Hey all, I'm going to be making one more post just to clear up some of the misconceptions that have been conveyed in my post. I recognize I didn't word myself the best, so I will try to address the counterarguments that have been made.
This post seems very misguided. You start off trying to showcase that Zamazenta-C doesn't completely mandhandle offense/HO, but have to resort to examples of using BO/Balance builds to mention counter play. Teams running Hippo, Tang, Amoong are not even close to being considered HO.
This is a complete misinterpretation of the illustration I was trying to build with my examples. Bear in mind that this was under the "Other Matchups" section, which was geared toward deconstructing Zamazenta-C's matchup against other kinds of offenses. I apologize that the structure of my post didn't make this sentiment the most clear, but to call my post misguided when I try to explore the nature of offense in general makes me feel as though you didn't really comprehend the fundamental point I was trying to make about it, being that different archetypes of offenses have counterplay, including HO archetypes which I do address in bulk.
Likewise, I mention Sand because it is a weather archetype, which is what I dedicated a paragraph to addressing. While Sand balance tends to be the quintessential embodiment of Sand, I felt it was worth mentioning because it is a weather-based archetype and would be dismissive of me to not mention, as generally Sand teams use its weather as a win condition, similarly to Rain or Sun. To downplay the sentiment of my post because I mentioned different archetypes is bold, especially as BO and Sand teams are still forms of offense and the former of which is considered to be one of the strongest archetypes in the tier currently.
The only legitimate examples are Rain, Sun, and Webs. Rain can hold it's own due to swift swimmers and Zapdos, but Zama still poses a significant threat. Because Rain can only threaten to revenge with CB Barra/Specs Kindgra after saccing something while Zama dominates the rest of the team. Being weak to rocks, Zapdos can only keep it in check if it is the Defensive HDB set, which mandates you to run a more balance centric build anyway, bringing us back to the first point I mentioned.
For the sake of this argument, let's say that you lose momentum in Rain and need to check Zamazenta-C.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 123-145 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 102-121 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 124-146 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Offensive Zapdos runs HDB standardly, so I'm not exactly sure why you say the contrary.)
Not only are these moves not doing a ton, even with Adamant, without a Howl boost, but Zapdos fishing for Static against Zamazenta as it tries to break past it is not a tall order whatsoever given its access to Roost, especially if Zamazenta lacks Ice Fang. Once Zamazenta-C is paralyzed, it becomes dead weight--even with Ice Fang, Zapdos has several opportunities to cripple Zamazenta-C since while keeping healthy it has the chance to incapacitate it simultaneously. With Ice Fang, though, Zamazenta-C will lose to Pelipper unless it runs BoltBeam + CC, which can force it to take key damage through Wild Charge chip damage, or force a gamble with Zapdos and only increasing Static opportunities. Regardless of all of this, like I said, if you are put into a position where Zamazenta-C is able to break past Rain, that is your own fault, as Rain is centered around wearing down checks and putting either a win condition (usually a Swift Swim abuser or Nasty Plot Tornadus-T/Thundurus-T) into a position where it can clean. This is, fundamentally, how inherently hyper offensive weather teams work.
Similarly, the only thing sun has is Venusaur being able to threaten to revenge it with weather ball while sun is up, which is far from being enough of a counter measure. Not to mention, sun right now is a pretty bad and barely viable playstyle anyway.
Webs do limit Zama's speed, but it still dominates due to the virtue of it's typing and bulk. And even after the -1 speed drop, Zama outspeeds some breakers, namely Crawdaunt. Webs is an extremely temporary measure as they can easily be defogged away.
The sentence I bolded demonstrates that you agree Sun is not an archetype that really should be considered, which I feel is agreeable, given that Sun faces a wealth of issues right now that Zamazenta-C isn't really responsible for, which you ultimately seem to show an agreement toward too. I only mentioned Sun because, again, I wanted to address weather archetypes as a whole. My analysis regarding Sun wasn't the most sound, but given that we agree on its irrelevance for other reasons, it's not worth further discussing.
