DP Suicune

Caelum · Aug 26, 2008

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/suicune

Some Suicune sets I love.

[SET]
name: Offensive Suicune
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Hidden Power Electric
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Normally, Suicune is seen as a tank who needs several turns of setting up to become threatening whereas this offensive Suicune is an immediate threat after a single Calm Mind. The difference lies in the EV allocation and the choice of three offensive moves. Although it won't be tanking as well as a more defensively oriented Suicune it can still take hits reasonably well and strike back quite effectively.

After a single Calm Mind, Suicune can become a powerful sweeper given the impeccable coverage of its move set. Surf is generic STAB. However, Hydro Pump can be used for the higher base power, although the low PP and reduced accuracy is disappointing. Finally, the combination of Ice Beam and Hidden Power Electric gives a pseudo-BoltBeam and with Surf hits everything in the game for at least neutral damage bar Shedinja and Lanturn. Most Suicune carry either Surf and Ice Beam or Surf and Hidden Power Electric which leaves quite a few Pokemon able to wall Suicune and set up themselves. However, when all three of these moves are utilized, a solid counter, outside of Blissey, is hard to come by. For example, after a Calm Mind, Timid Suicune with Life Orb can do 41% - 49% to 188 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon and can 2HKO 100% of the time if Modest.

The given EVs are common for a special sweeper. However, if a more bulky Suicune is desired Leftovers can be used over Life Orb with an EV spread of 172 HP / 120 SpA / 216 Spe with a Timid nature. Timid and 216 Speed EVs let Suicune outrun all Pokemon with base 80 Speed and below.

[SET]
name: SubCune
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam
item: Leftovers
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 104 SpA / 152 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Substitute and Calm Mind Suicune is a bit more defensively oriented than the Life Orb set, but it suits the water legendary well. The idea is to create 101 HP Substitutes to guard it against crippling status effects and Critical Hits. The Substitute will also stand up to a Blissey Seismic Toss, allowing Suicune the luxury of setting up on one of the game's best Special wall with almost complete impunity. Suicune's naturally bulky defensive stats are also a great help in setting this set up; many weaker physical attackers will have trouble breaking the Substitute in just one hit and special attackers will find it nearly impossible after a few Calm Minds. Meanwhile, Suicune can continue to use Calm Mind, throwing up a Substitute every few turns while Leftovers recovery keeps him alive.

Ideally, after all is said and done you should have 6 Calm Minds under your belt. This is where Suicune runs into a bit of a problem. He just misses a 2HKO on Calm Blissey with Surf. While Pressure can help Suicune to stall Blissey out, relying on a critical hit or PP stalling to beat Blissey is an unfortunate consequence of this set. You can dump Speed EVs in favor of more Special Attack, or use Hydro Pump with less Special Attack, but both of these are inferior to the above spread on other Pokémon. Despite these shortcomings, Suicune can still sweep fairly effectively.

The choice in fourth move basically depends on what you want to KO with fewer Calm Minds. Ice Beam will get a OHKO on Garchomp not holding a Yache Berry with no Calm Minds, while Hidden Power Electric will hurt other Waters more effectively, especially Gyarados.

To properly function this set appreciates a Rapid Spinner or a grounded poison type to remove Toxic Spikes which can cripple this set and a Rain Dancer since the ability to set up is hindered if Leftovers recovery is taken away every turn from Sandstorm damage. Wish support is also helpful since Substitute can quickly drain Suicune's health.

kd24 · Aug 26, 2008

Hydro Pump should really be listed as a slash, just not given a mention in set comments. Your choice though.

set comments time!

Normally, Suicune is seen as a bulky tank who needs several turns of setting up to become threatening, whereas offensive Suicune is an immediate threat after a single Calm Mind. The difference lies in the EV allocation and the choice of three offensive moves. Although it won't be tanking as well as a more defensively oriented Suicune, it can still take hits reasonably well and strike back quite effectively.

Suicune tanks really, not wall.

