As I said before you can also have Bulldoze on it for potential Ground STAB before the Rock Gym
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Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Its_A_Random
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Lunatone seems like it would at least be better than Solrock, although I don't know if it deserves C. Its good special attacks allows it to use its movepool better. It comes with Hypnosis and Confusion (although you need one below level 17) and it learns Psychic and Moonblast by level up, and Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, and I guess Charge Beam from TMs can help round out coverage. It's not particularly fast and its bulk is not anything special especially considering it has 6 weaknesses. I assume, unlike Solrock, it has a good matchup against Korrina, but it's not too helpful anywhere else. I assume it's also not nearly as good against Team Flare, although it still resists most of their attacks, its Rock STAB is not nearly as effective. After reviewing, D-Tier is fine.
Everything else seems ok. Has anyone actually used Dwebble? In theory it seems like it would have basically no good matchups and I don't think Shell Smash alone really makes up it. D-Tier seems fine but I'd like to hear the opinion of someone who actually used it (which may be nobody).
As a Dwebble/Crustle user, I'd like to suggest C for it actually. It's easy to get a good nature for it and although Shell Smash isn't that impressive on its own, Sturdy + Shell Smash guarantees you'll be able to clean up things that you've got no business cleaning up once you learn it (L40). His best STAB (X-Scissor) is available before the Grass gym, and although it's not on the main path it takes like two minutes to get there.
For what it's worth, you can sweep SIEBOLD with a Crustle in most circumstances.
For what it's worth, you can sweep SIEBOLD with a Crustle in most circumstances.
I think we might have discussed this earlier but I think Solrock makes use of it's movepool better as most of its (good/early) options are physical. Moonblast, Shadow Ball and Ice Beam all come quite late, and Grass Knot will be weak against most in-game trainers due to all the random lightweight 'mons they use. Solrock on the other hand can have Rock Slide / Bulldoze / Acrobatics / filler pretty early so it can dish out damage for most of the game. Lunatone has to rely on Psychic and Grass Knot for ages until you find all the good tms. But alas, we don't tier 'mons relative to how other ones do, so they will both end up D-tier, but for arguments sake I solidly think Solrock is better then Lunatone...
I mean I guess, but wouldn't you have to get lucky in Coumarine for Acrobatics or just backtrack back to the TM lady every day? The reason I assumed (my last post was all theory) that Lunatone would be better is because of its better gym matchup against Korrina and Olympia. I forgot that you don't have Shadow Ball at the psychic gym. Solrock however, as you said, has a better early movepool and is more helpful against Team Flare and random trainers. They're both solidly D-Tier though.
Well let's see, it's available as soon as you get Rock Smash before the second gym. Its stats are meh, its very slow and frail from the special side at least. Its attack is perfectly acceptable and its defense is great. Its typing is not that good, it only has 2 resistances and is weak to Rock, Steel, and Water, all of which have a gym leader/elite four member of that type. The highlight of its movepool is Shell Smash. Other than that is learns X-Scissor and Rock Slide via level-up, and Shadow Claw, Earthquake (which comes extremely late and is very out of the way but it's Earthquake), and I guess Poison Jab as coverage. It doesn't have many good matchups however, I guess it can help against Ramos and Olympia, as well as the elite 4 that it isn't weak to as long as it has Shell Smash and gets to use it. I still think D-Tier is fine but I won't protest against C.
Just as an update, I am going to hold off tiering things until Smogon Sprites are restored or something to make things easier for myself, just in case they are restored but relocated to a different URL (160-odd is easier than 180-odd). Also since the generator is super wonky although I can use bbcode editor or something.
Worst case scenario I can take sprites from elsewhere but I do not really want to hot-link things outside of Smogon for something like this.
I would appreciate more arguments on the 21 Pokémon I proposed earlier though!
Worst case scenario I can take sprites from elsewhere but I do not really want to hot-link things outside of Smogon for something like this.
I would appreciate more arguments on the 21 Pokémon I proposed earlier though!
I agree with most of those 21, so there isn't much for me to argue.
Theorymon on Spoink->Grumpig, but I've used it in the past and it's not a bad 'mon. Psybeam from the get-go and a fighting gym helps, and it stats are bulky but it has decent special attack and speed for in-game. Movepool isn't that limiting either: Snore, Psyshock/Psychic, Power Gem by level-up and Charge Beam, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, and Calm Mind by TM. There isn't a point where it is move starved like Jolteon or Froakie either.
Overall gym match up isn't too great, but there isn't a gym leader/elite four member where it is useless either (except the Steel guy and League Champ, they're dangerous). A lot of the later gyms are special attack based, which is great for Grumpig to set up on with it's special bulk (especially with thick fat).
Drawbacks: It's not slow but it sure ain't fast. And that low defense stat will be a problem (especially in the fighting gym where you'll do fine until Hawlucha flies in to murder you). Also a level 32 evolution is a little late to be putting up with Spoink's stats. And it doesn't have a type advantage on any gym (save for the fighting one but I explained why that's not really a selling point).
Rating: low C. The worst thing about it is that it's outclassed by other pokemon, but we aren't comparing one to another. I still could see remaining in D, but it's low maintenance and has pretty good bulk for the special-based gyms.
Theorymon on Spoink->Grumpig, but I've used it in the past and it's not a bad 'mon. Psybeam from the get-go and a fighting gym helps, and it stats are bulky but it has decent special attack and speed for in-game. Movepool isn't that limiting either: Snore, Psyshock/Psychic, Power Gem by level-up and Charge Beam, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, and Calm Mind by TM. There isn't a point where it is move starved like Jolteon or Froakie either.
Overall gym match up isn't too great, but there isn't a gym leader/elite four member where it is useless either (except the Steel guy and League Champ, they're dangerous). A lot of the later gyms are special attack based, which is great for Grumpig to set up on with it's special bulk (especially with thick fat).
