I don't get the reasoning behind it. I think Grookey has a much better case of deserving a suspect test than Natu with the same arguments that have been presented arguing for a Natu suspect.

Traditionally, throughout the last two years or so, some of the main arguments against banning Grookey have been that 1) Grookey is not broken and we don't suspect non-broken mons, and that 2) we don't conduct suspects based on what we theorize the next meta to be, because we're not supposed to and it's impossible anyway. There has also been the argument that Grookey is not actually causing the centralization, but I've covered that in my previous post here, and I think that now, most people have realized it, as so many suspect candidates have been discussed to solve this exact issue.
The problem that I have with the reasoning behind the Natu suspect is that it uses the same arguments that have been dismissed for Grookey for a very long time now. The reasoning explicitly states that Natu is not broken, and a whole lot of theorizing what a meta without Natu would look like follows. For the record, I'm not against this approach, but I just think that by this approach, Grookey deserves to be suspected a lot more.



The argumented ways in which Natu centralizes teambuilding is kinda laughable compared to what Grookey does. Natu's centralizing effect seems to be basically presented as forcing all Pokemon to be 17 speed, and severely limiting Timburr, Foongus, and Ferroseed. While the way Natu limits these Pokemon are well explained, this sounds to me like a kind of biased way to determine centralization. Why would Natu be banworthy for forcing more Pokemon to hit 17 speed and for limiting 3 Pokemon, while Grookey beside it warps the metagame into bulky offense and severely limits so many more Pokemon in the tier? The 3 Pokemon that Natu limit have been staple good Pokemon for a long time throughout several generations, and see good usage despite Natu's existence. A Natu ban might make these 3 Pokemon see more usage, but why would these 3 specifically deserve it more than any of the many Pokemon that Grookey invalidates?
Furthermore, it has also not been mentioned how a Natu ban would help decentralize the meta from the default bulky offense archetype. Because it's the same type of teams facing each other all the time, often with the same Pokemon, of course speed ties are more likely to happen. If we are looking to decentralize the meta, and not only specific Pokemon but also in terms of team archetypes, banning Grookey would be our best bet, for the reasons I have stated in my previous post about it.

I'm glad that we have stopped sticking to the "only ban broken mons" and "no theorizing about non-existant metas" arguments. However, if Natu's centralizing effect is unhealthy and is grounds for tiering action, Grookey's ban should be long overdue by now, because it is way, way more centralizing.

Anyway, I do understand that we're nearing the end of the generation, and a Grookey ban would probably considerably shake up the metagame. Personally, I think it would be worth it, but I can understand a Natu suspect based on, and only based on not causing as big of a meta shift than a Mienfoo or Grookey suspect. I'm in favor of suspecting any of the 3, but Grookey is definitely my option #1.

I agree with this statement but I feel like a Grookey ban doesn't solve the speed tie problem enough, and should instead be targeted after the foo + poison + steel + offensive foo check meta becomes either less 50 50 riddled or given up on as a format. I would rather have more limited team archetype viability in my game than more variety, but more MU fish or 50 50 endgame where the better player lacks as much an advantage.

 

[ninjadog]

I don't really agree with suspecting any of the 17 speeders, none of them are broken or uncompetitive, at this point it's just randomly suspecting stuff to hope for a better metagame because people don't like the current one, which seems dumb to me to vote on an unknown meta hopefully being better especially when we had Vull meta as a known alternative that would fix these problems and people still said no to that.

Natu isn't broken or restricting, the standard set is good but is complete set up bait for stuff like Tyrunt and Magby and hard walled by stuff like defensive Pory which balances it out, the LO set is cool and adds some interesting options, CM sucks rn and the cosmic power set is complete cringe but just a worse Shellos. To say Natu is single handedly restricting mons like Ferro, Foongus or Timburr is ridiculous. Sure Natu makes Foongus worse by being immune to spore but it's not a great switch-in considering if you get Sludge poisoned you're forced to roost and don't OHKO back with Psychic, Foongus becoming unviable is also a combination of other things like Koffing which blocks regen being on most teams, Ferro which hard walls still being pretty common, a lack of Onix/Mudbray/Trapinch which it beat in contrast to other poison types, or the rise in Grookey meaning you often can't fit 2 grass types onto the one team. Ferro is still used a ton despite the fact Natu walls it and block hazards, whilst Timburr suffers from the fact Mienfoo is so good more than the presence of Natu. There's also been adaptions to Natu, such as Drilbur emerging recently which can rock up on Natu and also beats it with Rock Slide/Tomb, and of course Tyrunt which can massively take advantage of it.

