Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Roxanne

Ralts, Wingull, Torchic level 13, Slakoth level 14

Ralts: Gets 2HKOed by any of the Rock attacks, but is capable of using their poor accuracy against them. By using one Double Team against each Geodude and having them either miss Rock Tomb/Throw or use Defense Curl you can 2HKO with Confusion and get to Nosepass with +2 evasion. As mentioned in the Poochyena write up, Nosepass loves to spam Harden (and Block) which allows you to comfortably reduce it to -6 Attack and boost yourself to +6 evasion, at which point you can Confusion your way to victory (5HKO in a vacuum, 11HKO with Oran Berry and two Potions). Ran this a couple times and its pretty reliable as long as you can avoid getting hit on the first turn. Might need to use a Potion or Oran Berry of your own to support in some instances. Pretty decent solo effort.

Wingull: OHKOs both Geodudes with Water Gun, but has no game plan against Nosepass other than Supersonic as Rock Tomb OHKOs. Good stuff.

Torchic: see Ralts except you don't have Double Team to help you dodge stuff. Can't win this matchup unless you're already a Combusken

Slakoth: Give it an X Defend and watch it slooooowly 1v1 the first Geodude. Yawn and Slack Off give it enough time to actually outlast the Rock attacks while chipping patiently away with Scratch. Aside from that can pop in and Yawn/Encore Nosepass if needed. Considering its a Truant Normal type, not too shabby.

Brawly

Wingull is level 16, Ralts/Torchic/Slakoth are level 15

Wingull: 3HKOs Machop with Wing Attack, Machop can kill you if it gets lucky with crits, Meditite gets dumpstered because lolFocusPunch, you probably won't beat Makuhita because Vital Throw is strong and you only 3HKO at best with Bulk Up.

Ralts: donks Machop, donks Meditate (and maybe burns a Potion), mine 2HKOed Makuhita and its +1 Vital Throw could not KO back. Strong.

Torchic: 3HKOs Machop so depends on if it tries to Karate Chop you. lolMeditite. Makuhita OHKOs with Vital Throw at +0

Slakoth: no.

 

[Merritt]

please raise the Pokemon one level if that would make them evolve and dump all over brawly thanks it's not like Torchic is difficult to train

having a torchic at level 15 for brawly is exactly what I was trying to warn about with the underleveled due to early mon overload

 

[sumwun]

Giving Slakoth any experience before defeating Brawly probably wasn't a good idea. Raising Slakoth is a lot easier with the exp. share and the higher-level opponents around Slateport, and trying to raise it any earlier won't do much other than get other Pokemon underleveled. Also,

Is there a better option than Earthquake though? I figure it's a good choice to eliminate the Tentacool line spam and static abusers, but I cant really find other utility for it as it heavily overlaps with fire/fighting coverage, makes Blaziken helpless against Pelipper, and it's such a valuable TM. Return probably is a better choice.

You probably need earthquake to save whatever otherwise-trash desert Pokemon you end up with.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

please raise the Pokemon one level if that would make them evolve and dump all over brawly thanks it's not like Torchic is difficult to train

having a torchic at level 15 for brawly is exactly what I was trying to warn about with the underleveled due to early mon overload

i feel like you're being very defensive about a torchic that i'm not making any value judgements on

 

[Infernape2018]

Unrelated to anything but Shiny Wurmple!

Edit: Now a Shiny Cascoon!

YES

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

For the sake of not giving Merritt and aneurysm, I reran Brawly 11 times with a level 16 Combusken. In each battle I used Focus Energy turn 1 and then Double Kick as my primary weapon, Peck backing up as needed. I used a Super Potion only in situations where it made a meaningful difference to surviving future attacks. In these 11 fights, Combusken fainted to Machop 3 times, Makuhita 5 times, and was successful at sweeping 3 times. In each of the victories Combusken was able to sequence multiple crits close together to snatch a quick kill against Makuhita. In each of the losses to Makuhita, Combusken was either enable to crit, or unable to keep pace with the healing from Sitrus and/or healing potions, while being 2HKOed by +1 Vital Throw. In each of the losses against Machop, Combusken was either unable to crit Machop before it's boosted attacks KOed it or was subject to Karate Chop crits itself.

I consider Brawly to be a poor matchup for Torchic, as was always the expectation, albeit one where it can meaningfully contribute. I don't attribute much in the way of significant weight to early gym performance regardless except where things are unexpectedly dominant or unexpectedly able to contribute from poor situations.

Giving Slakoth any experience before defeating Brawly probably wasn't a good idea. Raising Slakoth is a lot easier with the exp. share and the higher-level opponents around Slateport, and trying to raise it any earlier won't do much other than get other Pokemon underleveled. Also, You probably need earthquake to save whatever otherwise-trash desert Pokemon you end up with.

I do not and never will agree with your methodology for raising Pokemon. I train something from the time I choose to acquire it, without exception. As it so happens, Slakoth was raised predominantly on wild Pokemon around Rustboro in preparation for Roxanne tests so no experience was neglected from others.


edit: anyone care to explain to me why I spent 20 minutes calculating the average value of Scratch vs Fury Swipes...(42.5 for Scratch, 50.948445 for Fury Swipes unless I did my match wrong, also why the hell am I doing combinatorics on crit damage at 1 AM...)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Wattson

Combusken is level 24, Vigoroth, Wingull, Kirlia are level 22. Vigoroth and Kirlia and Combusken are given Cheri Berries. A.N. I've chosen to teach Vigoroth Bulk Up and let Combusken learn it naturally, it's also possible for Combusken to know it for this fight.

Vigoroth: Vigoroth has pretty strong bulk for this point in the game. Spark from Voltorb and Shock Wave from Electrike are just 4HKOs by a hair, and Vigoroth takes only about 40% from a Voltorb Boom at +1 (Bulk Up). Taking the kill on Voltorb at +1 is preferable to avoid paralysis shenanigans, and then Electrike can be used as reasonably comfortable set up fodder with sme Soda Pops as it Howls beside you. I got super unlucky with multiple paralyses n the Fury Swipes against Electrike, but was still able to catch Magneton with an Encore against Sonicboom (Thunder Wave post-Cheri Berry was the target). At +6 it took 8 hits to KO the Magneton. Unfortunately Manectric cannot be beaten if Vigoroth is weakened as it takes far too much from Shock Wave, roughly 70% per hit. As a hit and run entry against Manectric, it does 10% damage per Fury Swipe at +0, capable of chunking a good amount given an assumed Howl or Thunder Wav. Pretty solid performance.

Kirlia: Voltorb can be used as set up for Kirlia. After a couple Calm Minds the Sparks and Shock Waves do meager damage while Double Team is used to insure against Selfdestruct. Cheri Berry means that when Spark procs paralysis, Synchronize leaves only Voltorb paralyzed. This takes 1-3 Potions depending on rng variance. At +6 Kirlia OHKOs Voltorb and Electrike, 2HKOs Magneton, and is just shy of the OHKO on Manectric while taking insignificant damage from their Shock Waves. With the caveat the Double Team is not deleted, Kirlia reaches level 21 for Calm Mind, and a Cheri Berry is equipped, this is a comfortable clean sweep for Kirlia. Excellent showing.

