Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

[ChrisSweeper]

The point is that under normal circumstances these moves are not viable, however the fact that you would use otherwise suboptimal moves in order to deal with a mechanic that can not otherwise be easily dealt with shows how overcentralizing dynamax is.

At the risk of going around in circles, you need to think about what you mean with "normal circumstances" and "suboptimal". Normal has changed and this could have been said about any other situational move the generation they became useful.

The argument essentially reads "Dynamax is broken because I need to do new things because of it".

I'm not actually invested in using these specific moves and they may still be bad, I just brought them up as an option amongst other viable options.

I'm actually just using Bounce to get at Max Airstream, but I've had Bounce and Phantom Force in particular used effectivly against me - because switching out while Dynamaxed isn't ideal!

 

[DrPumpkinz]

At the risk of going around in circles, you need to think about what you mean with "normal circumstances" and "suboptimal". Normal has changed and this could have been said about any other situational move the generation they became useful.

The argument essentially reads "Dynamax is broken because I need to do new things because of it".

The issue is that even if Dynamaxing is common, I still wouldn't call it "normal circumstances" because it only lasts for three turns. As peng noted, 6v6 games are much longer than 3v3 games, so three turns is proportionally even smaller.

 

[Darvin]

So I suppose I'll give my 2 cents about the meta and dynamax

I'm kinda torn on dynamax, because it really isn't nearly as broken as I was anticipating. Although I do feel that Ditto is the glue holding together a lot of team compositions, there is definite counterplay here and even the most powerful sweepers have answers. If this were as far as dynamax went, I'd feel it behooves us to fully explore that meta and see how it feels after a few bans of the most egregious threats. But there's another way to use dynamax, one that's causing far more problems in my view. What pushes dynamax over the edge is the interaction with choice items. When using dynamax to sweep there's an inherent predictability to it, involving the weakening of checks and often a turn of setup. With choice-locked pokemon dynamax is spontaneous and arbitrary. It's simply a button that allows you to say "nope" if your opponent has you in a disadvantaged position. It allows for extremely reckless play with choice-locked pokemon and punishes players for trying to take advantage of those reckless plays, often leading to paranoid switches to avoid a dynamax that may or may not be coming. This problem is true for almost all scarfers, it's an inherent issue with the mechanic itself and cannot be pinned on specific pokemon.

While I feel that dynamax sweepers might be dealt with via bans, I don't feel that's an option for the scarf problem. The issue is the interaction itself, and so long as there is a viable scarfer in the tier this unhealthy dynamic will exist. Moreover, many of those scarfers are themselves the answer to those dynamax sweepers; Ditto is simultaneously the single greatest check to dynamax, as well as one of its most egregious abusers. Banning Ditto would likely be untenable, or at very minimum would precipitate a huge number of downstream bans. For this reason I don't think individual pokemon bans can fix this problem.

I notice there has been some discussion of complex clauses, and I feel that if we're going down that path then the most sensible one would be a choice-dynamax-clause: you cannot dynamax or gigantimax a pokemon that is holding a choice item. While I personally disagree with complex clauses and feel dynamax should either be allowed or banned, if a complex clause is to be considered then I feel that's the most sensible one. It's a generic rule that removes the most volatile form of dynamaxing, and it's easy to understand and communicate the rationale for it.

Beyond dynamax itself, the meta just feels too high-powered right now. There's no single threat that I can put my fingers on, although Darm-G is certainly the most common on ladder; there's also things like ghosts running rampant since there's no pursuit to stop them and few viable resists/immunities, Nasty Plot's newfound distribution creating a lot of nasty surprises, and new threats we've been sleeping on like Dracovish turning up on a fairly regular basis. I kinda feel like this would still be a hyper-offensive mess even without dynamax.

If there's one thing I'd like to say in closing, it's that I feel the time has come for some tiering decisions. If the council isn't ready to ban dynamax, then it's time to ban some pokemon. While I can understand the hesitation given that no single threat is responsible for the current quagmire, I feel that if we're giving dynamax a chance that we need to actually explore what that meta might look like. That means making some bans, and seeing if the situation improves. If it does improve then maybe dynamax is salvageable. Maybe even the choice lock problem isn't intractible and can be played around in a lower-powered meta. If the situation doesn't imrpove, then that gives much stronger justification for an eventual ban.

