Dragonite: Jolly, Naïve, or Hasty?

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Alright, I've been putting a lot of thinking into this, and I need some opinions. Which is the best speed boosting nature for Dragonite? I have done my research, but since I'm a bit rusty I need some competitive battlers' perceptions on the situation.

Obviously, this is to determine whether the Special Attack drop from Jolly is too detrimental to Dragonite, while also weighing in the damage "Puff the Magic Dragon" takes in return.

First, here is Smogon's set's damage:
Jolly Damage Calculations // 0 SpAtk EVs // Life Orb said:
All Calculations done with flat out 31 IVs for all.​
Fire Blast
  • Skarmory (252 HP EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 81.74% - 96.11%
  • Bronzong (252 HP EVs, 98 SpDef EVs // Beneficial Nature) - Damage: 44.97% - 52.66%
  • Forretress (252 HP EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 100% +
  • Heracross (6 HP Evs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 70.53% - 83.11%
  • Tangrowth (252 HP EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 87.13% - 102.48%
Click to expand...

Here is my set:
Naïve/Hasty Damage Calculations // 58 SpAtk EVs // Life Orb said:
All Calculations done with flat out 31 IVs for all.​
Fire Blast
  • Skarmory (252 HP EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 96.11% - 112.87%
  • Bronzong (252 HP EVs, 98 SpDef EVs // Beneficial Nature) - Damage: 52.66% - 61.83%
  • Forretress (252 HP EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 100% +
  • Heracross (6 HP Evs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 83.11% - 97.68%
  • Tangrowth (252 HP EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 100% +
Click to expand...


Let's compare damage. For Smogon's set, there is about a 16% chance you will OHKO Tangrowth. For the set I have come up with, there is a 100% chance.

For Bronzong, if I'm not mistaken, there is a 99.34% chance that you will 2HKO it (with Leftovers of course), as opposed to Smogon's guaranteed only 3HKO. With no Leftovers it is a 2HKO every time. Catch that big bell on the switch and make him pay.

Ahh.. Skarmory. With my set, there is around a 77% chance that you will OHKO it. With Smogon's? Zero.

Some might be asking, "Why did you include Heracross if it is a 2HKO every time?" SO ALL YOU DRAGONITE LOVERS DON'T USE IT! Stick with Outrage on that ugly bug. (With the EV spread of 200 Speed EVs, you'll be outrunning it too) :toast::nerd::heart:


Here is the damage taken for Smogon's set:
Jolly Dragonite Damage Taken Calculations // 58 HP EVs // Life Orb said:
  • Donphan Ice Shard (6 ATK EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 43.62% - 51.34%
  • Blissey Ice Beam (104 SpATK EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 74.48% - 87.54%
Click to expand...
Here is the Hasty set's damage taken:
Hasty Dragonite Damage Taken Calulations // 0 HP EVs // Life Orb said:
  • Donphan Ice Shard (6 ATK EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 50.46% - 59.13%
  • Blissey Ice Beam (104 SpATK EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 77.71% - 91.33%
Click to expand...
And now the Naïve's damage taken:
Naïve Dragonite Damage Taken Calulations // 0 HP EVs // Life Orb said:
  • Donphan Ice Shard (6 ATK EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 45.51% - 53.56%
  • Blissey Ice Beam (104 SpATK EVs // Neutral Nature) - Damage: 86.07% - 101.24%
Click to expand...

Here are the main attacks Dragonite should be worried about. As you can see, the damage varies a lot from set to set, but after you average in Life Orb's damage, it all averages out to be nearly the same. If you have any other requests for damage calculations, I will gladly make them happen.



P.S. - Please, do not think of this thread as bashing any of the Smogon analysis makers whatsoever. I have the utmost respect for them. But, I just want to share my points with everyone else. I am free to criticism from anyone, but not to complete hatred and ridicule. Be nice. :heart:
Besides that, I would be more than delighted to here more reasons from the Smogon analysis creators on to why they did not list Naïve/Hasty as options.



Thanks for reading, now I want your opinions!
​
 
My problem with it and why I will always run Adamant (or Jolly) is that Dragonite is so bulky. It's a great switch in to things such as specs Roserade Leaf Storm, and Naive hurts its ability to do that. It can also take Ice Beams quite easily from things such as standard Blissey.
 
