Aaaa sorry I'm a bit late with this </3
It's been a heck of a week on my end and I'm hoping things will be more normal soon, but also I just have terrible focus and can by no means place the blame entirely on external circumstances
Ahem uh
Hello again, everyone!
As per usual, this post will be an end-of-submission-phase feedback post and a
roughly 24-hour warning for the current submission phase, in order to give time to respond to the feedback in question. C:
If I don't mention your sub in this post, it's probably fine balance-wise and you're not required to make any changes! It doesn't mean I forgot!
Also, an update on
Jynx:
Jynx has rather a lot in common with
Mega Parasect (both have high Speed, accurate sleep and +2 offensive setup while being weak to Stealth Rock and U-turn, and they are very much on the frail side); on the other hand, it can also risk becoming more similar to
Mega Butterfree, a much worse-balanced and unpopular Mega with similar characteristics but much higher Speed (and less accurate moves, among other things).
These kinds of fast sleep Pokémon exist in a reeeally delicate balance, and Mega Butterfree is kind of a crucial example of one that has gone badly wrong, so I
really want everyone to be
extremely careful with Jynx's Speed and have Lovely Kiss in mind!
I think leaning as close as possible to Mega Parasect's Speed is well advised; there are some incredibly relevant Pokémon above base 115, including ones that should be able to respond to Parasect and Jynx (some examples being Cinderace, which should realistically be an outright losing matchup for Jynx, and Tornadus-T, which can hit it hard with a U-turn and switch out rather than just being put to sleep or forced to hard-switch without making progress).
With that in mind, I will be imposing a soft
limit of base 115 Speed following the precedent of Parasect and individually notifying people who exceed it!
I don't think there are that many important Pokémon between 115 and 118, so as long as you're below 119, I think it's probably fine
Thank you for understanding!
Also, always consider having as few movepool additions as possible! We don't have hard rules on these but if you have even five or six you're probably doing something wrong
This is only about the note above, but is there any chance you could lower its Speed by like 2 points just to ease my mind?
Hi! As noted in the slate opening post, we're pretty concerned about Electric/Fighting Electivire overlapping too much with Mega Raichu. While I'm aware you took note of this and made the choice to focus on punching moves instead of kicking moves, I... will be honest I do not think that is enough :'D
The difference between punching moves and kicking moves is flavorful; it doesn't inherently change how the two Pokémon function (although it's true in this case that Raichu hits harder and suffers recoil, that's about it).
Moreover, you've given the two of them exactly the same Speed tier, which is something I'm not comfortable with.
Uh, in general, I feel I should highlight that there is a
pretty high bar to make an Electivire with Electric/Fighting and Iron Fist work effectively at all, given both its existing competition in this meta and the fact that its Ability does nothing to set it apart except pure breaking power (which Raichu will always have over it in spades).
I am sure the idea will see a lot of support almost by default (a ton of people independently planned on it up front), and that makes it especially important to handle with care rather than just accepting the person who got to it first, because letting this by without scrutinizing it could be negatively impactful in the long run. With that in mind, I do not feel this sub should be accepted; I'm given to understand there are multiple other Iron Fist Electivire which I will come to cover shortly, so I am sorry to say that ~ there can only be one ~ and it really should not be this one, I'm afraid.
u H yeah this is broken
Contrary is an incredibly strong Ability that needs to be respected, and Magmortar here combines it with immediate breaking power, high Speed
and excellent coverage which very much should not go together.
For an example of how to balance this Ability effectively, I would encourage you to look to the difference between Serperior and Lurantis: Serperior has the same base Speed as Magmortar, but its viable offensive movepool is limited to basically just Leaf Storm and Hidden Power, forcing it to rely on utility moves to sustain itself and leaving it very completely hard-walled by prominent double-resistances even at +6; Lurantis has the same attacking type and the same Contrary Leaf Storm, but it comes with better coverage (still little of note on the special side, but it adds Superpower
and Knock by proxy of a usable Attack stat; though Serperior also has the move, it uses it for utility, not for coverage to its repertoire for better mixed snowballing) in exchange for a massive 68 points less Speed; and Lurantis's Special Attack is 80, Serperior's is 75, and Leaf Storm is by far the worst and most wallable attacking type of any of the five moves that lower the user's Special Attack (to put it in perspective, remember that I noted multiple prominent
double-resists in OU - like Corviknight and Heatran - not just single-resists). Serperior is still pretty delicately balanced and unpopular among some singles players as it is, and Lurantis is definitely better balanced but it's also actually stronger than Serperior in doubles; they're both so carefully balanced for a reason, and the bar for a strong Contrary user is by no means much higher than where they set it.
But uh, to save you some time trying to work out a suitable nerf: Magmortar is not the Pokémon for Contrary and
realistically I will not accept this no matter how you shape its stats. Its movepool alone carries it much too far and its BST simply does not leave room for sufficient nerfs to Speed and Special Attack.