Combusken: Focus Energy into Double Kick (one crit) takes out Voltorb, half damage in return. Elektrike allows for a heal and a 2HKO with Ember (Double Kick doesn't OHKO and procs Static). Magneton is 1.5HKOed (3 hits) by Double Kick, Combusken will not outspeed if not paralyzed and takes 40% or so at level 24, generally winning if healthy and unparalyzed or if Magneton uses weird moves. Crit DK does ~45 to Manectric, individual hits ~20%, Shock Wave deals 40% in return to level 25 Combusken, pre-setup Focus Energy leans this in favour of Combusken if Manectric wastes turns Howling. Very strong performance. Reasonable to assume Bulk Up supplants Focus Energy if taught, same result vs Voltorb and Electrike but Magneton becomes an OHKO and Manectric performance is better, likely S performance under those conditions.

Wingull: No.

In a vacuum, Vigoroth gets a B, Combusken an A, Kirlia an S. Relative to the subset of Pokemon that can actually do stuff against Wattson, Vigoroth gets an A, Combusken gets an S, Kirlia an S.

Team Status Update: End of Early-game

Kirlia lv 23, Modest, Synchronize
55 / 19 / 28 / 45 / 30 / 30
Confusion, Shock Wave, Double Team, Calm Mind

Comments: Ralts babying period is overstated, its only two levels, really not a big deal. Confusion is sufficient to OHKO weaker enemies and 2HKO moderately bulky ones through the early game period, Psychic typing allows for good gym performances and Double Team allows for dominant ones. Early game weaknesses are severely overstated. Considering the primary argument against Ralts is its early game, so long as Kirlia can perform against Flannery (Norman is a permanent weakness), there's little reason not to elevate this to S alongside Alakazam.

Vigoroth lv 22, Quiet, Vital Spirit
71 / 47 / 46 / 37 / 29 / 45
Fury Swipes, Bulk Up, Slack Off, Encore

Comments: Slakoth required a more notable babying period than Ralts, from level 6 to approximately level 10. At this point Slakoth hit the point of being able to OHKO some frailer enemies to mitigate some of its abilities effect, while its physical bulk became more prominent when it couldn't. At evolution Vigoroth is one of the stronger and bulkier options for your level bound (hello Hariyama). An excellent support movepool allows it to surpass expectations in poor gym matchups, utility vs Roxanne is limited but physical bulk+Yawn+Slack Off allows for tertiary options, while Encore and Bulk Up provide a path to a potential sweep against Wattson. Surpassed very low expectations as a Slakoth, met moderate expectations as a Vigorith, reasonably meeting its current tier placement to this point.

Wingull lv 22, Modest, Keen Eye
50 / 18 / 24 / 37 / 24 / 48
Water Gun / Wing Attack / Steel Wing / Supersonic

Comments: Pretty bad. Water Gun 2HKOs a reasonable amount of neutral opponents but Wing Attack almost never 2HKOs, struggling to do so even against super effective enemies i.e. Machop. Will always move first, but is also incredibly frail. Shockingly vulnerable to basic things like a Skitty's Tail Whip+Doubleslap. Decent matchup vs Roxanne, taking out the Geodudes and chunking Nosepass before death, but autodies to Wattson and limited in capacity vs Brawly, can never beat Makuhita and cannot always beat Machop (FocusMeditite is irrelevant). Should be nowhere near B tier to this point, D or E tier based on the early game. Perhaps D tier, its reasonably comparable to Poochyena in terms of power/bulk. Pelipper will have to impress.

Combusken lv 24, Mild, Blaze
71 / 53 / 31 / 58 / 36 / 37
Double Kick / Ember / Rock Tomb / Focus Energy

Comments: Abstaining from anything meaningful for the time being. Fire type=inherent slow starter, not a particular hindrance aside from limited participation in first two gyms that can be mitigated with overleveling. Strong performance vs Wattson, only improved if taught Bulk Up. Key determining matchups are far down the round.


Edit: rolling right along, Flannery soon, only stopping to note that I elected to pick up Flamethrower for Combusken and Vigoroth will get Return once it surpasses Secret Power's power. I'm short about 30k more than usual due due a very haxy Rival 2.

 

[TheGamer7777]

You can get a second return in Pacifidlog Town. Strength should work find until then. Also, are you sure flamethrower is better than overheat? Blaziken should usually spam physical attacks, so the special attack drop won't hurt much.

Oh, and while you're here, I want to ask a question about Absol. If I want to use ice beam or thunderbolt, but not both, which one would be better? What should its other 3 moves be? I was thinking return, shadow ball, swords dance, and ice beam or thunderbolt.

Shadow Ball and Return leaves Absol "walled" on Steel Types. Steel resists Ice Beam so Tbolt is the better option here, the only exceptions to this is Steelix who is immune to Tbolt. But I don't think anyone uses Steelix in Gen 3 (Or at least not that I recall). So yeah Tbolt is the best option if you need to pick. Unless you want to hit something in particular really hard (For example using Ice Beam against Drake's Salamence to ignore the Attack drops).

 

[sumwun]

Shadow Ball and Return leaves Absol "walled" on Steel Types. Steel resists Ice Beam so Tbolt is the better option here, the only exceptions to this is Steelix who is immune to Tbolt. But I don't think anyone uses Steelix in Gen 3 (Or at least not that I recall). So yeah Tbolt is the best option if you need to pick. Unless you want to hit something in particular really hard (For example using Ice Beam against Drake's Salamence to ignore the Attack drops).

In Emerald, there is exactly one steel Pokemon on all of the gym leader, Elite 4, and champion teams after Absol becomes obtainable. That Pokemon is Skarmory, which doesn't resist ice. Being walled by steel Pokemon doesn't really hurt that much.

 

[TheGamer7777]

In Emerald, there is exactly one steel Pokemon on all of the gym leader, Elite 4, and champion teams after Absol becomes obtainable. That Pokemon is Skarmory, which doesn't resist ice. Being walled by steel Pokemon doesn't really hurt that much.

Lol well then why ask, just use Ice Beam. It hits Drake's team hard and can hit Altaria for super-effective damage. The only reason to carry Tbolt if your doing Emerald would be for mediocre damage against Wallace and Juan, but you'd really rather just boost against them.
Side note, obviously its worse than the Swords Dance set but has anyone run Calm Mind Absol? Ik its a waste of a lot of great TM's but its kind of a funny set to use.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Flannery

Kirlia is level 27, Combusken, Vigoroth, Pelipper are level 28 (how about that underleveling eh)

Kirlia: Needs 3 CMs to OHKO Camerupt, 4 CMs to OHKO Torkoal, Numel will use Sunny Day and can then 3HKO with Take Down or Overheat. Needs 1-2 Potions and then clean sweeps.

