np: UU Stage 13 - Ghosts N Stuff

[Grey Knight]

majaspic22, .

This battle really highlights why I think Victini should be banned. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uucurrent-52881217

i really don't see anything important in this replay, i honestly don't pif,the user of that bandini wasn't even predicting the same goes for you there are so many better replays out there, i mean anything that has access to a electric attack and a high power fire attack could do the exact same thing to you, magmotar,azelf,nido.....

 

[Azure Demon]

i really don't see anything important in this replay, i honestly don't pif,the user of that bandini wasn't even predicting the same goes for you there so many better replays out there, i mean anything that has access to a electric attack and a high power fire attack could do the exact same thing to you, magmotar,azelf,nido.....

Magmorter, azelf, and nidos don't have solid all around stats and a +180 base fire based attack and a 150bp elec attack firing off a 100 base attack stat. Honestly, the main beef with victini is it has the ability to take a lot of the prediction out of the metagame and it's presence alone forces so many switches it's crazy. Banded victini is good but I personally think mixed+LO or expert belt to bluff scarf is far far worse. I've also seen a white herb victini which was an interesting experience

 

[Grey Knight]

The guy got his blastoise 1hkoed at 81% from a electric attack that couldn't not predict and then got its azelf 1hkoed by a sun boosted fire attack the pokemon that i mentioned could do the exact same thing, i never saw the extra bulk of victini or the extra power of its moves playing any important role there

 

[Metal Sonic]

EXcept for the (better?) typing and superior speed, I don't see how Victini is more overpowered than Darmanitan and Chandelure.

Sure, it's a bit of a wild card, as it it can be any one of the two sets it is running, but that's about it the way I see it.

You are prepared for Chandy. You are prepared for Darmanitan. You are definitely prepared for Victini, with the exception of some extra bits which you should have already covered.

As in, what I mean is: by preparing for major threats Victini will already see itself covered by the team.

 

[SJCrew]

There's definitely more to it than that, Metal Sonic. About the only thing keeping Victini tame is the fact that V-create lowers its speed. Other than that, it's a ridiculous mixed attacker, second to none in UU. Unlike Darmanitan and Chandelure, Victini has no clear bane other than itself. About the worst that can happen is that you mistime a V-create against Kingdra. Other than that, let's see Darmanitan whack all of its would-be counters with Bolt Strike and absolutely no prediction.

 

[Azure Demon]

EXcept for the (better?) typing and superior speed, I don't see how Victini is more overpowered than Darmanitan and Chandelure.

Sure, it's a bit of a wild card, as it it can be any one of the two sets it is running, but that's about it the way I see it.

You are prepared for Chandy. You are prepared for Darmanitan. You are definitely prepared for Victini, with the exception of some extra bits which you should have already covered.

As in, what I mean is: by preparing for major threats Victini will already see itself covered by the team.

Errr... Not quite. Chandelure is countered completely by the existence of snoralax. Darmanitan I don't feel has a complete counter, but very strong checks. Victini can hit any and everything hard as hell. The thing that makes it scary is that you normally either have to sack something or just keep randomly guessing until you find out what set the victini is running. Victini can effectively bluff any choice item throughout an entire match with the greatest of ease.
But even still it doesn't need to because the mixed attacking LO set is just devastating

 

[Metal Sonic]

Errr... Not quite. Chandelure is countered completely by the existence of snoralax. Darmanitan I don't feel has a complete counter, but very strong checks. Victini can hit any and everything hard as hell. The thing that makes it scary is that you normally either have to sack something or just keep randomly guessing until you find out what set the victini is running. Victini can effectively bluff any choice item throughout an entire match with the greatest of ease.
But even still it doesn't need to because the mixed attacking LO set is just devastating

Guessing? It's pretty obvious when the opponent runs Life Orb: It is special attacking

If its V-creating, its Physical.

I don't know about you but I guess the Victini set correctly 80% of the time and switch in my appropriate counter to whack it in the face.

