Honchkrow (Leadkrow)

[druin]

Current Analysis

Alright, Honchkrow is an underused lead. He's offensive, similar to Machamp. One of it's biggest selling points is that it can actually beat those Machamp and other common leads. Combine this with a sleep-immunity, and you've got an anti-lead that can be very frustrating to face.

[SET]
name: LeadKrow
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: Superpower
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Taunt / Heat Wave
item: Focus Sash
ability: Insomnia
nature: Jolly / Naive
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe


[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Base 125 Attack and a 120 Base-power STAB move makes Honchkrow a hard hitter to say the very least. Back this up with a secondary 120 BP move and the strongest priority move in the game, and you've got a beast in lead position. Brave Bird OHKOs lead Machamp comfortably. Superpower provides great natural coverage, and has a 90% chance to 2KO lead Aerodactyl. Sucker Punch is great for finishing off Focus Sash leads, and generally does decent damage to anything that does not resist it. Taunt works great with Sucker Punch, although using at the wrong moment can be fatal. If you wish to hit leads such as Metagross, Jirachi, and Forretress harder, you can opt for Heat Wave. In this case a Naive nature would be more beneficial. If you go with Taunt, run Jolly and put the SpA EVs into HP.</p>

<p>With 176 Speed EVs and a +Spe Nature, Honchkrow outruns max speed Tyranitar, who is KOed by Superpower. 252 Attack EVs maximize his hitting power, while the rest are left in HP help him take non-STAB attacks. Insomnia is the preferred ability on this set, as it renders Sleep-inducing leads useless. This set completely shuts down Smeargle with Taunt, and KOs Roserade with Brave Bird. Focus Sash lets Honchkrow stick around for at least one turn (barring a Rock Blast lead) and hopefully take something with it before it goes down. If you manage to keep Honchkrow healthy after facing the opponent's lead (or if you switch it out) it will also provide you with an answer to enemy Breloom throughout the match. </p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Honchkrow tends to have trouble with physically bulky leads, such as Metagross and Swampert. Jirachi also poses problems. Heat Wave</p>

 

[NightShadow]

I think there used to be a lead like this. The problem is that it is kind of outclassed by Machamp. Utterly walled by Swampert and Metagross, while Machamp's Dynamicpunch has confusion.

 

[Nozizaki]

Sucker Punch is great for finishing off Focus Sash leads, and generally does decent damage to anything that does not resist it.

This set completely shuts down Smeargle with Taunt, and KOs Roserade with Brave Bird. </p>

1) Most Lead's would use that turn to Stealth Rock or Taunt. Maybe even roar, so Sucker Punch would only be really helpfully against Azelf that is trying to go Boom.

2)Roselia? WTF?

Overall I think Honchkrow is a choice for an Anti-Lead... plus the fact that he has only one set bugs me.

 

[MetaNite]

This honestly doesn't look too bad. Although not entirely in the correct format, the write up isn't bad either. I like the use of Taunt because that way you don't have to split your Attack EVs so you can effectively use Heat Wave. One thing that does trouble me however, is that due to Brave Bird's recoil you will not be at full health so Focus Sash will not activate. Another item may be better here, although it prevents you from beating Aerodactyl leads. Sharp Beak for example, gives you a good chance to 2HKO Swampert leads. However, you need Life Orb to actually OHKO Heatran leads with Superpower. Your EV spread could be better as well. Honchkrow does not need a Jolly nature. Skarmory almost never runs max Speed while Jolly Tyranitar is either Choice Scarfed or not leading (it would be a Dragon Dancer), so there is no need to go Jolly. Adamant is fine. Mention team options that help against Jirachi, Aerodactyl, and Metagross. Also, Roserade > Roselia. I don't know if it's worth mentioning but Mirror Move can copy Stealth Rock.