Combusken: At +2 and +3, tanked successive Magnitudes 8 and 9, Double Kick OHKOs Numel, Slugma, Camerupt from +3, does not 2HKO Torkoal because fat, but with the +3 defense you win with a 3HKO (assuming it doesn't crit you with Body Slam...). At +4 Torkoal is also 2HKOd. 1-2 Potions required depending on your luck with Magnitude rolls. An alternate path is to KO Numel at +1 and set up on Slugma, but this is about equally as efficient as Smog poisoning is inevitable. As a caveat, Bulk Up is mandatory for this gym, Combusken must be level 28 or have been taught the TM from Brawly earlier on for this performance to be possible.

Vigoroth: This is really unfair. Numel Overheat does 50% the first time, you have Slack Off, if it ever Sunny Days you have Encore, if it attacks you have Bulk Up, one of the freest +6 set up and sweeps there is.

Pelipper: OHKO Numel, OHKO Slugma, OHKO Camerupt, 3HKO Torkoal (10HKO after 2x Hyper Potion).


Summary: Ironically the Water type had the biggest struggle with the Fire Gym. Each of Vigoroth, Kirlia, and Combusken have very efficient ways to curbstomp this gym while Pelipper is extremely effective but hampered against Torkoal by the low base power of Water Gun and Sunny Day's use in this gym. Combusken and Pelipper are S tier performers against this gym, Kirlia and Vigoroth S+.

Norman

Kirlia is level 27, Lileep is level 24, Pelipper / Vigoroth / Combusken are level 29

Kirlia: Very bad. You can 2HKO Spinda if you're lucky and it Facade's twice and rolls on the lower end. It outspeeds you though so you lose most of the time if it Teeter Dances first or rolls high on the Facade. Can't beat anthing else. If you get really lucky you can spam Double Team and try for a sweep but you're likely going to get hit by something just on variance averages.

Pelipper: Not very good. Water Gun is a roll to 3 or 4HKO Spinda, same for Vigoroth, both do roughly 20% per hit barring Slash crits, Water Gun is a 4HKO on Linoone, it can 3HKO you back. Don't fight Slaking. You ahve 10 Protects, it takes you literally 10 Water Guns to be able to KO it after Sitrus and Norman will Potion you.

Vigoroth: S tier showing, Spinda is free set up since you have Slack Off, you can even Encore Teeter Dance while you're already confused. OHKOs on everything at +6 with Return, only possible threat is a low roll on Slaking into a Counter but this is heavily unlikely and can even be avoided by burning a turn since it can't sleep you with Yawn due to Vital Spirit.

Combusken: A+ to S range. Harder to set up than Vigoroth, Psybeam threatens you from Spinda a bit and Slash is a threat from Vigoroth so you can't set up as much or as comfortably as you'd like. Can still make +3 or so with a Potion and be comfortably healthy, and then can 2HKO Slaking with your +3 Double Kick, probably with a Potion for insurance.

Lileep: Only mentioning this becase Slaking for some reason refused to use Facade for like 12 straight turns and Lileep nearly solod it as a result at level 24 o_O

Summary: Is Slakoth underrated? It's early period is bad but lasts only up to Brawly and Vigoroth is excellent, clean sweeping Flannery and Norman (!) while putting in a strong showing against Wattson. If Slaking is able to dominate it's plausible this could be higher.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Winona

Gardevoir is level 31, Combusken and Vigoroth and Pelipper are level 32, Magneton is level 33, Lileep is level 36 (exp share etc)

Vigoroth: Swablu has Perish Song so you can only go +1 safely to start, Tropius comes next and Sunny Day Solar Beam is a threat, I Encored it into Solarbeam and went to +3 before KOing. Pelipper is garbage and let me go to +4 which was sufficient to 2HKO Skarmory and OHKO Altaria. Required a little finessing with Tropius but a pretty clean sweep performance.

Gardevoir: CM, sweep, etc, etc, gives zero fucks. Wants +3 to OHKO Altaria but +1 is completely fine, +1 EQ isn't a threat.

Combusken: 2HKOs Swablu with Strength, OHKOs Skarmory with Flamethrower, OHKOs Tropius with Flamethrower, 4HKOs Pelipper with Strength thus losing unless you can finesse two Bulk Ups vs Swablu, can't fight Altaria, isn't strong enough and Aerial Ace+DD=death. 3/5 aint bad.

Pelipper: 2HKOs Swablu with whatever, OHKOs Tropius with Ice Beam, 3HKOs enemy Pelipper with Ice Beam, 2HKOs Skarmory with Surf, 2HKOs Altaria with Ice Beam. Very good showing.

Magneton: donks Swablu, donks Skarmory, donks Pelipper, donks Tropius, Altaria has Earthquake. 'nuff said.

Lileep: 3HKOs Swablu, can't beat Skarmory, can beat Altaria with Toxic+Ingrain, can beat Tropius with Toxic+Ingrain+Sludge Bomb, same for Pelipper. I knew this from my no-evo run, Lileep is one of the best Toxic stallers.

Conclusions: Combusken has the weakest relative performance as is to be expected and even that is quite good. Vigoroth and Gardevoir destroy everything and Magneton and Pelipper run through most of Winona. Flying type bad.

End of Mid Game Team Status Update (Post-Magma/Aqua Hideouts)

Pelipper lv 37, Modest, Keen Eye
96 / 44 / 91 / 86 / 68 / 66
Surf, Ice Beam, Fly, Protect

Comments: Actually capable of doing things now that it has Surf, though still should definitely not be B. C appears reasonable to this point though the end-game will tell the tale.


Blaziken lv 38, Mild, Blaze
124 / 111 / 55 / 112 / 63 / 79
Flamethrower, Double Kick, Strength, Bulk Up

Comments: No complaints so far, everything as expected. Could make a case for A but S is probably more reasonable to this point. Breloom is better though, Breloom for S.


Gardevoir lv 36, Modest, Synchronize
105 / 51 / 66 / 116 / 91 / 69
Psychic / Thunderbolt / Double Team / Calm Mind

Comments: S tier, no question. Slow from levels 4-7 and levels 27-29, dominant the rest of the time. Double Team was planned as Reflect but has been very useful, tbd if I change that or not.


Slaking lv 36, Quiet, Truant
164 / 134 / 89 / 92 / 53 / 82
Return / Shadow Ball / Hyper Beam / Bulk Up

Comments: Can't give this a suggestion until I see Slaking peform but good lord those stats are goreous. Slakoth sucks but Vigoroth is fantastic, if Slaking maintains strength it should probably rise to C.


Magneton lv 37, Naive, Sturdy
85 / 61 / 86 / 104 / 57 / 69
Thunderbolt / Hyper Beam / Hidden Power Water (estimated BP in the 50s) / Thunder Wave

Comments: Too early to properly commentate on, but Electric STAB and Steel typing are as good as you'd expect.


