CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 6.5 (BST Spillover)

[Lord Gloom]

Here's my spread.

105/72/95/115/79/70

HP: Bulky enough. I know there are advocates of SubSeeding out there, and since that's hardly the main concern of what's to come of this Pokemon, I think it's fair enough to have good HP because a) it breaks the mould set by other Fire Pokemon, and b) only requires 212 HP EVs to reach 101 subs, so there are some spare for some more varied EV spreads.

Attack: The attack is at a level where it's usable, but not great by any stretch. 72 is a very special number, because even with a Life Orb Max+ Power Whip, the most this Pokemon can possibly deal without a critical is 319 damage to a Tentacruel running 320 HP. Other relevant Power Whip checks:

Max+ Suicune - 248-294
Max+ Hippowdon - 246-290
Max+ Donphan - 242-288
Max+ Gliscor - 118-139
Minimum Tyranitar - 354-416 (look at me i am important)
Max+ Swampert - 580-688
239 (Bulky) Gyarados - 187-222
Max+ Slowbro - 254-302
Max+ Weezing (no burn) - 60-72
Max+ Weezing (with burn) - 30-36 (ouch!)
Max Cresselia - 67-79

So, a surprise Physical or Mixed set isn't entirely out there, but don't expect it to take any precidence over a Leech Seed/Bulky Sweeper set.

Defense: The 95 Defense has a real purpose, but since it ties so much into the fight against TTar, I'll just skip the explanation here and let you read on to obtain the importance of the 95 Defence.

Special Attack: I know I said that I think 115 SpA is too much, but after looking at the Max+ SpA Energy Ball versus TTar (176-210 damage), I found something interesting in the fact that there is a very, very slim chance that TTar won't be 2HKOed by this. This gets interesting in the fact that a CBTar's Stone Edge will always OHKO this Pokemon unless it's running Max HP/Max+ Defense, in which then it has a very small chance to live. So, obviously, if I predict the TTar switch and drop an Energy Ball, most of it comes down to who outspeeds who, right? Well, it gets even more interesting down the road...

Special Defense: This ended up being my compromise with the high BST, but it worked out decently. It might actually work out pretty nicely without Leftovers, but we can't really change that since all the other stats are set out very specifically that I can't really lower this without throwing the other finely balanced stats out of proportion.

So again, discounting Leftovers, Tokekiss would be guaranteed a 3HKO exactly on the dot against Max/Max+ EV spread. Any Min SpD variant is 2HKOed by a decent margin. Considering that Togekiss can take those Fire Blasts that aren't under Sunny Day pretty well, he makes a decent soft counter.

Speed: For the record, I hate hard counters. I don't want Tyranitar to be a hard counter. Hard counters just make the game all about what team can get the best hard coverage of the big threats. Soft counters, in my opinion, make the game much more open to influence/interpretation by players themselves, which ultimately leads to new strategies for old Pokemon. 70 base speed gives a minimum 176 speed. This sits exactly one point above Tyraniboah, but 31 below a standard CB build. Therefore, to outspeed Tyranitar, a minimum of 128 EVs are needed in speed. Though this isn't unmanagable, it is a significant enough investment that it should be something taken into consideration. To outspeed a minimum Togekiss, it will need 84 EVs input. This base speed will keep this Pokemon and Tyranitar/Togekiss in direct competition.

OTHER JUNK:

Tankiness: 2309.6392857142857142857142857143

Sweepiness: 192.52776066269596768672554254809

Speed Factor: .55

Rating: 445.83 (Good)

 

[Mekkah]

Good thing Flying is only effective on Fighting, Bug and Grass, and I know some are rooting for Electric next time, so I don't think it has a chance of happening again soon.

EDIT: Wrote this one in Excel using conditional cell formatting...I think I misinterpreted the stat boundaries but they werent worded that amazingly. I assumed that:

- Atk had to be between 80% and 120% of Def (first condition for Balanced)
- SpAtk had to be between 80% and 120% of SpDef (second condition for Balanced)
- Atk had to be between 0% and 70% of SpAtk (SpA based)
- Speed had to be between 60 and 110 (given)
- BST had to be between 536 and 545 (latest poll results)

They seemed very restrictive though.

ANYWAY

120 / 74 / 90 / 100 / 96 / 60 for a total of 540 is what I have now. It looks very familiar to those who like aldaron's, which has the following reasons:

Speed

I didn't want this Pokemon to be fast at all, and I agree with the sentiments of allowing Tyranitar to outspeed it. I wanted it to be slower, but the problem was the minimum of 60. So that one was pretty much cornered.