The other 20% of the time, it's running some weirdass set and I'll just switch in my Fire-type/Victini of my own.

I'm pretty sure that you need to predict using Victini: the Bolt Striker is usually Scarfed and it only 2HKOs Slowbro/Blastoise; so you need to predict when the counter switches in. If you switch out, you cut 25% of health.

When I use a Victini of my own, Bolt Strike's power tends to be underwhelming(cannot OHKO Togekiss) in my opinion.


It's true that Victini is pretty good, but in rebuttal to SJCrew, Rhyperior hard-walls the Physical Set(fears no bolt strike).

Snorlax walls the LO set(with the exception of Focus Blast, but then again Chandelure has Hidden Power Fighting + Trick so it really isn't that much harder than Chandy.)

The only problem that I can see it that it's a wildcard: you don't know which set it is until it makes a move; unlike Chandelure/Darmanitan which has probably only 1 common destructor set, Victini has 2.


The point that I'm making is that you are already prepared for Victini, the question lies in which mon to bring in to counter it?


Therefore, although I disagree that Victini is "overpowered" in a sense, its ability to be a wildcard for one of two sides of the spectrum makes it stand out from the crowd.

The question to all of you, is that:
Is the ability to feint a set, be a wildcard and play mind games with your opponent ban-worthy?

 

[Ace Emerald]

Snorlax walls the LO set(with the exception of Focus Blast, but then again Chandelure has Hidden Power Fighting + Trick so it really isn't that much harder than Chandy.)

There is a huge difference in switching a Snorlax in on Chandelure and switching it in on special Vic. Snorlax is barely 2hko'd by specs HP Fighting, and that leaves Chandelure locked into a nonSTAB base 70 power move. Victini does around the same damage (a little more iirc) but doesn't have to lock moves, keeping a lot more momentum on your side. After decimating Snorlax, you can continue to wreck stuff until forced out, which will probably be a revenge kill.

 

[Azure Demon]

Guessing? It's pretty obvious when the opponent runs Life Orb: It is special attacking

If its V-creating, its Physical.

I don't know about you but I guess the Victini set correctly 80% of the time and switch in my appropriate counter to whack it in the face.

The other 20% of the time, it's running some weirdass set and I'll just switch in my Fire-type/Victini of my own.

I'm pretty sure that you need to predict using Victini: the Bolt Striker is usually Scarfed and it only 2HKOs Slowbro/Blastoise; so you need to predict when the counter switches in. If you switch out, you cut 25% of health.

When I use a Victini of my own, Bolt Strike's power tends to be underwhelming(cannot OHKO Togekiss) in my opinion.


It's true that Victini is pretty good, but in rebuttal to SJCrew, Rhyperior hard-walls the Physical Set(fears no bolt strike).

Snorlax walls the LO set(with the exception of Focus Blast, but then again Chandelure has Hidden Power Fighting + Trick so it really isn't that much harder than Chandy.)

The only problem that I can see it that it's a wildcard: you don't know which set it is until it makes a move; unlike Chandelure/Darmanitan which has probably only 1 common destructor set, Victini has 2.


The point that I'm making is that you are already prepared for Victini, the question lies in which mon to bring in to counter it?


Therefore, although I disagree that Victini is "overpowered" in a sense, its ability to be a wildcard for one of two sides of the spectrum makes it stand out from the crowd.

The question to all of you, is that:
Is the ability to feint a set, be a wildcard and play mind games with your opponent ban-worthy?

Who said it would run LO while trying to bluff a choice item? I know you know better than that. I said it can effectively bluff a choice item meaning it could hold some other item that doesn't take health and pretend it has a choice item when it doesn't not. I followed up with but it doesn't because the mixed attacker LO set is so devastating meaning I feel running a scarf bluff set is a waste because it wrecks everything either the LO set.

