Empoleon and Starmie

gabriel

gabriel

I decided to run some calculations to see how well can Empoleon wall Starmie and the results were surprised. Are they right?

- I used the Metal Kid calculator linked to the D/P resource thread.
- I considered Grass Knot Power BP on Starmie 80, as stated on the Grass Knot Reference Thread.
- According to Starmie analysis, there are 2 commom EV spreads to Starmie. I based my calculations on them. They're Timid.
- Leftovers will be considered for both sides.

1) 172HP/120Sp.Atk (leftovers)

Empoleon needs around 100 Sp.Atk EVs to 2KO Starmie with GK, so, let's assume the EV spread Empoleon uses is 252 HP/156 Sp.Def/100 Sp.Atk (Calm)

Starmie does no more than 32~38 with TBolt (a 4KO if Empoleon is lucky), and is 2KOed by GK.

2) 6HP/252Sp.Atk (Choice Specs)

Empoleon's above EV spread is 2KOed by Specs TBolt and 2KO with GK. Considering you'll switch on IB/Surf, it's even easier to wall. As Starmie has no Leftovers recovery, you can run 252HP/252Sp.Def/6HP, so you can barely survive 2TBolt and have a great chance of 2KOing with GK.

It's impossible to don't be 2KOed by a Modest Specs Star, but again, you have the lock factor on your side.

So, based on these calculations, can Empoleon be considered a solid Starmie counter? I'm so surprised with the results I even think I made some mistakes, am I right?
 
No it can not. If it's modest CSpecs starmie it can't switch on TBolt without being severly damaged, and killed next round.
 
If this is the first time you see said starmie, then you won't know what item it has, so switching empoleon in would be dangerous incase it is specced. Even if it uses a not very effective attack, it will switch out, and you will be none the wiser, so you won't know next time either.
 
Also empoleon can't really do much back to starmie in the first place unless it carries grass knot which is common but starmie can hit it twice before it can move
 
Lanturn is a solid Starmie counter. Empoleon is not, especially against a Specs'd Starmie. One way to find out is to use Stealth Rock and see if it recovers HP from leftovers or not. If it does, you may want to consider switching in a ghost as it'll want to spin away the rocks. So, in both cases, I wouldn't switch Empoleon in.
 
So, it's true that a non-Specs Starmie is countered by Empoleon (using the EV spread I posted, you 2KO it, while Starmie can't even get a sure 3KO on you). In theory, Specs Star counters Empoleon with easy, but I believe that in reality, it has a worse time than it looks.

Let's suppose I use a Empoleon to counter some of my Garchomp counters (Bulky Waters and Starmie). As I pointed above, unless it's a CS Starmie, Empoleon doesn't have much trouble to counter it. But supposing it's a Specs Star...

The opponent will certainly use IB to counter Chomp, which is a free switch to Empoleon. I can setup some SR, Yawn or even cause damage on the Starmie switch. But if after 2 mispredictions my opponent decide to use TBolt on Garchomp, to hit Empoleon on the switch...

Empoleon will take about 50%, or something close to 60 if it's a Modest Starmie (outspeeded by Jolly Garchomp), and I can just switch back to Garchomp, as Starmie is locked in a electric move.

So, even tough it's 2KOed by Specs Star TBolt (maybe 3KOed, if Starmie's Timid), Empoleon can still put a huge dent on Starmie.
 
This is turning into "if this pokemon is xyz nature and xyz moveset and xyz item then you can/can't counter it." This argument can be made for TONS of pokemon as "counters" to a particular set. By the definition of counter: specs starmie is very viable and empoleon can't take more than 2 hits, so he really isn't a counter. He IS a situational counter, but every pokemon can be a situational counter to something. He isn't a complete counter, only situational
 
gabriel said:
So, even tough it's 2KOed by Specs Star TBolt (maybe 3KOed, if Starmie's Timid), Empoleon can still put a huge dent on Starmie.
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No, Starmie can put a huge dent on Empoleon or it'll switch out. If it's not Specs'd, it'll have done its job by either hurting Empoleon or rapid spinning. Don't forget that it has Recover while Empoleon has no reliable way to recover HP.
 
