I’ve been reading this thread and saw some very interesting ideas as to how the current LC Meta could be made better. The problem I’m seeing is nobody can find one solid solution that deals with a lot of the tiers main problems being speed ties, the grookey dilemma, and mienfoo centralization. I think there is a way to deal with all of this while keeping the core of LC’s current meta in tact:
I would like to propose unbanning Cutiefly.
I truly believe that this would help the meta grow out of 50/50s while maintaining what the already established meta is. And I have 3 main reasons why:
1.) Cutiefly’s potential movesets/counters
I believe that the mons common moves you will see on cutiefly are U-turn, Moonblast, Roost, Psychic, Bug Buzz, Quiver Dance, and Stun Spore.
Each of these moves will obviously depend on what kind of set you are using (life orb, Eviolite, sash, etc) However, what makes this not broken is that once you know the set, you can reasonably check it with multiple different mons. If it’s life orb with psychic, you can trap it with diglett. If it’s evio, you can wall it with the majority of standard poison/steel types in the meta. Munchlax and Porygon can also reasonably deal with any set it has to offer.
The main point I’m making here is this: The same defensive checks that are already prevalent in the meta are the same defensive checks that deal with Cutiefly.
2.) Mon’s Cutiefly’s checks/counters
Cutiefly is a mon that can both offensively and defensively pressure some of the most common threats in the tier. Mienfoo and Grookey are the main ones I want to focus on due to the outcry for their bans in order to beat Cutiefly you would need to be scarf stone edge foo or grassy seed acro grookey. While the foo is very very niche the grookey is more common, however, you also know what it is immediately and can play around it. The really important thing about this to me is that Cutiefly is just another offensive pressure to these two while having the same weaknesses as the things it’s checking.
3.) What a meta with Cutiefly would look like
I think the biggest reason why unbanning Cutiefly is a good move is how it affects the meta as a whole. The majority of the meta would stay the same (ie defensive cores/offensive threats) however, minor changes will occur such as rock slide diglett maybe becoming more common, munchlax usage rising, Steel type ferro seed move coverage, and little things like that. While the problems of limited foo and grookey counterplay and speed ties will no longer be as big a factor.
Conclusion:
Cutiefly could be the change this tier needs both to be more fun, and less rng reliant. I’d like to hear some other peoples opinions on this and see if anything comes from this I may have missed but all in all I think this would be a great move for the SS LC meta going forward.
I am very hesitant to accept a cutiefly unban. This is for 2 main reasons.
1.) Hard to Check Offensively
Of the checks and counters you listed, you mentioned steel and poison types. There's a pretty simple problem with this. Once you have a quiver dance up, you opponent has to play keep away and cannot deal with it offensively. At +1 Speed, it outspeeds everything in the tier minus scarf diglett or ponyta. All of the checks you listed are meant to be slow and bulky and have a very slow speed tier. In addition, the priority in the tier consists of grassy glide, mach punch, fake out and sucker punch, all of which cutiefly resists.
In order to be able to deal with cutiefly when its set up, you have to be able to
A) Take a hit
B) Be able to OHKO it back
C)You cannot do this with priority
D) You cannot outspeed
E) you cannot status due to shield dust
Another mon that is also a set up sweeper, namely Tyrunt, has a few issues as to why its not banned.
Its weak to fighting type moves as opposed to a quad resist, meaning that it has a hard time setting up on a lot of teams.
D Dance doesn't buff a defensive stat, so it doesn't become even bulkier while it sets up
It doesn't resist either of grass glide or sucker punch and only reaches 15 speed naturally, meaning revenge killing it significantly easier as practically any scarf mon can get a hit in.
Carv with speed boost turns the entire interaction into a 50/50 if Tyrunt only has a single d dance
2.) Too many sets
Of the sets you mentioned, being life orb, sash, and eviolite, there's already a lot of different things that could go wrong here.
Of what you listed,
Life Orb only has 1 check, and even then its a rarely used set on diglett as is.
Life Orb could run both u turn and roost to be extremely hard to wear down and predict
The two main steels in the tier don't resist bug stab and instead take neutral damage
236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Pawniard: 13-17 (61.9 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
Even with Eviolite, its a 2HKO. Berry Juice can take 3, but even then it can u turn out on you and or hard switch to your main fighting type.
236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Bug Buzz vs. 84 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)
Poison types would be unreliable due to Psychic coverage + physical investment to better check foo, meaning that they're quite unreliable.
236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Koffing: 16-21 (80 - 105%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 21)
236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 116 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 13-18 (56.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 44 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 13-16 (54.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
These are all current sets (at least the ones on the strategy dex), and that is with eviolite. Lets check without eviolite.
236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Koffing: 23-29 (115 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 29)
236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 116 HP / 180 SpD Mareanie: 18-23 (78.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 44 HP / 236 SpD Foongus: 18-23 (75 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
And then we look at quiver dance.
+1 236 SpA Cutiefly Psychic vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Koffing: 16-20 (80 - 100%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
+1 236 SpA Cutiefly Psychic vs. 116 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (14, 14, 14, 14, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
+1 236 SpA Cutiefly Psychic vs. 124 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (14, 14, 14, 14, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
Its just a little bit too fucking nuts. These pokemon would also still have to check foo, meaning that this large an amount of chip would be extremely hard to deal with. Add in a koffing with n gas into the mix to deny regenerator, and it becomes neigh impossible to get health back on these guys.
Download porygon would not be able to switch in cutiefly off of a u turn and must hard switch in or else risk losing the special attack increase due to quiver dance buffing special defense, making it significantly shakier of a check.
Trace Porygon would have a generally hard time chipping it down due to the same reason. You would practically be forced into using thunder wave, which can be easily played around.
Munchlax is weak to mienfoo, which even with the cutiefly rise, would still be incredibly present within the metagame. Also if it gets knocked once, then it can't check anything reliably.
It has access to defog, aromatherapy, screens, tailwind and switcheroo/trick. So any of the previous defensive checks could get gifted a choice item and immediately become hard to use and it can give so much support to a team it'd be hard to be work around.
As a result, I would not be supportive of a cutiefly unban.
Let me know if anything I put here is wrong, as I am still learning myself. I think that if cutiefly just had less possible moves and especially no quiver dance, it could fit into our current meta much better. It can just do basically anything you want it to while being at base 19 speed. Even 1 less speed stat would make it more manageable due to needing the quiver dance to outspeed things like staryu, abra and ponyta.