BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Lavos]

Forgive me if I'm being ignorant, but I think Latios usually packs HP Fire to deal with Ferrothorn?

Yeah, but you don't really see Ferrothorn outside of the rain, add that to the fact that SDef Ferro is only taking 42.05% - 50% from Specs Latios HP Fire and you've got yourself at least a good check to Latios. To beat Ferrothorn switching in before it gets off an attack, Latios has to a) be Specs, b) predict the Ferrothorn switch-in correctly, c) pray Ferro doesn't have Leftovers, and d) get the maximum possible damage roll both times. I'm not a big fan of Latios v. Ferrothorn myself if I'm the one with the Latios, but hey, you can always get lucky.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Regular OU: Latias: Hidden Power Fire 31.117%
Suspect test Latias: Hidden Power Fire 36.265%

Yeah not the more common most, still out there, but if you need something for Latias, due to its lower useage, and it only has HP fire 1/3 of the time, Ferrothorn is a fine switch in. In comparison with other OU pokemon, at only 1.8% useage, its similar to having a weakness to Darmanitan.

Edit: pffffff.... I read Latias... not Latios, that one f'ing letter

 

[Temp V1]

Regular OU: Latias: Hidden Power Fire 31.117%
Suspect test Latias: Hidden Power Fire 36.265%

Yeah not the more common most, still out there, but if you need something for Latias, due to its lower useage, and it only has HP fire 1/3 of the time, Ferrothorn is a fine switch in. In comparison with other OU pokemon, at only 1.8% useage, its similar to having a weakness to Darmanitan.

Why did we bring Latias into the discussion all of a sudden? :d Last I checked it was Latios that was being discussed versus Ferrothorn. Although any Ferrothorn that doesn't carry Gyro Ball is generally not going to have a good time against a SubCM Latias, as there really isn't anything that it can do to it.

In regards to weatherless HO v Rain Teams; I 100% agree wit Lavos' statement that when I see Rain teams I breath a sigh of relief. I see a standard Rain team and I think, okay good, this will keep to my average turn match because I know very well how it will play out. I won't say perfectly because you obviously get people of varied skill levels, and there might be some weird surprise set on one of the mons which usually only carries certain other sets. Usually though, with my most effective weatherless HO team, I'll dispatch of a rain team in 15-21 turns, depending on the skill level of my opponent, so I think its actually a favorable match up to weatherless, rather than the rain.

@Myzozoa
Rain v weatherless doesn't always guarantee one team will either be at a disadvantage as has been stated in this thread so far, however certain teamstyles will always have advantages over others. I know for instance when I was playing a weatherless Balance, I really didn't like playing offensive rain teams because they caused me a lot of issues, and I really bad to play very well to win, which didn't always happen. Weatherless Stall teams are also a lot harder to play against Rain offense at the moment, so I guess thats another situation where the Rain will have a straight up advantage, provided it packs the necessary heavy hitters eg Tornadus-T.
Although saying that having Deoxys-D unusable makes weatherless unusable? I'm sorry to put it this way, but there really isn't a better way, it completely wrong. There exists a plethora of other Pokes that can do a similar role to that of Deoxys in facilitating a HO weatherless team, you just have to discover them and the correct move sets. I know many players who have used things other than Deoxys for weatherless HO and found great success, myself included. So I think that part of your statement is a little off. My apologies if that comes off as aggressive/rude, although I do strongly disagree with what you've said, and there is evidence to suggest you are not entirely correct.