 

[kirigherkins]

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 780-924 (117.8 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Don't you need to hit 200% to OHKO a dmax mon? Unless you intend to let dmax time out, at which point it'll probably have accumulated more speed boosts. I remember some calcs earlier in thread pointing out that Rotom-W can't even OHKO dmax Gyara because the HP bloat is so obscene, even if it doesn't get instantly deleted by Whip.

My max HP Togekiss has (barely) survived super-effective hits while below 50% purely because she dmaxed, and she's even better behind screens. It's no wonder Game Freak put so many nukes like Dracovish and G-Darm in the game...presumably to fix a problem of their own creation. Surely this has to be the biggest power-creep in series history — I didn't think they'd be able to outdo mega-evos in that regard, but they managed it! Well done GF.

Edit: I can't read, specs Jolteon does indeed OHKO dmax Gyara

 

[Negative Charge]

<- leaked photo of gyarados and the meta rn

I have come full circle on Dynamax when my Specs Dragapult failed to KO a Dynamax Gyarados with Tbolt. It's super wack, it's not fun and I don't think many people are having a good time. Did I get outskilled? I have a faster mon with a 4x SE Specs coverage move... against a presumably uninvested offensive sweeper. Does every team need to run ditto? The mechanic is balanced for Doubles (where double targeting can mitigate the dynamax HP boost), it just sucks to play against in OU.

 

[MrHands]

Don't you need to hit 200% to OHKO a dmax mon? Unless you intend to let dmax time out, at which point it'll probably have accumulated more speed boosts. I remember some calcs earlier in thread pointing out that Rotom-W can't even OHKO dmax Gyara because the HP bloat is so obscene, even if it doesn't get instantly deleted by Whip.

I'm almost certain that calc is on a Dynamax Gyarados. Specs STAB 4x effective move typically approach 200% damage, including on Gyarados.

 

[Cuddly]

Banning Dynamax would be a mistake.

The game has to be recognisable as the one on the Switch, diverging from the official metagame too much is going to cut off the supply of new players arriving here for strategy advice. There's already a lot of jargon here without banning major game mechanics, you don't want the guides here being useless for console play. In a way it really doesn't matter what you guys think, this is the game for this generation.

I've been playing it online and there are lots of counter strategies being developed. For example stalling it with methods from Sturdy/Focus Sash to Protect/King's Sheild to Fly/Dig/Dive. At the very least that needs to play out before considering a ban.

I think a lot of people (including me) have been using the same strategies and pokemon for years, those who are the most upset by Dexit or Dynamax just don't want to change tactics they have mastered. That's the road to stagnation.

The one thing is that Dynamax had to go hand in hand with Dexit, I don't think there should be a metagame with Dynamaxed Pokemon unavailable in Sword/Sheild. Maybe this is causing some frustration as those Pokemon haven't been designed for Dynamax.

I think some of the tiers should be consolidated and renamed. Have a "Unrestricted" tier which is basically Ubers with no Dexit no Dynamax. Have a "Console" tier which is the Switch ladder rules (Dexit, Dynamax allowed, no legendaries or Gigantamax) and is basically OU. Have a "Little Cup" tier which is no Dexit no Dynamax basically UU and has your bans and suspect testing etc. Hopefully that makes everyone happy.

1. Why should we care about “diverging” too much and have it be “recognisable as the one on the Switch”?
People can freely play VGC and Battle Spots, even on our simulators, as well as AG. We also historically had analysis for prominent Pokemon in all 3 of those formats.
We care more about our own meta, which people are free to play or not play, more so than appealing to a niche group of people.
2. Your counter plays are very ineffective at stopping Dynamaxing, much less the remaining parts of the meta game.
Protect/King’s Shield doesn’t fully protect you, and they still get the same boosts as they would without protecting.
Sturdy is limited to a few Pokemon and both it/FS can be broken with Stealth Rock or Ice/Rock Max moves.
And also Dig/Fly are trash moves without Z-crystals/Dynamaxing.
You also have to understand that the most broken part of Dynamaxing is the snowball effect, where its very easy for sweepers to just clean up your team with no thought put into it. That and being used as braindead comeback mechanic where your last Pokemon is impossible to kill as you counter sweep your opponent with ease.
3. Even if banning Dynamaxing was about “ugh I don’t want to change my strategy”, the only reliable strategy against them is Ditto, which isn’t even universal since Hawlucha exists and Ditto doesn’t copy the Unburden Boost.
It’s no secret that the Meta is now HO with Gyara, Hawlucha, Exca, Darm-G, Ditto, and something extra. This is all thanks to Dynamaxing since its the counterplay isn’t guaranteed (such as Ditto vs Hawlucha) or isn’t actually counterplay (such as protect spam).
5. I have played National Dex OU far more than regular OU, and while it’s more manageable over there, it still is really stupid broken. Even with Mega Evolutions, Exclusive Z-moves, and more counters to the abusers, you still get can easily be swept by the snowballing effects and have the same braindead comebacks as the limited dex is, but at least you get bandaids like Mega Aggron, Mega Slowbro, and Chansey.
6. Speaking of which, the switch games can already be defined as the “generation with most of your options gutted” in competitive, since it’s just like that in the story mode and has as much respect to these shitty games as GameFreak has for its fans.