Cradily lv 40, Hasty, Suction Cups
135 / 80 84 / 77 / 100 / 52
Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Secret Power / Toxic

Comments: The downside here is obvious and Exp. Share is nearly mandatory, this is known. Too early to grade since the most indicative performance chances are yet to come. Lileep is able to hold its own alright from about 32 and its pretty strong from about 36, arguably the best Toxic user in the game. Exceited to see Cradily perform after shoving some Rare Candies down its throat.

 

[TheUndeclared243]

I think torchick is a good starter because if u get to combusken before roxanne its really easy to kill all her pokemon, also you can get a shroomish in the forest and that can also beat roxanne by himself.

i think tate and liza are really hard if you start with blaziken though because they have psychic types that kill blaziken, but i found a cool idea that can beat them. if u catch a ralts and train it to a gardevoir before going to tate and liza, then it can use it's trace ability to copy their levitate and if u use the move imprison, then they can't use psychic. since they can't use psychic or earthquake against u, then you just win by using psychic.

also u can catch a sharpedo in the top of mossdeep town using a super fishing rod and that can also beat up tate and liza because they use pokemon that are weak to water and dark.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Tate and Liza

Same deal as last time, will run as many pairings as I can until there's a clear picture of what something is capable of. Blaziken and Magneton are level 42, Cradily, Pelipper, Slaking, and Gardevoir are level 40.

Magneton: Not going to bother running this, you wall and beat Xatu and you beat Lunatone from flat but can't fight Solrock or Claydol. Straightforward. Slightly below average just because it will take OHKOs from its threats instead of 2HKOs.

Cradily+Pelipper: Xatu is scary but Pelipper Ice Beam does a strong chunk, Claydol can hurt a bit but goes down quickly. Cradily is generally pretty strong against the three weak to Giga Drain, they can't threaten it too much, but it does want some support against Xatu.

Cradily+Gardevoir: Claydol Earthquake huts a lot more here but Gardevoir can still 2HKO Xatu right quick while Cradiy targets Claydol. This is a pretty good trio with Pelipper tbh.

Cradily+Blaziken: Blaziken is able to tank one Earthquake after spread penalty and Flamethrower+Giga Drain takes out Claydol. Nothing more to be done with this pairing though since Xatu can't be managed and Lunatone won't go down to a Double Kick+Giga Drain.

Cradily+Slaking: Shadow Ball does 80% or so to Claydol leaving Cradily to clean up easily. Shadow Ball flat OHKOs Xatu while outspeeding. Shadow Ball does 95% to Lunatone, 80% to Solrock. Pretty good pairing since Slaking is a nuke and Cradily cleans up well. Only negative is Slaking's SDef is its weakest point so it will fall to Psychics if focus fired.

Slaking+Pelipper: This is really unfair. Slaking nuke with Surf support just destroys Tate and Liza. Even Lunatone Hypnosis only goes so far. As before, the only way this pairing doesn't sweep is Slaking getting focus fired by Psychics.

Slaking+Blaziken: Blaziken is deadweight unfortunately, follows up Slaking to take out Claydol but can't do anything else here. Did give Magneton a cameo though, that was nice.

Slaking+Gardevoir: Shadow Ball+Psychic took out Claydol, Gardevoir took out Solrock, Slaking took out Xatu, they both took out Lunatone, Slaking tanked a bunch. Two beasts.

Gardevoir+Blaziken: Blaziken? More like BlaziCANT. Blaze died immediately and this turned into the Magneton show, HP Water was enough to finish Claydol after Flamethrower and then it dropped Thunderbolt bombs, did very well.

Gardevoir+Pelipper: Bit of an awkward pairing, reasonably effective offensively but not enough nukes to claim kills which lets Earthquake do more than you'd want it to. Both show well enough here.

Pelipper+Blaziken: Blaze dies etc, etc.

Summaries:

Magneton: C is very fair. You can put in work but you can't be in against Claydol and Solrock is a threat.

Slaking: Hard not to place this as S, could maybe argue it for A. Truant is a thing and you're weak to Psychic focus fires, but you have no downsides aside from that. Shadow Ball rangers from instant murder to free kill enabler and you take next to nothing from Earthquakes. Just beastly tbh.

Gardevoir: B seems good here I think. You don't want to take Earthquakes but you will live multiple and you beat everything else straight up while immediately threatening Xatu even as it CMs. Can't carry the matchup solo like Slakng can, but a highly effective second.

Pelipper: B here too for the same reason as Gardevoir, can't carry on your own but a very effective second. Similar to Whiscash from my last run, Surf with Earthquake resistance makes for a good matchup here.

Cradily: C I think, you can't really do much to Xatu but your Giga Drains are strong against Claydol and the rocks, limited by your PP cap. A good second, but noticeably worse than Gardevoir or Pelipper.

Blaziken: F, not that this comes as a surprise to anyone. Flamethrower as a focus fire against Claydol is the most you can do before dying. C'est la vie.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Juan

Magneton, Slaking, Pelipper, Blaziken are level 42; Gardevoir is level 43; Cradily is level 44

Magneton: Murder Luvdisc, take 20% back. Can't fight Whiscash. Murder Sealeo. Murder Crawdaunt. Runs about to a draw with Kingdra, Water Pulse and Thunderbolt are both rolls to 2HKO, it has Double Team, you have Thunder Wave. Rounds out to about a B+ performance.

Slaking: Murder Luvdisc. Return is a roll to OHKO Whiscash, Earthquake is less than 20% if you miss. Return 2HKOs Sealeo, Hyper Beam OHKO, Aurora Beam does the same amount as Whiscash EQ. The nice thing about Truant is you have a designated healing turn. See previous for Crawdaunt except you use Hyper Beam because Crabhammer hurts more. Truant vs Kingdra turn 1, OHKO with Hyper Beam. You clean sweep *through Truant* with one Potion use. Slaking is ridiculous. Has to be an S tier performance yeah?

Pelipper: Luvdisc soloed me :/ - Fly is a 3HKO and Attract+Confusion is rough to hit through. Pelipper smacks Whiscash even with Amnesia as it likes to help you with Rain Dance. You lose to Sealeo's Aurora Beam though, unless you have the Rain boost going. Fly is a 5HKO vs Crawdaunt which means you just take a bunch of damage since Crawdaunt's moveset blows. You can never do enough damage to break Kingdra's Rest, especially with evasion boosts. D tier showing, and that only because Crawdaunt sucks.

Blaziken: A showing. You can get a Bulk Up vs Luvdisc most of the time, though occasionally it will RNG you, and then you beat the first four with boosted Brick Breaks, but Kingdra outspeeds and smashes you with Water Pulse.

Gardevoir: Luvdisc is zero threat, even its confusion. Went to +3, clean swept. S tier. Checked it again, +2 clean sweeps. +1 just misses the KO on Whiscash and Kingdra.

Cradily: Giga Drain OHKOs Luvdisc. 2HKOs Sealeo, you heal off most of the damage Aurora Beam does. You lose to Kingdra hard. Giga Drain OHKOs Whiscash. 2HKOs Crawdaunt. B+ showing.