 

[alkinesthetase]

i'm not sure about latios, since hp fire will do "something" to ferrothorn (especially in neutral weather), but whenever ferrothorn comes in on my latias, i am not in a good mood. sub latias can usually fare okay against ferro (if you mindgame it right, you can easily stall out its gyro ball, and you can sneak in recovers if you're careful), but if you AREN'T running sub, you're basically asking to get leech seeded and twaved, which means you are not really about to set up CMs. even if ferro can't hurt latias, latias can't do sh!t back without hp fire, and ferro accomplishes more by setting up hazards than latias will by CMing. twave also basically crushes latias's usefulness, and its hp fire doesn't hit ferro very hard if you are carrying it (deals like 50% when the weather is neutral). i tend to run supportive CM so i am not usually carrying HP fire. if you can get a few CMs in your HP fire will hurt ferro, but that's assuming it doesn't twave you first, and a twaved latias might as well just curl up in a corner and cry

 

[Joeyboy]

Yeah I don't know about Lavos but the offensive weatherless team I alluded to before doesn't run Deoxys-D. I don't think weatherless offense needs Deoxys-D, nor does it define the play style. He can be a great boon to weatherless offense sure, but as everyone keeps mentioning, our hazard laying friend is having a hard time adjusting to BW2. So I've adapted. Myzozoa mentioned that Rain is more threatening than Sun because it isn't so weak to things like Terrakion, Dragonite and Latios, well then don't use those guys :) Or use some of them plus some guys who threaten Rain teams.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

Why do people automatically associate weatherless offensive with Deoxys-D.. I rarely use Deoxys and very often have a no weather team..

Is it like you have to have a weather starter or deoxys on your team or something?

I've done well on the ladder with the aforementioned lack of Deo-D

 

[Temp V1]

Why do people automatically associate weatherless offensive with Deoxys-D.. I rarely use Deoxys and very often have a no weather team..

Is it like you have to have a weather starter or deoxys on your team or something?

I've done well on the ladder with the aforementioned lack of Deo-D

Well its because back in BW1 when this playstyle became popular, Suicide Lead + 5 sweepers, Deoxys-S was the premier Suicide lead as it could set screens, lay hazards, and just be useful. When it was moved to the Uber tier, Deoxys-D promptly filled its place. On Balance, Normal Offense, or Stall Weatherless teams it is very uncommon to see Deoxys-D, so if you used one of those team styles without Deoxys-D to ladder well, I'm not surprised.

So no you don't need Deoxys-D to have an effective Weatherless offensive team, however it was another Deoxys form which helped originally define Weatherless HO, and now there are plenty of things that can play the same role.

Yeah I don't know about Lavos but the offensive weatherless team I alluded to before doesn't run Deoxys-D. I don't think weatherless offense needs Deoxys-D, nor does it define the play style. He can be a great boon to weatherless offense sure, but as everyone keeps mentioning, our hazard laying friend is having a hard time adjusting to BW2. So I've adapted. Myzozoa mentioned that Rain is more threatening than Sun because it isn't so weak to things like Terrakion, Dragonite and Latios, well then don't use those guys :) Or use some of them plus some guys who threaten Rain teams.

You're right Joey, it doesn't need Deoxys-D, and it wasn't defined by this particular Deoxys form, its just thats what was left after Deoxys-S was gone, so people decided to use it. With my HO teams, Sun is certainly more threatening to play, generally only because of Chloro sweepers, but with priority and screens they too fall very easily. Venusaur is probably the only Chloro sweeper that can pose a threat if you have say only one priority move left and no screens for support, otherwise its easily handled as well. Terrakion I find, is still one of the best members for a Weatherless HO team in the current meta. This is due to the fact that he sports numerous set up sets, and I won't list why else because we all already know. Against a Sun team put Terrakion behind dual screens, set up however you will, and you can seriously plow through teams. That Rock stab really does wreck the majority of Sun teams, and what it doesn't wreck, Close Combat destroys.

 

[chimpact]

Yeah, but you don't really see Ferrothorn outside of the rain, add that to the fact that SDef Ferro is only taking 42.05% - 50% from Specs Latios HP Fire and you've got yourself at least a good check to Latios. To beat Ferrothorn switching in before it gets off an attack, Latios has to a) be Specs, b) predict the Ferrothorn switch-in correctly, c) pray Ferro doesn't have Leftovers, and d) get the maximum possible damage roll both times. I'm not a big fan of Latios v. Ferrothorn myself if I'm the one with the Latios, but hey, you can always get lucky.