 

[GJLimeade]

I think one of the most unhealthy aspects of this meta is the sheer number of games where winning a single speed tie is legitimately your best/only win con. I've seen/had so many matches where whoever wins the coin flip between Dynamaxed Gyarados and Dynamaxed Ditto literally just wins on the spot. The fact that Gyarados doesn't even really require any team support to just come in, Dyna, and start a sweep just makes it even worse because of how ridiculously easy it is to force this situation.

Still, I wholeheartedly agree with the notion that being able to switch up moves with choiced mons is by far the most broken mechanic of dynamaxing. If by some off-chance Nintendo were to patch this in a version update or something then I might consider keeping it in, but right now I'm leaning towards dynamaxing being way too busted for its own good.

 

[Alstone]

Dynamaxing is pretty annoying. I was facing a Eiscue with a Dynamaxed Polteaguist without breaking it's Ice Face yet and it knocked off 100% of it's HP. If I was my opponent, I would have been quite frustrated. It's a great way to keep your opponent on his/her toes though, as you can do it for surprising knock outs OR save a defensive pokemon on your team from getting knocked out from an attack that would normally end it.

The Dittos are very superior to Sword & Shield as well by revenging back what the pokemon it's copied by either Dynamaxing on it or just having it hold the Choice Scarf item to be faster. I think it's pretty fun however

 

[kirigherkins]

correction

Damn u right son, I was only looking at percentages and not the HP numbers; a regular Gyara will evidently not have 780-924 HP. Hopefully the eventual honkalculator update will eradicate all confusion for the numerically-challenged...

In other news, I've been having great success with Taunt/Screens/T-wave Grimmsnarl, especially as a lead. I've seen many people lead with G-Darm, Dragapult or even Dracovish, and Grimmsnarl is a good pick against them all. G-Darm leads like to U-Turn, letting Grimmsnarl paralyze them instantly and take the edge off that particular threat. Max HP/Def Grimm gets chunked by U-Turn but it's not a grave amount of damage; if you'd rather mitigate, Reflect softens the U-Turn to about 20-30%. Dracovish is much weaker without the Fishious Rend bonus, and paralyzing Dragapult on turn one really neuters one of its biggest strengths.
It's very good against Rotom-W leads as well, even though they can't be para'd obviously. Unless it runs Trick Scarf, which is just about the most disastrous thing to happen to him.

Essentially, leading with support Grimmsnarl means free real estate in some very useful matchups and I highly recommend it.

 

[ChrisSweeper]

It's weird, low on the Switch ladder my Gyarados could easily sweep entire teams like you guys describe but now I'm approaching the top it's constantly walled by Corviknight and choice specs special Dragapult is too weak to beat it with Thunderbolt.

So I'm now thinking about how to switch up my strategy since Dragapult isn't what I hoped. Maybe I just need a Moxie Gyarados instead of Intimidate, but Intimidate has been great forcing switches and letting me set up Dragon Dance.

 

[ab15]

Dynamaxing does change how the game is played and how you build teams, but for now I dont think it should be banned.

Many things change from game to game, Team Preview, Stealth Rocks,weather wars, and crazy held items have all changed the game, all to arguably the same degree (though I would argue Stealth Rocks has done so the most). So changing the game is not enough of a reason to ban something [Even though you could argue one game is "better" than another- I miss the no team preview and weather wars, but thats not relevant]

As for Gyarados, if it is the strongest mon in the meta then I would rather have it than some other mon. Its not as durable as it seems and from my experience manageable. It is waaayyy less annoying to deal with than Lando-T. I am so glad Lando T is no in the game. idc if lando did not sweep as much as current gyra, but it was so spamable that it was harder to make a team that would be better without it.

For now I could list many things I think should be removed from the game, most are luck based like the actual RANDOM number built in to the damage output formula or frekin serene grace togekiss before we ban Dynamaxing.

