I imagine that Thick Fat Togekiss would be going full defensive since it's natural special bulk is superb (and our meta very physically based). Even if it switched into a ThunderPunch, Zard would have to switch out in fear of the Thunder Wave..
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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I'm sad to see Rhyperior go; it would have been a really good Theorymon. It looks like this is going to be between Gourgeist and Togekiss. To all of you wondering why I suggested Prankster Gourgeist, it was because I was tired of all of the half-assed Theorymons and I wanted something which could push the envelope a little. It looks like this vote is going to come down to whether people think Gourgeist is overpowered or not, so I'm probably not going to change many minds with what I say. I personally would like to see a potential S-rank defensive threat for a change to help balance out all of the offensive threats currently in OU.
Togekiss isn't bad by any means, but I don't know if the ability to counter a handful of additional threats is really enough to separate itself from the competition which caused it to fall to C+ rank in the first place. Chansey, Clefable, and Sylveon all still have numerous advantages over Togekiss as special walls.
Please don't vote for Druddigon. It's slow, it has mediocre bulk, and it has no reliable recovery. Druddigon's typing makes it take neutral damage from Dragon, Fairy, Ghost, Dark, Ice, and Fire attacks, and leaves it weak to Ground and Fighting attacks. Almost every offensive threat in OU has a STAB to hit Druddigon for at least neutral damage or a coverage move to hit it for SE damage. There is no comparison between Dialga and Druddigon.
Togekiss isn't bad by any means, but I don't know if the ability to counter a handful of additional threats is really enough to separate itself from the competition which caused it to fall to C+ rank in the first place. Chansey, Clefable, and Sylveon all still have numerous advantages over Togekiss as special walls.
Please don't vote for Druddigon. It's slow, it has mediocre bulk, and it has no reliable recovery. Druddigon's typing makes it take neutral damage from Dragon, Fairy, Ghost, Dark, Ice, and Fire attacks, and leaves it weak to Ground and Fighting attacks. Almost every offensive threat in OU has a STAB to hit Druddigon for at least neutral damage or a coverage move to hit it for SE damage. There is no comparison between Dialga and Druddigon.
i think giving prankster to anything with a buttload of support moves in mindless. if prankster made sableye a threat, i can only imagine what it would do for gourgeist
Thick Fat Togekiss on the otherhand would be the balance we need
Thick Fat Togekiss on the otherhand would be the balance we need
I think I'm going to vote for Togekiss in the end because it's kind of obvious that Prankster Gourgeist would be borderline broken. Prankster Trick, Destiny Bond, Disable, Substitute, and Leech Seed might be too much to handle aside from Talonflame, and wouldn't be a very healthy presence in general. It's kind of like Poison Heal Snorlax; we all knew he was going to be broken on Uber proportions, and he kind of ruins the fun of playing, and I think Prankster Gourgeist's presence would just be the same. He just wouldn't be... well, wanted. He's the best of this bunch, but he's definitely not getting my vote.
I was going to make a point that gourgeist wants to use the smallest form to get the fastest priority d-bond possible, but after looking at the typings of priority moves, it is immune to extremespeed, fake out, mach punch, vaccuum wave (lol) and non-pinsir quick attack, resists aqua jet and water shuriken (lol), is not affected by sucker punch due to likely no attacking moves, which means the only two priority moves which it has to worry about OUTSPEEDING are ice shard and bullet punch (since aegislash is slower than you and autotomize outspeeds even the smallest form i think). I'm kinda tempted to say that average size gourgeist is the best option, as this allows it to outspeed mamoswine's ice shard as well as a mega scizor bullet punch. bulk is also compounded by the fact that you have a priority substitute and priority wisp, not to mention keeping gourgeist around is hardly the most important issue as you'll want gourgeist to die to the mons it wants to kill rather than allowing itself to be brought down to low enough to not be able to sub + die from residual damage. I probably wont vote this round because I dont really see one which I like best, although Steel druddigon is a cool idea you guys have convinced me that it it wont be enough to make it a contender.