The thing about Ferro vs Latios is that Ferro has no reliable recovery. It only has leftovers and leech seed for more HP. There's also chesto rest, but in that case Latios can potentially 2hko on the switch.

I do understand that Specs latios is forced to lock itself into a move so it's not as bad as it looks overall team wise. But ferrothorn is still not going to be my ideal switch.

 

[Myzozoa]

@Myzozoa

Although saying that having Deoxys-D unusable makes weatherless unusable? I'm sorry to put it this way, but there really isn't a better way, it completely wrong. There exists a plethora of other Pokes that can do a similar role to that of Deoxys in facilitating a HO weatherless team, you just have to discover them and the correct move sets. I know many players who have used things other than Deoxys for weatherless HO and found great success, myself included. So I think that part of your statement is a little off. My apologies if that comes off as aggressive/rude, although I do strongly disagree with what you've said, and there is evidence to suggest you are not entirely correct.

I am certainly not completely wrong, though you are entitled to disagree. Deo-D is what made Weatherless Offense work. Basically you should be getting two layers, an advantage that cannot be negated merely by changing the weather. Thats why it could be so consistently good. You claim that there are pokemon that do what Deo-D does which is, unlike my original assertion, actually completely wrong. There are no pokemon that Taunt, SR, Spikes in OU coming off of defensive stats and good speed. It is simply a unique pokemon that far outclasses the other options. Yes there are ways of making weatherless without it, but those ways are necessarily less efficient. You probably won't appreciate this, but without Deo-D weatherless teams are antimetagame trash that really have no affect on the metagame. The offensive versions will just be Heatran, Keldeo, Scizor, Celebi, x, x, a team that tries to beat weather having pokemon that do well within weather. This is a subtle distinction, but in BW1 Deo-D teams where within the mainstream meta, they were good not because they might be strong against weather, but because they were threatening in and off themselves, so threatening that adding weather simply wasn't necessary.

 

[Bl1tzkri3g]

Deo-D is what made Weatherless Offense work. Basically you should be getting two layers, an advantage that cannot be negated merely by changing the weather.

Hate to say it, but this is, in fact, completly wrong. Deo-D is no means the lynchpin of successful weatherless-o; it is simply one way to set up for your sweepers. Saying weather negates the two hazard layers you put up is also wrong, if you manage to get swept by a weather team with 5 healthy pokemon after you sac deo-d, then i'm sorry but that's a teambuilding problem. There are plenty of pokemons that can live a hit from rain/sun/sand enhanced mons and either:
A) Ko the opposing pokemon or
B) Set up in it's face.
Both of which solve the problem.

 

[SpecsX]

Saying weather negates the two hazard layers you put up is also wrong, if you manage to get swept by a weather team with 5 healthy pokemon after you sac deo-d, then i'm sorry but that's a teambuilding problem. There are plenty of pokemons that can live a hit from rain/sun/sand enhanced mons and either:
A) Ko the opposing pokemon or
B) Set up in it's face.
Both of which solve the problem.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding 1 (or both) of you, but it was never stated that setting up weather was a free Rapid Spin, nor that weatherless without Deo-D is impossible, just significantly less easy.

 

[alexwolf]

Myzozoa you are overstating things. I don't think that anyone disagrees that Deoxys-D is the driving force of weatherless HO in OU, but to say that such teams would be trash without him is a huge hyperbole.

HO weatherless teams are certainly viable and can even be very successful without Deoxys-D. Focus Sash Terrakion is a very good lead for such teams, as is Focus Sash Aero, and even Lead Mew. I have seen many successful HO weatherless teams w/o Deoxys-D. And the leads they had actually worked better in their team than Deo-D would, so you can't say it outclasses them. Deo-D is good, no denying that, but he can and will be abused by good players. CB Genesect exists and is a very good way of disposing lead Deo-D. Terrakion and Aerodactyl don't have this problem. Starmie and Tentacruel on the opposing team mean that you can't just lead with Deo-D, and you have to find set-up opportunities instead of mindlessly leading with it. Same with Magic Bounce pokes. But Mew, Terrakion and Aerodactyl don't have this problem. I have many more examples but i think you get the point.