Webs, similarly, face issues for reasons that Zamazenta-C is not solely responsible for, but I mention it because the speed drop does allow for Zamazenta to be much more readily overwhelmed, even if it has a better matchup toward Webs in comparison to other offensive Pokemon. Zamazenta-C might be able to knock down one breaker or two, but its lack of longevity lets it be overwhelmed incredibly easily, and it doesn't need too much chip either given that a majority of Webs abusers run coverage or STABs that can naturally threaten Zamazenta-C. There are also options like Garchomp (which is a solid check even against Ice Fang variants) and Aegislash, which I've already discussed.
And it is obvious at this point that Zama completely shuts down every other HO build and most BO builds too. It is too bulky to KO while being able outspeed and KO back 95% of offensive mons in the tier.
This is just outright wrong. How is it obvious that it shuts down every other HO build and BO build when there have been a plethora of posts that have explained and even demonstrated how Zamazenta-C works against these teams, and how the counterplay naturally manifests? It is genuinely not that hard to pick from a list of quite literally over a dozen Pokemon that can perform as both offensive and defensive checks (that have already been metagame staples and have many other positive attributes), and even then there are natural means of counterplay that can overwhelm Zamazenta-C anyway by virtue of its weaknesses, proneness to chip damage, momentum, and complete inability to heal even remotely by itself. \
If you believe that it "obviously completely shuts down" these builds,
explain how. Either do that, and/or show replays that demonstrate it cleaving past these teams without being overwhelmed or picking off key threats without breaking a sweat, or else you're making meaningless, extraneous claims that don't add any productive value to the discussion. Although you later rescind your claim of it shutting down BO, this still applies to your original claim of how it affects HO.
You seem to make a lot of claims that simply aren't practical. Do you think Volt Turn teams can burn and paralyze Zama at will? And in what world is Dragapult an offensive check? It eats 80% from Behemoth Bash and even if it comes in on a predicted CC or in a 1v1 match up, it has to sacrifice itself to get a burn off. Specs Shadow Ball does 40% max, not even a 2HKO. Zama even wins 1v1 battles with offensive mons that have STAB SE moves, e.g. Chomp, Gapdos, Excadrill etc.
You don't seem to understand what an offensive check is; in fact, it's in the name. A
check is not a counter. In this context, it is a Pokemon that has the ability to beat Zamazenta-C given the right circumstances. Dragapult eclipses Zamazenta-C's speed tier by a good margin, with access to two forms of debilitating status, and can easily revenge kill it after a Close Combat drop, not even needing Fire Blast in most circumstances since status is universal to pivot variants and can scare it out anyway by threatening it with key chip damage regardless. Because Zamazenta-C is forced out, Dragapult can very easily use Zamazenta-C as a progress forcing opportunity, either by gaining momentum, spreading status, or chipping down a switch-in. If you think a Specs Dragapult is going to stay in and click Shadow Ball just to get chip damage when Zamazenta-C is at max HP and put itself into a low HP threshold when it has other, more practical options, you are solely mistaken.
Some people claim that Zamazenta-C is broken because it "lives a super effective attack from a super powerful wallbreaker?!" but a lot of these claims do not bear in mind the other variables that put major schisms in Zamazenta-C's bulk, as well as the turn-to-turn circumstances by which it stays healthy, or if it even stays healthy at all. It is not practical to assume that just because a Pokemon lives a certain super effective attack at max HP, it is by virtue broken. These interactions are not black and white, and your claims seem to suggest as such.
If you're running offense, you really have 3 choices to give you a fighting chance. Aegislash, Volcarona, and Victini. Aegislash is the most consistent and splashable check. Bulk Volc does check Zama, but as previously mentioned in this thread, having to bring out Volc early game opens up a lot of holes. Victini isn't the best thing in the world either.