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Oh yeah, I was wrong on quite a few points on Druddigon. But it does not change what I thought. It has a lot of problem, but its typing is not the most glaring (hahaha) one. When you are outspeed by Azumarill with the physical bulk of Latias and no big redeeming points, you are already outclassed.
And alexwolf, you are right if you use a SpDef set. The spread I posted can be 2KOed by Hydro Pump (not likely but still). You can however tailor Togekiss for the needs of your team, which is really great.
At the very least, it's B Rank Material.
Togekiss, with Thick Fat, loses some of its weaknesses over Clefable / Sylveon (mainly the Ice weakness) while having a Fire resistance and a Ground immunity. In this metagame, where some of the biggest threats are Garchomp, Charizard, Landorus, it is really big (even if it's just to pivot). I think that while Clefable / Sylveon may be a better as a stand-alone wall in a more offensive team (or even for the Clefable LO Tank), Togekiss has greater synergy in a more balanced team. Each one has a different niche, for sure, but Togekiss' one becomes more important with Thick Fat, I think.
And alexwolf, you are right if you use a SpDef set. The spread I posted can be 2KOed by Hydro Pump (not likely but still). You can however tailor Togekiss for the needs of your team, which is really great.
At the very least, it's B Rank Material.
- Thick Fat Togekiss (Magma)
- Slack Off Rhyperior (alexwolf)
- Dragon / Steel Druddigon (Tomahawk9)
- Prankster Gourgeist (Red Cat)
I vote togekiss.
First if all, not only does Rhyperior have good offensive presence, it's rock typing helps it deal with the flying types that run rampant. Next that isn't the best way to use Druddigon as un-STAB pursuit is very weak. Prankster Gourgeist has better bulk than sableye, has most of sableye's essential moves and also has sub-seed+disable. It also has destiny bond than sableye wishes it has.
Thick Fat Togekiss : Obviously it will be useful, countering most dragons, checking greninja and both Zard. Good support movepool with defog/heal bell/thunderwave ... good bulk. I have few to say, it is an intersting theorymon, the only thing that disapoint me is most of threats togekiss checks only fear a thunderwave from it.
Dragon / Steel Druddigon: I'm surprised by that theorymon, actually i gave the idea of hydreigon steel/dragon which have better offensive and defensive roles than Druddigon. Actually the lack of speed and a too shy bulk won't do anything in OU. Maybe there was a too poor flavor for hydreigon becoming steel type, but that Druddigon is, in my point,quite useless.
Prankster Gourgeist : That one is pretty fun xD First of all when i saw it, i said to myself, NO NO and again NO, obviously i was traumatized by the SwaggPlay suspect test and all those prankers. But after all, it may bring some changes to the meta and may slow the meta a bit, which is a good thing i guess. Moreover there are a few mons that can take profit of it, talonflamme the first with SD and priority brave bird. Maybe i will vote for it finally.
Dragon / Steel Druddigon: I'm surprised by that theorymon, actually i gave the idea of hydreigon steel/dragon which have better offensive and defensive roles than Druddigon. Actually the lack of speed and a too shy bulk won't do anything in OU. Maybe there was a too poor flavor for hydreigon becoming steel type, but that Druddigon is, in my point,quite useless.
Prankster Gourgeist : That one is pretty fun xD First of all when i saw it, i said to myself, NO NO and again NO, obviously i was traumatized by the SwaggPlay suspect test and all those prankers. But after all, it may bring some changes to the meta and may slow the meta a bit, which is a good thing i guess. Moreover there are a few mons that can take profit of it, talonflamme the first with SD and priority brave bird. Maybe i will vote for it finally.
Meh, rhyperior is still the ugly version of ttar.
Aegislash run pursuit, so...
But even if is bad run a non stabbed pursuit, i really don't understand why using druddi with that stats. With based 90 sdef/def can only do the ugly version of rocky helmet chomp.
