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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

So did bug buzz, Jellicent can't beat Volcarona anyway, its faster and boosts first after taunts and scald does laughable damagse to a boosted volc. The only way it beats it is if it has life orb.

Gigadrain does have use though because you can pick up health along you sweep, making it less suicidal.
 
Well there is that whole "night shade" thing, which technically is better against anything you'd ever want to use it against,ever. (Well, that or WoW, or recover, or taunt.)

But scald is STAB, so people mindlessly use it.

Edit:Except for gliscor, but honestly, jellicent is a terrible gliscor check.
 
If the metagame settles and isn't another weather clusterf*ck like it has been, I'm probably going to start maining Mamo. Also sounds like he can hit stuff like Tornadus/Thunderus that you pretty much can't do anything against.
 
Immoral Wombat said:
Shuckle gets Shell Smash. Discuss.

On a more serious note, rain Volcarona is serving me pretty well, in a 'fuck you AmoonBro' sorta way.
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My discussion is that it's complete bullshit that Blastoise still doesn't get it. There's not much to say beyond that though, Contrary Shuckle has its uses but combining Shell Smash with Power Split doesn't leave much in the way of other moves.
 
Surprised that noone has mentioned the implications of sleep talk and specifically the two gen 5 bulky pokes that can now abuse it: Throh and Conkeldurr.

Rest talk conkeldurr can beat some gliscor one on one just keep using bulk up on the sub/protect/toxic set for example and then rest.
 
HabibsHotDogs said:
Surprised that noone has mentioned the implications of sleep talk and specifically the two gen 5 bulky pokes that can now abuse it: Throh and Conkeldurr.

Rest talk conkeldurr can beat some gliscor one on one just keep using bulk up on the sub/protect/toxic set for example and then rest.
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Can they use Sleep Talk with Focus Punch? And how will that affect FP's priority?
 
Smogon's page on Sleep Talk said:
It will not select any of Assist, Bide, Bounce, Chatter, Copycat, Dig, Dive, Fly, Focus Punch, Me First, Metronome, Mirror Move, Shadow Force, Sketch, Skull Bash, Sky Attack, SolarBeam, Razor Wind, or Uproar.
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Anyway, with the new Sleep mechanics, the only Pokemon that can really use ResTalk that well are Throh, Conkeldurr, Heracross (maybe) and Milotic, because they directly benefit from it.
 
I think that without Genesect, Garchomp, and Excadrill like DW OU it's hard to say how the meta will eventually turn out. Currently however I'd say rain teams and bulky sand teams will be the majority of the teams used in B2W2. I've been playing on PO and I have only seen two or three sun teams and no hail. The new sets/Pokemon I see being used quite often in rain and sand are Keldeo (R), Breloom, Amoonguss, Conkeldurr, Thundurus T, Tornadus T, Landorus T, more Dragonites (because of Super Power and people using fairly weak teams with all the excitement, more Mamoswine, and an increased usage of Jirachi as well.

The new powerful Pokemon are definitely shifting the meta, but other than Keldeo and Breloom I'd say nothing is too over powering. Regardless of how strong Techniloom is I doubt he will ever cross Uber. Scarf Keldeo in rain however cleans up better than Life Orb Deoxys-S in my opinion, because of it's stab and steel (bullet punch) resist. Not only that but other variants power through stall.
 
I've been using a mono attacking conkeldurr. Atm it's a 252/252 hp/sp def. And the set is drain punch bulk up and rest talk. I use metagross to check tornadus t and the psychics who are all capable of ohkoing conk. Metagross has pursuit/bulletpunch/ice punch/earthquake. Deals incredibly well with alakazam, latios and tornadus but struggles a little against some gengar (who is immune to my conkeldurr).

Using toxic spikes atm to deal with jellicent and celebi, and really the rest of my team is built around supporting conkeldurr. Has been working incredibly well due to the fact that OU is so highly physically dominated you often only need to remove 1 or 2 powerful special attackers before conk can sweep.

Guts boosted sleep talk drain punch is a fantastic way of abusing guts without having to deal with residual damage from burn/toxic, although it's very similar to paralysis, you have a 33% chance of doing nothing.

Oh and from experience hydro pump rotom w can't 2hko conkeldurr without rain, so it's alot bulkier then the 120/136 standard set (before bw2).

As for Throh, the set is circle throw, bulk up and rest talk with the same ev's as conk. It's no snorlax on the special side but after just one bulk up it's significantly harder to take down with physical attacks considering it's only weak to psychic and flying (and not close combat). Being another mono attacker you really need to remove ghosts... which are a lot more problematic in UU :(
 
Thorhammer said:
Genesect is the only one being kept out by more than procedure.
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Why does everyone forget poor little Meloetta? It's technically not released yet.