Drawbacks: It's not slow but it sure ain't fast. And that low defense stat will be a problem (especially in the fighting gym where you'll do fine until Hawlucha flies in to murder you). Also a level 32 evolution is a little late to be putting up with Spoink's stats. And it doesn't have a type advantage on any gym (save for the fighting one but I explained why that's not really a selling point).
Rating: low C. The worst thing about it is that it's outclassed by other pokemon, but we aren't comparing one to another. I still could see remaining in D, but it's low maintenance and has pretty good bulk for the special-based gyms.
Animated Sprites / Models... >___>
Bagon: N/A -> D-Tier
Binacle: N/A -> C-Tier
Drifloon: N/A -> C-Tier
Horsea (w/o Trade): N/A -> E-Tier
Horsea (w/ Trade): N/A -> E-Tier
Lunatone: N/A -> D-Tier
Qwilfish: N/A -> E-Tier
Relicanth: N/A -> D-Tier
Rhyhorn (w/o Trade): N/A -> D-Tier
Rhyhorn (w/ Trade): N/A -> D-Tier
Seviper: N/A -> C-Tier
Solrock: N/A -> D-Tier
Spoink: N/A -> D-Tier
Tentacool: N/A -> C-Tier
Wailmer: N/A -> E-Tier
Wingull: N/A -> E-Tier
Woobat: N/A -> D-Tier
Like before, all tierings are provisional until this tier list is sent to C&C. If you disagree with the tiering of something in some tier, do not be afraid to speak up & say why something should be lower or higher; it will be considered. It also means you are still welcome to nominate something tiered for another tier or validate its tiering.
The seventeen listed as tiered were all agreed on / had no real input which implies no objections were made. The only changes from provisional were Bagon to D, Wingull to E, and both Horsea's to E.
I am not fully decided on these so I am going to keep these open for extra input:
Dwebble: C-Tier or D-Tier?
Hippopotas: D-Tier or E-Tier?
Onix (w/ Trade): B-Tier or C-Tier?
Shellder (Y): B-Tier or C-Tier?
EDIT: Updated tier list is live.
Bagon: N/A -> D-Tier
Binacle: N/A -> C-Tier
Drifloon: N/A -> C-Tier
Horsea (w/o Trade): N/A -> E-Tier
Horsea (w/ Trade): N/A -> E-Tier
Lunatone: N/A -> D-Tier
Qwilfish: N/A -> E-Tier
Relicanth: N/A -> D-Tier
Rhyhorn (w/o Trade): N/A -> D-Tier
Rhyhorn (w/ Trade): N/A -> D-Tier
Seviper: N/A -> C-Tier
Solrock: N/A -> D-Tier
Spoink: N/A -> D-Tier
Tentacool: N/A -> C-Tier
Wailmer: N/A -> E-Tier
Wingull: N/A -> E-Tier
Woobat: N/A -> D-Tier
Like before, all tierings are provisional until this tier list is sent to C&C. If you disagree with the tiering of something in some tier, do not be afraid to speak up & say why something should be lower or higher; it will be considered. It also means you are still welcome to nominate something tiered for another tier or validate its tiering.
The seventeen listed as tiered were all agreed on / had no real input which implies no objections were made. The only changes from provisional were Bagon to D, Wingull to E, and both Horsea's to E.
I am not fully decided on these so I am going to keep these open for extra input:
Dwebble: C-Tier or D-Tier?
Hippopotas: D-Tier or E-Tier?
Onix (w/ Trade): B-Tier or C-Tier?
Shellder (Y): B-Tier or C-Tier?
EDIT: Updated tier list is live.
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Steelix in B-tier. Boosted experience, obtained early, good movepool, and plenty of great match-ups against important trainers. It would be higher but its Attack is a bit low and its awful Speed pretty much requires you to constantly heal it, though at least it has the bulk and resistances to be useful for long routes and the boosted experience means you can afford to let it sit out battles if it ends up too low on HP to do anything without being outsped and dying.
Hippopotas is a borderline case. Sand Stream isn't ideal but I actually don't think that it's TOO big of a deal. (Most trainers only use a small number of Pokemon don't they? I'd assume that a lot of the battles would be too short for Sand Stream to deal too much damage so as long as you have a few healing items you're good.) Hippowdon is pretty strong when it evolves, but it's really slow, and it evolves later than a lot of other Pokemon, although its Attack and Defence are decent when it's unevolved. Movepool-wise, it has Rock Tomb (which helps its Speed a bit) and Dig for decent early game options, plus Earthquake at level 40, and elemental fangs and Crunch for more coverage. Match-ups are hit-and-miss, with some great and some awful. I lean towards D-tier; it's an early game Pokemon that has some perks and it looks like it would fit well there alongside some of the other Pokemon we have listed as D, but it has some key flaws too.
Hippopotas is a borderline case. Sand Stream isn't ideal but I actually don't think that it's TOO big of a deal. (Most trainers only use a small number of Pokemon don't they? I'd assume that a lot of the battles would be too short for Sand Stream to deal too much damage so as long as you have a few healing items you're good.) Hippowdon is pretty strong when it evolves, but it's really slow, and it evolves later than a lot of other Pokemon, although its Attack and Defence are decent when it's unevolved. Movepool-wise, it has Rock Tomb (which helps its Speed a bit) and Dig for decent early game options, plus Earthquake at level 40, and elemental fangs and Crunch for more coverage. Match-ups are hit-and-miss, with some great and some awful. I lean towards D-tier; it's an early game Pokemon that has some perks and it looks like it would fit well there alongside some of the other Pokemon we have listed as D, but it has some key flaws too.