Grookey is easily more restricting but I kinda think this is a good thing, it limits a lot of random setup stuff like shell smashers but I think it's kinda nice to have a blanket check to setup mons given how overbearing they can be in LC, nor do I think it would be a good idea to drastically increase the viability of all of them with so little time remaining in the gen. Though I understand why people might want and if one of the 3 has to be suspected fsr then definitely do Grookey.

Mienfoo suspect yeah just definitely not.

If I was suspecting anything it would be Shellos (could probably just be QBed) or Light Clay/Magby. Shellos needs to go, contributes absolutely nothing positive to the meta, is a complete mu fish where against some teams (LO Grook, Frill) it automatically sucks and will do nothing, in others its a completely unskilled luck fish where it'll come down to whether you get crit/para'd or not. Just get rid of it, it's uncompetitive and the only impact it has is a negative one. Cosmic Power Natu also sucks for the same reasons but i don't know if just banning Cosmic Power is a good idea.

Much like Zig before it, Magby in combination with screens can be pretty overbearing simply because of how many mons that you often need or want to run (Foo, Pawn, Koff, Natu etc) are setup bait for it with screens up, and once it sets up you're often relying on a speed tie to beat it. I'd probably suspect Magby over Light Clay cause I think other screens teams are fine.

 

[Colin]

I don't really agree with suspecting any of the 17 speeders, none of them are broken or uncompetitive, at this point it's just randomly suspecting stuff to hope for a better metagame because people don't like the current one, which seems dumb to me to vote on an unknown meta hopefully being better especially when we had Vull meta as a known alternative that would fix these problems and people still said no to that.

Natu isn't broken or restricting, the standard set is good but is complete set up bait for stuff like Tyrunt and Magby and hard walled by stuff like defensive Pory which balances it out, the LO set is cool and adds some interesting options, CM sucks rn and the cosmic power set is complete cringe but just a worse Shellos. To say Natu is single handedly restricting mons like Ferro, Foongus or Timburr is ridiculous. Sure Natu makes Foongus worse by being immune to spore but it's not a great switch-in considering if you get Sludge poisoned you're forced to roost and don't OHKO back with Psychic, Foongus becoming unviable is also a combination of other things like Koffing which blocks regen being on most teams, Ferro which hard walls still being pretty common, a lack of Onix/Mudbray/Trapinch which it beat in contrast to other poison types, or the rise in Grookey meaning you often can't fit 2 grass types onto the one team. Ferro is still used a ton despite the fact Natu walls it and block hazards, whilst Timburr suffers from the fact Mienfoo is so good more than the presence of Natu. There's also been adaptions to Natu, such as Drilbur emerging recently which can rock up on Natu and also beats it with Rock Slide/Tomb, and of course Tyrunt which can massively take advantage of it.

Grookey is easily more restricting but I kinda think this is a good thing, it limits a lot of random setup stuff like shell smashers but I think it's kinda nice to have a blanket check to setup mons given how overbearing they can be in LC, nor do I think it would be a good idea to drastically increase the viability of all of them with so little time remaining in the gen. Though I understand why people might want and if one of the 3 has to be suspected fsr then definitely do Grookey.

Mienfoo suspect yeah just definitely not.

If I was suspecting anything it would be Shellos (could probably just be QBed) or Light Clay/Magby. Shellos needs to go, contributes absolutely nothing positive to the meta, is a complete mu fish where against some teams (LO Grook, Frill) it automatically sucks and will do nothing, in others its a completely unskilled luck fish where it'll come down to whether you get crit/para'd or not. Just get rid of it, it's uncompetitive and the only impact it has is a negative one. Cosmic Power Natu also sucks for the same reasons but i don't know if just banning Cosmic Power is a good idea.