Anyway i don't say i disagree with the statement that Deo-D is one of the defining pokes of HO weather less. But it is not the end of all that you make it be. If HO weatherless is very good right now (it is imo), it would be simply good and an ok team archetype without Deo-D. Less used but would still be a very viable playstyle.

 

[Myzozoa]

Hate to say it, but this is, in fact, completly wrong. Deo-D is no means the lynchpin of successful weatherless-o; it is simply one way to set up for your sweepers. Saying weather negates the two hazard layers you put up is also wrong, if you manage to get swept by a weather team with 5 healthy pokemon after you sac deo-d, then i'm sorry but that's a teambuilding problem. There are plenty of pokemons that can live a hit from rain/sun/sand enhanced mons and either:
A) Ko the opposing pokemon or
B) Set up in it's face.
Both of which solve the problem.

I never said weather negated any hazard layers, if I had said that, I would be blatantly wrong, thank you.

If you get swept because something (volcarona probably) was able to set-up on deo-d, that is team building misconstruction, but I never uttered a word about getting swept by anything, I limited my discussion to what Deo-D can do and why it's so important. As such, please read my posts before telling me that I'm completely wrong. Weatherless is not getting swept by weather, its matchup with Sun and Rain is simply not going to be winnable against competent opponents 65% of the time. That fact is entirely different from 'getting swept.'

@alexwolf, two people in this thread just basically said Deo-D isn't the driving force of weatherless offense, I understand that isn't what you're saying, but there are voices here nonetheless making the ridiculous claim.

Of course those pokemon that you mentioned are very viable alternatives, but think of the implications for the metagame if Weatherless isn't getting 2 layers. The rain match-up is already hard enough, if I can only get SR up that probably won't be enough. If Deo-D can only get 1 layer up now because of things like Genesect, how am I better off using something else that only gets 1 layer and then dies? There is no functional difference between the two. If I'm going to lose to rain because I'm only getting 1 layer, then you are all correct, it doesn't matter if I use Deo-D or something else, I'm still losing.

 

[ganj4lF]

When laddering with my HO weatherless team, I actually dealt with Genesect by using something Scarfed and surprising the opponent with a Scarfed HP Fire / Fire Punch / Flamethrower / whatever. Once Genesect is gone, the main obstacle between Deo-D or whatever SR setter you're using and its layers vanishes and it can happily set up on something (yeah I'm oversimplifying, but I found this strategy to be quite effective even in its simplicity). This is just an example on how you can turn in your favor one of the main toys rain got in BW2, and I have no doubt a creative player can do the same with Tornadus / Thundurus / whatever (Jimbon's Lanturn comes to mind). As I already said, Sun actually restrict your choices much more, and it's much more difficult to have a Sun resilient team that a Rain resilient one, at least for me. Maybe it's just bad teambuilding on my part...

 

[Lavos]

When laddering with my HO weatherless team, I actually dealt with Genesect by using something Scarfed and surprising the opponent with a Scarfed HP Fire / Fire Punch / Flamethrower / whatever. Once Genesect is gone, the main obstacle between Deo-D or whatever SR setter you're using and its layers vanishes and it can happily set up on something (yeah I'm oversimplifying, but I found this strategy to be quite effective even in its simplicity). This is just an example on how you can turn in your favor one of the main toys rain got in BW2, and I have no doubt a creative player can do the same with Tornadus / Thundurus / whatever (Jimbon's Lanturn comes to mind). As I already said, Sun actually restrict your choices much more, and it's much more difficult to have a Sun resilient team that a Rain resilient one, at least for me. Maybe it's just bad teambuilding on my part...

I did this too with my SR Terrakion HO team, ran a Scarf Latios which carried HP Fire, which is a clean OHKO on Scarf Genesect. Less experienced players easily fell into my trap, some of the more experienced ones knew to hard switch out of there but if I knew they were good I'd bluff the HP Fire and use Draco Meteor or whatever.