Pre-E4 Team Status, post 3 level grind

Pelipper lv 47
122 / 56 / 115 / 110 / 88 / 86
Surf, Fly, Ice Beam, Protect

Comments: Plays more like a water than a bird. Drop to C tier predominantly because of its availability, because its typing makes it a great HM user, and its Surf and Ice Beam are pretty powerful. If it came late-game it would be D tier. A pretty decent team support on the whole, but should never have ever seen B tier.


Slaking lv 47
215 / 179 / 115 / 122 / 71 / 110
Return, Shadow Ball, Hyper Beam, Bulk Up

Comments: Have to argue this for a rise to C tier. The Slakoth period is very bad but Vigoroth is dominant and Slaking in honestly pretty much close to as dominant as Vigoroth, the stats are just so insane that it overcomes Truant 9 times out of 10. I'm honestly on the fence about thinking it should even be B tier, but Truant is a serious handicap and I could only support B if it dominates the E4 too. But the Slakoth period and Truant shouldn't be enough to push down and otherwise completely dominating game.


Blaziken lv 47
155 / 140 / 69 / 140 / 78 / 101
Flamethrower, Brick Break, Earthquake, Bulk Up

Comments: Honestly, at the end of the day this is just totally subjective whether you want this in S or A, its right on the borderline. I would prefer it in A but there's no begrudgement of anyone who thinks it is S. That being said, Blaziken and Breloom should be in the same tier whether its S or A. Having run them both I wholeheartedly believe that Breloom is the better Pokemon, performing better in the early and late game while Blaziken edges in the middle game. They're both highly effective but one is better than the other, and I believe now as I did when I used it that Breloom should rise to S.


Gardevoir lv 47
141 / 68 / 85 / 150 / 118 / 92
Psychic / Thunderbolt / Double Team / Calm Mind

Comments: S tier in a goddamn heartbeat. The second best Pokemon you can have on your team outside of Swampert. Stomps Brawly, stomps Wattson, stomps Flannery, stomps Winona, stomps Juan, stomps Rival battles, stomps Magma/Aqua battles, beats Roxanne if you know what you're doing, and shows well against T+L. The singular bad matchup in the game for it (to this point) is Norman. The Ralts period is literally two levels and then you're off and moving, the Kirlia slow down is the few levels before you make Gardevoir and that's honestly no different than the type of slow down Combusken and Marshtomp experience. An absolute monster and completely deserving of standing alongside Alakazam in S rank.


Cradily lv 47
158 / 93 / 99 / 90 / 117 / 62
Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Secret Power / Toxic

Comments: E tier is appropriate. Definitely has some selling points and things it can do but the fact that I spent approximately 4 levels of actual battling with it speaks volumes about what it can do. I'd rather use Beautifly ;-; (or a Shiny Dustox!)


Magneton lv 47
109 / 80 / 109 / 132 / 73 / 91
Thunderbolt / Hyper Beam / Hidden Power Water / Thunder Wave

Comments: B is good. Don't have much to say, it does what the label says on the box. If it had an extra 20 base HP it would be A. But it doesn't.

Summary as of pre-E4:

Gardevoir to S
Breloom to S
Blaziken to be in the same tier as Breloom, either S or A
Slaking to C
Pelipper to C
Magneton to stay B
Cradily to stay E


P.S. I feel like I need to take a moment to boost Slaking some more. One of my criticisms of Slaking in Tate+Liza was that it was vulnerable to Psychic focus fires. Setting aside Cradily and Gardevoir who resists Psychic, Pelipper is a close comparable to relative special bulk, both in the average range. Only difference is Slaking has NINETY more HP. I criticized Slaking in that regard, but perspective is important in how I must stress how absolutely stupid ridiculous its raw stat totals are.

 

[sumwun]

The list still lists Cacnea in D. I thought it moved to E sometime last month.

i found a cool idea that can beat them. if u catch a ralts and train it to a gardevoir before going to tate and liza, then it can use it's trace ability to copy their levitate and if u use the move imprison, then they can't use psychic. since they can't use psychic or earthquake against u, then you just win by using psychic.

also u can catch a sharpedo in the top of mossdeep town using a super fishing rod and that can also beat up tate and liza because they use pokemon that are weak to water and dark.

How is any of this related to Blaziken?

Pelipper lv 47
122 / 56 / 115 / 110 / 88 / 86
Surf, Fly, Ice Beam, Protect

Comments: Plays more like a water than a bird. Drop to C tier predominantly because of its availability, because its typing makes it a great HM user, and its Surf and Ice Beam are pretty powerful. If it came late-game it would be D tier. A pretty decent team support on the whole, but should never have ever seen B tier.

Pelipper might perform closer to B if the player teaches it shock wave. With shock wave, it can sweep more regular trainers, does better against Juan, and doesn't get walled by half the stuff at the Pokemon League.

I decided to use Breloom, Kadabra, Gyarados, Tentacruel, and Absol instead of whatever team I was going to use earlier. These are the movesets that I have planned.

movesets

Breloom
- absorb ->bullet seed ->mega drain -> bulk up
- tackle -> headbutt -> strength -> return
- stun spore -> mach punch -> sky uppercut
- leech seed

Kadabra
Ability: Is either ability useful at all?
- teleport -> psychic
- confusion -> recover
- psybeam -> calm mind
- shock wave

Gyarados
- tackle -> surf
- dragon rage -> earthquake
- strength -> ice beam
- thrash -> waterfall

Tentacruel
Ability: clear body
- bubblebeam -> protect -> dive
- surf
- sludge bomb
- ice beam

Absol
- swords dance
- strength -> return
- thunderbolt
- shadow ball

I want to teach ice beam to Gyarados because that makes a more significant difference against Drake than thunderbolt Gyarados or ice beam Absol would in any major battle. Then there's thunderbolt Absol because I wanted thunderbolt somewhere on the team. Again, please tell me if you think you can make any of these movesets better.

Edit: Put protect on Tentacruel to maybe get Tate and Liza to double-target it and give my other Pokemon a bunch of free turns, also kept leech seed instead of stun spore on Breloom.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Pelipper might perform closer to B if the player teaches it shock wave. With shock wave, it can sweep more regular trainers, does better against Juan, and doesn't get walled by half the stuff at the Pokemon League.

It was a consideration. It 100% would not change my opinion that Pelipper should never be close to B.