Much like Zig before it, Magby in combination with screens can be pretty overbearing simply because of how many mons that you often need or want to run (Foo, Pawn, Koff, Natu etc) are setup bait for it with screens up, and once it sets up you're often relying on a speed tie to beat it. I'd probably suspect Magby over Light Clay cause I think other screens teams are fine.

While Natu may not be broken or uncompetitive, I did not advocate for a Natu suspect randomly. The issue is that for bulky offense the 17 speed wars are too important for endgames. in order to solve that you have to reduce their prevalence, and grookey going alone will help some but not get the job done. To me, although the builder is problematic as well, I advocate for this suspect because of the effect that Natu has on endgames. I don't see another solution then banning one of the 3, and Natu is my first choice. On the builder, the fight slot is limited to max speed Mienfoo; the poison type slot has to make progress in spite of Natu, which Koffing can do thanks to neut gas blocking regen and it threatening sludge poisons and t bolt, and mare, which can threaten knock and sludge poisons. If you fail to make progress against Natu, you give up momentum since Natu pivots. In the Vullaby meta, There was no Natu and therefore Foongus and Timburr's niches were usable without folding to that type of offense, although Foo still ran max speed to my knowledge. When I ask to myself what changed for Timburr and Foongus post vull, I see that they have to deal with Natu invalidating their diminished niches as a breaker with good prio and a ground checking poison respectively. I think since Natu forces speed ties in most endgames, Grookey offense in particular, and punishes foes who cannot make progress vs it to such a degree it is unhealthy, even if not broken or uncompetitive in a vacuum.

 

[Éric]

with Natu dominant, Timburr becomes hard to justify using at all, since it requires perfect prediction to get any damage off on Natu and is outsped and almost OHKOed in return. This effect is also noticeable with Mienfoo itself; slowfoo spreads have almost completely died out, only seeing usage as a borderline gimmick in the Mienfoo lead mirror, because the 17 speed set can actually threaten Natu by forcing a speed tie. (not to mention Scarf sets, which Natu completely invalidates.)

This is all not natus fault. The trends of timburr being bad and mienfoo running 17 speed all started long ago, when natu wasnt being used (by people that werent daunt).
With the vullaby ban, foongus started declining in usage because of ferroseeds presence, and mienfoo + koffing being a really common core that just beats it. With this, and scraggy leaving the tier, timburr lost a lot of reasons to be used: mach punch wasnt as necessary anymore without the darks, and ice punch wasnt hitting foongus bc theres no foongus. Now timburr was just a fighter that lost to both poisons koffing and mareanie.
In parallel, mienfoo running 17 speed actually goes back to when vullaby was in the tier. It used to run 17 bc koffing ran 14, and being slower than it meant it couldnt uturn on it. Also being faster than +0 vull, pawniard, agility porygon and tying grookey went a long way, so it always ran 17 speed.
im not denying that natu helps with these causes now, but it was never the cause of them nor is the primary factor rn.
and ftr, if we wanna ban a mon that isnt broken bc it centralizes the tier, it makes no sense to ban natu over mienfoo, this being said by someone who doesnt support amienfoo ban

 

[Eeveeto]

My (not asked and unpopular )opinions.

Natu: During the late LC Open, I was worried too about speedties. The way I "solved" (brackets being there due to the fact I lost in quarters, so take this strat with a pinch of salt) this problem was by not giving Mienfoo 17 Speed. Natu has no reason not to go Max Speed, and neither has Grookey (or the rare Onix/Vulpix/Drilbur. Mienfoo, however, can afford it and I often preferred doing it. There are 2 directions in which Mienfoo doesn't get 17 Speed. First is going faster, with a Scarf. This allows Mienfoo to check offensive threats even when boosted (like Tyrunt). It can still get Knocked and if that happens, it will function like standard Mienfoo (which often gets Knocked too). The other way is going slower. By doing it, you always know that you will lose the Speedtie, but this also means you can play accordingly. The main benefits is that Mienfoo now is bulkier, so it can tank better thinks like Porygon (if Sdef) or Carvanha (if PDef). As additional benefit, you gain a slow pivot that allows to come safely in some frailer but fast Mon, such as Abra, Ponyta or Diglett. With 17 Speed Mienfoo you sometimes don't want to win Speedtie vs opposing Mienfoo/Grookey/Natu, especially when both are using U-Turn. Slow Mienfoo doesn't have this particular problem. Both Scarf and slow Mienfoos definitely change the way you should be building and playing, and you won't always get advantages of it, but if the main argument for banning Natu is 17 Speedties, this is a way of reducing them.
Besides that, Natu not only is not broken/unhealthy, but adds positive things to the meta. Is one of the few Mins that can OHKO (standart) Mienfoo from full and also checks Grookey and Koffing among others. Main positive thing though is Magic Bounce, brainless clicking Rocks is not as easy as without Natu. I don't see making Ferroseed or Foonguss worse as a bad thing, Diglett restricts way more Mons and everyone seems fine with it.

