-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2024 Smog Awards!
DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Way to unnecessarily point out an obvious typo. I am also aware that Shadow Claw has a high crit rate, but that isn't needed when doing damage calculations. I don't spend my time pointing out your mistakes and logical fallacies (hint: I don't have that kind of time), so please show me the same respect.
Slaking is a good counter to Zangoose. It's faster, has massive physical defenses (9th best in the game), and with Truant it could possibly work in UU. =)
Let in Donphan and it could take an Adamant Swords Danced Return and OHKO with Earthquake. If it has Ice Shard, the spread needed to OHKO is even more fluid, as all Donphan needs is to survive the Return, then it can EQ + Ice Shard for the guaranteed 2HKO, as long as Zangoose lacks Quick Attack. If it has Quick Attack, it would just kill itself with LO recoil as it kills Donphan. Donphan's lack of Speed and wimpy Special Defense (it's roughly equivalent to Shiftry, Plusle, and Rampardos in terms of special defensiveness) mean that it's not going to be sweeping any team with Speed in UU.
Aerodactyl can go Jolly and still OHKO with Life Orb Stone Edge most of the time.
Ambipom's Jolly Life Orb Fake Out does 55% min. It can then follow up with anything for the KO.
And if we are considering Zangoose, then Tauros definitely needs some looking at. It trades quite a bit of offense for more Speed. It loses Close Combat for Earthquake. Instead of Night Slash you get Iron Tail. Tauros has a better ability (Intimidate) but no Swords Dance or Quick Attack. Moreover, Tauros can take on Zangoose. Jolly Life Orb Tauros has a good chance at OHKOing with Return (and Tauros is faster, even if it's Adamant and Zangoose is Jolly). Intimidate means it can switch into even Adamant Close Combat from LO Zangoose once.
There are also Staraptor, Arcanine, Houndoom, Typhlosion, Charizard, and a wealth of other Pokemon that fall into the category of "faster than Zangoose" which usually means death for it.
Let in Donphan and it could take an Adamant Swords Danced Return and OHKO with Earthquake. If it has Ice Shard, the spread needed to OHKO is even more fluid, as all Donphan needs is to survive the Return, then it can EQ + Ice Shard for the guaranteed 2HKO, as long as Zangoose lacks Quick Attack. If it has Quick Attack, it would just kill itself with LO recoil as it kills Donphan. Donphan's lack of Speed and wimpy Special Defense (it's roughly equivalent to Shiftry, Plusle, and Rampardos in terms of special defensiveness) mean that it's not going to be sweeping any team with Speed in UU.
Aerodactyl can go Jolly and still OHKO with Life Orb Stone Edge most of the time.
Ambipom's Jolly Life Orb Fake Out does 55% min. It can then follow up with anything for the KO.
And if we are considering Zangoose, then Tauros definitely needs some looking at. It trades quite a bit of offense for more Speed. It loses Close Combat for Earthquake. Instead of Night Slash you get Iron Tail. Tauros has a better ability (Intimidate) but no Swords Dance or Quick Attack. Moreover, Tauros can take on Zangoose. Jolly Life Orb Tauros has a good chance at OHKOing with Return (and Tauros is faster, even if it's Adamant and Zangoose is Jolly). Intimidate means it can switch into even Adamant Close Combat from LO Zangoose once.
There are also Staraptor, Arcanine, Houndoom, Typhlosion, Charizard, and a wealth of other Pokemon that fall into the category of "faster than Zangoose" which usually means death for it.
lol, awesome post Obi.
If we were to actually go ahead with the "add everything in BL" plan, I doubt Zangoose would be at the top of the pecking order.
As it stands now though, I see it as being even more overpowered than Garchomp in OU . . .
If we were to actually go ahead with the "add everything in BL" plan, I doubt Zangoose would be at the top of the pecking order.
As it stands now though, I see it as being even more overpowered than Garchomp in OU . . .
Whats your point? Empoleon can help wall Venomoth, maybe we should bring that down, Mespirit and Slowbro can help against the Fighting types in UU, maybe we should bring those down as well. Hmm if we bring down Regirock and Registeel we can wall Swellow even better, maybe they would make some great addditions to UU. Hey why not go even further? Lets bring down Lugia so we dont have to bother banning Garchomp or Groudon so we can finally have a true counter to Tyranitar. =)
Sure, sounds like a great idea.