HP

I wanted a Pokemon that could take a hit, something you rarely see in Fire types. But the attacking and defending stats were already connected: Attack was capped by how high SpA was, and I didn't want a lot of SpA. Def was connected to Atk, and SpDef connected to SpAtk, so neither could be high at all. HP was virtually unrestricted, so I pumped it. Finally you have a high HP monster that doesn't buckle to enemy Leech Seeders.

The others

Since this thing was gonna be SpA based, there was no denying that Atk was merely something to pour into or take away from to satisfy base total and the other requirements. Those requirements bit me in the ass, sometimes capping it at 70 with one rule while the other said it had to be between 75 and some other number (for example). In the end, I ended up with 74, just like Aldaron. If this thing is gonna be played as defensively as I would, I doubt anyone cares.

SpA is 100, no higher, no lower. Pretty much the same as Celebi: enough to pack a punch if you need it to, but not high enough to leave a lot to be desired from the defensive side. The defenses seem...just above average. I see DP is filled with Pokemon that pretty much max HP, put a defensive nature and put as much in that stat as they can afford, because the stats are so close. I wanted something more like Snorlax, where you could be creative and emphasize a defensive stat without being forced to pump HP to the max. It's a bit like Vaporeon too, except Vaporeon is usually forced to max HP nonetheless because its Def is so low yet it has to take physical hits to fill its niche.

I'll add damage calcs later.

 

[Luck]

Here why i wanted Chlorophyll on this poke

-The theory was in Sunny day situations that where it gets strengths,It would get the a fire boost from sun and speed boost no need for stat up moves because fire blast, sunny day, and life orb is crazy with good special attack

-It would have decent speed but one of the method counter to shut off the sunny day,Slow it down and cut off the fire boost

-It would only get growth on the special side,but get sword dance for the physical because it had lower attack

My stat spread

100 hp
71 attack
100 defense
115 sp attack
80 speed
70 sp defense

It has enough speed to something without chlorophyll ,it also has enough attack for sword dance to be useful.It is bulky enough without being crazy and 70 sp d leaves a hole where stuff can beat it.

 

[Time Mage]

EDIT: Wrote this one in Excel using conditional cell formatting...I think I misinterpreted the stat boundaries but they werent worded that amazingly. I assumed that:

- Atk had to be between 80% and 120% of Def (first condition for Balanced)
- SpAtk had to be between 80% and 120% of SpDef (second condition for Balanced)
- Atk had to be between 0% and 70% of SpAtk (SpA based)
- Speed had to be between 60 and 110 (given)
- BST had to be between 536 and 545 (latest poll results)

They seemed very restrictive though.

The first and second conditions you posted are not right. The comparison is only between the highest stats of each. So in this case, you compare the highest of the defenses (since it's been voted to have balanced defenses), to the special attack, which will be the highest attacking stat (it's been decided to be a special attacker). So, defenses have to be separated at almost a 20% of their values, and then, the highest of those has to be within a 20% of the special attack (not each one with their corresponding attack!).

Maybe with that in mind you'll want to change your spread.

 

[_Sparkball606_]

People,this doesn't have to be a broken pokemon like Syclant(sorta),just good,some bad sides to it,good, not godly moves,and some decent stats. Also, I like Mekkah's spread.

 

[Grawl]

It's just awesome how many people are working together on this thing.

I'm liking Futuresuperstars stats the most, with Aldarons en Mekkah's second.

 

[Mekkah]

The first and second conditions you posted are not right. The comparison is only between the highest stats of each. So in this case, you compare the highest of the defenses (since it's been voted to have balanced defenses), to the special attack, which will be the highest attacking stat (it's been decided to be a special attacker). So, defenses have to be separated at almost a 20% of their values, and then, the highest of those has to be within a 20% of the special attack (not each one with their corresponding attack!).

Maybe with that in mind you'll want to change your spread.

And this is why I waited with damage calculating. Thanks.

These stick:
- Atk had to be between 0% and 70% of SpAtk (SpA based)
- Speed had to be between 60 and 110 (given)
- BST had to be between 536 and 545 (latest poll results)

These anew:
- Def has to be between 80% and 120% of SpDef
- The higher defensive stat has to be between 80% and 120% of SpAtk

Would that be correct?