I decided to use Breloom, Kadabra, Gyarados, Tentacruel, and Absol instead of whatever team I was going to use earlier. These are the movesets that I have planned.

movesets

Breloom
- absorb ->bullet seed ->mega drain -> bulk up
- tackle -> headbutt -> strength -> return
- stun spore
- leech seed -> mach punch -> sky uppercut

Kadabra
Ability: Is either ability useful at all?
- teleport -> psychic
- confusion -> recover
- psybeam -> calm mind
- shock wave

Gyarados
- tackle -> surf
- dragon rage -> earthquake
- strength -> ice beam
- thrash -> waterfall

Tentacruel
Ability: clear body
- surf
- sludge bomb
- ice beam
- bubblebeam -> dive

Absol
- swords dance
- strength -> return
- thunderbolt
- shadow ball

I want to teach ice beam to Gyarados because that makes a more significant difference against Drake than thunderbolt Gyarados or ice beam Absol would in any major battle. Then there's thunderbolt Absol because I wanted thunderbolt somewhere on the team. Again, please tell me if you think you can make any of these movesets better.

why stun spore on breloom? i would personally think leech seed would give better overall utility

kadabra is standard, i'd consider finding a replacement for shock wave, once you get Psychic its pretty much always outclassed and i didn't find much space for it across most of the middle and end game, pretty much only for reliability against wallaces ludicolo

tentacruel is good

gyarados i think you'll be better served by replacing waterfall with return, adv gyara needs that strong neutral option

just for clarity's sake, you're intending to test SD absol as opposed to the mixed variant i ran before yeah?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Sidney

Pelipper: Surf 2HKOs Mightyena, no threat back. 2HKOs Absol, SD Rock Slide is scary but you outspeed. Ice Beam 2HKOs Shiftry, Extrasensory does a bit and Swagger+Double Team can let Shiftry win. Ice Beam 2HKOs Cacturne, Needle Arm isn't a concern. You lose to SD Crawdaunt. B+ showing.

Slaking: Best strategy I found was to Bulk Up once vs Mightyena to null Intimidate and once vs Shiftry, you sweep pretty cleanly from that, used on Potion on a designated heal turn. Attacking straight out front at -1 with Truant isn't a recipe for success. A tier, could argue for S but I don't like the reliance on set up / switch to succeed.

Blaziken: Bulk Up once to null Intimidate, sweep. S tier.

Gardevoir: Best play is to 2HKO Mightyena with Thunderbolt and then set up CMs and Double Teams on the Shiftry that can't touch you, then sweep. S tier showing, similar spot to Slaking except you're clean sweeping through a team immune to your STAB and with two enemies resistant to your coverage.

Cradily: Toxic beats Mightyena but you take a bunch of damage, Sludge Bomb beats Shiftry, Sludge Bomb beats Cacturne but you take a bunch of damage, you lose to Absol, and you beat Crawdaunt with Giga Drain. Looks like a D tier performance to my eyes.

Magneton: Dumpster Mightyena, dumpster Crawdaunt, Shiftry is a dick but you actually win this if you don't miss because it boosts your Hyper Beam with Swagger, Cacturne you smash with your +4 Hyper Beam, and you beat Absol clean. A tier performance since the Grasses are a pain to get through if they don't help you out.

Phoebe

Pelipper: Surf+Ice Beam+Surf claimed the kill on Dusclops 1 without triggering a potion, at the cost of a bunch of PP. Banette 2 is a loss to Thunderbolt. Dusclops 2 is a loss, it 3HKOs you, you do not after Sitrus. Banette 1 and Sableye are flat 2HKOs. On the borderline of a C to B performance, two wins, two losses, one contingent win.

Magneton: You beat Duslops 1 with a Thunderbolt 2HKO, you can't fight Dusclops 2 because Earthquake, neither the Banette's or Sableye can touch you while you 2HKO. A grade.

Slaking: Dusclops 1 has silly AI that always goes to two straight Protects, i.e. you get a free Bulk Up and then immediately OHKO. Neither of the Banette's can touch you and Dusclops 2 also goes down easy. Bizarrely its actually Sableye that troubles you the most, it will survive a +1 Shadow Ball and has Double Team so you can end up sitting for a while, or having to use a potion. Easy A grade though.

Blaziken: See previous about AI. Second Protect failed which means it goes for a third Protect and lets Blaziken go to +3 and OHKO Dusclops with Earthquake. Sableye goes down to boosted Earthquake while the Banette's go down even to unboosted Flamethrower. Dusclops 2 lives an Earthquake though and can hit you with Earthquake. Of course you have +3 defense. S grade, Banette 1 and Sableye are as much set up fodder as Dusclops 1 if Curse is used, Dusclops 2 is the only threat at neutral.

Gardevoir: tfw Dusclops letting Gardevoir set up to +3 for free and clean sweep. Checked this a couple times and the Ghost weak changes the RNG structure, it will sometimes Shadow Punch or Confuse on t2. If it uses Shadow Punch, Psychic still OHKOs Dusclops 1, both Banettes, and Sableye (TBolt) at +2, only Dusclops 2 can survive. If it uses Confuse Ray it will go for another Protect and let you go to +3 for the clean sweep. In conclusion, you're a Psychic type facing Ghost types, you get 4 kills guaranteed and you clean sweep if the randomness favours you. Expectations factored means this can only be an S grade.

Cradily: I don't want to use this anymore, it makes me sad :(

 

[sumwun]

why stun spore on breloom? i would personally think leech seed would give better overall utility

kadabra is standard, i'd consider finding a replacement for shock wave, once you get Psychic its pretty much always outclassed and i didn't find much space for it across most of the middle and end game, pretty much only for reliability against wallaces ludicolo

tentacruel is good

gyarados i think you'll be better served by replacing waterfall with return, adv gyara needs that strong neutral option

just for clarity's sake, you're intending to test SD absol as opposed to the mixed variant i ran before yeah?

For leech seed, I was thinking "why deal 1/8 damage each turn when I can attack the opponent directly?" And I thought stun spore might be useful in case I ever face a fast opponent that none of my Pokemon could 1v1.

I know shock wave is a weak move, but what do I replace it with? Kadabra's movepool isn't exactly big.

I already have earthquake reserved for Gyarados, and that's about as strong as return. Also earthquake and ice beam is a coverage combination almost as powerful as BoltBeam.

For Absol, I picked swords dance over ice beam because I already have 2 ice beam users.

Also I realized that I can put protect on Tentacruel to maybe get Tate and Liza to double-target it and give my other Pokemon a bunch of free turns.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

For leech seed, I was thinking "why deal 1/8 damage each turn when I can attack the opponent directly?" And I thought stun spore might be useful in case I ever face a fast opponent that none of my Pokemon could 1v1.

I know shock wave is a weak move, but what do I replace it with? Kadabra's movepool isn't exactly big.

I already have earthquake reserved for Gyarados, and that's about as strong as return. Also earthquake and ice beam is a coverage combination almost as powerful as BoltBeam.

For Absol, I picked swords dance over ice beam because I already have 2 ice beam users.

Also I realized that I can put protect on Tentacruel to maybe get Tate and Liza to double-target it and give my other Pokemon a bunch of free turns.

in contrast, if you're facing something you can't easily defeat, leech seed grants you an easier time setting up bulk ups, whereas all those pokemon you're attacking directly go down before you ever care about stun spore

kadabra may as well go with reflect, give you a passing chance vs physical attackers

 

[hinode]

Cradily+Blaziken: Blaziken is able to tank one Earthquake after spread penalty

Just to nitpick, Earthquake does not have a spread penalty in this game. In gen 3 only, spread moves that hit your ally do full damage while spread moves that don't hit your ally do 50% damage. Gen 4 changed this to the now-standard 75% damage for both kinds of spread moves.