Shellos: I don't agree with the notion that Shellos adds nothing to the meta. It's immune to Knock Off and ignores Scald, preventing brainless Spam of those moves is for sure something positive. Another positive (though many think otherwise) thing is punishing some standard team structures (Mienfoo + Koffing + water + ferro + Dig/Abra + filler). This for me is a very positive quality, as it forces people to think outside the box and not using the same 6 Mons with the same 4 moves again and again and again. But even with Standard Mons, there is a lot of counterplay if you change one Mon slot or even less, one move slot. I will list some of them (Standard Mons only, not Eeveetomons).

1. Toxic on literally anything that gets it. You can slap it on Ferro instead of TW, on Mienfoo instead of Fake Out or even on Pawniard as 4th move. There is opportunity cost for sure, but a moveslot is not as big one as a Mon slot. It's not an entirely useless move vs the rest of the meta, since it shuts down Mons like Larvesta or Frillish.
2. Frillish. Any ghost stops Shellos cold, though this is the most viable one. I consider Frillish one of the biggest threats in LC in the right hands.
3. Grookey. Again, one of the most common Mons and always wins.
4. Magnemite. Not as common, but good Mon that wins.
5. Mienfoo. Apart from Toxic it has Band Reckless, SD or Bulk Up as tools to break Shellos. It's still Mienfoo, it will always be good regardless of how you use it.
6. Natu. The infamous Cosmic Power should win 1vs1 most of the time.
7. Ferro. I considered Giga Drain trash even without taking Shellos into account. Bullet Seed is much better vs almost everything and gives lots of chances to crit vs Shellos. Oh, and it also has Curse, Leech Seed or Toxic as tools vs Shellos.
8. Abra. Counter and Encore as tools. Unreliable, but that's the definition of Abra: broken but unreliable.
9. Dwebble. Shell Smash kills Shellos before he can get enough boosts.
10. Mareanie. Haze. People have been experimenting with moves like Thief or Iron Defense in the last slot, well, this is another option that also works vs other sweepers.
11. Koffing. Clear Smog, Corrosive Gas, Thief or Haze work.
12. Pawniard. SD exists, it breaks Shellos and can sweep under the right circumstances.
13. Carvanha. Destiny Bond. Can't pretend this is a favorable trade, but it works if you really fear Shellos. Works vs shit like Ferro too.
14. Onix. Dragon Tail, Taunt, Roar, Screech, etc. you get lots of options here. Oh, and Toxic.
15. Diglett. Only mentioning this one due to the fact Shellos can't escape from Toxic even if he somehow sees it coming.

These are just standard Mons, B+ or above in VR. As I already said, Shellos exists solely to absorb Knock/Scald and to punish the people that can't build outside of the same boring cores (some of which are able to naturally counter the slug). If you think just a little ( often 1 move slot out of 24) outside the box, Shellos should give you 0 problems.

Won't talk about Light Clay or Magby, I don't think either of those should be touched but don't care enough to write about them.

Mienfoo, Arena Trap ( or just Diglett) and Abra, these are still the only things I can see actually banned.

 

[Bella]

Going to throw my hat into the ring to give my thoughts on Natu, the current metagame, and mienfoo, coming from the perspective of a fairly new community member/ little cup player.

I personally dont support a ban or a suspect on either Mienfoo or Natu.