 

[Aki]

Here's my spread.

I feel compulsive need to bulkify all spreads.

105/72/95/115/79/70

HP: Bulky enough. I know there are advocates of SubSeeding out there, and since that's hardly the main concern of what's to come of this Pokemon, I think it's fair enough to have good HP because a) it breaks the mould set by other Fire Pokemon, and b) only requires 212 HP EVs to reach 101 subs, so there are some spare for some more varied EV spreads.

Good if justified, and this is. It's good seeing higher HP Spreads (Damn you TM! >=V )

Attack: The attack is at a level where it's usable, but not great by any stretch. 72 is a very special number, because even with a Life Orb Max+ Power Whip, the most this Pokemon can possibly deal without a critical is 319 damage to a Tentacruel running 320 HP. Other relevant Power Whip checks:

Max+ Suicune - 248-294
Max+ Hippowdon - 246-290
Max+ Donphan - 242-288
Max+ Gliscor - 118-139
Minimum Tyranitar - 354-416 (look at me i am important)
Max+ Swampert - 580-688
239 (Bulky) Gyarados - 187-222
Max+ Slowbro - 254-302
Max+ Weezing (no burn) - 60-72
Max+ Weezing (with burn) - 30-36 (ouch!)
Max Cresselia - 67-79

So, a surprise Physical or Mixed set isn't entirely out there, but don't expect it to take any precidence over a Leech Seed/Bulky Sweeper set.

I somehow don't see woodman getting Powerwhip, nither the Shaymin evo. I could possibly see KoA's newest pwnage in a can, but bleh.

Defense: The 95 Defense has a real purpose, but since it ties so much into the fight against TTar, I'll just skip the explanation here and let you read on to obtain the importance of the 95 Defence.

Right. This thing has a fucking 1% chance, as minimum CBTar damage with SE is 410 outta 414/317.

Special Attack: I know I said that I think 115 SpA is too much, but after looking at the Max+ SpA Energy Ball versus TTar (176-210 damage), I found something interesting in the fact that there is a very, very slim chance that TTar won't be 2HKOed by this. This gets interesting in the fact that a CBTar's Stone Edge will always OHKO this Pokemon unless it's running Max HP/Max+ Defense, in which then it has a very small chance to live. So, obviously, if I predict the TTar switch and drop an Energy Ball, most of it comes down to who outspeeds who, right? Well, it gets even more interesting down the road...

But you need to predict: With the 115 spread you're proposing, what fuckhead is switching tar in anyway? He'd sacrifice a burden and send it in for the revenge.


Special Defense: This ended up being my compromise with the high BST, but it worked out decently. It might actually work out pretty nicely without Leftovers, but we can't really change that since all the other stats are set out very specifically that I can't really lower this without throwing the other finely balanced stats out of proportion.

So again, discounting Leftovers, Tokekiss would be guaranteed a 3HKO exactly on the dot against Max/Max+ EV spread. Any Min SpD variant is 2HKOed by a decent margin. Considering that Togekiss can take those Fire Blasts that aren't under Sunny Day pretty well, he makes a decent soft counter.

You can't have a 252/252/252 +SpD +Dfce Spread ;) Either way, 79 SpD invites Heatran to come in, take advantage of Sunny Day, and say "FAUCKS THOU!" If it gets Flash fire, then togekiss comes in and using it's 85/115 Special stats, says exactly the same.

Speed: For the record, I hate hard counters. I don't want Tyranitar to be a hard counter. Hard counters just make the game all about what team can get the best hard coverage of the big threats. Soft counters, in my opinion, make the game much more open to influence/interpretation by players themselves, which ultimately leads to new strategies for old Pokemon. 70 base speed gives a minimum 176 speed. This sits exactly one point above Tyraniboah, but 31 below a standard CB build. Therefore, to outspeed Tyranitar, a minimum of 128 EVs are needed in speed. Though this isn't unmanagable, it is a significant enough investment that it should be something taken into consideration. To outspeed a minimum Togekiss, it will need 84 EVs input. This base speed will keep this Pokemon and Tyranitar/Togekiss in direct competition.

Needs less speed IMO: It fails to outspeed anything notable for what it was designed for (Bulky Water/Ground/Steel counter) Without significant investment, which takes away from your defences and invalidating your Calcs. It would be nice to have a 252/252/252/128 +Defence +SpD + Speed spread, but the funny thing is, You cant.