 

[thatgirl]

I've used this set before and found it underwhelming, even against Rose leads. Good players are well aware of Insomnia and will heavily damage you with HP ice while you fail to kill with Sucker Punch (Jolly Max Atk Sucker Punch vs 4/0 Roserade 78.2% - 92.7%). Rose will then easily switch out to someone who's faster and won't care about Sucker Punch or can set up(Gyara/Flygon/Mamo/Heatran/Jirachi/SubGar spring to mind). Rose can come back in later since you don't have rocks up. If you opt instead for Brave Bird, you'll die because of the recoil while Rose lives because of sash.

 

[druin]

I think there used to be a lead like this. The problem is that it is kind of outclassed by Machamp. Utterly walled by Swampert and Metagross, while Machamp's Dynamicpunch has confusion.

Walled by Swampert yes, but it's able to take out Machamp before it gets anything done.

1) Most Lead's would use that turn to Stealth Rock or Taunt. Maybe even roar, so Sucker Punch would only be really helpfully against Azelf that is trying to go Boom.

2)Roselia? WTF?

Overall I think Honchkrow is a choice for an Anti-Lead... plus the fact that he has only one set bugs me.

Azelf is lead #1, so the ability to hit it should not be underrated
Changed to Roserade

This honestly doesn't look too bad. Although not entirely in the correct format, the write up isn't bad either. I like the use of Taunt because that way you don't have to split your Attack EVs so you can effectively use Heat Wave. One thing that does trouble me however, is that due to Brave Bird's recoil you will not be at full health so Focus Sash will not activate. Another item may be better here, although it prevents you from beating Aerodactyl leads. Sharp Beak for example, gives you a good chance to 2HKO Swampert leads. However, you need Life Orb to actually OHKO Heatran leads with Superpower. Your EV spread could be better as well. Honchkrow does not need a Jolly nature. Skarmory almost never runs max Speed while Jolly Tyranitar is either Choice Scarfed or not leading (it would be a Dragon Dancer), so there is no need to go Jolly. Adamant is fine. Mention team options that help against Jirachi, Aerodactyl, and Metagross. Also, Roserade > Roselia. I don't know if it's worth mentioning but Mirror Move can copy Stealth Rock.

+ Mirror move
- Whirlwind

Focus Sash is really a must b/c of Honchkrow's low speed. The EV spread is like it is for 2 reasons
1. Around Honchkrow's speed range, there's not many notable things worth outrunning bar Tyranitar. Smeargle and Heatran both outrun it.
2. I could drop all the speed EVs into HP and still outrun Anti-lead Nite, but his bulk is so small that's it's actually not really worth investing in

... Rose can come back in later since you don't have rocks up. If you opt instead for Brave Bird, you'll die because of the recoil while Rose lives because of sash.

Effectively making her death fodder because
1. She did not get spikes down
2. The pokemon sent in after Krow should be able to get Stealth Rock down
3. Any priority will kill her

 

[Venser]

Mirror move should be in AC IMO, it's usually a competitively worthless move.

 

[druin]

Mirror move should be in AC IMO, it's usually a competitively worthless move.

it's pretty much the only way Krow could support it's team, as whirlwind is pretty useless with any hazards. And it's 3rd slash, so it shouldn't be taken as a first choice

 

[Alan]

why put the EVs into HP? it would probably be more beneficial to put them into SpAtk and run a +Spe -(Sp)Def nature and use Heat Wave in the last spot so you can beat Metagross, Jirachi, and Forry more reliably. life orb could also be mentioned as an alernate item as it will allow honchkrow to be more productive throughout the game.

 

[druin]

why put the EVs into HP? it would probably be more beneficial to put them into SpAtk and run a +Spe -(Sp)Def nature and use Heat Wave in the last spot so you can beat Metagross, Jirachi, and Forry more reliably. life orb could also be mentioned as an alernate item as it will allow honchkrow to be more productive throughout the game.

I changed the EV spread around and slashed Heat Wave. i think Sash is still the best item to use, however

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Uh wrong forum.

 

[DarkSlay]

This is definitely more viable than the one that was just recently locked, but I'm still having my doubts about this set.