Yea, I see your point. That is probably the reason the Smogon Analysis has it listed as Jolly, but the damage differences are undeniably better.

Also, I will be doing some Naïve vs. Hasty damage taken calculations soon to make a decision on which neutral Special Attack nature best suits it.
Also, this set is more offensively oriented (should be obvious), and switching in to Grass attacks should never be a problem with x4 resist, but the best is to switch in to a Choiced ground attack.
 
The thing is, you don't really lose anything from not 2HKOing those Pokes, expecially if you catch them on the switch they can't do anything back to you, and Bronzong can't recover HP bar rest, so it's not going to be switching in more than once.
 
It could easily explode in your face. Dragonite is a late game sweeper, one of the best in fact. If you have him as your last sweeper and he is taken out by some punk Bronzong, then you could have lost the battle. As for catching on the switch, the point of DDragonite is to DD on the switch. If you can DD on the switch AND still get a OHKO on the likes of Skarmory or Tangrowth, you can set your self up to sweep your way to victory.
 
To be honest, this is what I think while I'm battling.

If I had to rely on sweeping with just one thing and everything I'm facing is at 100%, then I pretty much failed my battle goal. I'll say the same to the dumbasses who think Choice Scarf is not usable on Dugtrio. DON'T GO FOR THE 100% KILL. It makes no sense. Everyone expects the worst, and that's fine, but I would like to believe enough in myself as a competent person to do previous before hand damage. That's what the other 5 Pokes are for.

Btw, the Smogon Analysises are just a guide to lead people through it, not everything is mandatory, cause I'm sure everyone uses what EVs they want to their own needs.
 
It's fine to go with Hasty or Naive and attempt a sweep, in my opinion, since you're obviously going to use this as a late-game sweeper.

As MoP says, the analyses are not something that you should heed exactly in a sort-of biblical way. I'm all for people to actually veer off the analyses and try sets and/or EV spreads of their own. I'm sure everyone at Smogon would advocate this mentality, actually.
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
To be honest, this is what I think while I'm battling.

If I had to rely on sweeping with just one thing and everything I'm facing is at 100%, then I pretty much failed my battle goal. I'll say the same to the dumbasses who think Choice Scarf is not usable on Dugtrio. DON'T GO FOR THE 100% KILL. It makes no sense. Everyone expects the worst, and that's fine, but I would like to believe enough in myself as a competent person to do previous before hand damage. That's what the other 5 Pokes are for.

Btw, the Smogon Analysises are just a guide to lead people through it, not everything is mandatory, cause I'm sure everyone uses what EVs they want to their own needs.
Click to expand...
Sorry if I was misguiding in my statement before about not wanting to lose Dragonite. But, since he is a late game sweeper, it's always good to keep him alive.

On the flip-side, I am in 100% agreement with your "DON'T GO FOR THE 100% KILL." statement, as I used to and I would fail...

But do you have any advice/tweaks/opinions on the set itself?
X-Act said:
It's fine to go with Hasty or Naive and attempt a sweep, in my opinion, since you're obviously going to use this as a late-game sweeper.

As MoP says, the analyses are not something that you should heed exactly in a sort-of biblical way. I'm all for people to actually veer off the analyses and try sets and/or EV spreads of their own. I'm sure everyone at Smogon would advocate this mentality, actually.
Click to expand...

Yea, of course I know this. And as I said, this isn't in disrespect to the Smogon Analysis. I just want to share my EV spread and also get some feedback on which nature is the best.

P.S. - Thank you sooooo much for your IV Breeding Guide that you made with Peterko; I wouldn't be anywhere close to where I am today without it.
 
You know, I think there would be something I'd like to touch on the analysis, as far as Adamant VS Jolly.

As far as Adamant goes, you can still outspeed Base 130s after a single Dragon Dance, so why would we run Jolly when we get more of a pounce as far as offense goes, is all that I'm wondering.

If you want the +Speed nature, you should go for Jolly in most ways anyways, unless you feel tempted to actually come near the KO for some of the Pokemon you've mentioned above.
 
Interesting idea, anyways I like to run Adamant, because a life orb'd dragon danced outrage coming from 403 attack hurts.
 
Well I would rather run a +Atk nature insted of +Spd, but if you want to run a +Spd nature and don't want to drop his Sp. Atk then I would definately go with -Def over -Sp. DEf, so Hasty instead of Naive. Dragonite has good Special Defense and can survive most unSTABed Ice Beams, allowing him to get another DD in alot of the time to ease his sweep.
 