OTHER JUNK:

Tankiness: 2309.6392857142857142857142857143

Sweepiness: 192.52776066269596768672554254809

Speed Factor: .55

Rating: 445.83 (Good)

Good thing Flying is only effective on Fighting, Bug and Grass, and I know some are rooting for Electric next time, so I don't think it has a chance of happening again soon.

EDIT: Wrote this one in Excel using conditional cell formatting...I think I misinterpreted the stat boundaries but they werent worded that amazingly. I assumed that:

- Atk had to be between 80% and 120% of Def (first condition for Balanced)
- SpAtk had to be between 80% and 120% of SpDef (second condition for Balanced)
- Atk had to be between 0% and 70% of SpAtk (SpA based)
- Speed had to be between 60 and 110 (given)
- BST had to be between 536 and 545 (latest poll results)

They seemed very restrictive though.

ANYWAY

120 / 74 / 90 / 100 / 96 / 60 for a total of 540 is what I have now. It looks very familiar to those who like aldaron's, which has the following reasons:

Speed

I didn't want this Pokemon to be fast at all, and I agree with the sentiments of allowing Tyranitar to outspeed it. I wanted it to be slower, but the problem was the minimum of 60. So that one was pretty much cornered.

*Applauds for using low speed and not wasting points*

HP

I wanted a Pokemon that could take a hit, something you rarely see in Fire types. But the attacking and defending stats were already connected: Attack was capped by how high SpA was, and I didn't want a lot of SpA. Def was connected to Atk, and SpDef connected to SpAtk, so neither could be high at all. HP was virtually unrestricted, so I pumped it. Finally you have a high HP monster that doesn't buckle to enemy Leech Seeders.

*Continues Applause*

The others

Since this thing was gonna be SpA based, there was no denying that Atk was merely something to pour into or take away from to satisfy base total and the other requirements. Those requirements bit me in the ass, sometimes capping it at 70 with one rule while the other said it had to be between 75 and some other number (for example). In the end, I ended up with 74, just like Aldaron. If this thing is gonna be played as defensively as I would, I doubt anyone cares.

*Applause comes to a screeching halt* 74 attack dosen't really do anything notable. Make it 70.

SpA is 100, no higher, no lower. Pretty much the same as Celebi: enough to pack a punch if you need it to, but not high enough to leave a lot to be desired from the defensive side. The defenses seem...just above average. I see DP is filled with Pokemon that pretty much max HP, put a defensive nature and put as much in that stat as they can afford, because the stats are so close. I wanted something more like Snorlax, where you could be creative and emphasize a defensive stat without being forced to pump HP to the max. It's a bit like Vaporeon too, except Vaporeon is usually forced to max HP nonetheless because its Def is so low yet it has to take physical hits to fill its niche.

*applause resumes*

I don't like how you've tried to make it bulky, with 120/96/96, but it just falls short of my standards. Drop the 4 points in Attack, Add them to SpD, and let those extra 5 fall into Defence and you've got instant win in a fucking can.

I'll add damage calcs later.

Here why i wanted Chlorophyll on this poke

-The theory was in Sunny day situations that where it gets strengths,It would get the a fire boost from sun and speed boost no need for stat up moves because fire blast, sunny day, and life orb is crazy with good special attack

-It would have decent speed but one of the method counter to shut off the sunny day,Slow it down and cut off the fire boost

-It would only get growth on the special side,but get sword dance for the physical because it had lower attack

My stat spread

100 hp
71 attack
100 defense
115 sp attack
80 speed
70 sp defense

It has enough speed to something without chlorophyll ,it also has enough attack for sword dance to be useful.It is bulky enough without being crazy and 70 sp d leaves a hole where stuff can beat it.[

I don't know what rock you've been livng under, you've got 536 BST...

Drop that 1 point in attack. Those speed stats are failing at live, at the very least swap Speed and SpD. Add those 10 points to SpD, and you've got

100/70/100/115/90/70

However, 115 base SpA dosen't do anything notable without significant investment, you are better off moving that 5 to Special HP. Or even better, Move those 15 to HP:

115/70/100/100/90/70

Chlorophyll seems a waste now, you've got better options in Flash fire, Solar Power, and maybe a new ability that works like Adaptability, but it triggered by switching into a Fire/Grass move?