Victini is not a counter to a victini it a gamble for a shot at checking a pokemon's sweeping via luck of a speed tie or banking on a scarf. Not to mention your victini isn't gonna just come in willy nilly and give the finger to the other victini it's still going to get eaten alive especially if rocks are in the field... Your switch into you own victini now puts you in ok range of a second v-create

It's not the fact that it can play mind games it's the fact that it can 1-2 shot everything in the tier in some way shape or form while playing some of the most unpredictable mind games that any poke can. Victini is absolutely devastating and most top players know just how destructive it is. Victini can easily take the guess work out of a match just because of how absolutely crazy it's damage output is with a band or an orb not much is going to enjoy switching into it. Even some resist hate victini.

 

[Metal Sonic]

There is a huge difference in switching a Snorlax in on Chandelure and switching it in on special Vic. Snorlax is barely 2hko'd by specs HP Fighting, and that leaves Chandelure locked into a nonSTAB base 70 power move. Victini does around the same damage (a little more iirc) but doesn't have to lock moves, keeping a lot more momentum on your side. After decimating Snorlax, you can continue to wreck stuff until forced out, which will probably be a revenge kill.

You are right. Victini has access to Focus Blast - Fighting Move - which hits most of UU's special walls for Super Effective(Umbreon,Snorlax,Porygon2). That is indeed one aspect which makes it very powerful and I will keep that in mind. Focus Miss still sucks lol



Azure Demon

What is the point of "bluffing a choice item"? Victini is going to have to run expert belt, and this means that it has to forego the 50% power or speed boost from the Choice items, or 30% power boost from Life Orb, which is not favourable. Besides, that set is very rare anyway. I don't see why you need to bluff anything when you are a lot slower and hit a lot softer than ChoicedTini.

Well I do think that Victini's main niche is being able to play mind games, feel free to disagree. Specs chandy can also 1-2 shot everything in the tier too. Band/Physical Tini hates Rhyperior(which is why I don't have problems with it, but that just my anecdote)

However, I do agree with your point that the mind games with the power makes Victini all the more devastating.

So,
Extreme power =/= Bannable
Extreme Power + mind games = Bannable?

That's a question mark that the vote is going to answer.

 

[Azure Demon]

Snoralax, and lanturn completely disagree with what you said about two shotting everything
Also that requires him to be locked into something which then allows an appropriate pokemon to be sent in. In response to his presence

I agree that banded tini is checked partly by rhyperior, but expert belt tini can easily wreck that it still outspeeds rhyperior after a drop from v-create at that moment you're lured into a false sense of security thinking you have the upper hand. next thing you know your rhyperior has been wrecked by a GK. Life orb tini has V create backing it, grass knot, psychic or zen headbutt, focus blast but these slots are very flexible and can run whatever the team needs him to. Focus blast is mainly for lax because everything else gets wrecked with it's other attacks. Victini wrecks all special walls with a well placed v create the proceeds to outspeed most if not all after the drop and can keep attacking and punching holes in things.

 

[Laga]

Here was once a quote answer, where I misunderstood something that Azure Demon posted. Sorry about that one.

Aside from that, I will post my thoughts here about Victini and it being bannable vs not being bannable too. At the current moment of time, after reading some discussion and starting off with this opinion; I am leaning against banning Victini.

The reason why I do not think Victini should be banned at the moment is the same reason why Kyurem-B and Keldeo are still OU. Before I start comparing these too much, I think I should state my opinion on when / how something should be considered bad for the metagame. I also think I read this in some Ubers / OU post, so sorry if this isn't completely my analysis of offensive broken threats.

There are three types of offensive threats in my eyes.

· First of all, there are those threats that can 2HKO almost everything (Examples from all tiers are: Sawk in NU, Aggron and Escavalier in RU, Zapdos and Victini in UU, Keldeo and Kyu-B in OU, and Kyogre in Ubers). These threats are often seen using Choice Band, Choice Specs, or Life Orb. They are also known as wallbreakers. The way I see you can measure justification of banning these are a combination of answering these two questions; How easily is it revenge killed? How many Pokemon can counter it consistently? I'll try answering these about Victini in a bit. Ex. of a broken wallbreaker that got banned: Torn-T got banned from OU.