Natu isn't broken or restricting, the standard set is good but is complete set up bait for stuff like Tyrunt and Magby and hard walled by stuff like defensive Pory which balances it out, the LO set is cool and adds some interesting options, CM sucks rn and the cosmic power set is complete cringe but just a worse Shellos. To say Natu is single handedly restricting mons like Ferro, Foongus or Timburr is ridiculous. Sure Natu makes Foongus worse by being immune to spore but it's not a great switch-in considering if you get Sludge poisoned you're forced to roost and don't OHKO back with Psychic, Foongus becoming unviable is also a combination of other things like Koffing which blocks regen being on most teams, Ferro which hard walls still being pretty common, a lack of Onix/Mudbray/Trapinch which it beat in contrast to other poison types, or the rise in Grookey meaning you often can't fit 2 grass types onto the one team. Ferro is still used a ton despite the fact Natu walls it and block hazards, whilst Timburr suffers from the fact Mienfoo is so good more than the presence of Natu. There's also been adaptions to Natu, such as Drilbur emerging recently which can rock up on Natu and also beats it with Rock Slide/Tomb, and of course Tyrunt which can massively take advantage of it.

I agree with this entire part. Natu isnt broken in the slightest. Yes the 17 Speed problem is compounded by it, but i think people are throwing in "Ban Mienfoo!" or "Ban Natu!" or "Resuspect QT / Gast / Whatever the fuck!" just because people hate the current metagame. I personally think this is the best meta we've seen in this gen, and i dont think it would be good for the meta if we had a sudden shift in it with a mienfoo or natu ban, especially with SV coming in less than half a year. i get the idea of banning the three 17 speed mons (Grook, Foo, Natu) but none are arguably broken, just sorta annoying to face, which is normal in Tiers. Also, i think people need to realize that some games are determined by luck, and avoiding those situations with luck is part of playing the match well, and thats hard with the speed ties currently, but one lost tie doesn't normally lose you the game. (of course, situations like that happen, but its few and far between).


I would like to propose a suspect over Natu or Foo.

Light Clay
I gotta be honest, this thing sucks. it enables Magby so easily, which is a massive cheese poke in the first place and wouldnt be broken if it wasnt under screens imo. Its just one of the worst playstyles for most normal teams to face off against. Yes there is counterplay, but if you dont have that counterplay your most likely getting 6-0d by Magby and Tyrunt and Shellder and friends. and no, Psychic Fangs carv isnt a counterplay if Magby just kills you after.


TDLR: no ban on 17 speed and ban Light clay

 

[Drifting]

What the fuck are you guys talking about? I mean honestly I feel like I'm in La La Land reading through this discussion.



I find it hilarious that the people who want to ban Natu are using the exact same arguments of over-centralization as the people who want to ban Mienfoo, but not seeing the dissonance inherent in that (not to say that banning Mienfoo is necessarily the right choice either).

Natu obviously isn't broken, none of the reasons to ban it make any sense as Corporal Levi pointed out in his post.



Ace... brother... You gotta stop...



Why would this mon be banned when it sucks. It has two wins in five weeks of LCPL. I don't really think I've ever seen anyone lose to this mon when they didn't

A. Bring a bad team
B. Let it set up for free

The main argument seems to be that Shellos provides literally no positive value to the tier but that obviously isn't true
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1614332413

In this LCPL match, you can see Shellos provide value as a defensive pivot throughout the match before eventually fulfilling its role as a defensive win-condition. It is clearly providing positive value for Gray here beyond basic cringe Shellos shit.

Like yeah, the mon is annoying and can cause RNG moments but that doesn't mean it should be banned, especially when banning it would fix none of the problems the meta has. I'd also like to reiterate that this mon fucking sucks. Just bring Frillish if you're really that scared of a B-rank mon.



If you lose to this there's a 99% chance you deserved it (The 1% is if you're fighting the Magby-Larv Poisoned Pawniard Godsquad piloted by the Consigliere of Little Cup DOOR MONEY).



This one actually blows my mind. Screens as a strategy is:

• Very niche
• Not really that good
• Has obvious counterplay
• Unlike something like Shellos, is not RNG based at all.