I agree with what atsync said above. The trade Steelix is great in-game, it cleans out a few gyms, is good against Team Flare, has the boosted experience and comes at the cost of a Luvdisc! The only thing I really wanted to say about it is that I think it's entry should be called 'Steelix (NPC Trade)' or something as it has nothing to do with Onix and this Steelix completely outclasses one that you would have caught as an Onix and evolved yourself (Metal Coat available at Pokeball Factory). For this reason I would go Steelix B-tier, Onix (without trade) E-tier, Onix (with trade) D-tier (maybe, could combine with regular Onix).
Seconding the comments on Hippopotas as well. His ability may bring chip damage to the team but like atsync said, most battles are only a few turns long so it doesn't hurt that bad. He has positive matchups in most of the gyms / elite 4 and learns good moves in Dig/Bulldoze/Earthquake, Rock Tomb/Rockslide, Crunch, Elemantal Fang / Strength. Sure he's a bit slow but at least he has solid bulk to back it up. If you can look past Sand Stream he could almost push for C-tier but will probably reside in D
Seconding the comments on Hippopotas as well. His ability may bring chip damage to the team but like atsync said, most battles are only a few turns long so it doesn't hurt that bad. He has positive matchups in most of the gyms / elite 4 and learns good moves in Dig/Bulldoze/Earthquake, Rock Tomb/Rockslide, Crunch, Elemantal Fang / Strength. Sure he's a bit slow but at least he has solid bulk to back it up. If you can look past Sand Stream he could almost push for C-tier but will probably reside in D
can't say, i haven't used hippopotas personally so i can't speak for this, but do you think the fact that it's in the slow experience group would hamper its performance?
Hmmm I actually hadn't considered that, I ended up dropping him mid-game (not because he sucked!) for a Flygon because I needed a flyer, but that wasn't enough time to let his exp. rate be a hindrance. I suppose late game you'd find him a little underlevelled but I don't think that would be too detrimental to him. Actually come to think of it, there is a lot of exp. to earn in XY, so I don't think growth rates are really that detrimental in this gen...
first of all, hi everyone.
i know i'm kinda late to the party but after reading the whole thread i felt like a few things need to be adressed/discussed.
first one (and i believe the most important too) is how the OP says the tiers were made with efficiency and effort (more precisely the lack of it) in mind and yet disregard things like availability and rarity for the most part.
i'm not really advocating either, i just feel like this thread is trying to mix two incompatible points of view because on one hand there's a big focus on time consumption when it comes to happiness evos, etc. but on the other hand it keeps ignoring things like the apparantly extremely random chance of getting an old amber among other things.
to put it into perspective: eevee was reported to take around 20 minutes to evolve through happiness to get a key move VS some people saying it took them only a few tries to get old amber while others said it took around an hour or more.
if you average the time investment reported by everyone regarding old amber it would be around at least half an hour which means a pretty good chance to be more time consuming than espeon and yet espeon dropped a tier because of time consumption while aerodactyl kept it's immaculate S rank, which doesn't make any sense.
and i'm sure there are other examples but these two were the ones that came to mind for a comparison.
the second thing i want to discuss is axew being B tier. don't really understand this one tbh.
shouldn't it be at least A tier?
let's see: it gets it's best STAB move REALLY early and by level up. it also gets dragon/swords dance, poison jab for fairies, dig/earthquake for steel types.
also it's stats are almost perfect for it's role: one-turn set up sweeps.
it even gets mold breaker to bypass sturdy (the biggest sweep breaker).
so i can't help but wonder... why exactly is it only B tier?
last but not least seviper is DEFINITELY not C tier.
no offense Random but wtf? have you even looked at it's stats?
here: 73/100/60/100/60/65
defensively, this stat spread means you're dealing with a pokemon with no defense.
offensively, the stat spread + type means you have a "meh" STAB (poison isn't terrible in this game but it's still decent-ish at best) and pretty decent coverage moves that are next to useless because 65 speed is bad, 73/60/60 defenses are bad and even 100/100 Atk/SpA are... to put it nicely, unimpressive, given this pokemon won't outspeed much, cannot take two half-decent hits and at the same time doesn't have the raw power to OHKO much (especially late game).
this is coming from someone who loves this pokemon and just finished a mono-poison run so i would argue the bias is quite low.
i'd say a D if you're feeling very generous. but if you want to be realistic, it's an easy E. not absolutely useless but extremely underwhelming.
also, i hope no one mentions glare in response to this.
seriously, just look at the stats and tell me how exactly it can afford to spend a turn tanking a hit while not dealing any damage in return AND either tank a second hit for a 2-hit KO or even OHKO after glare.
exactly, not happening.
sorry if I sounded rude (definitely not my intention) at any point and for the wall of text too i guess xD
i know i'm kinda late to the party but after reading the whole thread i felt like a few things need to be adressed/discussed.
first one (and i believe the most important too) is how the OP says the tiers were made with efficiency and effort (more precisely the lack of it) in mind and yet disregard things like availability and rarity for the most part.
i'm not really advocating either, i just feel like this thread is trying to mix two incompatible points of view because on one hand there's a big focus on time consumption when it comes to happiness evos, etc. but on the other hand it keeps ignoring things like the apparantly extremely random chance of getting an old amber among other things.
to put it into perspective: eevee was reported to take around 20 minutes to evolve through happiness to get a key move VS some people saying it took them only a few tries to get old amber while others said it took around an hour or more.
if you average the time investment reported by everyone regarding old amber it would be around at least half an hour which means a pretty good chance to be more time consuming than espeon and yet espeon dropped a tier because of time consumption while aerodactyl kept it's immaculate S rank, which doesn't make any sense.
and i'm sure there are other examples but these two were the ones that came to mind for a comparison.
the second thing i want to discuss is axew being B tier. don't really understand this one tbh.
shouldn't it be at least A tier?
let's see: it gets it's best STAB move REALLY early and by level up. it also gets dragon/swords dance, poison jab for fairies, dig/earthquake for steel types.
also it's stats are almost perfect for it's role: one-turn set up sweeps.
it even gets mold breaker to bypass sturdy (the biggest sweep breaker).