· Second of all, there are the threats that can, if it finds free turns, potentially sweep entire teams (Examples from all tiers are: Gorebyss and Scolipede in NU, Kabutops in RU, Azelf in UU, Dragonite in OU, and Arceus-Normal in Ubers). These threats use boosting moves, sometimes with Life Orb for even more power. The way I see justification for banning these are a combination of: How easy does it set up? and Is it fast enough to really sweep an entire unprepared / weakened team? Example of a broken sweeper: SubSD Garchomp was banned when Sand Veil was legal.

· Third is revenge killers. I don't think this role by itself is justification enough for banning, but it both helps deal with above mentioned threats, and can also (most of the time) perform said roles as well as revenge killing. If a Pokemon can perform all three of these roles, and perform them consistently, I think it gets even closer to being stapled as "broken". Oh look, Genesect got banned for pulling off both role 2 and 3 extremely well.
And then a final question that goes for all of these: how weak is the Pokemon to common strategies of the metagame? Entry Hazards everywhere, Weather and Pursuit-trapping in OU, Bulky Offense in RU (kinda idk).

When it comes to Victini, it is definitely fitting for the first category. Both it's Choice Band, Mixed, and Special sets are extremely hard to switch into (as stated by above calcs btw). So let's ask ourselves the questions.

· How easily is Victini revenge killed? Well, to be honest, Victini really just is not hard to revenge kill. Common Choice Scarf users such as Mienshao and Flygon can easily KO after Stealth Rock + Defense drops from V-Create. Pursuit from Honchkrow and Krookodile completely annihalates Victini (It also cannot play around Sucker punch from krow and bisharp).

· How many Pokemon can counter Victini consistently? Rhyperior and Swampert can tank V-Creates for days and easily KO / set up Stealth Rock back. Even though they are unable to take Grass Knots, Victini has to either run Life Orb (which wears it down with hazards) or E-belt (which doesn't boost main STAB). Besides, it is predictable if you see the Life Orb, and it should generally be scouted for by double switching when taking the place of Victini's opposing player. Snorlax also is able to wall most sets, and you will need some boos prediction to win against it, especially since it has Pursuit most of the time. Overall, you also really have to predict well when using Victini, or you might end up in an extremely awkward spot (think offensive Zapdos switching into a predicted Grass Knot after you V-Created a rhyperior; ur fuked).

· How weak is Victini to common strategies of the metagame? Entry Hazards are everywhere, and Victini can take up to 50 percent from it. This means that, with correct prediction and setting up rocks / spikes / both will keep Victini somewhat in check by itself, especially if it is wearing itself down by Life Orb. Pursuit-trapping is also semi-prevelant, and with Snorlax (possibly the most popular one) can resist V-Create, and generally be a bulky bitch, it is also easily trapped

tl;dr, I don't think Victini should be banned, because I think it is worn down / revenge killed easily.

 

[Azure Demon]

That part of my comment was referencing to what he said about chandelure... I was the one who said victini. Can 2 shit everything...

 

[Bughouse]

So I finally got around to using that fearsome mixed Victini that everyone is so scared of. Maybe I'm bad at using it and supporting it right, but I just don't find it broken. Maybe the ladder is distorted right now, idk. I find the Band set really the only notable one to consider for banning, and even that is underwhelming at times. Way too easily worn down by SR (and everything else) and pretty easily revenged. If I get reqs via special application (stupid first leg of the test), I'll be voting no ban.