And on the note of Tauros, it was up for discussion a while ago, but more people rejected it than accepted it due to it's relatively high Defense stat with Intimidate coupled with its decent Attack stat, however it can always be revisited.
Unless of course we wanted to apply Obi's idea to the current ladder. That's the problem with UU the moment; the fact that a forward progression is possible but there being nothing down in writing that suggests where the line should be drawn. I'm still all for the separate ladders idea though, in the interests of keeping the peace.
If you had read my recent posts you would have seen that I did not say this directly. I said UU has a great offensive physical bias towards it and Weezing could help to weaken that bias.
Fighting pokemon are some of the pokemon that help form that bias and Weezing helps to neuter them somewhat as well as some other physical threats without being overpowering, but i did not say "I would like to bring down Weezing just so we could have a Fighting type counter"
Obviously the scenarios work, thats not my point, Obi's scenarios work just fine as well but do you honestly think I suggested those pokemon with an actual intention of them becoming UU. It's pretty obvious to any decent UU player that they will cause trouble in the tier.
I pretty distinctly remember the suggestion due to "Fighting dominance", at least initially.
If you read my first few posts on Weezing you will see that I never mentioned anything about Fighting types. I more mentioned trying to balance out such a hyper offensive tier than anything else.
I mainly used Fighting types when pointing out examples with Weezing because they are some of the biggest physical offensive forces in UU and also, the majority of people that referenced Weezing actually brought them up as examples themselves.
Obi, my objection to Zangoose in UU wasn't considering the somewhat radical "let's restart the metagame" plan you have. Please don't debate counters to Zangoose in UU with currently BL Pokémon. These are separate issues.
Sounds fair. If you ever find the time PM me!
Sounds fair. If you ever find the time PM me!
I have concerns about weezing, i really think combining it with steelix it will be hard to beat, and do we need yet another 110+ defence pokemon in UU, in recent times we have gained drapeon (110) leafeon (130) steelix (200).
weezing also means fighting resist and levitate means ground is useless, it also has will-o-wisp to further dent physical pokemon.
miltank looks like an interesting prospect
shedinja - it should fit in UU the weakneses sheddy has seem to be used often enough in UU.
aerodactyl - this one i'm not sure either way, high speed, taunt access to a fair few heavy hitting physical moves, this might be good for the aformentioned steelix and possibly weezing but it could ruin some of the current established pokes (persian for example)
articuno - definatly worth a shot, can't see anything wrong with it.
venusaur- a good possibilty i see no problem with it.
but if things are being moved down, what about up?
weezing also means fighting resist and levitate means ground is useless, it also has will-o-wisp to further dent physical pokemon.
miltank looks like an interesting prospect
shedinja - it should fit in UU the weakneses sheddy has seem to be used often enough in UU.
aerodactyl - this one i'm not sure either way, high speed, taunt access to a fair few heavy hitting physical moves, this might be good for the aformentioned steelix and possibly weezing but it could ruin some of the current established pokes (persian for example)
articuno - definatly worth a shot, can't see anything wrong with it.
venusaur- a good possibilty i see no problem with it.
but if things are being moved down, what about up?
Is the opposition to Weezing really Low? I personally think Weezing's going to turn UU into a stallfest because physical attackers can't break it, and special attackers already have serious issues with Clefable. It's only weak to Psychic which is almost impossible to exploit (Psycho Cut Absol +...?)
The other ones are worth testing IMO, though I have a lot reservations about Aerodactyl. It has counters, but it outspeeds everything not named Electrode and hits pretty hard.
Kabutops, Clefable, Leafeon, Scyther, and Ninetales were the last ones discussed for a move up.
Scyther is harmed a lot by Stealth Rock weak and can be walled pretty easily depending on the set.
I don't know why Leafeon is there. It's useful, but a lot of things stop it easily.
Ninetales doesn't have enough moveslots to stop all counters and Hynoplot, fairly easy to wall.
Clefable and Kabutops have the most merit in my mind. Clefable is pretty much a universal wall, especially on the special side, and easily cripples or kills Fighting types switching in. Kabutops can be stopped by Quagsire but rips through everything else rather easily.
The other ones are worth testing IMO, though I have a lot reservations about Aerodactyl. It has counters, but it outspeeds everything not named Electrode and hits pretty hard.
Kabutops, Clefable, Leafeon, Scyther, and Ninetales were the last ones discussed for a move up.
Scyther is harmed a lot by Stealth Rock weak and can be walled pretty easily depending on the set.