If you really want it, drop the 15 out of hp, take 10 out of attack, take 10 out of Defence, and add it to Special attack. Broken as hell though.

Will write up a complete overview for my spreads later.

 

[Mekkah]

Aki, why do you always have to post in rant form? CAP is about civilized debate.

*Applause comes to a screeching halt* 74 attack dosen't really do anything notable. Make it 70.

Because with the requirements I had set up, its SpA capped it at 75, while the 90 Def made it that it had to be between 72 and 108, so I didn't have a choice at all. Of course, those requirements were incorrect, so I'll be revising the spread nonetheless. I went with 74 because that made the base total for a nice round number combined with the 96 SpDef. Next attempt will have every stat divisible by 5, maybe even 10 if I can. This is because I've found those easier to remember for damage calculations and such.

Thanks for the other compliments though.

 

[Aki]

Bleh IMO there's not much difference; I also tend to write stuff as i would say it IRL, so it's lacking appropriate calm/Anger/Sarcasm as it naturally comes.

74 and 70 isn't much of a difference. Once we've decided it's specially orentated, we can really just let the attack fly out the window with a weight after it. The Special orentation means that SpA has to be 20% more at the least then Attack, meaning that it can't be greater than 80 is your SpA is 100 ;)

The 4 points difference naturally lends itself to those defences, as well as you not taking the 545 cap to the limit. it's like saying: Do you just do an oral, or do you put feeling into it? (Take it either way, i was intending a speech)

No probs; i'm giving Constructive (I hope) Criticism, which i expect everyone else to do for me. (I hope)

 

[Mekkah]

120 / 65 / 106 / 90 / 95 / 60 is my new end result, with a BST of 536, the bare minimum. I'm not tempted at all to use my other points anywhere, I've reached my goal: a very bulky Grass / Fire type with only average Special Attack, to make it not a heavy sweeper, but rather a tank that not only walls sweepers, but also beats out other tanks. I think that alone is very potent. Its HP is up there with Cresselia with lighter defenses (as well as the Stealth Rock weak) to keep it from being gamebreakingly hard to ram.

To show you how well it takes a hit (on inaccurate calculators, but it's only for comparison to other Pokemon)

299 Attack STAB Choice Band Close Combat on max HP/max Def Impish Skarmory
299 attack vs 416 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 334 max HP: 42.22% - 49.7%

Same Close Combat on max HP/max Def Bold Woodman
299 attack vs 342 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 444 max HP: 38.74% - 45.5%

Or, in raw damage, Woodman takes 202 max, and Skarmory takes 166 max, but Woodman has 110 more HP.

So indeed, he's about as sturdy as they get. Of course, Skarmory's resistances and Stealth Rock neutrality will make it win in this department, it is just a hypothetical show-off for my spread. I don't think it is going over the top either, there are many Pokemon out there with a better laid out physical HP/Def.

Don't be repelled by what looks like low Special Attack: a Fire Blast from this thing's minimum Special Attack should still do a minimum of about 93% to Skarmory, and Flamethrower will still always 2HKO (75% on a somewhat inaccurate calculator). Hippowdon takes about 75% from Grass Knot. 404/236 HP/SpDef Celebi should take about 50% on average from a Flamethrower when you don't invest anything, but with ~64 EVs we are already looking at a guaranteed 50% while with 128 you have a guaranteed 2HKO.

 

[Aki]

Now that mekkah's posted, i'm free to post this

Template:

Art form:
Base stats Spread:
Base Stat reasoning:
(Defences:)
(Attack:)
(Speed:)
BST:
Abilities:
Viable Movepool:
(Offensive:)
(Utility/Defensive:)
Movesets:
Potential Counters:
Final Notes:

Art form: Woodman, Deer can work though.

Base stats spread: 1. 110/70/120/100/100/45 OR 2. 130/70/102/100/87/56

Base stats Reasoning:

Defences: 110/120/100 OR 130/102/87
The HP and Defence let it take CBTar's Stone edge with 252/252 Relaxed.
Both spreads take Special hits approximatly the same, the second .125% better.

Attack: 70/100

70 attack makes a Gimmick set with SD Still viable, as well as that myriad of physical moves (Wood hammer, Flare Blitz, ect...), While STILL making Focus punch viable.
100 Special attack is a good, round number that isn't unbalancing, but still menacing and effective with EV Investment.

Speed: 45 OR 56

This thing is so totally not outspeeding much viably in the Bulky Water/Ground/Steel thing. Speed is the absolute least neccecary stat.