With the exclusion of so many pokemon, I don't think we should remove the unique mechanic of this gen so quickly.

 

[Monsoon117]

Dynamaxing does change how the game is played and how you build teams, but for now I dont think it should be banned.

Many things change from game to game, Team Preview, Stealth Rocks,weather wars, and crazy held items have all changed the game, all to arguably the same degree (though I would argue Stealth Rocks has done so the most). So changing the game is not enough of a reason to ban something [Even though you could argue one game is "better" than another- I miss the no team preview and weather wars, but thats not relevant]

As for Gyarados, if it is the strongest mon in the meta then I would rather have it than some other mon. Its not as durable as it seems and from my experience manageable. It is waaayyy less annoying to deal with than Lando-T. I am so glad Lando T is no in the game. idc if lando did not sweep as much as current gyra, but it was so spamable that it was harder to make a team that would be better without it.

For now I could list many things I think should be removed from the game, most are luck based like the actual RANDOM number built in to the damage output formula or frekin serene grace togekiss before we ban Dynamaxing.

With the exclusion of so many pokemon, I don't think we should remove the unique mechanic of this gen so quickly.

To me, the removal of dynamax at this point just feels so slow. I don't know, maybe it's because the meta formed so quickly. To me, this feels overcentralized and isn't really fun to play at this point. Teambuilding, something I usually enjoy, is so constrained that I need a ditto, dynamax abuser, and a water immunity before the team can function at all. That sucks to build around as three of my team slots are decided before I can even get started. Of course I can attempt to use some unusual mons, but the thing is, any 'unusual' mon just gets throttled by 99% of the dynamax abusers. It puts me at such a disadvantage that I just say 'fuck it' and use the standard meta.

Comparing Lando and Gyarados just seems off here. I don't understand the comparison. I really don't. Gyarados is a relentless, warping meta presence that forces niche counter sets to the very tip top of usage in OU. Lando required ice coverage and a ground immunity, which most teams need regardless of lando's presence. To compare them just seems like voicing a bias that isn't relevant here. I get not liking Lando since he was on so many teams, but you never get 6oed because you didn't pack a specific lando counter on your team. Teams without ditto though? They are gyara food if the gyara user is even halfway competent.

And to me, the exclusion of extra pokemon is EXACTLY why we should ban dynamax. Some mons have no answers, and you get destroyed by them unless you immediately make suicidal plays. EG, you have an excadrill kill a mon, then they switch in lucha. I can only hit with iron head, and if he SD's, I just lose immediately. He'll be too bulky after dynamaxing, and therefore I need to weaken him. So I use iron head because I don't want him to auto win. Instead of SDing, he close combats and I lost a mon. It's like I had no good options there unless I had a galarian corsola on my team. I'd be fine with that if my opponent set the situation up through clever play, but it's not a big brain play at all. It's that Hawlucha is so dominant that I am forced to do suboptimal plays each time he comes out so that I don't auto lose.

Obviously I'm frustrated at this point, so I think I'll just play some other meta until this issue is resolved. For now, I'm finding this meta unplayable with all the Dracovish, Lucha, Gara, Drill, and dozens of other threats running around.

 

[kirigherkins]

Dragapult isn't what I hoped.

I've also been pretty disappointed by (Specs) Dragapult offensively, 100 SpA just doesn't cut it in modern Pokémon, and I've never been a fan of being Choice-locked. However, I spied the following set from suigin in the Dragapult thread, and it's intriguing.

Dragapult @ Light Clay
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- U-turn

It fills extra role compression as a spinblocker and a Toxtricity 'wall' too, something that gives Grimmsnarl (and half the meta) a lot of trouble. I can't run calcs atm but I'm excited to hit the drawing board with this set and see what damage it's able to take with a defensive spread. Dragapult has Twave & WoW to choose from as well, which is juicy.
One thing I'd really, really like to know is if Infiltrator applies to status moves as well as damaging attacks. That sounds too good to be true, though, so I doubt it. At any rate, I could see Infiltrator Breaking Swipe/Scald having some utility. Scalding something through a Substitute sounds like exactly the kind of devilry that gets me up in the morning.

 

[Cuddly]

To me, the removal of dynamax at this point just feels so slow. I don't know, maybe it's because the meta formed so quickly. To me, this feels overcentralized and isn't really fun to play at this point. Teambuilding, something I usually enjoy, is so constrained that I need a ditto, dynamax abuser, and a water immunity before the team can function at all. That sucks to build around as three of my team slots are decided before I can even get started. Of course I can attempt to use some unusual mons, but the thing is, any 'unusual' mon just gets throttled by 99% of the dynamax abusers. It puts me at such a disadvantage that I just say 'fuck it' and use the standard meta.