 

[pokemonisfun]

The guy got his blastoise 1hkoed at 81% from a electric attack that couldn't not predict and then got its azelf 1hkoed by a sun boosted fire attack the pokemon that i mentioned could do the exact same thing, i never saw the extra bulk of victini or the extra power of its moves playing any important role there

I do not quite think you understand. First of all Blastoise was at 84% not 81% which is a difference don't just post inaccurate numbers when you know better. I could not predict it? I already gave my explanation in my earlier post about why it was basically impossible to predict. Victini is clearly overpowered if I have to switch away my healthy bulky water that isn't Swampert away from Victini just to scout its set, in my opinion. The sun was not needed at all to kill Azelf heck I bet it would be an OHKO if it was raining

V-create: 92.78 - 109.27%

Can other fire types say the same? But that is beyond the point, nobody is saying Victini is broken because it can OHKO stuff with V-Create in Rain we are saying it is broken because, if I am correct, because it has obscene power and coverage that allows it to not only defeat but lure in its would be counters easily. You say a bunch of Pokemon with Fire moves and high power electric moves can do the same; that is not true. Timid LO Nidoking would never be able to kill that 84% Blastoise with Thunderbolt bar a critical hit. Nor can Magmortar nor can Azelf. Not to mention these guys don't have access to a bomb anywhere near as strong as Victini's V-Create except arguably Azelf's Normal Gem Explosion but that has a far greater cost to use that V-Create and worse coverage too in most senses of the word. I would like to see some evidence to back up your claim that these guys are on the same level of Victini because I seriously do not believe it at all.



And yet there are other ways to use Victini I doubt you have seen if you only play the ladder. You can easily bluff a Choice item for instance if you know your opponent has a Rhyperior in the wings and out is there +1 Scrafty at 50 or 60%. You know your opponent wants to keep Scrafty alive to counter your Umbreon which can easily wall most of their team so you send in your EB Victini. You almost always lure in RHyperior who thinks you are Scarfed because why else switch in Victini which stayas and gets killed by a Grass Knot. Oops!


One more thing, I think we are all forgetting something important about Victini as a wallbreaker it does not have to kill walls to do its job admirably sometimes it just has to weaken them considerably. Do not expect an offensive Snorlax to even check a CM LO Raikou anymore if it has to eat a CB V-Create or EB Focus Blast with SR up because quite frankly it will crumple. Rhyperior walls absolutely nothing but Choiced electric moves and weak poison moves (which constitues about 0% of the UU metagame) if it has to eat a Grass Knot regardless of what set both it and Victini runs. Walls generally only have one major role and that is to use its defensive capabilities to stop threats but if you take away large chunks of health away they can't properly fill their roles sometimes and you might as well slit their throats and use them for death fodder

 

[Lovelace]

I've been using a Band Victini and it's been working well for me. I definitely agree that Band is the set that should be considered when y'all cast your vote. Mixed lure is all hype with the "if this if that it kills stuff" but while Band has much more clear cut counters, there is no if. You click V-Create and either something dies or else gets weakened a lot. I think it would be different in a tournament format but in the hazy chaos of the UU ladder certainties are very valuable. Mixed requires prediction and is thus susceptible to both genius and idiocy whereas Band smacks both upside the head.

 

[dingbat]

And yet there are other ways to use Victini I doubt you have seen if you only play the ladder. You can easily bluff a Choice item for instance if you know your opponent has a Rhyperior in the wings and out is there +1 Scrafty at 50 or 60%. You know your opponent wants to keep Scrafty alive to counter your Umbreon which can easily wall most of their team so you send in your EB Victini. You almost always lure in RHyperior who thinks you are Scarfed because why else switch in Victini which stayas and gets killed by a Grass Knot. Oops!

This is good proof that Victini definitely has several sets under its sleeves, including choiced (usually physical) sets, a couple that involve wallbreaking, as you mentioned, and heck, even special sets, although I rarely see players use that. Personally, the EB set I run that includes V-Create, Bolt Strike, Grass Knot, and U-Turn (although if I wanted greater coverage for the cost of some momentum, I could replace U-turn) is my favorite set as it nets some surprise kills, provided that I nail my predictions. Nonetheless, the choice sets (mainly band/scarf) are also pretty effective, as banded Victini can wreck shit up (especially with V-Create), while scarfed Victini can outspeed the whole non-scarf speed tier (barring pokemon with boosts and stuff like that) and revenge kill things. Although it's defensive typing and weakness to entry hazards really hinders it at times, Victini overall is certainly a huge force to be reckoned with and I wouldn't be surprised if Victini gets banned from UU as a result of any of its sets.