BST: 545

Abilties:

Flash Fire
Solar Power
Versitility: Stab gets Doubled when hit by a STAB move (EG: Grass/Fire. STAB goes to 2x when hit by a Grass or Fire move)

Movepool:

Offensive: Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer, Fire punch, Seed Bomb, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Earthquake, Grass Knot, Energy ball, (Head smash?), Hidden Power.

Utility/Defensive: Substitute, Leech seed, (Rapid spin type move?), (Knock off?), Light screen, reflect, rest, (Growth?), (Swords Dance?), Sunny day

Movesets:

Spread 1:
Sunny day: 252 hp/80 Def/56 SpA/120 SpD
Sassy
Ability: Solar Power
@Leftovers
-Sunny Day
-Grass Knot
-Flamethrower/Fire Blast
-Leech Seed/Rest/Utility move

Ev's generate 434 Hp, 296 Defence, 250 Special attack and 292 Special Defence.

Sunny day sets up the fire pwnage, as well as Solar Power. Last slot is your healing.

Bulky Water/Ground/Steel Counter:
252 hp/100 SpA/148 SpD
Sassy
Ability: Flash Fire/Versatility
@Leftovers
-Flamethrower/Fire Blast
-Grass Knot
-Substitute/Rest
-Leech Seed/Knock Off/Light screen

Ev's generate 434 HP, 261 special attack and 300 SDef.

The set you've all been waiting for: Switches in on SUicune, Swampert, Skarm, Bronzong, Hippowdon, all who cannot touch it, and then it wipes them off the face of the planet, allowing for a Chomp/tar Sweep.

Everything is the same for Spread 2, but more HP and less defences are generated.

*Will post SD and Special attacker sets later if this recieves support/criticism! =O*

Potential Counters:

Togekiss outspeeds and Flinchaxes shit. The random gengar with Sludge bomb, as well as Tentacruel works. A Bulkier tar (252 hp min) Comes in and rapes with Stone edge.

Final Notes: Togekiss being added to the counters list makes it compleatly viable for a spot in a team, it also works for countering all 3 CAP so far. basicly, it rapes shit.

120 / 65 / 105/ 90 / 95 / 60

I just shit myself when i saw that. It's pure awesomeness in a can, but he wants those extra 10 stat points in SpA, dammit.

 

[The.Lost.Hylian]

It's just awesome how many people are working together on this thing.

I'm liking Futuresuperstars stats the most, with Aldarons en Mekkah's second.

To be honest, I just see a lot of replies and not a lot of "working together", but then again I can't say all that much.

 

[Aki]

Bleh, i'm getting spammy response syndrome, but i've posted a template and have been offering consistent feedback. I encourage others to do the same.

 

[Time Mage]

And this is why I waited with damage calculating. Thanks.

These stick:
- Atk had to be between 0% and 70% of SpAtk (SpA based)
- Speed had to be between 60 and 110 (given)
- BST had to be between 536 and 545 (latest poll results)

These anew:
- Def has to be between 80% and 120% of SpDef
- The higher defensive stat has to be between 80% and 120% of SpAtk

Would that be correct?

Yes, that's right.

 

[Nilf]

Mekkah's Spread:----120 / 65 / 106 / 90 / 95 / 60
Lord Gloom's spread: 105 / 72 / 95 / 115 / 79 / 70
Aki's Spread:--------110 / 70 / 120 / 100 / 100 / 45

Tangrowth's Spread: 100 / 100 / 125 / 110 / 50 / 50

Is anyone else seeing this turning out like a Tangrowth except with more special defense, and much better typing to hurt those steels that totally wall it?

If you look at Tangrowths counters section here you can see that alot of his counters rely on destroying him with fire (See Specsmence). Salamence intimidates Tangrowth and destroys him with Fire Blasts. Intimidate won't do much to this poke, neither will fire blasts. Admittedly this new pokemon can't hurt it back though unless it carries HP Ice.

Steels that totally walled Tangrowth, such as Skarmory or Bronzong, are gonna be totally destroyed by Fire Blast, and Weezing isn't going to like taking STAB Fire BLasts in it's face on it's 70 SpDef when it's coming off a proposed 100+ SpAtk, especially if it get's a sun boost.

"Other grassers" will be destroyed by the Fire typing too.