Comparing Lando and Gyarados just seems off here. I don't understand the comparison. I really don't. Gyarados is a relentless, warping meta presence that forces niche counter sets to the very tip top of usage in OU. Lando required ice coverage and a ground immunity, which most teams need regardless of lando's presence. To compare them just seems like voicing a bias that isn't relevant here. I get not liking Lando since he was on so many teams, but you never get 6oed because you didn't pack a specific lando counter on your team. Teams without ditto though? They are gyara food if the gyara user is even halfway competent.

And to me, the exclusion of extra pokemon is EXACTLY why we should ban dynamax. Some mons have no answers, and you get destroyed by them unless you immediately make suicidal plays. EG, you have an excadrill kill a mon, then they switch in lucha. I can only hit with iron head, and if he SD's, I just lose immediately. He'll be too bulky after dynamaxing, and therefore I need to weaken him. So I use iron head because I don't want him to auto win. Instead of SDing, he close combats and I lost a mon. It's like I had no good options there unless I had a galarian corsola on my team. I'd be fine with that if my opponent set the situation up through clever play, but it's not a big brain play at all. It's that Hawlucha is so dominant that I am forced to do suboptimal plays each time he comes out so that I don't auto lose.

Obviously I'm frustrated at this point, so I think I'll just play some other meta until this issue is resolved. For now, I'm finding this meta unplayable with all the Dracovish, Lucha, Gara, Drill, and dozens of other threats running around.

I would say it feels slow since Stag was already banned and Dynamaxing was banned in LC already.
Not saying it's more broken than Stag, although 1 could argue that, but it is also apparent that Dynamax is broken with most of the opposition either being too scared to ban because it's this gen's gimmick or are hopeful or something else.

It's seriously a pain having to wait so long for Dynamaxing to finally be banned.

 

[TheRuffletKid]

When will the council's decision towards Dynamax be decided anyways? It's already been quite a while since the argument started.

 

[lilyhollow]

It's seriously a pain having to wait so long for Dynamaxing to finally be banned.

Wait... hasn't it been like ten days?

I don't really have a horse in this race but this is a really major mechanic. It's not really something that should be rushed. I think it's healthiest to just enjoy the bullshit while it lasts, or if you can't enjoy it for ten days then yeah, move on to something else for a while or something, but to expect a ban for a core mechanic within less than two weeks of a totally new generation is a little bit entitled.

 

[TheRuffletKid]

Wait... hasn't it been like ten days?

I don't really have a horse in this race but this is a really major mechanic. It's not really something that should be rushed. I think it's healthiest to just enjoy the bullshit while it lasts, or if you can't enjoy it for ten days then yeah, move on to something else for a while or something, but to expect a ban for a core mechanic within less than two weeks of a totally new generation is a little bit entitled.

It's not entitlement if the mechanic is so full-blown and busted throughout the entire meta, affecting everyone and the definition of 'skillful play' in the process.

 

[Will-0-Whisper]

dynamaxing seams rlly good but it shoudent be band because u can just stall it out and use unaware mons to counter the stat boost thingy

 

[Cuddly]

Wait... hasn't it been like ten days?

I don't really have a horse in this race but this is a really major mechanic. It's not really something that should be rushed. I think it's healthiest to just enjoy the bullshit while it lasts, or if you can't enjoy it for ten days then yeah, move on to something else for a while or something, but to expect a ban for a core mechanic within less than two weeks of a totally new generation is a little bit entitled.

10 days too many imo. I played the beta version on Nexus and even back then it was super apparent that it was way to much for OU, even if it was bolstered by Kyurem-B.

 

[Robot7620]

It's not entitlement if the mechanic is so full-blown and busted throughout the entire meta, affecting everyone and the definition of 'skillful play' in the process.