I am pretty sure I vetoed this exact thing on Primarina last slate, specifically because of the Perish Song interaction; we were generally in agreement on the Discord that this would not be healthy and I don't think I can ever allow it on a Pokémon with Perish Song, sorry x:
On the same note as the beginning of the post, I
think after some deliberation that I would rather you lowered Jynx's Speed a bit in Masked Forme, probably similarly to the 115 range. As previously noted on Discord, I'm kinda scared of Ice Face on something with its movepool and would certainly rather play it safe statwise if that's agreeable :'D
on that note, at least aesthetically, I would encourage putting those 5 back into Special Attack!
we tend to be looser with the specific stat rules for form-changing Megas, and it's also unusual in that it's the higher attacking stat that you're lowering and it's really not minmaxing at all, so it's obviously nothing worth disallowing! but if nothing else, I think it would look nicer to avoid a random -5 if there's not a specific reason for it
Speaking
purely by instinct, I am pretty uncomfortable with Imprison on entry, so I'm tentatively
afraid of allowing this even if I don't think I would outright veto it...
but I will actually get to some positives in a bit! I do think this could potentially work as you've set it up, and mostly I'm just sharing all my thoughts in the hopes of prompting some discussion on the Discord or something, I dunno!
This is not a veto it's just an attempted breakdown of the pros and cons of a concept I find a little bit scary
Uh, my main thought process here is that this
might need to be banned from VGC, because barring the entire opposing team from using crucial moves like Protect and Trick Room could potentially lead to some very unfair matchups and invalidate both team archetypes and crucial defensive counterplay to its allies.
With that being said, being potentially broken in VGC is not grounds for a veto as long as it's fine in singles - my stance is sort of... uh, the most important thing here is just
making sure that this sub is worthwhile and can still thrive in a singles environment despite that, and I want to emphasize that this mostly just makes me want its Ability to be fundamentally important to it and used to the fullest in a singles context!
After all, banning Jynx in the
only format where its Ability is worthwhile is much different from banning it in one while still leaving it in a great position in the other. If that... makes any sense at all.
All of this is to say that the absolute
worst-case scenario (for me) would be feeling like this Ability only mattered in VGC, where it is as likely to have unhealthy applications as interesting ones, and I think the priority should definitely be on getting this to a point where it could still thrive and be valuable and interesting even if it weren't allowed in VGC.
With all of that said, I will say
I think you've done a pretty impressive job of making this feel plausibly relevant in singles, since blocking (and monopolizing!) Knock and Recover is definitely a valid niche that should come up pretty often.
Blocking Knock in particular helps Jynx a whole lot defensively since it's one of the most prevalent Dark moves at all, and having to run those moves to block them shouldn't interfere with Jynx's ability to make progress of its own because they're... like... good moves most Pokémon would probably be happy to run anyway, even if they mean running relatively different sets from base Jynx. I think this is actually pretty legitimate as a foundation and I can see it working out for the sub, which is a lot better than I feared when I just saw the Ability and it makes me think I should allow this!
On that note, maybe it would be wise to lean further into that and make this physically offensive? Running Triple Axel and Knock sounds workable, and there's no way it fits all of Recover, Knock and Plot on the same set, so getting more use out of Knock and less out of Plot might encourage people to make better use of its Ability.
One small heads-up: I think it's worth noting the unfortunate fact that Imprison disables Cancel Mod (the thing that lets you hit "cancel" and pick a new move if your opponent hasn't made their selection yet) to avoid information leaks,
which maaay occasionally come up more often than its other applications in singles, and that sounds really frustrating as a player; there's an extent to which the way Imprison works makes me kind of not want this in the mod anyway, but that is very much a personal opinion and does not reflect how the Ability would work in a real game anyway, so it's hardly grounds for a serious objection .w.
Aaaaa I don't know if I feel safe with this
Uh, the thing is that base 145 Sheer Force Fire Blast hits hard as
heck (compare Mega Camerupt, which has a similarly good defensive type and a Rock neutrality and good coverage, plus the same Ability and Special Attack... but it only gets base
20 Speed and it mostly functions as an offensive pivot or Trick Room abuser, while this just naturally outspeeds a
massive chunk of the metagame with its incredible base 113 Speed), and Magmortar has strong coverage of multiple types that can abuse its Ability; on top of that, Fire/Steel is
amazing defensively
My instinct is that you should probably pick at least one of these things to drop? I've overestimated offensive Fire-types in the past (esp. considering Pokémon like Darmanitan and Charizard Y are just fine) and I think its offensive presence is probably more reasonable than it looks,
but not if it's also Fire/Steel to give it amazing defenses and circumvent its Rock weakness; conversely, you can definitely get a cool sub out of Fire/Steel Sheer Force, but maybe it should have a sub-100 Speed tier to make up for its excellent offensive and defensive presence; or you could compromise and keep both the stats and type the same, but then maybe you shouldn't have a raw power-boosting Ability to go with it?