I don't know how Sun limits your choices, though. It's all in how you perceive it; if you think Sun needs Dugtrio to function 100% of the time then you'll never break that mold for yourself and your teams. However, if you think of weather teams as just your weather starter + any 5 Pokemon your teambuilding will improve drastically as you open yourself up to more options.

 

[ganj4lF]

Maybe you misuderstood, my point was that Sun is more difficult to deal with than Rain is, while playing a HO weatherless team. Venusaur in Sun is a pain to handle when you cannot remove weather from the field, and it basically forces you to run something ridiculously fast (Scarf Latios isn't enough, if the opponent player is smart enough to switch to Timid) or an Ice priority with decent power (Mamoswine, or...Weavile I guess?). Multiple neutral priorities often fail since the thing is fairly bulky even uninvested, and can Giga Drain things to regain health at an alarming rate. I do realize that playing Sun teams doesn't really limit you in any sense, and have played quite a bit of sun without Dugtrio and with uncommon things into it, but I wasn't talking about that. However, my point is probably not too relevant, since it may be due to my still not excellent experience and creativity when dealing with dangerous threats such as Venusaur & co.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Although Modest Venusaur is ridiculously powerful and fast in the sun, nowadays I find that running Timid is the way to go. My sun team lost to a Cloyster sometime ago because nothing on my team could outspeed and kill him, and those that could outspeed weren't strong enough to kill.

But not only can Timid Venusaur outrun a +2 Cloyster, but can also outrun Scarf Latios, and a lot of other things. The power drop was not yet noticeable for me, but the benefits from using a Timid nature were more than noticeable.

Also, my team is not using Dugtrio and is doing fairly well. I am using CB Terrakion instead. Sure, you cannot trap Heatran, but with many Shed Shell Heatran running around, that is not very relevant, and not only Terrakion is more powerful than Dugtrio, it is bulkier and has better STABs. It can scare Heatran with the prospect of Close Combat; even if the next switch-in resists it, it will be taking a lot of damage. Not to mention that Terrakion is a great check to sandstorm teams, and unlike Dugtrio it doesn't lose to Choice Scarf Heatran. Also, it can (better than Dugtrio) exploit the fact that it loses its weakness to Water under sun, surviving many Water-type attacks and striking back with its STAB move of choice.

 

[Lavos]

Yes, Timid Venusaur is better than Modest because it can't get outrun by base 108 scarfers etc.

I disagree with you, ganj4lf, when you say Sun's harder to deal with than Rain if you're running a weatherless HO team. It's not an empirical truth - rather, some weatherless HO teams are weaker to Rain than they are to Sun, and vice versa. If you're packing a lot of dragons but you don't have a Flying resist, you're probably going to be weaker to Rain teams (think myzozoa's HO). If you have a support Rotom-W to check Tornadus-T, but you don't have anything to beat Venusaur once it gets to +2 and your Dragonite's Multiscale is broken, then you're weaker to Sun (think my HO). It's all subjective based on what lineup you have outside of your hazard setter. On second thought, even your hazard setter could affect matchup - SR Terrakion is great against Xatu but awful against Tentacruel, whereas Deoxys-D is the opposite of that (assuming you pack Psycho Boost).

 

[alamaster]

Maybe you misuderstood, my point was that Sun is more difficult to deal with than Rain is, while playing a HO weatherless team. Venusaur in Sun is a pain to handle when you cannot remove weather from the field, and it basically forces you to run something ridiculously fast (Scarf Latios isn't enough, if the opponent player is smart enough to switch to Timid) or an Ice priority with decent power (Mamoswine, or...Weavile I guess?). Multiple neutral priorities often fail since the thing is fairly bulky even uninvested, and can Giga Drain things to regain health at an alarming rate. I do realize that playing Sun teams doesn't really limit you in any sense, and have played quite a bit of sun without Dugtrio and with uncommon things into it, but I wasn't talking about that. However, my point is probably not too relevant, since it may be due to my still not excellent experience and creativity when dealing with dangerous threats such as Venusaur & co.