Many were rooting for weather to be banned in Gen 5 yet we were able to cope with it and it's a major part rn, it hasn't been 2 weeks, much less a whole month since Gen 8 has released.
I'd say give it a time, banning a whole mechanic is rather major and definitely shouldn't be rushed.
Plus, being full-blown and busted is simply an opinion.
Edit: On a different note, rain's looking pretty good this gen. I do feel like too much pressure is placed on Ditto and Ferro as the defensive backbone though. But it's fun to see rain is no longer conformed to the same 5 + another and got some new toys to play with

 

[ausma]

Many were rooting for weather to be banned in Gen 5 yet we were able to cope with it and it's a major part rn, it hasn't been 2 weeks, much less a whole month since Gen 8 has released.
I'd say give it a time, banning a whole mechanic is rather major and definitely shouldn't be rushed.
Plus, being full-blown and busted is simply an opinion.
Edit: On a different note, rain's looking pretty good this gen. I do feel like too much pressure is placed on Ditto and Ferro as the defensive backbone though. But it's fun to see rain is no longer conformed to the same 5 + another and got some new toys to play with

I'm not gonna lie, I don't think it's just rain; I think it's all weather archetypes as a whole. Max Flare, Hailstorm, Rockfall, and Geyser generating weather in their own right is an outlet that provides a ton of teambuilding options in of itself simply because you can insert respective moves that can create said weather easily as coverage options at the minimum, and even capitalize on it after depending on what Pokemon you Dynamax. Not being restricted to a common core to make use of what weather you can generate and having flexibility with what 'mons you use with Dynamax thanks to the aforementioned Max moves is huge for teambuilding and mixing up what would otherwise be a common core makes weather much more interesting.

Make no mistake, though, some mons are better than others when it comes to weather, and it's shown through what cores have rose on the ladder (Dracovish + Pelipper, Excadrill + Tyranitar, for instance). But, regardless, it's really nice to see there are more viable options. Assuming we keep Gigantamax (maybe Dynamax, who knows), I'm curious to see how weather develops in the meta.

 

[Volarion]

The point is that under normal circumstances these moves are not viable, however the fact that you would use otherwise suboptimal moves in order to deal with a mechanic that can not otherwise be easily dealt with shows how overcentralizing dynamax is.

I disagree completely. People play on Smogon metagames to play Smogon rulesets. If they want to play with dynamaxing then they can do so on cartridge, in AG or in a custom game. Smogon's goal is not and has never been to appease the masses, but to make the most competitive game as possible. If people don't like that, there are plenty of other ways to play Pokemon.

First of all, the original comment was exactly right -- if you make this so different from the original that it's nearly unrecognizable, Smogon will eventually die off as the number of players looking to make their way into truly competitive Pokemon gradually decrease. Though it may not be noted, Smogon does optimize for being faithful to the game -- why else would have limits on what you can and can't change? Smogon OU pokemon is pretty competitive, but why have crits? Why have 95% accuracy moves? This game is fundamentally not designed to be competitive, and Smogon rules have got it into a competitively playable state while still being faithful to the core mechanics and design of the base material. It was never meant to be and never will be chess.

 

[Pyr1Te]

I was on board for the ban Dynamax train going in, but after playing for a while during classes today I realized I love it. It almost entirely removes stallmons being viable. I enjoy the "haha you are dead now" than the "haha you cant do anything" of gen 7. We know that people will continue to play gen 7 and older generations they like. And personally I enjoy how fast paced gen 8 OU is right now. It's a breath of fresh air. even fishious rend and Corsola I was able to get around because of dynamaxing. And when I lost to it I felt I had made mistakes to let it win, or needed to adjust my team more. The main thing I like about the current meta is I don't see as much stalling. Which I hated about gen 7. Walls cant really beat Dynamax pokemon, and if you try to wall them out the dynamaxed mon gets to set up to sweep.

Basically, have a tier without Dynamaxing and that would be fine, but don't remove it entirely because I find it really fun and i'm sure i'm not alone. There should be a tier that bans the legendaries but still keeps Dynamax and everything else.

 

[Finchinator]

Almost definitely has been discussed already, but I just want to say that despite lacking its hidden ability that is a Protean clone, Cinderace is still very viable and even quite good. Court Change is a very practical move that can sometimes sway games in your favor, especially when you lack other removal, and the Heavy-Duty Boots also work wonders as it is very vulnerable to hazards otherwise. While it is walled by Toxapex and Jellicent, it is fast and able to hit most other things hard with Fire + Fighting coverage coupled with U-turn to let it be a pivot. Admiteddly it lacks bulk to be well-rounded, but it is a great offensive pivot with hazard-oriented techs up its sleeve and a decent amount of firepower. For reference, this is the set I am using on it rn.

As for Dynamaxing, I discuss more here and I am really not trying to have this thread completely taken over with discussion of it in all honesty, but while we lack a timeline at this exact moment, you should expect some tiering action (i.e: a suspect) in the relatively near future.