Colonel M said:
You know, I think there would be something I'd like to touch on the analysis, as far as Adamant VS Jolly.

As far as Adamant goes, you can still outspeed Base 130s after a single Dragon Dance, so why would we run Jolly when we get more of a pounce as far as offense goes, is all that I'm wondering.

If you want the +Speed nature, you should go for Jolly in most ways anyways, unless you feel tempted to actually come near the KO for some of the Pokemon you've mentioned above.
Click to expand...
The reason we run a +SPD nature is to out-speed one of the other best late game sweepers after a Dragon Dance, Heracross. With 200 Speed EVs, a +Speed nature, and a Dragon Dance, you hit 405 Speed. Besides, 550 Attack after a Dragon Dance coupled with Outrage is nothing to fool around with.
Brawlex said:
Interesting idea, anyways I like to run Adamant, because a life orb'd dragon danced outrage coming from 403 attack hurts.
Click to expand...
Alright, but can you give some decisions concerning which +Speed nature best suits Dragonite?
Danyul1023 said:
Well I would rather run a +Atk nature insted of +Spd, but if you want to run a +Spd nature and don't want to drop his Sp. Atk then I would definately go with -Def over -Sp. DEf, so Hasty instead of Naive. Dragonite has good Special Defense and can survive most unSTABed Ice Beams, allowing him to get another DD in alot of the time to ease his sweep.
Click to expand...
I will take that into consideration, but check the damage calculations I made above. They might change your opinion, or perhaps solidify it.



It seems there are a lot of people who prefer the +Attack nature, but I am going to ask one thing:
Can we try to focus on determining which +Speed nature best suits Dragonite? If need be, I can make a different thread in the future debating Adamant, Lonely, and Naughty. But for now, let's stick to the plan.
 
Well, you're using Life Orb, so chances are, you'd still die to the Ice Beam.

Basically, I just go down to the whole Fire Punch vs Fire Blast argument. Assuming you DD'd on the switch with both set, Fire Punch does the same, granted you don't ohko Tangrowth, but there are less and less of those around to the day.
 
Fire Blast is mainly there to take care of the likes of Skarmory and Tangrowth. Fire Punch wouldn't kill either of them.

But if you use Fire Punch, then of course you should go with a Jolly/Adamant nature.
 
Hmmm. I guess I'll post some Fire Punch calculations:

  • Tangrowth - Damage: 50.74% - 59.65%
  • Skarmory - Damage: 56.59% - 66.47%

For Tangrowth, you will 2HKO it some of the time, but the 3HKO chance still exists.
As for Skarmory, you'll need to Dragon Dance on its switch in, and it will easily be able to Whirlwind you away and Roost back up to tip-top shape.

Fire Punch is still a great option. I just thought I'd show some more numbers. Besides, numbers aren't what determine the battle. The players do.
 
i would say naive is best because nite having the luxury of being able to beat skarm bliss with LO FB+ LO outrage is pretty awesome. fire blast> fire punch just to kill his common threats like skarm, forry, zong, and growth. it shouldnt be hasty so it can take a dragon claw from mence or chomp.
 
I've actually been having the very same dilemma, albeit it Lonely or Naughty. There's no doubt in my mind that Fire Blast > Fire Punch. A mixed attacker is just SOOO valuable in today's metagame, and wasting that 100 base SpA should result in castration.

Assuming you preserve your defence, you'll be able to take Close Combats and Megahorns slightly better, which is always a plus. Unlike Gyara and Salamence, he doesn't have Intimdate though so you can expect to take a fair chunk from CBcross anyway.

Donphan is an interesting point as against a neutral defence Dragonite, Ice Shard is gonna 3HKO most the time, but against a Hasty Dragonite, it's a guaranteed 2HKO. I've used Dragonite quite a bit, and I've found that Donphan and his Ice Shard are the bane of my life. Having said that, if you use that piece of shit, Life Orb, it's gonna 2HKO anyway.

Dragonite has whopping Sp Def, and key resistances to Water, Grass and Fire. Although the water resistance will rarely prove useful (if you switch into a Surf, chances are that there's an Ice Beam right behind it), the other two have a lot of use. Dragonite makes a good switch into Heatran since he's also immune to Earth Power.