If you're regularly losing to screens it is legit a "you" problem. Another example of people trying to ban a noob-killer strategy because it's annoying. This whole "great cheese ban" meme relies entirely on the notion that every team should be some variant of BO, which is obviously antithetical to any kind of fun or diverse metagame. This suspicion is basically confirmed by stuff like this:

Maybe? I think these are fine:



spikes are sorta cheesy, but overall has a lot more back and forth and interactivity (aka actual gameplay)



I think sun Is easily the worst cheese and if the rest were banned it wouldnt be too hard to handle for most teams. Still sun is basically a mini game as well.

I mean seriously, you're saying Spikes might be problematic? Get real. Also, how is the munchlax guy of all people complaining about Sun??? Banning Cosmic Power??? What???

***

Honestly I think this meta is overhated and I think if nothing else happened it would ultimately be fine. If you did want to improve it though, as I've said in the past the only two viable paths are an Arena Trap ban or a Mienfoo ban. Any of the weird-ass bans suggested recently in this thread would only make the tier worse by lowering diversity while not fixing any real problems as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Colin]

What the fuck are you guys talking about? I mean honestly I feel like I'm in La La Land reading through this discussion.



I find it hilarious that the people who want to ban Natu are using the exact same arguments of over-centralization as the people who want to ban Mienfoo, but not seeing the dissonance inherent in that (not to say that banning Mienfoo is necessarily the right choice either).

Natu obviously isn't broken, none of the reasons to ban it make any sense as Corporal Levi pointed out in his post.



Ace... brother... You gotta stop...



Why would this mon be banned when it sucks. It has two wins in five weeks of LCPL. I don't really think I've ever seen anyone lose to this mon when they didn't

A. Bring a bad team
B. Let it set up for free

The main argument seems to be that Shellos provides literally no positive value to the tier but that obviously isn't true
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1614332413

In this LCPL match, you can see Shellos provide value as a defensive pivot throughout the match before eventually fulfilling its role as a defensive win-condition. It is clearly providing positive value for Gray here beyond basic cringe Shellos shit.

Like yeah, the mon is annoying and can cause RNG moments but that doesn't mean it should be banned, especially when banning it would fix none of the problems the meta has. I'd also like to reiterate that this mon fucking sucks. Just bring Frillish if you're really that scared of a B-rank mon.



If you lose to this there's a 99% chance you deserved it (The 1% is if you're fighting the Magby-Larv Poisoned Pawniard Godsquad piloted by the Consigliere of Little Cup DOOR MONEY).



This one actually blows my mind. Screens as a strategy is:

• Very niche
• Not really that good
• Has obvious counterplay
• Unlike something like Shellos, is not RNG based at all.

If you're regularly losing to screens it is legit a "you" problem. Another example of people trying to ban a noob-killer strategy because it's annoying. This whole "great cheese ban" meme relies entirely on the notion that every team should be some variant of BO, which is obviously antithetical to any kind of fun or diverse metagame. This suspicion is basically confirmed by stuff like this:





I mean seriously, you're saying Spikes might be problematic? Get real. Also, how is the munchlax guy of all people complaining about Sun??? Banning Cosmic Power??? What???

***

Honestly I think this meta is overhated and I think if nothing else happened it would ultimately be fine. If you did want to improve it though, as I've said in the past the only two viable paths are an Arena Trap ban or a Mienfoo ban. Any of the weird-ass bans suggested recently in this thread would only make the tier worse by lowering diversity while not fixing any real problems as far as I'm concerned.

I feel the need to reply to you calling me an idiot for my opinions; I feel like long term a Mienfoo ban would probably be more helpful as Levi suggested, but the meta is about to die in 4 months and I am therefore biased to take the more conservative option that I don't think would damage most defensive cores while adding options. Levi's post about foo ties accounting for more in the game is true and I overlooked that, I admit it. I just think the meta would be in a worse state when SV is than it is now if Foo left in a month. I would prob vote ban Mienfoo but I would prefer Natu suspected.

 

[LilyAC]

1. natu is definitely not broken
2. natu is not overcentralising
3. we should ban it anyway

I'm glad gali has kicked off the Natu discussion because it's my personal suspect of choice rn, but I think we got off on the wrong foot. It's impossible to pin the downfall of stuff like Foongus and Slowfoo on Natu (as Eric has said already in his post). Overcentralisation isn't an argument that should be used to ban Natu.