Gourgeist has more weakness that sableye . Sableye is not trapped by a pursuiter.
I fail to see how Sableye is better. The things that Sableye has over Gourgeist are Taunt, STAB Foul Play and Recover and a Dark typing (so no Ice / Fire weaknesses). But Gourgeist has amazing physical bulk (better than Skarmory !), Water resistance with no Fairy weakness and Ground resistance.
While Sableye can't really stomach the powerful hits of many threats, Gourgeist has the bulk to do it. Worse (or better), he can even afford a 252/40+/216 spread to take advantage of its great physical and priority burn :
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 145-172 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 180-213 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 109-130 (29.1 - 34.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 264-311 (70.5 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 117-138 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 178-210 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 182-216 (48.6 - 57.7%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (can be stalled with Leech Seed)
+2 252+ Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 178-211 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 126-150 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- 35% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 164-194 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 176-208 (47 - 55.6%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 61-72 (16.3 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 180-213 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 109-130 (29.1 - 34.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 264-311 (70.5 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 117-138 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 178-210 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 182-216 (48.6 - 57.7%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (can be stalled with Leech Seed)
+2 252+ Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 178-211 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 126-150 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- 35% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 164-194 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 176-208 (47 - 55.6%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 61-72 (16.3 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
These are impressive calcs, considering that the physical ones only get one shot before getting burned. Sableye can't even dream on taking on Azumarill for example, because he is always by Aqua-Jet OHKOed with SR. Sableye is basically forced to run a 252/252+/4 set because he will switch-in in very powerful threats (we are speaking of stuff like Azumarill or Garchomp here). And then, Sableye is still (slightly) less bulkier than Gourgeist physically, and a bunch less specially :
4 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
There is next to nothing who can force out a Prankster Gourgeist. Special threats struggle to OHKO it (heck, even Landorus struggles to get a 2KO with Sludge Wave. Even Spec Latios can't get a OHKO, which means getting Leech Seeded to death) and physical ones... Well, let's hope you are Fire.
You mentioned Pursuit ?
252+ Atk Life Orb burned Bisharp Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 134-160 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 163-193 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Can definitely burn them.
It can be kind of hard to bring Gourgeist in (well, "kind of") but once in, I just don't know how to force him out. Except Perish Song Celebi or Espeon / Xatu. Yeah.
Gourgeist also has resistances, which is one of Sableye's greatest flaws. It also has MUCH better natural defense and HP, and access to SubDisable to get out safely, if necessary. But really how many Pursuit users are there? I almost never run into it.
Aegislash runs pursuit because it has a much higher attack than Druddigon. And why would Gourgeist want to run from a pursuiter when it can burn it
No it doesn't. Defensively Rock is terrible and it's only use in OU is to resist priority Brave Bird(or Acrobatics to a lesser extent). Rock has no other use defensively in OU. The only reason Tyranitar doesn't kill himself out of self hate from being a Rock type is because it is one of the best offensive types. Rock adds nothing else in OU other than a crapload of weaknesses.
There are a bunch of flying types in OU, but his Rock typing helps him against Talonflame. And that's it. Against all other flying types it's a freaking liability(except Mandibuzz who only uses offensive moves with utility). No other flying type in OU gives a shit he resists their STAB they don't even use. Any defensive Pokemon is instantly crippled with the addition of a Rock typing.
And pinsir, and staraptor, and flying spam in general. Even though it has an unfortunate weakness to their coverage options, neutral STAB Reckless Brave Bird hits harder than a super effective Solid Rock Close Combat, neutral Aerilate Return hits harder than a super effective Solid Rock Earthquake, by around 30%. Only being hit by the second strongest move from such threats make it a fair deal. Solid Rock is what turned what would have been a weakness into a strength defensively for rhyperior
I want to address the people who think Gourgeist is broken. Taunt, Encore, and phazing are all ways to shut Gourgeist down. Magic Guard Clefable is also a hard counter to Gourgeist. Talonflame has also been mentioned. Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon can get past subs with Hyper Voice. Priority SubSeed isn't broken because it doesn't work that well on Whimsicott even though it has moves like Taunt and Encore to help it. Priority WoW isn't broken because Fire types and special attackers are not crippled too badly by burns. Priority Destiny Bond is really good, but at least Gourgeist will be gone then. If Gourgeist spams Destiny Bond, you can switch in your least valuable team member and sac it to get rid of Gourgeist. The combination of these three traits makes Gourgeist very good, but I don't think it is broken.