It's such a difficult one, but I feel that you should make the decision based on the rest of your team. I don't feel as if there is a "best" nature as they each have their advantages. Look at your team...if you struggle with say, Heracross, then preserve his defence so he can take a few Close Combats for the team. If Heatran or Roserade etc piss you off, then go for Hasty to let him wall them a little.
 
I still think Adamant is a very viable option still. Just compare the stats:

Adamant with 6HP/252 ATK/252 SPD
HP: 324
ATK: 403
DEF: 226
SPATK: 212
SPDEF: 236
SPD: 259

Jolly with 58 HP/252 ATK/200 SPD(considered to be the standard)
HP: 337
ATK: 367
DEF: 226
SPATK: 212
SPDEF: 236
SPD: 270

So, here are the differences:
Adamant has 13 less HP, 36 more attack, and 21 less speed.

Lets face it, how much is that 13 HP really going to do to keep Draggy going and why exactly would the 21 points in speed be that beneficial? Draggy isn't exactly going to be outspeeding much without a Dragon Dance anyway. So thats about it aside from the fact that Adamant gives you 2 more total stat points.
 
Specific Speed points are more beneficial than any other stat. Or actually, one point of Speed is more likely to make a difference than a point in any other stat. With that reasoning you would have to max Spd on about every Pokemon, but that doesn't hold up. But it does mean that you can give priority to it over other stats when dealing with natures or leftover EVs.

However, there will be times you miss that 36 extra Attack when you JUST miss the KO or something, or when you barely manage to survive then get raped by Sand Stream and wished you had just a little more HP, or didn't have that -Def/-SpDef nature. They all occur, and the difference isn't exactly huge.
 
I run

Dragonite @ Life Orb
58 SATK/252 ATK/200 SPD
Jolly

Dragon Dance
Outrage
Fire Blast
Earthquake

Damage Calcs
(Fire Blast)

252 / 0 Skarm:
Damage: 86.53% - 101.80%
Has a shot at OHKOing, will always 2HKO

252 / 0 Tangrowth
Damage: 128.91% - 151.82%
Always OKHOs

252 / 48 Bronzong
54.14% - 63.91%
Good Shot at a 2HKO

252 / 0 Bronzong
Damage: 56.51% - 66.57%
Always 2HKO

252 / 0 Forretress
Damage: 183.90% - 216.38%
lol

252 / 0 Scizor
Damage: 151.16% - 177.91%
Lol again

252 / 0 Gliscor
Damage: 38.70% - 45.48%

DD Outrage on a 252 / 252 Impish Gliscor
Damage: 68.64% - 80.79%
Read: Use Outrage

252 / 0 Hippowdon
Damage: 33.57% - 39.52%

DD Outrage on a 252 / 252 Impish Hippowdon
Damage: 60.24% - 70.95%
Read: Use Outrage

252 / 0 Cresselia
Damage: 19.59% - 22.97%
lol

DDance Outrage on a 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia
Damage: 61.94% - 72.75%
2HKO!

DDance EQ on a 252 / 252 Impish Rhyperior:
Damage: 60.83% - 71.43%
2HKO




I think that covers all the OU Physical walls...

Anyway, a Physical attack that breaks down physical walls like that is, IMO, definitely a top-tier attacker, I dunno why is so Underused (Not the tier)

All calcs done with Metalkids Damage Calcualtor
 
Mekkah said:
Specific Speed points are more beneficial than any other stat. Or actually, one point of Speed is more likely to make a difference than a point in any other stat. With that reasoning you would have to max Spd on about every Pokemon, but that doesn't hold up. But it does mean that you can give priority to it over other stats when dealing with natures or leftover EVs.

However, there will be times you miss that 36 extra Attack when you JUST miss the KO or something, or when you barely manage to survive then get raped by Sand Stream and wished you had just a little more HP, or didn't have that -Def/-SpDef nature. They all occur, and the difference isn't exactly huge.
Click to expand...
I suppose that does hold true. I was just wondering if there was anything that needed to be beaten at the 270 speed mark compared to 259. And also, there are still 52 ev's(allowing Draggy to hit 284 which I'm sure allows him an edge over a few more pokes and then even more when you factor in a Dance). Overall, I'm just curious as to why it was determined that he needed 270 speed and 336 HP compared to maxing his offensive stats.
 
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