Two out of the three are probably fine and can be cool, but I am not really comfortable allowing all three at once
I think this one is also a bit too fast, and seeing it is actually what made me think to put the note at the top of the post :') but uh, I think this one actually has probably more in common with Mega Parasect than the others (what with Lovely Kiss having perfect accuracy) and it's probably one of the most important to keep at a similar Speed tier accordingly - I feel bad because I like your aesthetic reasoning behind 127 Speed, but I do think that's a bit much for unblockable/unavoidable sleep and would definitely encourage you to go lower OTL
That aside, I am interested to know how you feel about No Guard for the Ability instead? I notice Jynx has a wide movepool of low-accuracy moves that could benefit (like Blizzard and Focus Blast), and I think it would be cool to include them in the effect, especially in exchange for the lower Speed; I think allowing it that kind of consistency would be super valuable, and... well, it goes without saying that sleep is intuitively
the most frightening thing that you could pair with No Guard, but this already has that as its main point and is balanced for it! so the cause for concern is much lower
It feels a little wasteful to me to boost just three moves (of which Sweet Kiss should never be run competitively and Draining Kiss already has perfect accuracy, so really just Lovely Kiss), so I think using a non-custom Ability that achieves the same effect and more might be a good call O:
That is just my opinion though! You're welcome to do as you please on this front C:
I am just putting down for the record that this is a much better handled version of Electric/Fighting Iron Fist and I am more willing to accept this one - I strongly appreciate that it differentiates itself from Raichu with a much lower Speed tier and much better bulk while having both priority and draining to justify its Ability
This one is actually really interesting to me and I think Magmortar is a good Pokémon for it!! I like that you've set it up so that it affects the weaker one of its STABs but not the stronger, so it's really encouraged to play around both of its two Speed tiers, and I'm really glad that this is on something without special setup so the higher Speed tier is easily kept in check - on the whole, I feel very comfortable allowing this and I respect it!!
That said, I just thought I should give a minor heads-up because I think you are operating on some small misconceptions:
- You might want to specify aura and pulse moves (from Mega Launcher), not ballistic/ball and bomb moves (from Bulletproof)!
Aura Sphere happens to be considered both, but otherwise they are two distinct categories; judging from STAB Dark Pulse and your movepool additions in general, I am pretty sure you meant aura and pulse moves C:
- With respect to the Speed tier: I'm not positive if you were working with different numbers before or if you were calculating the modifier incorrectly, but I think you're actually underselling it!
Max Speed for base 113 is 357, so that with a 1.25x modifier would be 446; that creeps Pokémon of base 153 by one point, which is well past Mega Lopunny or Mega Manectric
Personally, I'm actually pretty okay with this! Based on how hard it appears to hit and on its aforementioned lack of setup, I think it could be okay and I don't think it necessitates a nerf before due testing
Even so, I wanted to make sure you knew that in case you had a different intention for the stats or modifier or if you would simply lke to amend your description accordingly C:
- also I think the slight Special Defense reduction is actually really neat. I cannot place why it appeals to me aesthetically but it does. I like that
In any case, I actually quite like this sub : D
... I
I don't know what to say :'D
but I will try to give coherent feedback nonetheless!! uh
I do think this is a
bit too, uh, elaborate an effect to pass as a realistic Ability, so some streamlining would probably be a good idea
That said, I am genuinely reeling at the flavor and I cannot help but admire how much fun you had with this (that's a bit contagious, actually!) so I am happy to try to work with it!
The thing that sort of stands out to me is... this effectively introduces not one but two new Abilities (Eleganza and Slaying), and it also creates a new volatile status with some unusual interactions beyond its basic effect
(one thing I would just keep in mind going forward actually: Magic Coat and Magic Bounce don't work on Abilities in general - like, you can bounce back Growl, but you can't bounce back Intimidate - so I would actually suggest dropping that part! but even then, "doesn't work on Dark-types" is oddly specific and has only happened in canon as a balance patch to an already-widespread Ability, so I'm not sure it's needed here even as a limiting factor and it sorta just makes the Ability take more explanation)
I think rather than introducing a new volatile, you could accomplish a similar effect just by lowering the targets' evasion, and rather than making two separate Abilities or making it replace its effect after the first use, you could perhaps prioritize just one of the two defenses instead of both and justify making the Ability both more safely spammable and more practical/effective in the process!