The logic behind banning Natu is much more simple.
Usually when there's a problem with a metagame it's because something is broken, and so we remove the thing that is broken. But in this unusual case, we don't have anything that's broken. Instead, the problem is speed ties, and so we should remove something that's causing the speed ties.

That leaves 3 options: Mienfoo, Grookey and Natu.

-Grookey is the clear worst option, because it's responsible for the smallest portion of speed ties, and will cause a dramatic meta change.
-Mienfoo is a valid option. It's responsible for the most speed ties. But it will still probably cause a dramatic change.
-Natu is a midground. It's responsible for a large portion of speed ties, and causes the least dramatic change.

We don't have much time left in the gen, so it's preferable for us to ban something that causes the least change. That's why I personally choose Natu. Natu vs Foo/Grookey ties are really common and removing them will have a pretty significant benefit without having to completely shift the metagame like Foo probably would.

Foo is a riskier option with the potential to remove more ties. Not a bad choice but I'd rather take the safer path. I also believe that mons which can be used in many different ways throughout the match help increase the players' options and therefore the skill ceiling, and although this is just a theory, it's another thing that deters me from banning Foo. I might support a Foo suspect if that's what people prefer, but please consider Natu as well.

 

[reggg]

I think both sides of the argument to test Natu are compelling. On one hand, there is nothing inherently broken or uncompetitive about Natu. It is not overpowering and it has a variety of checks and counterplay. This makes it difficult for me fully get behind a Natu test. Ninjadog makes good points on Natu not really being restricting on the builder, and CorporalLevi layed it out pretty well on why if we were to ban something, Mienfoo has a better case than Natu.

On the other hand, I do see where others are coming from. The centralization around the three 17 speed tier pokemon are obviously a problem as we see everyone's concerns about it. While I don't think any of them are broken (Grookey is cutting it close though), Natu has a case to be made that banning it would cause the least amount of change and largely solve the speed tie issue, as per LilyAC.

It still feels hard to support a suspect on something everyone pretty much agrees is not broken at all, but I can at least understand the argument and concerns being brought up by everyone in the thread.

 

[PigWarrior19]

Pardon the structure I’m writing this on my phone Honestly feels like y’all want to ban random stuff that’s annoying in hopes of making the meta better because Natu is 100% not broken cosmic power is annoying but manageable same goes for shellos it’s annoying but manageable

Foo is healthy for the meta it’s bulky enough to handle carv not strong enough to overbearing and can be 100% walled by things like koffing and threatened by offensive checks like abra

I’m not open to a grook suspect grook is a monster that can shred threw teams with grassy glide lo wood hammer but is still walled by stuff like koffing a larv (even sd acro) sure these walls might be over loaded with the help of foo but grook also gets trapped by pinch and spa digglet and if grook were gone which mons would suffer stuff weak to ground type attacks Kantonian ponyta, tyrunt, koff as well as teams that need an offensive check for strong&bulky waters

Sun is absolutely not ban worthy it gets walled by so many things tyrunt fril bulky star munch flash fire pony flash fire rolycoly hell even heat proof rolycoly anything that can take a fire type move the whole strategy is fire power overload with dig and pony to help with opposing pony’s timburr to keep rocks off the field charm to shred threw teams with solar power boosted fire type attacks vulp as a setter then an eject button mon these teams get pressured so easily by munch and the other walls

 

[DuGuo]

I haven't played LC for a long time. I'm very tired, whether in real life or in games. Nevertheless, I am still very concerned about the development of lc meta. Maybe quit Pokemon in a month, and let's meet again in Gen9 :D. This may be my last article before I quit Pokemon? So let me write more, lol.