so i can't help but wonder... why exactly is it only B tier?
last but not least seviper is DEFINITELY not C tier.
no offense Random but wtf? have you even looked at it's stats?
here: 73/100/60/100/60/65
defensively, this stat spread means you're dealing with a pokemon with no defense.
offensively, the stat spread + type means you have a "meh" STAB (poison isn't terrible in this game but it's still decent-ish at best) and pretty decent coverage moves that are next to useless because 65 speed is bad, 73/60/60 defenses are bad and even 100/100 Atk/SpA are... to put it nicely, unimpressive, given this pokemon won't outspeed much, cannot take two half-decent hits and at the same time doesn't have the raw power to OHKO much (especially late game).
this is coming from someone who loves this pokemon and just finished a mono-poison run so i would argue the bias is quite low.
i'd say a D if you're feeling very generous. but if you want to be realistic, it's an easy E. not absolutely useless but extremely underwhelming.
also, i hope no one mentions glare in response to this.
seriously, just look at the stats and tell me how exactly it can afford to spend a turn tanking a hit while not dealing any damage in return AND either tank a second hit for a 2-hit KO or even OHKO after glare.
exactly, not happening.
sorry if I sounded rude (definitely not my intention) at any point and for the wall of text too i guess xD
Okay...
First things first, I have considered opportunity cost to not be factored until the Pokémon arrives unless in super super extreme cases (I set this a few months ago). Other tier lists may weigh availability and how common it is higher but I feel like the only thing relevant with regards to it is when it becomes available, not how common it is. Cryogonal would not be D-Tier if the tier list actually gave a shit about before capturing it. No regards to availability... What? As for things like happiness evolutions, the opportunity cost is generally there since you have the Pokémon and you are trying to evolve it. However happiness evolutions do not have that much of an opportunity cost themselves except in the case of...
... Espeon since Eevee comes as low as Level 19 and in order for it to learn a decent STAB move, it has to evolve at Level 20. This means that the opportunity cost is higher because unless you want to waste 20 minutes or so running around, it is going to have no decent STAB for some time (and therefore, suck massively). All rules tend to have exceptions and Espeon is pretty much an exception because of this predicament. Aerodactyl on the other hand, well Old Amber is apparently very common before the Elite Four so it is reasonable to expect to get an Old Amber along the way to the end of the Glittering Cave saga, assuming you have Rock Smash. Then it pretty much starts crushing from the moment you can mega evolve. Also the opportunity cost thing I mentioned earlier applies here.
Axew requires a bit of babying, especially before it evolves. Swords Dance is shit; Dragon Dance is superior. Dragon Rage can only take you so far. By the time you get to Valerie Axew is probably still an Axew and very frail. At least it has Dragon Dance at that point. Axew plays very much like Ralts. Despite Dragon Rage, it requires a lot of babying just to evolve. Once it evolves it is pretty good, yes but until it gets to that stage, it sucks. Solid B-Tier.
Seviper is not E-Tier lol. The thing with Seviper is that it has two good matchups (Ramos and Valerie) and even Grant if you got Bulldoze prior to capturing it. Speed is not as relevant in XY as other games otherwise things like Honedge would not be as high. It is pretty frail yes but it actually has a rather good matchup record. Also 100/100 offences is actually very good at the time you get it for what it is worth. You are putting too much emphasis on the stats and not enough on aspects like major battles and movepool where it can really matter. Maybe C-Tier is a bit too high for it but it is way too good for E-Tier. D-Tier is respectable but C-Tier is not as far-fetched as you are making it out to be.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that. I am merely justifying my decisions since you came in pretty late.
Note to self: Actually start formal write-ups soon.
That said:
Hippopotas: N/A -> D-Tier
Onix (w/ Trade): N/A -> B-Tier
Still need input on:
Dwebble: C-Tier or D-Tier?
Shellder (Y): B-Tier or C-Tier?
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Another theorymon, but Shellder for B-tier.
You get it at 25 and it comes with icicle spear (be sure to get skill link though). You can evolve it on the spot, or wait 7 more levels for razor shell. Supermon from the word go, and then you can get spike cannon and shell smash at the move tutor. Awesome.
Drawback: poor gym performance. You get before the grass one at the earliest where it isn't super useful (ice is nice but you're playing a hit or be killed game). No love for the electric gym either. Fairy's not bad, psychic too, can't touch the ice guy though (Abomasnow eats your soul).
However it rocks the elite four. Fire, Steel, and Dragon are destroyed, and so is Diana. Can't do anything to the water guy without Shell-smash/Spike Cannon antics but I guess you could try.
Overall, it's kind of like Scrafty in Black/White, it really rocks the final fights while being so-so getting there.
But this is all theory so if anybody can speak from experience that would be super.
You get it at 25 and it comes with icicle spear (be sure to get skill link though). You can evolve it on the spot, or wait 7 more levels for razor shell. Supermon from the word go, and then you can get spike cannon and shell smash at the move tutor. Awesome.
Drawback: poor gym performance. You get before the grass one at the earliest where it isn't super useful (ice is nice but you're playing a hit or be killed game). No love for the electric gym either. Fairy's not bad, psychic too, can't touch the ice guy though (Abomasnow eats your soul).
However it rocks the elite four. Fire, Steel, and Dragon are destroyed, and so is Diana. Can't do anything to the water guy without Shell-smash/Spike Cannon antics but I guess you could try.
Overall, it's kind of like Scrafty in Black/White, it really rocks the final fights while being so-so getting there.
But this is all theory so if anybody can speak from experience that would be super.
Also theorymoning but...