That's why most if not all good HO teams have strong priority users to help combat the Sun sweepers. The best is probably CB Dragonite, as Extremespeed is extremely powerful and he can take a hit from Venusaur (Arguably the best Sun sweeper). Scizor is another fantastic priority user, but has more trouble against Sun than Dragonite since there's several Fire-types and most Venusaur use HP Fire. He does better against Sawsbuck though.

 

[Temp V1]

I am certainly not completely wrong, though you are entitled to disagree. Deo-D is what made Weatherless Offense work. Basically you should be getting two layers, an advantage that cannot be negated merely by changing the weather. Thats why it could be so consistently good. You claim that there are pokemon that do what Deo-D does which is, unlike my original assertion, actually completely wrong. There are no pokemon that Taunt, SR, Spikes in OU coming off of defensive stats and good speed. It is simply a unique pokemon that far outclasses the other options. Yes there are ways of making weatherless without it, but those ways are necessarily less efficient. You probably won't appreciate this, but without Deo-D weatherless teams are antimetagame trash that really have no affect on the metagame. The offensive versions will just be Heatran, Keldeo, Scizor, Celebi, x, x, a team that tries to beat weather having pokemon that do well within weather. This is a subtle distinction, but in BW1 Deo-D teams where within the mainstream meta, they were good not because they might be strong against weather, but because they were threatening in and off themselves, so threatening that adding weather simply wasn't necessary.

After re-reading what I wrote that did come off as a bit harsh, and I apologize. My point was also kind of blurry so I'll try to quickly clarify that. Everything I have been talking about it Weatherless Hyper Offense, not just Weatherless Offense, so if you interpreted it that way thats my fault for being unclear. With that said I'll be summarizing my points based on the assumption that you are talking about Hyper Offense.

Yes there is an incredibly short list of things that get both Stealth Rocks & Spikes, and Deoxys is alone in a tier who gets both the moves and has the necessary attributes to use them well. As you said you are guaranteed, 99% of the time, to get at least two layers of, possibly more. However you are being very selective in saying that Deoxys-D is one of the defining factors for Weatherless Hyper Offense, simply because the lead spot does not have to always set up numerous layers of entry hazards. It could run screens, or do something else of a supporting nature. So I can't agree with your argument simply due to the fact that you are looking at it from a 'Lead has to put up hazards' perspective, and that isn't necessary for Hyper Offense in this metagame.

To the bolded point; No Weatherless teams without Deoxys aren't trash, a few people in this thread, myself included, have proved through ladder success. They sure aren't changing the landscape of the metagame, which is good because it allows them to generally have the advantage.

Does that sort of clear up what I meant? Again apologizes for the harsh wording of the last post.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

That's why most if not all good HO teams have strong priority users to help combat the Sun sweepers. The best is probably CB Dragonite, as Extremespeed is extremely powerful and he can take a hit from Venusaur (Arguably the best Sun sweeper). Scizor is another fantastic priority user, but has more trouble against Sun than Dragonite since there's several Fire-types and most Venusaur use HP Fire. He does better against Sawsbuck though.

Maybe Dragonite with intact Multiscale can counter Venusaur, but even Extremespeed does not OHKO him, while after Dragonite's Multiscale was broken, +2 Sludge Bomb is a clean OHKO on him.

Speaking of Extremespeed, it is not actually extremely powerful. It is weak and is only useful against frail things or things that have been moderately weakened. I do never use Extremespeed, it's appealing but only useful one time or another, if you really fear Weavile and Mamoswine, you are better off using a Fighting-type partner to check them.

Choice Band Scizor will also never OHKO Venusaur, while it is destroyed by HP Fire. Even Ice Shard from a Life Orb Adamant Mamoswine fails to OHKO Venusaur, the same applies to Jolly Weavile.