• It cannot get by Swampert and Metagross (even with Heat Wave, since MMash + BPunch = KO). That's somewhat bad. However, it also loses to Infernape, Jirachi, Heatran (like mentioned earlier, your set does not OHKO and Heatran out-speeds you), and a bunch of other common leads in the metagame.The only leads I see it beating reliably are Machamp, Celebi, Smeargle (kind of), and somewhat Roserade (if it has HP Ice and Sash, you lose). Heck, Aerodactyl can kill you. You both go to Sash, while it then plays mind games with your Sucker Punch (more on that later), putting up SR (its duty). Aerodactyl getting practically a kill AND SR is ludicrous.
• I'm not sold on Sucker Punch being reliably priority, especially in the Lead position. You might bring Azelf down to its Sash, but even at 1%, Azelf can come in and Explode later in the match with proper prediction (fully knowing that Honch cannot set up SR). While in theory Honchkrow beats Azelf, it's a little bit more complicated than that. It's similar to Machamp's problem, who has problems with Azelf switching out of Bullet Punch. Plus, Pokemon that can set up will more often than not continue to set up an extra, unnecessary layer of hazards that should have been prevented by more reliable priority.

I love innovative leads and Pokemon, but Honchkrow really just doesn't stack up. However, I'm not QC, so I'll give you a few opinions on how to make the set and description better:

• Slash Life Orb with Focus Sash. Extra power is nice, and Brave Bird + Focus Sash will give Sash little merit as the main item. You might also want to consider Expert Belt or Sharp Beak.
• Swampert should be mentioned as a partner for Honchkrow. Swampert can dispatch of Heatran easily, while is guaranteed to get SR up on an opposing Swampert with little trouble. Swampert is immune to Electric attacks, and takes neutral from Ice attacks. Honchkrow resists Grass attacks (although still is fragile as heck).

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

oh dearie dearie me

Where do I start?

First, Honch was already REMOVED from the site as a lead by Quality Control, so that's one strike.

Second, there's the oh-so-magical combination of Brave Bird, a recoil move, and Focus Sash.

Third, Sucker Punch is a terrible, terrible way to "finish off suicide leads" because it gives a free switchin for whatever wants to come in, since most suicide leads are completely willing to just sit back and become death fodder later in the game.

Fourth, if this becomes a Life Orb set, you're better off just listing it in AC of the set (not that it matters because lo honch is an incredibly mediocre lead).

Fifth, this lead is slow as balls, so the only leads it can Taunt are Swampert (which is completely willing to blast you off the face of the earth with Ice Beam), Metagross (substitute ice beam for meteor mash + bullet punch), and some of the inferior defensive leads like Skarm, Forry, and Zong.

Sixth, this thing is mediocre as hell midgame. Focus Sash is useless past turn 1 most of the time, it doesn't have the power to threaten a whole lot of the metagame, and need I remind you that it's stunningly slow?

I could keep going, but by now I'm sure you can see why I'm not prepared to re-add a Honchkrow lead any time soon.

QC REJECTED (1/3)

EDIT: This was too good to pass up.

Honchkrow is NOT AN ANSWER to a well-played Breloom. Basically, Breloom Substitutes as Honch comes in, and then what? Honch eats a Focus Punch and dies. Nice answer. Breloom using Spore right out of the gate are doing it wrong, and this Honch can only do something if it comes in against Breloom without a Substitute up, which is a position held by, iunno... anything with a marginally decent neutral attack that has a base speed higher than 70?

 

[Setsuna]

Seven Deadly Sins summed up my thoughts perfectly. Overall, the proposed lead of Honchkrow is just not effective because it basically doesn't accomplish anything. It doesn't prevent any (common) lead from setting up Stealth Rock, it does not have sufficient power as to force opposing leads to switch out, etcetera. We actually rejected a similar set today, which you can find here.

I'm locking this thread without waiting for the third Quality Control rejection. In my opinion, the reasons outlined by both Seven Deadly Sins and I are enough in this case.