Again, this is an extreme claim that does not apply accurately whatsoever. You can look at my Balance Offense team, which barely had any form of dedicated counterplay, and Zamazenta-C was not even remotely an issue for me. Balance Offenses, for example, have a shitload of options to beat Zamazenta-C and there are a load of highly varied, publicly shared teams (including numerous hyper offenses) that have been used to get requisites that do not employ any of these three Pokemon.
Oh and, the most common Zama set, Howl Adamant, even muscles past Hippowdon and Tangrowth (unless sleep powder). Heck, it can also muscle past defensive Pex and Slowbro if the first scald doesn't burn.
As Finch said, Howl Adamant is not the most common set. In fact, Jolly is a very legitimate option that's used to eclipse three major threats: itself, Low Kick Weavile, and Tornadus-T. In spite of this, I do agree Adamant has some merit and can be utilized to overwhelm some extra Pokemon it otherwise cannot. However, this also has to bear in mind the turn it uses Howl, and/or key chip damage it has to sustain to chip or KO these Pokemon.
About your latter two examples, you do
not Scald in front of a boosted Zamazenta-C. With your latter two examples, the interaction is heavily based in pivoting (as opposed to praying and hoping you can win the 1v1) and positioning a check that is more readily capable of forcing it out. Toxapex uses Haze on the Howl, and if Zamazenta-C chooses not to Howl, Toxapex heals and then fishes for Scald until the Howl boost is intact. Hell, even if there is no pivoting involved (which there, commonly, is not), both of these Pokemon can easily punish Zamazenta-C with Rocky Helmet recoil and/or pressure it until it can help to position a Pokemon that can pick it off.
Although I appreciate your response to my post, I personally feel like you mostly are operating under the assumption that Zamazenta-C will always be enabled 24/7, will always be at max HP, has no status, and that the opponent is only brute forcing Zamazenta-C when none of this is realistic whatsoever, and does not bear in mind the unique interactions that Zamazenta-C has with a majority of its offensive and defensive checks. When it comes to looking at Pokemon like Zamazenta-C, we need to evaluate every variable in a game and look at how they all add up together to overall evaluate the Pokemon's matchups and determine whether we determine these effects to be too constraining or powerful. I have no qualms with anybody who feels the contrary--in fact, I encourage it--but arguments claiming as such need to consider these variables that manifest
constantly in battle instead of assuming the best possible circumstances.
But what I would greatly appreciate learning from you is the threshold of consistency that should be acceptable for HO as a playstyle in the OU metagame.
To end this post off, I would be more than happy to give an answer to this question.
I feel as though what's ideal in the state of HO as a playstyle is that it has options, but also has the ability to be displaced without forcing it to lose on the spot. These conditions are things that people feel Zamazenta-C actively constricts due to its potent revenge killing abilities and it limiting its counterplay, but as I explained in my previous posts, I feel as though the many indirect variables that hold Zamazenta-C's bulk and offensive capabilities back make Zamazenta-C counterplay much more feasible than what is suggested otherwise by virtue of its raw attributes. Its typing isn't ideal defensively, its reliance on Howl and specific coverage options for wallbreaking (including Close Combat's defense drops) and cleaning make revenge killing it nowhere near as tall of an order as it looks, and most of all, chipping it down and ultimately overwhelming it is just not at all difficult to do.
I completely and wholly understand the position of pro-ban, but I personally feel as though it's imperative to look at how it fares in execution as opposed to solely looking at what it
could do. Of course, I'm not saying this is what pro-ban is doing, but this perspective is mostly how I've been looking at Zamazenta-C, and is one that ultimately makes me feel as though despite what it seems at a glance, all of its shortcomings really add up in a vacuum, and the ways it can be enabled require good positioning and for prior conditions to be fulfilled, which is the case with any strong Pokemon in my eyes.
If any of you have any further questions on my stance regarding Zamazenta-C, feel free to PM me, and I will be more than happy to respond!