On another note, I'd like to bring up one Pokemon that seems to go unnoticed. Lanturn. I've been using it on a team, not because I thought it was the best choice, but because I thought it would be fun to use. It's a compromise of both, really. Lanturn is not some sort of OU monster like Dragonite or Keldeo, but it works great as a rain check. Oh, your Tornadus-T tried to Hurricane me? I think I'll tank the next hit and Thunder it now. Oh, your Keldeo tried to Hydro Pump me? I think I'll tank the next hit and Thunder it now. Oh, your Thundurus-T tried to Volt Switch me? I think I'll tank the next hit and Hydro Pump it now. Don't even get me started on what it does to Starmie. Lanturn is admittedly set-up bait for stuff like Breloom, but you don't treat it like a wall. It's a pivot. It won't, for example, absorb Scizor's Superpowers all day. But you get it in on a Bullet Punch, for instance, and it because a real hassle for the opponent. Lanturn may not stop rain like Gastrodon or Ferrothorn, but it's more offensive than both of them and is a real hidden gem I've found. Again, not saying that Lanturn is OU material, but in this rain-infested metagame it really has a niche. Try it out. I should say, though, that once you take a Therian Focus Blast or a Keldeo Secret Sword, Lanturn is normally hurt enough to be beaten by the next sweeper, so Wish support really helps.
 
@Habibs you can use a monoattacking set which is cool, but when I tried it I found Jellicent can just PP stall you and you are prone to crits. Toxic Spikes support is a great idea. However as of now the Kami's are just too hard hitting for it to succeed consistently. If you want to try Rest Talk+BU use Throh! Personally I use Payback on Conkeldurr to hit Jellicent hard with Payback, but it doesn't have as much Sp. Def bulk as yours.

@SlimMan I have seen Lanturn used in OU successfully before BW2 as a great Rotom-W counter. Not only does it check rain nicely, but it can be used as a Cleric which are really in low supply. It can be set up bait but Volt Switch alleviates that nicely

Alright if any team out there needs a spin blocker or a counter to fighting types on a defensive team please check out Cofagrigus. I have been using him to great success in OU and he patches up many holes on my team. Cofagrigus got Pain Split in BW2, which somewhat alleviates his problems with reliable recovery.
Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
Trait: Mummy
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 122 SDef
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Will-O-Wisp
- Haze
- Shadow Ball
- Pain Split

Now a lot of you may be think "what does it have over Jellicent". For starters, it is much more bulky on the physical side and it can tank some pretty nasty physical hits. It is also much slower than Jellicent. While it may be an odd thing to brag it actually allows it to wall Conkeldurr. Speaking of walling Conkeldurr this is where Mummy comes into play. Mummy has a lot of interesting applications in OU. The most important aspect about Mummy is that it allows Cofagrigus to take away Guts from Conkeldurr if it uses Payback meaning you can safely burn it. Some other important applications include giving it a pseudo-resistance to Scizor, stopping Regenerator on Mienshao (or Tornadus if you have the balls to switch into U-turn), and should it ever happen stopping Moxie on Salamence.

The biggest boon for it I have found is Haze. On defensive teams, endgame Pokemon can turn a 6-1 situation to a 0-1 and it can be very hard to incorporate an answer to endgame Pokemon. Perish Song and Haze are the best answers, however their distribution is outright terrible. Well Cofagrigus is one of those Pokes who get it. IMO it puts Cofagrigus in another league compared to other spin blockers, since dealing with stats boosters and not becoming set up bait is something no other defensive spinblocker can do. Mummy cements his ability to deal with late game mons since they fear losing their abilities. Examples of late game Pokes it stops include SD Scizor, SubDD Dragonite, RestoChesto Kingdra, and (lol) Shed Skin Scrafty. Also dealing with baton pass teams (which stall teams struggle against) is nice.

The last thing it can do is deal with Terrakion as well Gliscor. CB Stone Edge only does 1% more to Cofagrigus compared to Gliscor. This is really cool since it was a niche previously only Gliscor, Slowbro, and the very rare Tangrowth had on defensive teams :o
 
That is a very insightful post and a cool use of Cofagrigus, PillsburyDoughBoy! Just wondering - is there really any reason to invest in special defense when it seems like Cofagrigus is primarily used to wall physical threats? I am guessing it may help Cofagrigus spin-block Starmie, but I feel like Starmie would still be able to get past it with relatively little effort.

EDIT - Timid Starmie's Hydro Pump: 44-51% to that Cofagrigus, a solid chance to 2HKO with Rocks. Life Orb is a clean 2HKO.

PS: You are right, Tentacruel's Rain-boosted Scald does 33% max, which barely fails to 3HKO after Rocks :d
 
Pocket said:
That is a very insightful post and a cool use of Cofagrigus, PillsburyDoughBoy! Just wondering - is there really any reason to invest in special defense when it seems like Cofagrigus is primarily used to wall physical threats? I am guessing it may help Cofagrigus spin-block Starmie, but I feel like Starmie would still be able to get past it with relatively little effort.