Not to mention Tangrowth can't fire off some awesome special STAB's from a pretty damn high SpAtk stat - the only proper attacking option Tangrowth has is Power Whip. I can see this getting a lot more, and stat up moves.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

^ Wow...it kinda does, but we can't all save a Pokemon's job just because it has similar stats (In referance to Zakkusu's post)

Okay, be prepare for the stat poll, which is coming in a few hours or so. Still haven't haven't heard word from Cooper, Deck Knight(?), and [d.a.r.k.i.e](?) about stat spreads yet, but I have spreads from the rest. I'll look through every page of both BST to see if I missed anything. How many damn options can a damn preference poll have? O_o

LatinoHeat - Got
Aldaron - Got
Time Mage - Got
Deck Knight - Not sure, most likely replace.
Mekkah - Got
Dane - Got
Hyra - Got
Cooper - Most likely replace.
Fishin - Got
(Sub)Aki - Considering.
Hit4Three - Replacing .darkie and got.

 

[Lord Gloom]

I feel compulsive need to bulkify all spreads.

Good if justified, and this is. It's good seeing higher HP Spreads (Damn you TM! >=V )

I somehow don't see woodman getting Powerwhip, nither the Shaymin evo. I could possibly see KoA's newest pwnage in a can, but bleh.

Just replace "Power Whip" with "Wood Hammer" and it's the exact same deal.

Right. This thing has a fucking 1% chance, as minimum CBTar damage with SE is 410 outta 414/317.

Since I made it so that this Pokemon and Tyranitar are in such close competition, I thought I'd just throw in that tiny element of luck.

But you need to predict: With the 115 spread you're proposing, what fuckhead is switching tar in anyway? He'd sacrifice a burden and send it in for the revenge.

I'd say pretty good myself. Look at it this way: without an EV investment, Tyranitar is sure to outspeed you, and unless you predict it switching in and drop an Energy Ball, you won't possibly be able to kill it save a critical or something. Tyranitar's Stone Edge is one of the biggest threats in the game to this guy. If he comes in on a Fire Blast, you're pretty fucked.

You can't have a 252/252/252 +SpD +Dfce Spread ;) Either way, 79 SpD invites Heatran to come in, take advantage of Sunny Day, and say "FAUCKS THOU!" If it gets Flash fire, then togekiss comes in and using it's 85/115 Special stats, says exactly the same.

I don't see how Heatran being able to beat a Pokemon that packs a fire move standard is anything new. Besides, assuming you do run a Sunny Day set, Heatran is just another thing you need to consider, as well as any insert Chlorophyll Pokemon here. Also, I regard Togekiss as a counter at this point anyways, so telling me that Togekiss can beat my set is a moot point.

Needs less speed IMO: It fails to outspeed anything notable for what it was designed for (Bulky Water/Ground/Steel counter) Without significant investment, which takes away from your defences and invalidating your Calcs. It would be nice to have a 252/252/252/128 +Defence +SpD + Speed spread, but the funny thing is, You cant.

None of the calcs are invalid, I did them all Max+ to ensure that things all worked properly (the 319 damage to Tentacruel, for example). I never said, or even implied that this would be his EV spread. One of the beauteous things about my set is that so much of what he can and can't do will be determined by his EVs; of all the Pokemon I can think of, none are hurting for a few hundred more EV points like this guy is.

Mekkah's Spread: 120 / 65 / 106 / 90 / 95 / 60
Lord Gloom's spread: 105 / 72 / 95 / 115 / 79 / 70
Aki's Spread: 110 / 70 / 120 / 100 / 100 / 45

Tangrowth's Spread: 100 / 100 / 125 / 110 / 50 / 50

In that regard, I see my spread as the most unique here for the fact that it's over all less defensively balanced and more offensively oriented on a whole. Honestly though, in the end, it's all going to come down to what speed we like. Do we want Tyranitar to outspeed it, or vice versa? Or, like in my case, do we want it to be a competition as to who beats who?

 

[jagged_angel]

In that regard, I see my spread as the most unique here for the fact that it's over all less defensively balanced and more offensively oriented on a whole. Honestly though, in the end, it's all going to come down to what speed we like. Do we want Tyranitar to outspeed it, or vice versa? Or, like in my case, do we want it to be a competition as to who beats who?

I want TTar to outspeed it, except in Chlorophylly sun!

It would really suck if TTar gets more usage in OU because of this poke.