It's not a IF situation. Specs Star often uses Surf/IB and Empoleon can take it with easy. If Specs Star hits Empoleon with TBolt, it'll take around 50% (a small amount considering it's a SE Choice Move) but then it'll be vunerable to Ground types.

So, if Empoleon can counter non-Specs Star, walls CS Surf/IB/Psychic and help ground types to come in TBolt, it's a good counter. No matter what the definition is.

It can exploit Choice Specs Starmie weakness, and counter more defensive versions, so why isn't it a counter?
 
CWW said:
No, Starmie can put a huge dent on Empoleon or it'll switch out. If it's not Specs'd, it'll have done its job by either hurting Empoleon or rapid spinning. Don't forget that it has Recover while Empoleon has no reliable way to recover HP.
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But being 2KOed makes Recover useless. You recover 50%, then you take 50%. You're just waiting the opponent to CH you.
 
It can recover when you try to switch Empoleon again or a Ground type. At least it is able to. Empoleon on the other hand will be weared down by repeated Thunderbolts or said Ground by Surfs if you mispredict. It's like saying Dusclops counters Heracross. It really doesn't when you think about it.
 
If Starmie has Recover, it isn't a Specs Star. If it isn't a Specs Star, it can't even 3KO Empoleon and it's 2KOed, so unless there's some kind of hax (CH or paralysis), Empoleon won't switch and Starmie is screwed. If it's Specs Star, a basic team work will handle it.

Empoleon can't wall Starmie like Blissey does, but it's certainly a solid and usable choice to counter the psychic star and Bulky waters.
 
My Empoleon is weird, it runs defense EVs and nothing in the offense department (helps for surviving random Earthquakes or mixed attackers), but I might add some Sa to solve a few Starmie problems. Is 100 EVs the exact amount you need? This is pretty cool information for me, I do have some Starmie problems.
 
If Empoleon is a solid counter for Starmie, you should be able to switch it into a Starmie to help determine which Starmie you are facing. If you have to use something else to determine the flavor BEFORE switching in, then it isn't a safe counter. A true counter should be able to switch in reliably (not guaranteed) right off the bat.

I think the OP's point is still helpful. I, for one, was not aware that Empoleon could counter Starmie in any reasonable situation. Sure, I knew GK would hurt Starmie. But I didn't realize how ineffective TB was from a Timid non-speced Starmie.
 
It'll probably work the first time, but not necessarily each time after that, which is what counters do. Starmie won't be screwed because it'll switch to an Empoleon counter such as Gyarados and reverse the roles.

The problem is finding out if it's Specs'd or not and it won't Recover with full HP. Smart prediction can indeed put you into a good position against anything Choiced, but it isn't a reliable counter if it can be 2HKO'd.
 
@kamikaen:

252 HP/252 Sp.Def/6 Sp.Atk Empoleon does 48,3~56,9% with GK
252 HP/144 Sp.Def/114 Sp.Atk does 53,2~63,8 with GK

The first EV spread is completely defensive, and Starmie can't do more than 4KO it without Choice Specs. It 2KO Specs Star, and have a small chance of 2KOing defensive Starmie.

The second EV spread has good chances of surviving 3 unboosted TBolt and 2KO both Specs and defensive Starmie.
 
DougJustDoug said:
If Empoleon is a solid counter for Starmie, you should be able to switch it into a Starmie to help determine which Starmie you are facing. If you have to use something else to determine the flavor BEFORE switching in, then it isn't a safe counter. A true counter should be able to switch in reliably (not guaranteed) right off the bat.

I think the OP's point is still helpful. I, for one, was not aware that Empoleon could counter Starmie in any reasonable situation. Sure, I knew GK would hurt Starmie. But I didn't realize how ineffective TB was from a Timid non-speced Starmie.
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If you switch in a Starmie TBolt, and you take more than 50%, you can be sure you're facing a Specs Star, so feel free to switch to Dugtrio/Ttar/Chomp.

If you take around 1/3, it's a defensive Starmie, so kill it with GK.

Empoleon can afford a mispredicted Thunderbolt and help something to counter Starmie or even counter the star by itself.
 
gabriel said:
So, based on these calculations, can Empoleon be considered a solid Starmie counter? I'm so surprised with the results I even think I made some mistakes, am I right?
Click to expand...

