Klutz + No Guard

[Maxim]

Discussion will be moderated to prevent going off the rails

(Refer to Feedback 44 and 45)

So, for those who do not know, this is the discussion for the Pokemon Golurk, who gets the ability No Guard...

No Guard:
This Pokemon has an immense confidence from perfecting each of its attacks, giving them all perfect accuracy as well as ignoring the effects of Double Team, evasive moves, Dodge, Sky Drop, and evasive damaging moves. As a result, it feels it can weather every strike, and will not dodge an attack even if ordered to. Only when an OHKO move is issued by the opponent does the Pokemon sense return, and the Pokemon acts normally. Additionally, even with their extra skill, the power and exhaustion involved in using OHKO moves prevents them from being benefited by No Guard; they will have their normal accuracy.

...as well as the ability Klutz...

Klutz:
By default, the Pokemon moves in a rare style of battling that uses an unpredictable, clumsy looking manner. The accuracy of its attacks is increased by 10% (flat). While engaging in this style it cannot use a hold item, though an item is necessary to pull it off. When toggled, there is no effect.

Given the latter ability is made rather useless by the former, the question has come up whether Klutz needs to be buffed to compensate.

Some questions for thought
1) Should all "redundant" abilities be buffed (similar to Delibird's Insomnia and Vital Spirit)?
2) Unlike Mega Lopunny, whose item cannot be nullified by Klutz, Golurk would have to forgo it's item to use the Klutz boost if we give it one. Should we account for this, and if so, by how much?
3) Anything else I forgot.

 

[FMD]

1) I am in favour of this, but we should remember to exercise restraint with the buffs.

2) How about adding in an effect to Klutz that allows the user's D/E moves to ignore the effect of incoming moves benefiting from No Guard. Golurk would enjoy being able to actually use its Fly.

 

[Ooraloo]

1. I'd love this.
2. Instead of changing Klutz, why don't we change No Guard instead? Addressing point 1, No Guard has some redundancies with many other abilities, like Mega Pidgeot's Keen Eye. If we made it so that No Guard dropped the evasive penalty for all Pokemon with a accuracy/evasion boosting/protecting ability, we could kill two pidgeys with one stone, and we could change Pidgeotite's extra effect too to make Mega Pidgeot less stupid.

 

[Toon]

1. I like the buffs on redundant ability
2. Still liking my idea of making klutz toggle =on turning moves towards golurk have normal accuracy, but if that's too strong, we can make Golurk when klutz=on allow to dodge attacks with his D/E (Phantom Force and Fly) like FMD said above and IAR said back on the feedback thread

 

[Matezoide]

1 - Agreed with FMD. We arent trying to buff Pokemon just for the sake of it, thats not the point.

2 -I rather like Ooraloo's idea, if am being honest here.

It is worth noting that Mega-Pidgeot actually has two redundant abilites. A direct change to No Guard (And then Pidgeotite as a consequence) would provide it with two direct boosts, which seems like a logical solution. While this started because of my post regarding Klutz + No Guard, Mega Pidgeot is also worth consideration, and would allow us to fix both situations + any future ones in case we get another No Guard mon with a redundant ability.

Edit: After looking up again, i was incorrect. Tangled Feet also prevents the user from hitting itself during it's confusion, therefore, it is not redundant for Mega Pidgeot. Still, a direct change to No Guard could be used for Keen Eye/Klutz, and the effect from Pidgeotite itself could be moved to No Guard.


That is not to say i am against the other suggestions. Toon's idea makes sense, while FMD's is also sensible, but i do not believe the problem is Klutz itself.

 

[ZhengTann]

I would just like to give my own answer to Q1 and save the other questions for later. Which is: How big is this list of "currently redundant" Ability interactions? How big it can grow? Since this list could expand faster than a human body in outer space without any protection, unless we can show this list to everyone else, I prefer to err on the side of extreme caution. That is, to make changes only to Golurk's No Guard + Klutz, if at all.

Deck's was probably the only generation who meddled with this (think Delibird, Poison Point/Touch, Spinda). And probably for a reason - two in fact. One, it gives a lot of people a lot of motivation to push for buffing their favourite mons / Gym teams, since altruism and resistance to 7 sins are not exactly humanity's strongest point. Two, Pokemon is still continuously evolving with GameFreak releasing a new generation based loosely on Moore's Law. Yesterday it's Spinda, today it's Golurk, tomorrow it could be an Alolan Pokemon - so making specific exceptions makes me iffy.

So back to my first paragraph then: How big can this list of redundant Ability interactions possibly be? Can someone with some extra time mull over and pull it out?

 

[Matezoide]

So back to my first paragraph then: How big can this list of redundant Ability interactions possibly be? Can someone with some extra time mull over and pull it out?

Eh, i decided to pull it up. Heres a list of abilites that are either redundant or rendered obsolete when put together. Note that i am only listing the ones that do not have special interactions at this moment and/or arent currently in use.


It is possible i missed a few though.

Hide

Anger Point + Shell Armor/Battle Armor:


Mons with Shell/Battle Armor can not suffer critical hits, making Anger Point incapable of being triggered.

Clear Body/White Smoke + Defiant/Competitive:

Pokemon with Clear Body/White Smoke can not have Defiant/Competitive trigger.


Clear Body + White Smoke + Hyper Cutter:

Clear Body and White Smoke prevent Hyper Cutter from having any effect. White Smoke also prevents Clear Body from having an effect.
Immunity/Flare Boost/Limber/Poison Heal/Toxic Boost + Comatose (Unreleased):

Pokemon with Comatose can not be affected by any Status Condition other than Sleep.
Natural Cure + Comatose (Unreleased):

Not a direct redundancy, but no sleep effects last for the 6 actions Natural Cure needs to trigger. A mon could still switch to get rid of sleep though.

Keen Eye + No Guard:

No Guard allows the pokemon to hit through any accuracy or evasion changes.

Magician + Pickpocket:

Pickpocket does everything Magician does, plus more.

This could be a fun thing to discuss later, even though none of these combos are overly likely to happen.

 

[FMD]

I think it's best we hold off on any hypothetical fixes until it appears they will become relevant when a new Pokemon is revealed in S&M.

 

[Maxim]

All right, so there hasn't been a post in a while, so here's the potential voting slate:

What effect should be given to Pokemon with both Klutz and No Guard?
a) While Klutz is Toggled=On, the user's D/E moves to ignore the effect of incoming moves benefiting from No Guard.
b) While Klutz is Toggled=On, the Pokemon ignores the evasive penalty of No Guard, resetting incoming moves to their usual accuracy.
c) Change the Ability No Guard for all Pokemon: Any Pokemon with a accuracy/evasion boosting/protecting ability ignores the evasive penalty of No Guard, resetting incoming moves to their usual accuracy.
d) No Change, and send back to Discussion
e) No Change, and do nothing

If anyone has an issue with this slate, please let me know. Otherwise Voting will go up in 24-48 hours.

EDIT: Note that on C we would probably need to codify what abilities count in that category (similar to how Iron Fist lists all the moves that benefit).