I don't know why Leafeon is there. It's useful, but a lot of things stop it easily.
Ninetales doesn't have enough moveslots to stop all counters and Hynoplot, fairly easy to wall.
Clefable and Kabutops have the most merit in my mind. Clefable is pretty much a universal wall, especially on the special side, and easily cripples or kills Fighting types switching in. Kabutops can be stopped by Quagsire but rips through everything else rather easily.
Its already been mentioned that there are some physical attackers that can break through Weezing's Defense and either way it doesn't exactly have the best Special Defense or greatest offense so I doubt it could really cause too much trouble being introduced into UU.
Swords Dance Scyther isn't exactly walled by anything in UU, but Scyther really seems to have been neutered by the presesnce of Stealth Rock, Steelix and Drapion so I think we can leave it for now unless it is found to be causing too much trouble.
I do agree with you about Kabutops but i've elaborated quite a few times why I think Clefable shouldn't be banned. It's 95/73/90 defenses aren't exactly the best and Clefable despite its decent Special Defense still has trouble with some of UUs Special Attackers. Most peoples problems with Clefable seem to stem simply from the fact that it is annoying to deal with.
I wouldn't like to see everywhere a Weezing in UU although it helps with Hitmons and Toxicroak, but it will be like Blissey in the physical spectrum in UU. But we should give it a shoot and try it.
I don't know what happens with Ninetales, Scyther and Leafeon. Ninetales is walled by Hypno, ResTalk Lanturn or ResTalk Grumpig with no problems. Scyther will do nothing to Steelix because of Roar and Stealth Rock, which are always used in Steelix's sets. Finally, Leafeon is a good SD passer and it's strong, but Steelix or Drapion stop it and can PHaze its dances.
However I have the same issues with Clefable and Kabutops as Cynthia. I don't mind Clefable so much, because Hitmonlee is a great counter to every set but Facade one, which is completely stopped by Steelix and other Steel types.
But Kabutops is different, I see it too strong for UU, and with Rain... it's too strong, and its only counters are Quagsire and with some luck, Scarf Golduck with Focus Blast or HP Grass. It doesn't need rain to sweep, with Swords Dance Stone Edge, Aqua Jet and X-Scissors means gg if you don't have Quagsire or a bulky water (in UU... Blastoise).
I don't really like the idea of Venusaur in UU. It's stronger that its grass partners in UU, with best Special Attack, and maybe better supportive sets.
I don't know what happens with Ninetales, Scyther and Leafeon. Ninetales is walled by Hypno, ResTalk Lanturn or ResTalk Grumpig with no problems. Scyther will do nothing to Steelix because of Roar and Stealth Rock, which are always used in Steelix's sets. Finally, Leafeon is a good SD passer and it's strong, but Steelix or Drapion stop it and can PHaze its dances.
However I have the same issues with Clefable and Kabutops as Cynthia. I don't mind Clefable so much, because Hitmonlee is a great counter to every set but Facade one, which is completely stopped by Steelix and other Steel types.
But Kabutops is different, I see it too strong for UU, and with Rain... it's too strong, and its only counters are Quagsire and with some luck, Scarf Golduck with Focus Blast or HP Grass. It doesn't need rain to sweep, with Swords Dance Stone Edge, Aqua Jet and X-Scissors means gg if you don't have Quagsire or a bulky water (in UU... Blastoise).
I don't really like the idea of Venusaur in UU. It's stronger that its grass partners in UU, with best Special Attack, and maybe better supportive sets.
To be honest I don't see how UU will become any more stall based than it is currently ...
Golduck doesn't need the scarf ... Cloud Nine nullifies Swift Swim, and Golduck has base 85 speed to Kabutops 80.
Unless your opponent happens to be running Flamethrower/Fire Blast as is its secondary attack ... Probopass wouldn't be too bothered, but Steelix and Aggron wouldn't like it.
I personally believe that to be a gross overexaggeration for reasons that should be all too obvious.
I use Vacuum Wave Toxicroak and have therefore never had severe problems with it.
There's also the fact that, despite Water/Rock being a killer STAB combo, it is also a rather awful defensive typing that gives it at least one weakness that can be exploited by almost every common UU Pokemon.
Oh btw, that particular set you posted is easily countered by Steelix. Super-effectiveness isn't everything.
EDIT: Hitmontop too, apparently.
It would definitely outclass Vileplume in most areas, but not all. If you're in need of a sturdy Cleric or Sunny Day sweeper, Vileplume's your plant.