This isn't super well known, but Bulbapedia does mention this.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Glacia

Blaziken: Bulk Up twice, sweep. S grade.

Pelipper: F. You can't kill any of the Walruses and they kill you quick enough, and the Glalie's 2HKO you with Ice Beam while you only 3HKO with Surf while being slower, even less if it uses Light Screen.

Magneton: A+, needs a Potion, maybe two. OHKO both Sealeo, 2HKO each of the Glalie's who cannot 2HKO with Ice Beam, 2HKO Walrein while surviving Surf. Just need to heal off Surf and and Ice Beam to win.

Cradily: :(

Gardevoir: Calm Mind twice, sweep. Heal para if it procs. S grade.

Slaking: A grade. Set up two Bulk Ups on Sealeo, sweep clean. Use several Potions (three for me) on your Truant turns. Nothing 2HKOs you.

Drake

Blaziken: C grade. You can set up on Shelgon easily enough, and that lets you beat Flygon and Altaria, but you can't beat either without boosts, Kingdra is a hard stop with Surf, and you can't get through Salamence as a result. Return would make the Altaria and Salamence fights easier.

Gardevoir: A+ grade. Sweeps with 1-2 Potions, RNG dependent. Shelgon is obliging in using Protect to immediately give free Double Teams and when its Double-Edge does hit it cannot 2HKO. Similarly any other attack (Flygon EQ being the strongest) will not OHKO. In my fight, one Potion was necessary and a second was for insurance before I swept through the team without taking an attack.

Slaking: A grade, clean sweep with Potions. Shelgon can do literally nothing to you, Salamence Dragon Claw misses the 2HKO on level 48 Slaking. I required a Potion vs Shelgon, after Kingdra, and at Salamence in my run.

Magneton: You 3HKO Selgon, it 4HKOs you, you lose to Flygon period, you lose to Salamence's Flamethrower period, you wall and 3HKO Altaria, and you can survive only one Surf and paralyze/deal 45% back with Thunderbolt. D grade seems fair.

Pelipper: You beat Shelgon 1v1 but take a lot of damage back, Salamence beats you 1v1 but your Ice Beam does 80%, Kingdra is a non-starter, you OHKO Flygon, and you beat Altaria comfortably with Ice Beam. C grade is fair.

Cradily: :(

Wallace

Going into this, Blaziken is level 49, Gardevoir is level 48, the rest are level 47


Gardevoir: Wailord is not a good choice to set up one so you comfortably 2HKO it instead. Tentacruel interestingly can be set up fodder as Sludge Bomb fails to 2HKO you and it tends to go for Toxic if you aren't poisoned, you 2HKO from neutral, OHKO at +2. Ludicolo is not a threat and lets you get to +4 at which point you OHKO Ludicolo and Whiscash. You OHKO Gyarados clean, the one time I was at about 60% health it used Hyper Beam to OHKO me but from full health it went for Dragon Dance 100% of the time on about 12 trials so I suspect it can't OHKO you from full. Finally, you set up on Milotic if you aren't already and KO from +2. A grade, effective sweeper with Potion support.

Cradily: :(

Blaziken: Uhhhhhh...yeah nothing you can do here, even if you burn out Wailord's Water Spouts to give you free set up you still get outsped and OHKOed by another Pokemon's Surf (i.e. Ludicolo in Rain, Milotic, Tentacruel). F grade.

Slaking: This is not a matchup to set up with. Against Wailord you 2HKO clean with Return and take about 60% in return. Tentacruel you outspeed and OHKO with Hyper Beam, Return is not advised because Hydro Pump will 2HKO. Ludicolo is bad because Double Team, but you do 2HKO with Return if you can hit through 2 DTs. You 2HKO Whiscash with Return, outspeeding, and are not 2HKOd in return by Surf. Gyarados is 2HKOd by Return, outspeeding, and is not 2HKOed in Return. You 2HKO Milotic with Return but are 2HKOed in return, necessitating a Potion. Slaking can either be used to take out any Pokemon (or subset of Pokemon, it can fight three without healing), or can single handedly fight Wallace with Potion support, as an example I required 4 Hyper Potions for Slaking to sweep, death foddering against Gyarados so as to dodge Intimidate and against Milotic so as to start the fight from full. This is an A grade in my opinion.

Magneton: You outspeed and dump on Wailord, can't beat Whiscash, can't beat Gyarados because it outspeeds you, same for Ludicolo, same for Milotic, same for Tentacruel. E tier I guess, but really F tier considering you're a fricking Electric type.

Pelipper: F grade, you straight up can't do anything. I guess you could sort of Toxic stall maybe?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Literally everything I've done for this run is on this page so I'll let you draw your own conclusions, here are mine:

First:

Post-game Team Summary

Blaziken lv 49, Mild, Blaze
161 / 147 / 72 / 146 / 81 / 105
Flamethrower, Brick Break, Earthquake, Bulk Up

Gardevoir lv 49, Modest, Synchronize
146 / 72 / 89 / 157 / 124 / 96
Psychic, Thunderbolt, Calm Mind, Double Team

Pelipper lv 47, Modest, Keen Eye
122 / 56 / 115 / 110 / 88 / 86
Surf, Ice Beam, Fly, Protect

Slaking lv 47, Quiet, Truant
215 / 179 / 115 / 122 / 71 / 110
Return, Shadow Ball, Return, Hyper Beam

Magneton lv 47, Naive, Sturdy
109 / 80 / 109 / 132 / 73 / 91
Thunderbolt, HP Water, Hyper Beam, Thunder Wave

Cradily lv 47, Hasty, Suction Cups
158 / 93 / 99 / 90 / 117 / 62
Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Toxic, Secret Power

Nominations:

Blaziken: drop to A tier OR have Breloom rise to S

- Bad matchups against Roxanne unless you overlevel, Brawly, Tate and Liza, and Wallace, okay matchups vs Winona and Drake. The remainder of its matchups are an even split between A and S performances. It just isn't dominating, its best performances aren't numerous to counteract its multiple weak performances. To quote Merritt from when I nominated Breloom before, "Everything in A rank is an outstanding Pokemon with few flaws and while Breloom is arguably the best among the A ranks (with notable competition from Rayquaza and Zangoose), it doesn't quite reach the level of dominance that would be expected from the S rank Pokemon." This statement directly applies to Blaziken, it simply isn't a dominating force in the ways of Swampert or Gardevoir. In contrast, Breloom does have a dominating early and mid-game performance to pair with a very strong late-game (capable of sweeping 4/5 E4 members with an X Speed). Having now run both it's very clear to me that Breloom is the definitively better Pokemon.