Dwebble D-tier, I imagine it needs some serious babying to get it to evolve and doesn't get it's best move (Shell Smash) until level 43, and I don't think it's a reliable strat to try and set up in every battle. Sure it works sick in boss battles where you can start at full health (if you've carried enough healing items) and guarantee a set up with sturdy (that's if you made sure to get it and aren't running Shell Armour) to hopefully sweep, but I don't think something that is slow and relies on a successful set up every time to be very efficient / worthy of high tier placement
Cloyster is in a similar boat except it can still work without having to rely on Shell Smash as it's stats are a little better and can go mixed if needed. Having to backtrack is a little annoying but being able to evolve straight away (or hold off for Razor Shell, but you have the Surf HM by then anyway) let's it go to work immediately. Unfortunately it gets wrecked by the first two gyms available to it (you wont sweep Ramos with that water type / low special def for him to hit), doesn't clean house in any other gym either but carries it's weight due to being generally solid. It isn't until the E4 that it will shine but like Crustle, needs to get that Shell Smash off. I think he's pretty solidly C-tier, there's no such thing as 'low B' or 'high C' or 'limbo B-C' etc etc so I think C fits him best..
Again I'm just looking at numbers and cross checking match-ups. In practice he could be much better, please dispute me if I'm way off, I just want to contribute!
Dwebble D-tier, I imagine it needs some serious babying to get it to evolve and doesn't get it's best move (Shell Smash) until level 43, and I don't think it's a reliable strat to try and set up in every battle. Sure it works sick in boss battles where you can start at full health (if you've carried enough healing items) and guarantee a set up with sturdy (that's if you made sure to get it and aren't running Shell Armour) to hopefully sweep, but I don't think something that is slow and relies on a successful set up every time to be very efficient / worthy of high tier placement
Cloyster is in a similar boat except it can still work without having to rely on Shell Smash as it's stats are a little better and can go mixed if needed. Having to backtrack is a little annoying but being able to evolve straight away (or hold off for Razor Shell, but you have the Surf HM by then anyway) let's it go to work immediately. Unfortunately it gets wrecked by the first two gyms available to it (you wont sweep Ramos with that water type / low special def for him to hit), doesn't clean house in any other gym either but carries it's weight due to being generally solid. It isn't until the E4 that it will shine but like Crustle, needs to get that Shell Smash off. I think he's pretty solidly C-tier, there's no such thing as 'low B' or 'high C' or 'limbo B-C' etc etc so I think C fits him best..
Again I'm just looking at numbers and cross checking match-ups. In practice he could be much better, please dispute me if I'm way off, I just want to contribute!
I am still not 100% sold on these but I am going to err on the side of caution here. That and there has not been a post here for a few days so...
Dwebble: N/A -> D-Tier
Shellder (Y): N/A -> C-Tier
That said you are welcome to disagree. Dwebble is bad until you get Shell Smash. Shellder is p cool but I am going to be conservative here.
Anyhow another mass dump of provisional tierings:
Chinchou: N/A -> D-Tier (Okay matchup record, okay movepool, early evolution, mediocre stats though)
Chingling: N/A -> E-Tier (I guess it comes just before Korrina... But other than that I guess it is not that great. Tri-flawless stats only takes it so far)
Cubone: N/A -> D-Tier (If it came with Thick Club with some sort of consistency it could be ranked higher but it has a decent match-up record)
Dedenne: N/A -> E-Tier (I would rank it higher if it actually got useful Fairy-type coverage... >_<)
Electrike (Y): N/A -> D-Tier (I can see this in C-Tier as well but it is half decent I guess)
Exeggcute: N/A -> D-Tier (Can work in E-Tier as well but I guess Exeggutor's decent Sp. Attack is a saving grace of sorts?)
Ferroseed: N/A -> D-Tier (A lack of Grass STAB until evolution past the sixth gym sucks, slower than molasses but it has decent bulk and Gyro Ball. Can work in C)
Gorebyss: N/A -> D-Tier (Instant evolution is a plus but Water-types are ehh and it does not have a great match-up record. Slow, but decent Sp. Attack is cool)
Houndour (X): N/A -> D-Tier (Can work in C-Tier. Early evo is good but it lacks something decent to use its Sp. Attack off for a while. Rough matchups at first)
Huntail: N/A -> E-Tier (Similar to Gorebyss but its Special Attack is not as great. Could work in D-Tier and vice versa for Gorebyss)
Mantyke: N/A -> D-Tier (Yay instant evo boo no real good Flying-type STAB until the lategame. Huge Special bulk though. Can work in E)
Mareep: N/A -> D-Tier (It comes in a horde and it is slow as but it gets its Mega Evolution which possesses great bulk and extraordinary power. It can work in C)
Mawile: N/A -> E-Tier (Best defensive typing is a plus but it is slow and has mediocre stats. It really needed its mega evolution personally)
Nidoran♀: N/A -> B-Tier (Nidorina comes tri-flawless and a near instant Nidoqueen which has a huge movepool and a decent record)
Nidoran♂: N/A -> B-Tier (Nidoking is super cool and has always been great in-game. XY is no real exception either. A-Tier is a bit too much of a stretch though)
Remoraid: N/A -> D-Tier (Instant Evo is cool and it has some powerful offences but it is slow as after evolution... I guess it can be worth a look in C)
Roggenrola: N/A -> D-Tier (It does not get OHKOed which is a plus but it comes at a really rough time for it and it just does not seem super great. Can work in E)
Sigilyph: N/A -> C-Tier (This or B-Tier. Good for Korrina and Ramos and great stats at the point you get it. Being conservative here however I guess)
Slowpoke (Slowbro): N/A -> E-Tier (Ummm... Uhhh... Hmmm... Slowbro is half decent but the early-game does it no favours)
Slowpoke (Slowking): N/A -> E-Tier (It comes earlier than Slowbro I guess... It is definitely better because of it but I doubt it is good enough to warrant D)
Snubbull: N/A -> D-Tier (C-Tier is not completely far-fetched. Early evo is really good and Base 120 Attack is great. No STAB until late sucks though)
Solosis: N/A -> D-Tier (I guess it is good against Korrina and Recover off the bat is cool but it does not evolve early and its bulk is poor. C could work?)