We need to think about what BL pokes might have opportunities to be great counters to this and the other CAP pokes.

 

[Mekkah]

I think with this stat total, style, build and typing, Tangrowth was already doomed to "lose his job" (he's been BL for ages though, don't kid yourself).

That said, for BL Pokemon that stand a chance (as far as you can predict that when it doesn't have moves, trait or determined stats yet):

Ludicolo
Porygon2
Crobat
Charizard
Gardevoir
Uxie
Moltres
Houndoom
Typhlosion

The more I look at the possible ways of tackling a Fire/Grass Pokemon when facing one, the more I am convinced that this is not a Pokemon you want to have good Special Attack. That would be a quite centralizing force towards itself, as so few Pokemon resist three of the moves that he is guaranteed to get (Fire move, Grass move, HP Ice).

 

[chronostrike]

We'd either be giving it Growth, Or a good ability. No way does this thing need +2 stat boosts or +1/+1 ones. That just makes this thing the shitz.

I revise my statement. Growth is fine since it's only +1.

I don't see how Fire blast, GK and Hidden power contribute to it being uber...If we went by your standards, Heatran would be uber.

Heatran doesn't get Grass Knot, nor are its defenses as good as what's typically proposed for this pokemon (303 vs approx 320). Also, Heatran only has one usable STAB whereas this pokemon has two, and they offer excellent type coverage. HP rock will cover most of the potential counters with HP ice getting everything else bar Heatran itself.

To sum up, all those waters that would come in on Heatran are now useless, and dragons are in no better shape because of the threat of HP ice. Tentacruel may be neutral or resist on everything, but it's still taking BP 120 on Grass Knot.

(Low defence? Say hi Garchomp, Dragonite, Salamence, Weavile and Tyranitar!)

Tyranitar can't switch in on any grass attack this pokemon has and is easily out sped by every spread but yours. That's a point in your favor, but only if your spread is picked.
Weavile can't switch in, and hits neutral on everything but the Aerial Ace it might be carrying.
HP ice takes care of the rest.

(Low SpD? Say hi Togekiss, Tentacruel, Gengar and Random power gemers!)

Gengar can't take switches at all, not to mention Sludge Bomb is a lame move under any other circumstances.
Do you know how many pokemon get Power Gem?
-Persian 65 SAtk
-Starmie 100 SAtk, better off as rapid spinner with boltbeam
-Ampharos 115 SAtk, probably slower at 55 Spd
-Corsola 65 SAtk and STAB, slower at 35 Spd, no defenses to speak of
-Sableye 65 SAtk, probably slower at 50 Spd, pitiful defenses
-Grumpig 90 SAtk, better off walling but only UU at that
-Vespiqueen 80 SAtk, slower at 40 Spd
Ancientpower isn't much better.

(Low SpA? Say hi to not being able to counter Bulky Grounds, Waters, and Steels, which was the point of this thing in the first place!)

I said I wanted it less than 120. So did you.

 

[latinoheat]

i don't care which spread wins the only stat ups that should even be considered for this thing are growth, swords dance and at a push agility.
The highest special attack spread i have seen proposed by people who are having spreads submitted is 115.

 

[Dane]

The more I look at the possible ways of tackling a Fire/Grass Pokemon when facing one, the more I am convinced that this is not a Pokemon you want to have good Special Attack. That would be a quite centralizing force towards itself, as so few Pokemon resist three of the moves that he is guaranteed to get (Fire move, Grass move, HP Ice).

Agreed. Though HP Rock currently looks more enticing for it. Either way, this guy really needs to stay under 100SpAtk.

 

[latinoheat]

HP Ground is still the best option imo, the dragons still take alright damage from stabbed fire blasts.

 

[Fishin]

One thing I wanted to note regarding stat spreads is that it makes sense for at least one defensive stat to be fairly low. The chance that you don't carry a Flying attack on a given team is high, and most users of Rock attacks don't like switching or staying in on this. This won't be hit SE a lot, so ideally we want it to have some sort of weak point rather than being fairly durable on both sides. As is, there are hardly any defensive Pokemon that really threaten this, so again, having a weak point somewhere makes this more easily revenge-killed, which is important since it's very difficult to actually counter.

I chose defense as the somewhat lower stat for mine since Grass/Fire has more useful resistances on the special side and I wanted Duggy (and Snorlax) to pose a threat, but special could work since obviously Bliss is going to be the #1 switch into most special attackers.