With that in mind, my recommendation to streamline it would be something like
"Dance moves harshly lower the evasion of adjacent foes and also raise Jynx's (pick one defense) by one stage"
or similar
... and
I'm not going to lie, I actually think the flavor text you've attached to the volatile is hilarious so I will happily make it display in-battle whenever the Ability activates even if there's not a new volatile to go with it P:
This might be a weird suggestion to make, since it is actually a buff and not a nerf, but: could I recommend making it so Ground-types are still hit neutrally rather than resisting Electric-type moves? This is less because I think there's any balance issue and more just for consistency with similar effects! Since other canon effects (like Scrappy, Thousand Arrows and the Ring Target) all turn immunities into neutralities, it feels strange for just this one to be only half as good, you know?
That said, I think the stats you chose are really well balanced for the effect O:
I'm normally pretty concerned by Electric Scrappy, but I think this Electivire is mild enough to make it work!
And I see nothing wrong with your Magmortar! C:
I was hesitant on your Electivire and Magmortar on account of sharing Abilities with two other people's subs, but I think the fact that both of these are generic power-boosting Abilities means the difference in STABs and stats is all I could ask for within reason; these Abilities are really not role-defining concepts that could belong to one person or another the way a more unique one might be
Uh, I am actually
very unsure as to whether I should allow your
Magmortar specifically, though - Sheer Force Focus Blast hits for pretty ridiculous damage, and Earth Power and Thunderbolt are both crazy coverage options with this Ability
I would encourage you to have much lower Special Attack than this (like, 130 range at most?) if you want Fighting to be your secondary STAB of choice, and Earth Power might just be better off removed altogether, although I guess we could allow that and see if it needs nerfing later; I have voiced my concerns with Rcook's sub already, but Steel is at least a much worse secondary STAB with much lower BP, so I think it is a bigger issue here
Nope
I have vetoed this before and will do it again every time until this concept stops coming up
Confusion on entry is wildly uncompetitive and has zero skill-based applications, and it's even worse if you would have it apply to all adjacent opponents like Intimidate in doubles
but no it is not even close to fine in singles with or without that
- I love these
- your Jynx is actually freaking hilarious and also really mechanically interesting and I badly want it
- the only concern I have is the aforementioned note about Speed on Jynx (from the top of this post); I think you may be better off giving this lower Speed in the vicinity of 115 like the others if that's okay, sorry;;
/
... I don't... actually know if I want to allow this
and admittedly I am a
little hesitant specifically because of the obvious "it's likely that even if one wins, the other will not, and then it would make too little sense"
so I'm afraid I would lean towards no and you should probably switch to your backup subs, yeah :')
This is a really cute idea, though! If you have a solomod or anything where you can have these as a pair, I think it's a good one to use there C:
Aaah I'm really sorry to hear about your week;;;
I hope you're doing better D: and please get some rest!!!
Super minor feedback on this one while I have the opportunity: it's entirely your choice, but you are welcome to follow the precedent of Poison Touch and simply add a 30% burn chance in addition to whatever secondary effect may already have been on the move! I think this might be more intuitive than replacing the secondary effect, if only because it's been done before in canon, but it's totally up to you! C:
(This also sounds like a really functionally unusual one and has definitely piqued my interest!!)
This one is admittedly a little scary to me and I'm not totally sure I should allow it, but actually, this is less because of competition with Lycanroc and more because of competition with Garbodor (which has an arguably
much weaker effect on its Ability, but that Ability is very much its main selling point and is actually incredibly strong on its own in a vacuum, so overshadowing it like this is probably not a good call); that aside, I think this is probably just too easy a way to secure burns on entry, since terrain setters are pretty ubiquitous and you can just run your own Rillaboom or tapu as a teammate if you want to guarantee the Ability can activate
If you're looking for ideas of how to make it weaker, though! I think you could always give Magmortar natural access to Defog, then make its Ability simply burn all Pokémon
when Magmortar successfully clears hazards or terrains on its own? (rather than the Ability doing the clearing)
I think effectively compressing Wisp + Defog in singles, and being able to spend a turn to burn the whole field in doubles, could be a really cool niche in its own right without being as overwhelming, which might be useful to you if you're attached to the effect!
This is hilarious but I do think it is probably quite a lot weaker than you had in mind :'D
Uh, if you do want to give it the Normal type for Giga Impact, I don't think any reasonable person would stop you
Aaand I think that's all!
Submissions will close and voting should begin in 24 hours or a bit later, and the council will make a compilation of all of the legal entries then! If you've gotten feedback here that you want to address, it would be best to do that as soon as possible with that in mind. C:
(As usual, though: no worries if you can't quite make it by then! If you decide to make changes based on this, then as long as you can do that before voting closes
just leave enough time for people to vote for you! and please make sure to check which council member made the compilation post for that Pokémon and get in touch with them, such as by pinging them or DMing them here or on Discord, we'll be happy to edit the compilation to include any amendments you made!)
edit: aaaa I'm so sorry I pinged the wrong person for one of these - reaching out on Discord now to correct the mistake! thank you Paulluxx for noticing ;-;