Stunky: N/A -> D-Tier (It has a good match-up record I guess?)
Yanma: N/A -> D-Tier (It has an okay match-up record but there are quite a lot of Rock-type attacks that annoy it in those matchups. Horde-only sucks)
I guess these are what I think about them with some wild guesses. What do you guys think? some twenty four entries there this should clean up the coastal section
EDIT: Okay the updated list is now live.
Dwebble: N/A -> D-Tier
Shellder (Y): N/A -> C-Tier
That said you are welcome to disagree. Dwebble is bad until you get Shell Smash. Shellder is p cool but I am going to be conservative here.
Anyhow another mass dump of provisional tierings:
Chinchou: N/A -> D-Tier (Okay matchup record, okay movepool, early evolution, mediocre stats though)
Chingling: N/A -> E-Tier (I guess it comes just before Korrina... But other than that I guess it is not that great. Tri-flawless stats only takes it so far)
Cubone: N/A -> D-Tier (If it came with Thick Club with some sort of consistency it could be ranked higher but it has a decent match-up record)
Dedenne: N/A -> E-Tier (I would rank it higher if it actually got useful Fairy-type coverage... >_<)
Electrike (Y): N/A -> D-Tier (I can see this in C-Tier as well but it is half decent I guess)
Exeggcute: N/A -> D-Tier (Can work in E-Tier as well but I guess Exeggutor's decent Sp. Attack is a saving grace of sorts?)
Ferroseed: N/A -> D-Tier (A lack of Grass STAB until evolution past the sixth gym sucks, slower than molasses but it has decent bulk and Gyro Ball. Can work in C)
Gorebyss: N/A -> D-Tier (Instant evolution is a plus but Water-types are ehh and it does not have a great match-up record. Slow, but decent Sp. Attack is cool)
Houndour (X): N/A -> D-Tier (Can work in C-Tier. Early evo is good but it lacks something decent to use its Sp. Attack off for a while. Rough matchups at first)
Huntail: N/A -> E-Tier (Similar to Gorebyss but its Special Attack is not as great. Could work in D-Tier and vice versa for Gorebyss)
Mantyke: N/A -> D-Tier (Yay instant evo boo no real good Flying-type STAB until the lategame. Huge Special bulk though. Can work in E)
Mareep: N/A -> D-Tier (It comes in a horde and it is slow as but it gets its Mega Evolution which possesses great bulk and extraordinary power. It can work in C)
Mawile: N/A -> E-Tier (Best defensive typing is a plus but it is slow and has mediocre stats. It really needed its mega evolution personally)
Nidoran♀: N/A -> B-Tier (Nidorina comes tri-flawless and a near instant Nidoqueen which has a huge movepool and a decent record)
Nidoran♂: N/A -> B-Tier (Nidoking is super cool and has always been great in-game. XY is no real exception either. A-Tier is a bit too much of a stretch though)
Remoraid: N/A -> D-Tier (Instant Evo is cool and it has some powerful offences but it is slow as after evolution... I guess it can be worth a look in C)
Roggenrola: N/A -> D-Tier (It does not get OHKOed which is a plus but it comes at a really rough time for it and it just does not seem super great. Can work in E)
Sigilyph: N/A -> C-Tier (This or B-Tier. Good for Korrina and Ramos and great stats at the point you get it. Being conservative here however I guess)
Slowpoke (Slowbro): N/A -> E-Tier (Ummm... Uhhh... Hmmm... Slowbro is half decent but the early-game does it no favours)
Slowpoke (Slowking): N/A -> E-Tier (It comes earlier than Slowbro I guess... It is definitely better because of it but I doubt it is good enough to warrant D)
Snubbull: N/A -> D-Tier (C-Tier is not completely far-fetched. Early evo is really good and Base 120 Attack is great. No STAB until late sucks though)
Solosis: N/A -> D-Tier (I guess it is good against Korrina and Recover off the bat is cool but it does not evolve early and its bulk is poor. C could work?)
Stunky: N/A -> D-Tier (It has a good match-up record I guess?)
Yanma: N/A -> D-Tier (It has an okay match-up record but there are quite a lot of Rock-type attacks that annoy it in those matchups. Horde-only sucks)
I guess these are what I think about them with some wild guesses. What do you guys think? some twenty four entries there this should clean up the coastal section
EDIT: Okay the updated list is now live.
I'm rather against Ferroseed being D-Rank. If we're talking about a Speed run, then D-Rank is perfectly fine for it, I agree in that case. But if we're not talking a speed run, then I think Ferroseed's insanely underrated. I have a post about this that I made a while back:
I've been playing through Y again, and I think B-Rank would be the best rank for him, since he does have a bit of a slow start, but can pull his weight fairly well thanks to Curse. If we aren't talking speed runs here, then C-Rank at worst is what I'd nominate him for.
Ferroseed
Availability: Glittering Cave (Early) Ferroseed can be obtained just before the fight with Grant, which is a very convenient time to catch him. He evolves at level 40, so around the time you get to fight Valerie.
Typing: The Ferroseed family is Grass/Steel type, granting many great resistances at the cost of very few weaknesses. These weaknesses are bad news when facing certain battles, but resisting most of the game's attacks is amazing. Offensively, Grass/Steel coverage is walled by a few types, but does well enough for the most part.
Stats: 44 / 50 / 91 / 24 / 86 / 10
Ferrothorn: 74 / 94 / 131 / 54 / 116 / 20
Tanking hits is what the Ferroseed family does best, but they can hit back well enough. Their terrible speed is what turns many players away from using him, but that should only apply to a speed-run.