EDIT - Timid Starmie's Hydro Pump: 44-51% to that Cofagrigus, a solid chance to 2HKO with Rocks. Life Orb is a clean 2HKO.
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Not Starmie but Tentacruel. Tentacruel can only 4HKO Cofagrigus (with a very small chance to 3HKO with Rocks) with Scald in the rain while Cofagrigus bides its time with Shadow Ball+Will-o-wisp+Pain Split. TBH I took the EV's from the onsite analysis and took Cofagrigus with Pain Split for a whirl. However, if Cofagrigus can take on Tentacruel with little or no special defense I would change it in a heartbeat [please show it to be true :*) ]

Running even more defense (say max/max+) would be extraordinarily cool. For starters, Terrakion's Choice Banded Stone Edge would only be able to do 50% max which is crazy (still a 44% chance to 2HKO with SR not counting misses). A guts boosted Conkeldurr would only have one chance to do 33% to Cofagrigus which means it isn't getting past it (haze away Bulk Up). Sand Force boosted Landorus does 35-42%, without Sand it can only manage to do 27%-32% (4hko).

In terms of defensive stats Skarmory is a good comparison on how physically bulky it is. Skarmory vs Cofagrigus. When I played with both of them Cofagrigus is the one to neuter physical attackers while Skarmory racks up the damage against them by phazing. Most of the physical guys that can break past Skarmory, like Conkeldurr, have a tough time breaking past Cofagrigus and vice versa.
 
Why not use Rest Talk set instead? Use Night Shade instead of Shadow Ball. Bulky as hell as you have stated and can just rest off residual damage.
 
1) By going Pain Split, you have the extra slot for Haze & Will-O-Wisp. The beauty of this set comes from the combination of these moves. Rest Talk puts a major restriction on its moveset.

2) Cofagrigus cannot heal as long as it is asleep. Sleep counter resets back to 2 every time it's forced to switch. Most players would be able to force Cofagrigus out before it can wake up.

Yea, Rest Talk is pretty shitty this Gen. It's no wonder why people didn't bother using Cofagrigus defensively when its only means of healing is Rest Talk. In the other hand Pain Split works splendidly, thanks to Cofagrigus's low base HP.
 
Wrave said:
Why not use Rest Talk set instead? Use Night Shade instead of Shadow Ball. Bulky as hell as you have stated and can just rest off residual damage.
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You'll notice when you get forced out. But it seems I got ninja'd.

I'm going to say it now and I'll remember it well; Before sweeping, take out Cofagrigus. Those hits are among the strongest in the meta and being able to not gaf about Guts mons when burning (among others) seems like a godsend for stall teams...and a living hell for offense players (such as myself). Maybe some hidden gem can be found if I dig deep enough myself...
 
Is mixed Hydreigon now more viable with Superpower?

I assume it would just slot in over Earthquake in the current mixed analysis? Any key advantages? Tyranitar and another option to hit Ferrothorn in rain/after a Draco Meteor are what come to mind.
 
alphatron said:
I won't call the current state of things much of a metagame until I'm certain that the new car smell of things has worn off. I will say one thing though.

If you want to actually win games, use mamoswine. If you don't care about winning games, then use other pokemon. I seriously question how we could ever have been at a point where this guy was a low tier OU Pokemon. On every team I make, I have to ask myself, "Alphatron? Why are you not using mamoswine?".

On my sun team, he crushes heatran and dragons. On rain teams, he crushes puny sand Pokemon. On my sand team, he laughs at things that seriously believe they can wall him. Skarmory is a shaky ass wall. 3hko'd by LO icicle crash while risking a constant 30% flinch chance? In hail? Even less is gonna wall mamoswine (save for cresselia...haha!) with the residual damage up.

He only does everything. Need a check to breloom that doesn't lose needless hp thanks to Mach punch and isn't pursuit bait? Sure. Not liking dragons much? He's your man. Want to mangle every weather starter and defensive ninetales? Okay. Want to break stall cores? He has the most impressive resume in OU right now. Think of a problem your team has. Mamoswine is probably the answer.
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Agreed Mamoswine is nuts right now.
 
I would say mixed Hydra is better than ever now. It makes a fantastic Wall breaker being able to 2HKO ferro in rain w/super power and OHKO tyranitar. It can also destroy the common cores of amoongus/jellicent/heatran with fire blast/outrage, dark pulse and earth power respectively.
 
superbadd said:
I would say mixed Hydra is better than ever now. It makes a fantastic Wall breaker being able to 2HKO ferro in rain w/super power and OHKO tyranitar. It can also destroy the common cores of amoongus/jellicent/heatran with fire blast/outrage, dark pulse and earth power respectively.
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BTW, Hydreigon's Fire Blast is a OHKO against ferrothorn in rain after stealth rock damage. Even without it, Ferrothorn will be left with pretty much no health.
 
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