After a single Calm Mind, Suicune can become a powerful sweeper given the impeccable coverage provided of its moveset. Surf is generic STAB and the combination of Ice Beam and Hidden Power Electric gives a pseudo-BoltBeam which makes Suicune's normal counters become questionable. Most Suicune carry either Surf and Ice Beam or Surf and Hidden Power Electric which leaves quite a few Pokemon able to wall Suicune and set up themselves. However, when all three of these moves come together a solid counter outside of Blissey is hard to come by. For example, after a Calm Mind, Timid Suicune with Life Orb can do 41% - 49% to 188 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon and can 2HKO 100% of the time if Modest.

needs a comma after calm mind

The given EVs are common for a special sweeper, however, if a more bulky Suicune is desired Leftovers can be used over Life Orb with an EV spread of 172 HP / 120 SpA / 216 Spe with a Timid nature. Timid and 216 Speed EVs allow Suicune to outrun maximum speed base 80 Pokemon such as Mamoswine. Hydro Pump can also be used over Surf for the higher base power but due to the accuracy and low PP, Surf is usually the superior option.

already used generic once. If its max speed, then its obvious it would have a +speed nature so just say "mamoswine".

Next set!

[SET COMMENTS]
Much like its fellow legendary dog Raikou, Suicune is capable of doing the Substitute and Calm Mind bit. What makes this a viable option on Suicune is its ability to make 101 HP Substitutes allowing it to beat Seismic Toss Blissey one on one without having to resort to Rest. Substitute also allows Suicune to block status hits or Leech Seed.

its, not it's.

The given EVs allow Suicune to make 101 HP Substitutes which are unbreakable by a single Seismic Toss and 152 Speed EVs allow Suicune to outrun Jolly Tyranitar. The remaining EVs were placed in Special Attack for power.

If you can't even 2hko blissey, why mention it? That is somewhat unappealing when you read a sweeper with 6 cms cant even 2hko a special wall.

bolt. · Aug 26, 2008

On subcune, hp electric needs to be an option over ice beam.

cim · Aug 28, 2008

The Sub/CM comments need a lot of work, tbh. They're very brief and the whole thing kind of runs on. Would you mind if I revised them and posted a potential replacement?

Caelum · Aug 28, 2008

Chris is me said:
The Sub/CM comments need a lot of work, tbh. They're very brief and the whole thing kind of runs on. Would you mind if I revised them and posted a potential replacement?

That's fine. It seemed obvious to me so I didn't not what to say. Just post them whenever you have them done.

Edit: And I'll edit in KD24s changes later tonight. I probably should have explained how Suicune beats Blissey 1 on 1. It's not a guaranteed thing but by using Substitute while using Surf a critical hit will eventually happen, meaning blissey generally loses. I've never been in a situation where it hasn't despite the lack of damage.

Serv · Aug 28, 2008

defensively oriented Suicune's

Am I missing something here or what? :/ What's with the apostrophe s after Suicune. Just an "s" will do seeing as you're not expressing ownership, etc.

impeccable coverage provided of its move set.

"by" over "of" or alternatively you could just remove "provide" and stick with "of".

is it's ability to make

"its" over "it's".

allowing it to be Seismic Toss Blissey one on one without having to resort to Rest

"beat" not "be".

Thanks have a nice day ^^.

cim · Aug 28, 2008

Substitute - Calm Mind Suicune is a bit more defensively oriented than the Life Orb set, but it suits the water dog well. The idea is to create a 101 HP Substitute to guard against crippling status effects. The Substitute will also stand up to a Blissey Seismic Toss, allowing Suicune the luxury of setting up on the game's best Special wall with almost complete impunity. Suicune's naturally bulky defensive stats are also a great help in setting this set up; many weaker physical attackers will have trouble breaking the Substitute in just one hit. Meanwhile, Suicune can use Calm Mind, throwing up a Substitute every few turns while Leftovers recovery keeps him alive.

Ideally, after all is said and done you should have 6 Calm Minds under your belt. This is where Suicune runs into a bit of a problem. He just misses a 2HKO on Calm Blissey with Surf. While Pressure can help Suicune to stall Blissey out, relying on a critical hit or PP stalling to beat Blissey is an unfortunate consequence of this set. You can dump Speed EVs in favor of more Special Attack, or use Hydro Pump with less Special Attack, but both of these are inferior to the above spread on other Pokémon. Despite these shortcomings, Suicune can still sweep fairly effectively.

The choice in fourth move basically depends on what you want to KO with fewer Calm Minds. Ice Beam will get a OHKO on most Garchomp with no Calm Minds, while Hidden Power Electric will hurt other Waters more effectively, especially Gyarados.

Caelum · Aug 28, 2008

Made the fixes suggested above and added Chris's comments over mine since they were better.

cim · Aug 28, 2008

Oh, one little thing: after "crippling status effects", add "as well as Critical Hits". otherwise, whole thing looks solid.

junior · Aug 29, 2008

[SET COMMENTS]
Normally, Suicune is seen as a tank who needs several turns of setting up to become threatening whereas this offensive Suicune is an immediate threat after a single Calm Mind. The difference lies in the EV allocation and the choice of three offensive moves. Although it won't be tanking as well as a more defensively oriented Suicune, it can still take hits reasonably well and strike back quite effectively.