Gardevoir: rise to S tier

- I've gone over the reasons for this a couple times, but to reiterate: Gardevoir is a dominating force from the moment it evolves and never slows down, capable of sweeping every single enemy in the game. Kirlia is weaker that Gardevoir but still very powerful, sweeping both Wattson and Flannery, only suffering during the few levels before evolution when it must fight Norman. Ralts is the traditional point of criticism and said criticisms are vastly overblown. You must switch grind for two levels to acquire Confusion but once you do Ralts is self-sufficient, quickly becoming powerful; from level 13 you are capable of soloing Roxanne and cleanly defeat Brawly at level 16. At every stage of the game Gardevoir is a superb combatant and is one of the most dominant Pokemon available. In my point of view it is clearly at least equal to Alakazam, and in my perspective it surpasses it as the physical bulk is more meaningful than the speed. I believe this is the second best Pokemon for a playthrough, behind only Swampert.
- Key notes for write up: Double Team is something I've long overlooked but it turns out to be a significantly powerful option, directly empowering sweeps against Roxanne, Wattson, Sidney, and Drake.


Pelipper: drop to C tier

- Not a ton to say about this, it's just not strong or bulky enough to deserve to be B tier. It's Flying STAB is meaningless offensively so it plays like a Water type which is valuable enough, but doesn't have the bulk or strength or movepool to match other Water type options. It's major matchups are similarly a mixed bag more representative of C than B. It can pretty much never sweep any major fight and is best served as a targeted attacker, a job it performs adequately. A reasonable supporting option, but not one that should be used as a primary choice on any team.


Slaking: rise to C tier at minimum, strong argument for B tier.

- So here's the thing. Truant fucking suuuuuuuucks. Slakoth is really bad. 4% encounter rate sucks. But here's the other thing. Vigoroth and Slaking are ridiculously, insanely dominant. Vigoroth is one of the top 3 middle-game Pokemon available (alongside Marshtomp and Hariyama) and Slaking is quite possibly among the top 3 options available itself as the matchups I've walked through evidence. Even in spite of Truant, Slaking was still consistently able to sweep through any and all opponents courtesy of its literal cover legendary stats. Strong enough to OHKO almost anything in the game and bulky enough to set up or burn Truant turns, every single matchup Slaking encountered was graded as an A or S tier performance. Vigoroth itself had two S tier and one B tier showing to go with it. The negatives in Truant and Slakoth are horrible and completely necessary as otherwise it would literally break the game. It almost does this anyway.
- Key notes for write up: Bulk Up is the key to unleashing Vigoroth terror as well as empowering Slaking sweeps in otherwise poor matchups, Scratch should lead to Fury Swipes, to Secret Power, to Return.


Magneton: stay in B

- I have literally nothing to say about this, it does what it says on the box. Thought it maybe could have made a case for A, but it cannot.


Cradily: stay in E or drop to F

You can make it do things if you want it to and I guess it should be E for that reason, I really didn't want to. You could stick it in F and no one would care to be honest.

 

[Merritt]

Just two things to note before I back out for other people to chime in, relating to Wingull and Slaking.

Wingull: I think you're spot on for the combat abilities of Wingull and Pelipper, but personally what manages to push that C to a B is condensed access to Surf and Fly. The ability to not have to grab a team member for either of these basically mandatory HMs is huge and makes filling out the rest of the HM slots much easier since access to Dive/Waterfall/Strength/Rock Smash isn't particularly difficult.

Slaking: And this is specific to Slaking. Keep in mind that this list isn't just about who can beat the game, it's about how efficiently they can do so. A Pokemon that can set up to +6 with Calm Mind and sweep is better than a Pokemon which can't win at all, but in turn it's worse than a Pokemon that needs to set up to +1 or +0. For Slaking the cost appeared to be in turns and resources. I looked quickly back and basically all of Slaking's performances were with the asterisk of *with a few Potions. Adding in the times where it set up with Bulk Up and essentially doubling those and the easy clears may still be easy but they're definitely not efficient. Moreso than using a Pokemon which can't win at all but at the same time... It's the same reason why a Pokemon who has to rely on Leech Seed or Toxic would be put down: it's an incredibly effective strategy but it burns turns hard.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Just two things to note before I back out for other people to chime in, relating to Wingull and Slaking.

Wingull: I think you're spot on for the combat abilities of Wingull and Pelipper, but personally what manages to push that C to a B is condensed access to Surf and Fly. The ability to not have to grab a team member for either of these basically mandatory HMs is huge and makes filling out the rest of the HM slots much easier since access to Dive/Waterfall/Strength/Rock Smash isn't particularly difficult.

Slaking: And this is specific to Slaking. Keep in mind that this list isn't just about who can beat the game, it's about how efficiently they can do so. A Pokemon that can set up to +6 with Calm Mind and sweep is better than a Pokemon which can't win at all, but in turn it's worse than a Pokemon that needs to set up to +1 or +0. For Slaking the cost appeared to be in turns and resources. I looked quickly back and basically all of Slaking's performances were with the asterisk of *with a few Potions. Adding in the times where it set up with Bulk Up and essentially doubling those and the easy clears may still be easy but they're definitely not efficient. Moreso than using a Pokemon which can't win at all but at the same time... It's the same reason why a Pokemon who has to rely on Leech Seed or Toxic would be put down: it's an incredibly effective strategy but it burns turns hard.

I completely agree that the condensing value of Fly and Surf is valuable for Pelipper. The difference is I feel like that condensation drives Pelipper from D to C, rather than elevating it from C to B. It's battle performance was much closer to something like Mightyena than it was to something like Vileplume or Bellossom, for example.


In regards to Slaking, you're totally right (though you slightly overstate) that healing is sometimes required. In this regard you aren't actually losing efficiency by using a healing item because you've burned the turn anyway with Truant.

However, I think you're significantly overstating the extra turns used, particularly in comparison to Leech Seed or Toxic. As an example of comparison, Gardevoir required 7 turns to sweep Glacia, Magneton required 9 or 10 turns to win depending on Potion usage, and Slaking required 13 turns. You definitely take more turns overall to sweep through major fights, but we're talking in the order of 3-5 turns which is fairly palatable. Comparing to something like Leech Seed which takes far more than 3-5 turns to return value isn't a fair comparison.

I also used Slaking in the lens of individual sweeps. In many matchups (for example, Juan), the more optimal strategy will be to lead Slaking, OHKO, switch to something that OHKOs the next mon, go back to Slaking, rinse and repeat. If used in this way the downside of Truant is almost entirely negated. This is the traditional way to use Slaking, and my run should show that not only is this strategy successful but that Slaking can dominate even further by sweeping on its own.

It's definitely inherently less efficient than any other dominating force, and that's part and partial with the downside of Truant. I think the degree of dominance Slaking showed in spite of this relative inefficiency speaks volumes as to why I'm arguing it for a rise. Certainly if this downside didn't exist Slaking would exist in a tier of its own above everything else.