 

[Moose V]

I've been using a Band Victini and it's been working well for me. I definitely agree that Band is the set that should be considered when y'all cast your vote. Mixed lure is all hype with the "if this if that it kills stuff" but while Band has much more clear cut counters, there is no if. You click V-Create and either something dies or else gets weakened a lot. I think it would be different in a tournament format but in the hazy chaos of the UU ladder certainties are very valuable. Mixed requires prediction and is thus susceptible to both genius and idiocy whereas Band smacks both upside the head.

Depends which kind of mixed set we're talking about. Expert belt, perhaps, but this set doesn't really need to predict:
Victini @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- V-create
- Psychic
- Thunder
- Grass Knot

While prediction may be nice, it's certainly not needed as any of Victini's common switch ins will be OHKO'd after taking a v-create (or any other move). Note that this is even with no hazards up.

Slowbro:
V-create: 21.88 - 25.69%
Thunder: 86.76 - 102.54%
Even if Vic gets 2 min damage rolls, this is the end of slowbro

Rhyperior:
V-create: 23.32 - 27.71%
Grass Knot: 111.77 - 132.33%

Swampert:
V-create: 24.18 - 28.92%
Grass Knot: 103.74 - 123.19%

Qwilfish:
V-create: 23.05 - 26.94%
Psychic: 154.19 - 182.03%

And if you want to make a prediction (lesser seen potential counters):
Arcanine:
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Arcanine: 191-226 (49.86 - 59%) -- 75.39% chance to 2HKO

Suicune:
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 211-250 (52.22 - 61.88%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO

Even if your opponent suspects an incoming special move (after going into the likes of slowbro, rhyp, etc) and switches to a special wall:

V-create vs. special walls:

P2:
49.46 - 58.28%

Umbreon:
58.62 - 69.54%

Registeel:
97.25 - 115.65%

Mew:
62.62 - 73.76%
So Victini can just keep forcing switches when nothing that comes in can truly shut it down.

I will say that Snorlax is a fairly good switch into Victini but also is almost never the initial switch in, meaning that most of the time Victini will get a free kill even if Snorlax is on the other team. On top of that, Lax doesn't appreciate the 50% that it takes from rocks + v-create on the switch in. The banded set is strong but if anything is more likely to have to rely on prediction than the above set.

 

[SOMALIA]

lol..some of the posts here are laughable. Nothing much to say as it won't do anything however it all comes down to whether a player has a combination of common sense + can play at a high level. I don't mean to be rude but most of these posts that i read assume that the opponent will play like dog shit + theorymoning that I rarely see in matches between good players. I think that since players don't feel like having to go that extra mile to play well in any match with an opposing Victini, they want the easy way out. Good luck voting anyways....

 

[Moose V]

lol..some of the posts here are laughable. Nothing much to say as it won't do anything however it all comes down to whether a player has a combination of common sense + can play at a high level. I don't mean to be rude but most of these posts that i read assume that the opponent will play like dog shit + theorymoning that I rarely see in matches between good players. I think that since players don't feel like having to go that extra mile to play well in any match with an opposing Victini, they want the easy way out. Good luck voting anyways....

Did you read my post on special Victini? Since you talk about predictions on the non-Victini user's side, I'm guessing no. Unless you have a defensive snorlax, for the most part there is no playing around with this thing w/ prediction and whatnot and I explicitly assumed, for most of the evidence I gave, that Victini would just go for the obvious move to hit whatever it's up against. Regardless of predictions made on either side, this thing is pretty much getting a kill every time it comes in unless the opponent has a lax w/ physical bulk. Now this is a problem since lax certainly can't just keep taking hits because its only recovery move is rest and it's forced out by a plethora of UU threats. There was an argument earlier that Victini mainly just gets a kill and then dies, but because of the switches it forces, in reality it can cripple 2 things and kill a third.