Removed 'bulky' because 'tank' already implies that the standard Cune is bulky. Removed 'right' because it isn't necessary and doesn't sound as good without it, imo.

After a single Calm Mind, Suicune can become a powerful sweeper, given the impeccable coverage of its move set. Surf is generic STAB. However, Hydro Pump can be used for the higher base power, although the low PP and reduced accuracy is disappointing. The combination of Ice Beam and Hidden Power Electric gives a pseudo-BoltBeam, which makes Suicune's normal counters become questionable (questionable for what? I can see what you're trying to imply, although it doesn't really since it is a bad word placement). Most Suicune carry either Surf and Ice Beam or Surf and Hidden Power Electric which leaves quite a few Pokemon able to wall Suicune and set up themselves. However, when all three of these moves are utilized, a solid counter, outside of Blissey, is hard to come by. For example, after a Calm Mind, Timid Suicune with Life Orb can do 41% - 49% to 188 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon and can 2HKO 100% of the time if Modest.

In that second sentence, I don't like how you use two "negative" conjunctions. I'd break it up into two.

The given EVs are common for a special sweeper. However, if a more bulky Suicune is desired, Leftovers can be used over Life Orb with an EV spread of 172 HP / 120 SpA / 216 Spe with a Timid nature. Timid and 216 Speed EVs let Suicune outrun all Pokemon with a base 80 Speed and below.

That last bit was kind of weird, about max speed and base 80 speed.

[SET]
name: SubCune
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Electric
item: Leftovers
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 104 SpA / 152 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Substitute and Calm Mind Suicune is a bit more defensively oriented than the Life Orb set, but it suits the water dog well. The idea is to create 101 HP Substitutes to guard it against status effects. The Substitute will also stand up to a Blissey Seismic Toss, allowing Suicune the luxury of setting up on one of the game's best Special wall with almost complete impunity. Suicune's naturally bulky defensive stats are also a great help in setting this set up; many weaker physical attackers will have trouble breaking the Substitute in just one hit. Meanwhile, Suicune can use Calm Mind, throwing up a Substitute every few turns while Leftovers recovery keeps him alive.

Either use 'and' or '/'. '-' doesn't mean 'and' etc.

Also, give a mention about taking special attacks as well. You mentioned about both attacks, gave a 'backup' for the physical spectrum and you just suddenly stop there. It doesn't sound good.

2nd paragraph snip

Seems fine.

The choice in fourth move basically depends on what you want to KO with fewer Calm Minds. Ice Beam will get a OHKO on most Garchomp with no Calm Minds, while Hidden Power Electric will hurt other Waters more effectively, especially Gyarados.

I actually question your claim about scoring an OHKO on Garchomp. While that may be true theoretically, practically, it isn't as majority of Garchomps are Yache Berry variants.

Also, you should include a paragraph on supports they may want for this Suicune (spinner, or perhaps a weather changer or wishpasser).

Slobroking · Aug 29, 2008

ice beam is much better then hp electric on the subcm set. gyarados will get hurt by a boosted ice beam anyway if it switches in, especially with stealth rocks up. other waters will lose due to calm mind, substitute and pressure

without ice beam you will lose to celebi, zapdos, dragons and more.

cim · Aug 30, 2008

Slobroking said:
ice beam is much better then hp electric on the subcm set. gyarados will get hurt by a boosted ice beam anyway if it switches in, especially with stealth rocks up. other waters will lose due to calm mind, substitute and pressure

without ice beam you will lose to celebi, zapdos, dragons and more.

Uh..... Taunt? Taunt Gyarados makes all those boosts you're talking about not happen.

Without Ice Beam, Zapdos isn't going to be beating this set more than with it, as Electric doesnt resist water and you can CM up to an extent. Celebi can't do anything to Sub/CM except Perish Song, which Ice Beam wouldn't stop anyway. Dragons, maybe.

Slobroking · Aug 30, 2008

you calm mind, gyarados switches in and takes 25% assuming stealth rock is up. you ice beam, gyarados does something, you ice beam again. and it's not like all gyarados can outspeed it because this suicune has good speed.
celebi can grass knot and then leech seed and/or calm mind, but you will do good damage to it with (boosted) ice beam. giving dragons(especially with dragon dance) a free turn isnt a good idea either. although if you desperately need something to switch in gyarados then hp electric can be viable. but I see subcm suicune more as a sweeper then a counter to stuff.