Movepool: (Below Average) Upon capture, Ferroseed has Curse and Metal Claw, already making him a lethal set up tank. He also comes with Rollout and he gets Pin Missile at level 18 as some form of coverage, but they're really just there for when something resists Steel. At 21, Gyro Ball is leveled up, being his strongest move in the future, and can work wonders with Curse, but it's not going to be at 150 power since the speed differences are less significant at low levels, but it should still do good damage. At level 40, he gets Power Whip, which will finally allow him to take on Water-types more effectively. For TMs, the only notable moves Ferroseed can use are Rock Smash at Ambrette Town and Poison Jab at Shalour City, but Ferrothorn gains access to Bulldoze at Lumoise City store, Aerial Ace at Connecting Cave, and Shadow Claw at Glittering Cave. A notable move that isn't offensive is Thunder Wave at Route 10, so more easily capturing Pokemon/crippling opponents is good to have. If needed, Ferrothorn gets Cut and Strength.
Major Battles:
Team Flare: Fire-types and Scrafty are bad news, but they're really the only concern.
Grant: Ferroseed can set up on everything and proceed to KO. Nothing stops this thing once it starts setting up.
Korrina: This is one of the few bad matchups Ferroseed will ever face. Fighting-types prey upon him, so he's no good here.
All Rival Battles: Meowstic is set up bait, Fire starter and Flareon can easily KO, and everything else is taken care of with no problem.
Ramos: You resist most things thrown at you, and you can set up on everything.
Clemont: I'm getting tired of saying this, but I'll say it anyways; easy set up and sweep.
Valerie: You can kill everything here, even without setting up.
Olympia: Aside from a Medicham, there shouldn't be an issue here.
Lysandre: Mienfoo/Mienshao can take you down, Pyroar requires no effort to OHKO you, Murkrow/Honchkrow aren't too bothersome, and (Mega) Gyarados is easily taken down.
Wulfric: Another easy time without the need to set up.
Wikstrom: You can set up on his Klefki and sweep from there. Aegislash can hit you with Sacred Sword and bypass defense buffs, but that's really it.
Malva: Ferrothorn won't last a second here.
Drasna: Other than her Noivern with Flamethrower, there won't be any problems here.
Siebold: Clawitzer can nail you hard with Aura Sphere, but defeat him, and the match is as good as yours.
Diantha: Even though Hawlucha can't 2HKO you, she has Swords Dance to counter Curse, and Goodra can easily kill with Fire Blast. The rest shouldn't present a problem.
AZ: Torkoal is the only thing you can't take on. The other two are an easy time.
Comments: Ferrothorn is an amazing Pokemon to use, the only flaws here are lacking some good coverage until he evolves and speed, which really ruins speed-runs. Other than those, he's an amazing Pokemon to use. As long as you're not doing a speed-run, put him in A rank.
Availability: Glittering Cave (Early) Ferroseed can be obtained just before the fight with Grant, which is a very convenient time to catch him. He evolves at level 40, so around the time you get to fight Valerie.
Typing: The Ferroseed family is Grass/Steel type, granting many great resistances at the cost of very few weaknesses. These weaknesses are bad news when facing certain battles, but resisting most of the game's attacks is amazing. Offensively, Grass/Steel coverage is walled by a few types, but does well enough for the most part.
Stats: 44 / 50 / 91 / 24 / 86 / 10
Ferrothorn: 74 / 94 / 131 / 54 / 116 / 20
Tanking hits is what the Ferroseed family does best, but they can hit back well enough. Their terrible speed is what turns many players away from using him, but that should only apply to a speed-run.
Movepool: (Below Average) Upon capture, Ferroseed has Curse and Metal Claw, already making him a lethal set up tank. He also comes with Rollout and he gets Pin Missile at level 18 as some form of coverage, but they're really just there for when something resists Steel. At 21, Gyro Ball is leveled up, being his strongest move in the future, and can work wonders with Curse, but it's not going to be at 150 power since the speed differences are less significant at low levels, but it should still do good damage. At level 40, he gets Power Whip, which will finally allow him to take on Water-types more effectively. For TMs, the only notable moves Ferroseed can use are Rock Smash at Ambrette Town and Poison Jab at Shalour City, but Ferrothorn gains access to Bulldoze at Lumoise City store, Aerial Ace at Connecting Cave, and Shadow Claw at Glittering Cave. A notable move that isn't offensive is Thunder Wave at Route 10, so more easily capturing Pokemon/crippling opponents is good to have. If needed, Ferrothorn gets Cut and Strength.
Major Battles:
Team Flare: Fire-types and Scrafty are bad news, but they're really the only concern.
Grant: Ferroseed can set up on everything and proceed to KO. Nothing stops this thing once it starts setting up.
Korrina: This is one of the few bad matchups Ferroseed will ever face. Fighting-types prey upon him, so he's no good here.
All Rival Battles: Meowstic is set up bait, Fire starter and Flareon can easily KO, and everything else is taken care of with no problem.
Ramos: You resist most things thrown at you, and you can set up on everything.
Clemont: I'm getting tired of saying this, but I'll say it anyways; easy set up and sweep.
Valerie: You can kill everything here, even without setting up.
Olympia: Aside from a Medicham, there shouldn't be an issue here.
Lysandre: Mienfoo/Mienshao can take you down, Pyroar requires no effort to OHKO you, Murkrow/Honchkrow aren't too bothersome, and (Mega) Gyarados is easily taken down.
Wulfric: Another easy time without the need to set up.
Wikstrom: You can set up on his Klefki and sweep from there. Aegislash can hit you with Sacred Sword and bypass defense buffs, but that's really it.
Malva: Ferrothorn won't last a second here.
Drasna: Other than her Noivern with Flamethrower, there won't be any problems here.
Siebold: Clawitzer can nail you hard with Aura Sphere, but defeat him, and the match is as good as yours.
Diantha: Even though Hawlucha can't 2HKO you, she has Swords Dance to counter Curse, and Goodra can easily kill with Fire Blast. The rest shouldn't present a problem.
AZ: Torkoal is the only thing you can't take on. The other two are an easy time.