Also, for those of you who didn't get the memo, Rhyperior is no longer on the ballot because it was upgraded to B- rank.
Also, for those of you who didn't get the memo, Rhyperior is no longer on the ballot because it was upgraded to B- rank.
Your calcs in this discussion has no sense.
Even now gourgeist can tank. Prankster didn't help tanking hits.
Even if he is bulky, why has a low usage?
Example:
If u switch gourgeist against megados for get a waterfall, and u go with wow, the opponent switch gyara because he know he run wow. So u hit with wow the next pokemon . With prankster u can burn megados? NO. I don't see the difference. Only if your opponent didn't know what gourgeist do he stay in. Prankster isn't arena trap.
Priority sub: u sub, the opponent break your sub. The sub wasn't used on the switch out of the opponent's mon? But for this u didn't need prankster.
Priority leech seed: u hit first. But the opponent lost health after both mons hits. This has no sense.
Destiny Bond is the only reason for wasting a slot for gourgeist.
OK, pursuit on druddigon is bad.
Give me a reason for use druddi in OU.
So what you're saying is that, forcing a +1 MegaDos out and stealing momentum is no big deal? And on top of that, you pegged Druddigon to be a pursuit-trapper, in OU. Dude, not to be rude, but I think you need to play more before participating in these discussions.
Prankster is a good ability for disruption Pokémon because it allows them to invest heavily in defenses rather than Speed and still move first. Priority Will-o-Wisp stops many physical sweeps right in their tracks. Priority Substitute lets it evade pretty much all status moves. Priority Disable lets it wall a TON of enemies. Priority Destiny Bond is priority Destiny Bond. Prankster was never really used for Leech Seed (besides throwing a quick one out before dying). It was for Substitute.
I don't understand how you don't agree that Prankster is one of the best abilities available for support. Look at Sableye with its trash stats. It still sees some usage.
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Maybe u cannot understand lol.
Druddi, due to is shitty stats, due to the best move he can use for boost is hone claws, is probably the worst dragon in the game. The only thing that he has more than other dragons is the move pursuit.
So, i thinked, the only "virtual" reason to run druddigon over dnite or garchomp is pursuit.
This is what i say with my first post, i hope u can understand. I say this without doing calcs.
After reading the calcs, i say 2 times, in 2 post, that druddi pursuiter is a shitty idea.
So, if he cannot work like a trapper, has sense the dragon/steel typing for him due to better dragons with better stats? No.
Is wrong set up with megados, or with every mon when a mon with wow is still alive. This happen only in the early ladder. With 2 good players this never happen, due to the team preview.
Next time i will try to give more motivation in my post, so every user can understand MY personal point of view. As u can says, u can express opinions without saying that another user cannot partecipate in a discussion because he has a different opinion.
Yes, prankster is good for support. We are trying to mix a wall with an annoyer. If u see the other weeks, u can see a flashfire gourgeist. This is what a wall needs. Immunity, resistance or another way to recover HP ( regenerator/ poison heal).
Flash Fire Gourgeist and Prankster Gourgeist serve two entirely different roles...
Aegislash could choose to use Shadow Ball instead though, which would hurt a lot.
Just for example, Rhyperior without a Rock typing will take more from Aerilate Return as compared to a super effective Earthquake when it has a Rock typing thanks to Solid Rock. Neutral Aerilate Return has 199 BP, super effective EQ with Solid Rock has 150 BP
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