(imo)

cim · Aug 30, 2008

Celebi can't leech seed if you have a Sub up, and every Calm Mind makes Grass Knot weaker. Calm Mind passing Celebi I haven't seen much. Dragons are an issue, hence HP Electric is secondary to Ice Beam but standard MixMence isn't touching Suicune entirely thanks to Substitute, since Draco Meteor is what he'd be breaking the Sub with and thus taking the attack drop.

Invective · Aug 31, 2008

Caelum said:
Ice Beam will get a OHKO on most Garchomp with no Calm Minds,

it should read "an OHKO"

Aeolus · Aug 31, 2008

Please never refer to Suicune as a "water dog" or any other sort of dog. This isn't (Atq)... this is Smogon. If I read that in one of our analyses I might throw up. Ugh... c'mon people.

Caelum · Aug 31, 2008

Aeolus said:
Please never refer to Suicune as a "water dog" or any other sort of dog. This isn't (Atq)... this is Smogon. If I read that in one of our analyses I might throw up. Ugh... c'mon people.

rofl. Apparently I was the only one that got the The Call of the Wild reference. I'll edit it out sometime later since I'm about to leave.

Edit: Added some thing on support that Junior mentioned and his corrections.

Any other comments?

jrrrrrrr · Sep 4, 2008

Ok, this thread is done so if nobody has any problems, I'll add these sets to the analysis in a bit.

edit- added

LoveDensity · Sep 6, 2008

I dunno if I can still recommend another Suicune Set in this thread after being added, but i'll try anyways. I used another Suicune with outstanding success. It's similar to the Offensive Suicune set and the EV spread is similar to the SubCune set, so it could be other options(or it just worked perfectly for my team.) If not, I might post it in another thread and explain this set more.

name: Bulky Sweeper
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Surf
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Hidden Power Electric
item: Leftovers/Expert Belt
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
ivs: 30 SpA

This set is able to take hits from both attacking spectrums and force switches or deal damage to the opposition. Expert Belt Ice Beam 2ohkos Celebi most of the time.HP Electric is almost always an ohko on Gyarados if it doesn't have wacan berry equipped.

----

edit: Also I haven't tried an Modest version yet, so I'll test it as well.
Update: Nah I like the bold spread, but modest version works well on things like vappy.

highstakespkmn · Sep 7, 2008

on the first set, I think you have to consider a middle ground item as an option because suicune still has good defenses even with a totally offensive spread, expert belt and even mystic water or wiseglasses can help it get some extra power while still being able to take a few hits.

we can always max out suicune's special attack rather than giving it speed EV's in the sub set. its not like those EV's are THAT important, what are we trying to outrun anyway? most of the things that are going to eventually kill it are faster than it anyway. of course as suggested, hydro pump and hp electric are options too, and very good ones at that. its worth noting suicune is going to counter gyarados with hp electric, but still isnt going to be an awesome dragon counter, even with ice beam unless you give it some more defenses, even then its beatable.

Caelum · Sep 7, 2008

I'm not trying to be rude guys but this thread has been up for a while and you could have posted some of these suggestions before it was put on site :/.

To be honest though, I don't think anything either of you said is worth mentioning. It's one of those things where it's not really different enough that a person of average intelligence and knowledge could easily come up with those variations of the set if they so desired. I don't think it's necessary at all personally but I don't know what others think.

highstakespkmn · Sep 8, 2008

I think you're a dick

cim · Sep 8, 2008

I think that's flaming.

I'm pretty sure it would be better for people to make a new thread with a suggested set, as these sets are on site already and thus this thread isn't useful.

The "bulky sweeper" set looks like an inferior combination of the standard set with the Life Orb set.

we can always max out suicune's special attack rather than giving it speed EV's in the sub set. its not like those EV's are THAT important, what are we trying to outrun anyway? most of the things that are going to eventually kill it are faster than it anyway.

What it ouruns and the option of maxing Special Attack have been mentioned in the set comments.

Caelum · Sep 8, 2008

Yeah, I'm not even going to respond to that.

Anyway, since I like to give even sets I doubt are viable a chance through play testing (because that's what arrogant dicks do) I really have to say I wasn't impressed. If you want to go bulky just use the standard CM Suicune or Crocune if you want offensive just use the LO version. A middle of the ground version played just as one would expect, rather average.

Cynthia · Sep 8, 2008

The middle version is quite effective IMO, so I suggest that it stay. Not every set needs to be 252/252/4 you know.

DP Suicune

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