Comments: Ferrothorn is an amazing Pokemon to use, the only flaws here are lacking some good coverage until he evolves and speed, which really ruins speed-runs. Other than those, he's an amazing Pokemon to use. As long as you're not doing a speed-run, put him in A rank.
Ferroseed should probably be D because its weak until evolving (at 37 I think?) and Gyro Ball has shit PP.
The Nidos should probably be recommended with their Hidden Ability since that's what makes them so good for in-game. You can get Bulldoze in Lumiose for a Sheer Force booted STAB attack to beat Clemont and Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are both great options. I'd personally recommend King > Queen due to the higher offensive stats but it's not enough to justify a Rank change.
EDIT: They also have good matchups Flare, Val, Malva, Wilkstrom, and half of Dianthia's team.
You make some mistakes when reasoning for the Nidos though.
1. HiddenAbilities are still rare in Hordes.
2. Finding the Pokemon with the HA requires SkillSwap, WorrySeed or similar moves that are rare on the Pokemon you can get up to this point.
3. You need SweetScent or huge amounts of Honey to get enough Horde encounters.
= This is some very tedious work to do for an underleveled Pokemon with random IV and nature!!!
Nidorino/Nidorina are fine in B tier as long as they don't have Rivalry and even then they work great about half the time.
Regarding Ferroseed you should read valmanways post first. He clearly showed that Ferroseed gets setup opportunities against some of the harder match ups in game. Neither Grants Pokemon nor MegaGyarados are to be taken lightly at those points of the game unless you over level your Pokemon all the time.
It gets a lot of favorable match ups against ordinary route trainers.
The major flaws are its incapability to deal with the strong blackbelt trainers and the fire types from TeamFlare (once they get fire type moves, not before PowerPlant). And those flaws are easily covered by a lot of teammates.
This screems for at least C tier and does hint at B tier a lot.
Yeah I am being conservative with a lot of choices, perhaps too conservative with some as hinted to with Ferroseed. I did hint that C was something I would consider (probably will end up doing) but I am not fully sold on B yet. A-Tier is too much of a stretch in my humble abilities.
Also to answer the question about whether this is a speed run or not, this is more directed at an "efficient run", that is to say, while you are not trying to blast through the game as fast as possible, you are aiming to clear the game as efficiently as possible assuming a reasonable team size (generally at least three members that you are training).
With regards to Sheer Force Nidos (And by extension, hidden abilities in general); You are far better off just catching their common, higher-levelled evolved forms as opposed to idling around for a horde and hope you roll a Sheer Force mon. If you are lucky and get one, then good for you. Otherwise I simply would not bother. Hidden Abilities would be more excusable in the case of something like Scraggy where you can only catch them in hordes anyway but otherwise just do not bother.
Also to answer the question about whether this is a speed run or not, this is more directed at an "efficient run", that is to say, while you are not trying to blast through the game as fast as possible, you are aiming to clear the game as efficiently as possible assuming a reasonable team size (generally at least three members that you are training).
With regards to Sheer Force Nidos (And by extension, hidden abilities in general); You are far better off just catching their common, higher-levelled evolved forms as opposed to idling around for a horde and hope you roll a Sheer Force mon. If you are lucky and get one, then good for you. Otherwise I simply would not bother. Hidden Abilities would be more excusable in the case of something like Scraggy where you can only catch them in hordes anyway but otherwise just do not bother.
Things like Scraggy are also special in the way, that they literally tell you about their HA (here Intimidate). This still leaves a 1 in 5 chance to get the HA Pokemon - good luck ;)
Ferroseed doesn't really die though, and has enough power to strike back for decent damage at least (Ferrothorn does wreck some house). While it is reliant on either set up or the low PP Gyro Ball to dish out real damage as a Ferroseed, having a solid Steel-type this early in the game is not something to look down on.
As far as the Nidos are concerned, I doubt Sheer Force makes a huge difference -- Dig and EQ will be your main moves for pretty much the whole game and are unaffected. Have been using a Nidoking in recent playthrough, and seems like a solid B.
As far as the others from that last set that I've had some experience using...
Yanma: D seems too low to me. It needs a little babying at first but Aerial Ace and Struggle Bug give it a solid moveset straight away, in an area with lots of Psychic and Fighting types. Plays a little like Vivillon (has same matchups and usefulness), but with more coverage moves instead of status and Quiver Dance. Also, Tinted Lens. I would put it in C-tier over D.
Exeggcute: Has no good moves when you get it except Nature Power TM, which is only really usable on routes (non-STAB Tri Attack will outdamage Confusion, which itself means delaying evolution). Grass/Psychic isn't good defensively v Team Flare and isn't that useful offensively either -- should be E tier, unless being able to status counts for a lot. 125 SpAtk is only helpful with better attacks than Confusion and Grass Knot for the bulk of the game.
As far as the others from that last set that I've had some experience using...
Yanma: D seems too low to me. It needs a little babying at first but Aerial Ace and Struggle Bug give it a solid moveset straight away, in an area with lots of Psychic and Fighting types. Plays a little like Vivillon (has same matchups and usefulness), but with more coverage moves instead of status and Quiver Dance. Also, Tinted Lens. I would put it in C-tier over D.
Exeggcute: Has no good moves when you get it except Nature Power TM, which is only really usable on routes (non-STAB Tri Attack will outdamage Confusion, which itself means delaying evolution). Grass/Psychic isn't good defensively v Team Flare and isn't that useful offensively either -- should be E tier, unless being able to status counts for a lot. 125 SpAtk is only helpful with better attacks than Confusion and Grass Knot for the bulk of the game.
Yanma can't learn Struggle Bug. It requires an immense amount of babying if you're going to make use of it - it doesn't learn a good special move until L27 (Uproar). D might be overrating it just based on it being next to useless for 17 levels with the gym being one that wipes it out. Yanmega's good, but I'd still put the family in E.
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