All these things can however, 2HKO, and if Venusaur was weakened a bit before, it can actually be OHKOed. But still, no form of priority can OHKO a healthy Venusaur, even after Stealth Rock, even those to wich Venusaur is weak, even without investiment in defenses. After some rounds of Life Orb recoil, Venusaur may be OHKOed, but you can never rely on priority to kill him.

Unfortunately Venusaur is a monster under sun, there are few things that can stop him; Venusaur can actually defeat the pink blobs since it is immune to Toxic, Thunder Wave does not impede Venusaur from destroying the two (but can facilitate the revenge kill) and it can simply Growth to +6 until it uses Giga Drain to 2HKO the blobs and recover the Seismic Toss damage.

The only full stop to him is Heatran as it is immune to HP Fire and Sludge Bomb and 4x resists Giga Drain, but even then, you must be sure that Dugtrio/Terrakion/wathever you use to kill Heatran is killed, or that Heatran is using Shed Shell.

 

[alamaster]

Maybe Dragonite with Fire Punch and intact Multiscale can counter Venusaur, but even Extremespeed does not OHKO him, while after Dragonite's Multiscale was broken, +2 Sludge Bomb is a clean OHKO on him.

Speaking of Extremespeed, it is not actually extremely powerful. It is weak and is only useful against frail things or things that have been moderately weakened. I do never use Extremespeed, it's appealing but only useful one time or another, if you really fear Weavile and Mamoswine, you are better off using a Fighting-type partner to check them.

Choice Band Scizor will also never OHKO Venusaur, while it is destroyed by HP Fire. Even Ice Shard from a Life Orb Adamant Mamoswine fails to OHKO Venusaur, the same applies to Jolly Weavile.

All these things can however, 2HKO, and if Venusaur was weakened a bit before, it can actually be OHKOed. But still, no form of priority can OHKO a healthy Venusaur, even after Stealth Rock, even those to wich Venusaur is weak, even without investiment in defenses. After some rounds of Life Orb recoil, Venusaur may be OHKOed, but you can never rely on priority to kill him.

Unfortunately Venusaur is a monster under sun, there are few things that can stop him; Venusaur can actually defeat the pink blobs since it is immune to Toxic, Thunder Wave does not impede Venusaur from destroying the two (but can facilitate the revenge kill) and it can simply Growth to +6 until it uses Giga Drain to 2HKO the blobs and recover the Seismic Toss damage.

The only full stop to him is Heatran as it is immune to HP Fire and Sludge Bomb and 4x resists Giga Drain, but even then, you must be sure that Dugtrio/Terrakion/wathever you use to kill Heatran is killed, or that Heatran is using Shed Shell.

Well, I never said Dragonite countered Venusaur. It is a check though, and Extremespeed 2hkos while Venusaur fails to OHKO through Multiscale. I also meant that Extremespeed is one of the most powerful priority moves, maybe I should have worded that better. I agree Heatran is the best counter, but I don't see it on HO teams much, unless Flame Charge Heatran is used a lot more these days.

Anyway, I usually treat Venusaur a lot like I treated Salamence back in Dpp. You have to play around it a bit/hope your opponent predicts wrong a couple of times. With Life Orb recoil, after a couple turns it should be in KO range for the priority moves I mentioned. The only differences are that Venusaur has much higher speed than Mence did and has a recovery move. Both have their weaknesses as Mence could get stuck in Outrage and Venu could have have the weather changed on it.

I usually use at least 2 priority users on HO because like you said, nothing OHKOs Saur but most 2hko.

 

[sohomo]

Will choice scarf Haxorus with his new moves now overshadow choice scarf moxie salamance?

 

[alamaster]

I don't think so, mainly because CS Mence is faster than Haxorus and all Haxorus got were coverage moves; the main attack they use is Outrage. Superpower is pretty huge though, as it beats stuff like Balloon Heatran that Mence can't really touch. Aqua Tail is nice to hit Hippowdon/Donphan with something but its not like either Dragon should be staying in on those guys anyway.

 

[SpecsX]

Not to mention Moxie means you can't sack things to Mence as easily as Haxorus.