One thing that makes me a little hesitant to vote ban on Victini, however, is that in a victiniless metagame, hail will have a lot less to worry about and may become a little too good itself. Countering the likes of Darmanitan and Arcanine is a fairly menial task for standard hail (rhyperior, blastoise, slowbro etc), but Victini, especially non-choice locked victini, really keeps hail on its toes.

The problem with suspecting victini, unlike suspecting froslass, is that its removal will impact almost every aspect of the tier. Pursuit usage will go down, other fire types' usage will skyrocket, defensive Arcanine may become a thing of the past, Swampert usage will drop off, Rhyperior usage will drop off, scarfed meinshao/heracross/flygon usage may rise to fill the void of scarfed victini, ghost types usage may rise while water type usage may fall (more fighting less fire), hail will skyrocket, ice types will skyrocket, there may be less emphasis on hazards (not likely but not impossible), new cores previously Victini weak may develop, much of hyper offensive may fall by the wayside, etc. Though perhaps I exaggerate a little with some of these, the insane amount of factors in need of consideration here is a little overwhelming and certainly doesn't make casting a vote any easier.


And can't believe I just made one case for banning, one case for keeping and one case for abstaining.

 

[SOMALIA]

I hate to start a pointless argument but most of your post is false in practise. 'Victini cripples two mons and kills a third'. What kind of players have you been facing for such to happen. You seem to emphasis on Snorlax snorlax snorlax. Give it a break my man, not every team carries lax nor do they need it to just to handle victini. Hyper offensive teams can be played and not a single damn mon will die to this so called monster at times,
get me? Victini encourages smart plays,
encourages one to whip out a damage calc like a
good player would do and investigate what spread/
set it is running. People just keep abusing the term prediction and directly linking it with playing good. No its more than that my friend, risk vs reward as well as taking advantage of team preview is all included in playing well and not random guesses. The metagame wont change significantly as you stated if you played before victini came to uu you'd know. Concluding, you bring up a few good points and it was a pleasure to read.


This is my final post here anyways, have a good day.

 

[noknuckles]

I'm not worried about hail becoming too good. Darm and Arcanine are still gonna be dangerous against hail. Hail SHOULD have ways around its counters. It CAN deal with the fire and fighting types, and I think it's good that they have a way of not instantly folding on the team preview screen.

Darm can still U-Turn out of its counters (U-turn is pretty safe if its say lead Darm vs lead Abomasnow) and Arcanine can still status its counters, so while those two CAN be dealt with, they'll still be dangerous. Then there are the dangerous non-HJK fighting types as well, which again can be countered, but it'll keep hail on their toes. Scrafty for instance can take a big hit and heal back a lot of it with a Super Effective Drain Punch. You then have miscellaneous other stuff like Zapdos and some of the steels like Bronzong, that again CAN be dealt with but can still do good work. Zapdos has an obvious ice weakness, but is great against Abomasnow and Walrein, making Zapdos really good against the stally hail teams. Bronzong should be good against some of the offensive hail threats that Zapdos can't handle. These are some of the top mons in the tier that people would still use in absence of hail.

Now I'd hate to see hail being so good that everyone is forced to use certain hail counters, but I don't think we're anywhere near that point. I think stuff that's commonly seen deals with hail sufficiently well. It's more than just Victini that makes Hail a challenge to play and all those threats not named Victini will still be around. Hail is really powerful but it's nowhere near an easy win against Victini-less teams

 

[Moose V]

Wait, when exactly does the suspect end?

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

According to kokoloko's post, he said the standard ladder with Vic would be up on Sept. 20th...and from that point, we'd have 2 weeks to make reqs. So exactly 2 weeks from that day would be today, or Friday (It's half past midnight in my timezone). So unless there's some technical delay, it should be legitimately ending later on today most likely.

Edit: Ya nvm it's this upcoming Sunday.

 

[Kingler]

Decay is the worst thing ever...... I hope the current ladder closes soon. Congrats to everyone who got reqs, it was a fun laddering experience and helped me discover UU <3