I hate to say I told you so, but:
252 HP / 100 SAtk / 152 SDef Modest is MY ev spread. Counters Starmie very well. How are you surprised that a special wall stops a special attacker? Seriously, what's the big revelation? With that set even Magnezone's Thunderbolt does only 70% (not that you switch in to him, but you can KO him).

So yeah.
 
gabriel said:
If you switch in a Starmie TBolt, and you take more than 50%, you can be sure you're facing a Specs Star, so feel free to switch to Dugtrio/Ttar/Chomp.

If you take around 1/3, it's a defensive Starmie, so kill it with GK.

Empoleon can afford a mispredicted Thunderbolt and help something to counter Starmie or even counter the star by itself.
Click to expand...

All that means is that Empoleon won't DIE to SpecStar. Lots of stuff can "not die" to a spec'd Starmie tbolt. That doesn't make it a counter -- it's a hobbled survivor. If I can deal over 50% damage to the pokemon switched in to see if I'm speced/banded, I'd say that's a pretty good deal. I'll gladly "reveal" my moveset to my opponent, by pounding one of their walls down to yellow health.
 
Yeah I agree with doug, so you trade 50% of your walls life, just to learn that your opponent is using a certain moveset, not the best deal ever. Its also not the worst thing that could happen, but still makes you cringe.

Neways if your opponent drops your empoleon into killing range from the next tbolt... whos to say they wont predict the switch into a grounder? And send out there own counter to that? Its not like empoleon poses that much of a threat.
 
JakeA said:
Yeah I agree with doug, so you trade 50% of your walls life, just to learn that your opponent is using a certain moveset, not the best deal ever. Its also not the worst thing that could happen, but still makes you cringe.

Neways if your opponent drops your empoleon into killing range from the next tbolt... whos to say they wont predict the switch into a grounder? And send out there own counter to that? Its not like empoleon poses that much of a threat.
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Don't underestimate Empoleon. Sure, he's definitely not going to be something you send in to outstall Special threats. But he's unique in that he actually kills them with its great offense. Resisting Porygon-Z and Azelf STAB can't hurt either.

"trading half your wall's life" sounds bad, but that's based on the outdated mentality that you only need one wall per attacking type and that walls should stall everything.
 
OMFG Chris is me is back from impisonment... lol.

Starmie does seem pretty much blocked by Empoleon. But empoleon does have to be at max hp and needs to know that starms isn't spec'ed.
 
Chris is me said:
Don't underestimate Empoleon. Sure, he's definitely not going to be something you send in to outstall Special threats. But he's unique in that he actually kills them with its great offense. Resisting Porygon-Z and Azelf STAB can't hurt either.

"trading half your wall's life" sounds bad, but that's based on the outdated mentality that you only need one wall per attacking type and that walls should stall everything.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Empoleon. I don't play it on my teams, but I've got a lot of respect for it. I think a lot of people forget what Empoleon can do. Not only does it resist a lot of stuff, but more importantly, it can kill a lot of stuff it resists. That's really the great thing about Empoleon. Yes, Blissey can wall the shit out of stuff. But, it can threaten very little. That's why Blissey is a one-turn switch in 90% of the time. Empoleon can switch in and stay there.

I just don't think I'd be blind switching into Starmie, just to scout the moveset. In that case, Blissey is really much safer. And, everybody has Blissey on their team, so why risk Empoleon? I like Empoleon. But, it's not a Starmie counter.
 
Uh why would you ever need to counter Starmie itself? I'd personally be worried with all my teams to 'counter Rapid Spin' instead than Starmie. I mean, don't you think you might have a team problem if Starmie is an actual problem ?
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
Uh why would you ever need to counter Starmie itself? I'd personally be worried with all my teams to 'counter Rapid Spin' instead than Starmie. I mean, don't you think you might have a team problem if Starmie is an actual problem ?
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Yeah, in a roundabout way, that was kinda my point. For the movesets mentioned here, your "Starmie counter" is your special wall. You don't need a dedicated Starmie counter. You make an even more practical argument -- in that Starmie is really only used for spinning these days.
 
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