Personally, I entered LC in July 2021. Vullaby ban has just been implemented, thanks Shou Dui and hybone, You two let me officially enter this extremely important tier for me. I have experienced Scraggy and Web being ban. At that time, meta had not been fully developed. This memory is very good for me. During this time, I won the second place in PS China's LC open. To a certain extent, it also helped me enter Team China of lcwc. During last year's lcwc period, zigzagoon was sus and finally ban. It's a pity that I didn't attend this sus at that time. With great luck, I got 2-2 in lcwc, Thank everyone of the Team Canada and the Team China ! After that, I participated in the top draft team tour of PS China as LC player and played against Acehunter. During this time, I reached the first place of LC ladder for the first time! Although it's not difficult, it still gives me a lot of motivation. I participated in LPL and lcpl this year. Unfortunately, I played badly. Thank all my teammates anyway! By the way, I even reached the semi-finals in double LC Swiss. During this period of time, I have posted many views on meta here, and personally experienced Vullaby's sus. At the same time, I realize that meta needs to be changed - we have keeped this meta for a long time. Based on the particularity of LC, everyone has many different views. Yes, it's good, but it's really difficult to implement lol.

Wow, I didn't notice that my private word actually occupied so many chapters. Here are some of my views on Meta. This is my first post about meta here, I'm really happy that this has attracted many people's replies. In this, I mentioned the impact of Vullaby, Natu, Mienfoo, Carvahan, and Grookey on meta, Most of them are the focus of our discussion now! Soon, under everyone's heated discussion, vullaby sus arrived. After experiencing the vullaby LC meta, I published this short post. In my eyes, vullaby LC meta may not be bad, but it is definitely not good. Then I saw the discussion about cutiefly and quiver dance. I don't know if I can say that lol, But I think it might be good.I don't know why it's still hard for me to get to the point lol. Let me get to the point now!

Mienfoo: Mon, which I like very much, is almost a symbol of LC in my eyes. Its 17spe affects the entire LC meta, many things have been launched around mienfoo. The one that influenced me most was inner focus shed shell Abra. I think it happened at lcwc in 2021, and I was really surprised to see it for the first time! It may be impossible for many people to take action against mienfoo, but I once supported mienfoo now I feel the same way. If you do so, it will have a greater impact. Timburr cannot completely replace mienfoo, and some Mons led by porygon will become more lawless.
Natu:Good job gali! You brought attention back to natu. As for natu, the conditions for supporting and opposing people are sufficient. I guess the probability remains the same. Nevertheless, this may be one of our few opportunities. For me, I hate many speed ties brought by natu or mienfoo together, but now it doesn't matter to me, so I remain neutral to natu. Of course, I'm still looking forward to meta change, lol.
Grookey:My friend acehunter really want grookey to leave, lol. Personally, I support sus it, but I don't know the consequences. Maybe it will get better, who knows? Based on the view of most people, I think it is difficult to implement.
Carvanha:The swing position in my heart. If carvanha left, meta wouldn't change much, but carvanha really made a lot of predictions, a lot. I hope you will pay more attention on it. About carvanha's post, you can go ahead and find some, I think mine, Éric's and the reply I received on that post is complete.
Papillon Cheese: likeand so on. I don't think it's broken, but it's really annoying.

After writing here, I realized that the first half of this post is more suitable for the conclusion of my lcpl and will be released a month later. I take back what I said earlier that this is my last article, lol. This article may be long in my plan, but I want to leave some for the summary post of lcpl. So here is a simple ending. I want to say go The Remoraiders!

 

[Roldski32]

On topic regarding Natu. I can't directly support a suspect test on Natu with the context being "Natu as a whole is broken and is too much for the tier", but I'm not heavily opposed to suspect testing Natu either (I'm also not opposed on suspecting Mienfoo and Grookey too). This is a pretty odd case because when something is being suspect tested, we think it is problematic and could be too much for the tier to handle, but applying this to Natu just... doesn't make sense, as Natu isn't broken at all. Assuming we actually went for Natu suspect, we are not going to suspect test Natu because it is broken, we are suspecting it because of the speedties between it, Mienfoo and Grookey, which is the problem in the meta. Honestly, I can't really pinpoint which one is really the most problematic element between the three 17 Speeder mons and should be suspect tested right now. Also, I personally wanted to prioritized on us suspecting Mienfoo, Grookey or Natu first, and not on stuff like Screens (Light Clay), Magby, Shellos, Arena Trap or whatever what was brought up in this thread. It's like your ditching the 17 speedtie problem and try to find something else that you think is a problem to suspect test instead (or anything so that we could do the suspect test rn) just because you think neither of these three 17 Speeder mons are broken on their own.