Unpopular opinions

The other issue, fighting the enemy team very rarely has a difference to fighting a random trainer. They don't do anything underhanded besides Protect/Double Team spam I guess. Like, imagine if Cursed Lusamine was a boss with 6 "moves" that you gang up on, and then in its final stretches it summons backup monsters while it recooperates. Would've been way more interesting than...well this
ORAS did a horde battle with the Grunts, but A, Horde battles suck, and B, they were still really bad at it.

GF just really doesn't want to do anything "unfair" against the player. Even battles like the AI professor don't use the field effect that would boost their pokemon and we don't see ourselves outnumbered even the way the Kimono Girls/Winstrates used to outnumber the player. Totem battles were the only actual "this enemy is better than you" moment I think we've seen in outside of optional content, which is why I think those are more fondly remembered than a lot of gyms.
 
i think the failures of bw are because they didnt want to concede a single inch to the argument of owning and battling with pokemon is immoral, rather it felt more like a game made to completely beat down the argument by attaching it to the worst kind of people morals wise. which then brings the point: why make a fucking game about it then lmao. the only people who actually took "pokemon is cockfighting" seriously were 50 year olds, edgelords who still played and interacted with games and... peta. who made a parody of it FOR bw, the game trying to clear the franchise of those accusations.
Yeah this is p much what I feel but more succinctly said, ty
 
Outside of the issue you highlighted, Calem/Serena's arc annoys me because the whole "my mum and dad are famous trainers so I should be good too! Oh, actually that's got nothing to do with me, I'm actually quite mid" idea is a compelling one on its own, but it sort of takes a backseat to them just trailing after the player. We never spend much/any time with their parents and they're not major figures in the region, so it just falls flat and doesn't really say much about them as people. Lots of characters have talented/notable parents - the protagonist in XY themselves does. But not all of them have that angst, so it's weird to bring it up as one of their motivations and then do so little with it.
I don't think this is fully informed on their arc. From what I remember of the game and looking through their quotes, their parents being part of their motivation is, in a direct sense, minimal.

I read their arc as an "early bloomer" arc. They get a head-start on battling, whether through their parents or whatever else, and become the early guide and leader for everyone else (e.g. catch tutorial, adventure rules). Because they're the best at that early stage, they think they're destined to stay being the best and become elite. However, they face an extended reality check as the player keeps beating them across the game. They realize that, not only did they underestimate you, but they don't have the chops to be the best, and have to cope with that. As Just A Seaking said more succinctly, they realize they're an NPC, and not the main character at a societal level.

What they realize is that they don't need to be the best to be special and relevant and impactful. They are special by being a person that exists. They are the main character of their own life. Instead of feeling a need to force themselves into relevance by winning everything, they can just exist as a person, working with other people and finding common ground instead of setting themselves apart.

In this sense, they're a mini foil to Lysandre (see my post above). They both start grappling with good-hearted desires and ego. Lysandre fails to do everything on his own but still chooses ego, Calem / Serena similarly fail but choose forming connections with other people instead.

I didn't really get this Diantha quote at first, but after going through Lysandre and Serena / Calem, I think I'm starting to fit it in.

Diantha (Coumarine City): "Bonds... They really are important to us all, aren't they? When I'm acting, I think I'm always trying to forge a bond between myself and the character I'm playing. If all I think about is how I'm nothing like a character (read: someone else, e.g. due to thinking you're better than them), then I'll just hate playing it (read: working alongside them). But if I focus on what I have in common with the character and put myself in her shoes, I might be able to understand her. It's the same for people--or Pokémon."
 
Last edited:
Like the Totem esque stat boost is fine, but it's still just singles, with the mons being fairly typical. The fact they can't even ZMove is sad

The Raids battles and Eternemax/Star Revaroom in recent Gens seems like they're testing waters at least...

Lusamine herself unfortunately was retconned from being fully bad with USUM/Anime/Masters, so I feel the complaint of the NPC being way too complicit to Lysandre is partially related. They don't want truly bad just for bad villains. Volo seems to be an exception, but then they just fucking did what the meme vid I just posted showed. And then Rose and Sada/Turo are silly, though at the least the latter is remotely interesting...if not for the disappointing Terapagos part

I dunno, I feel just going "they should only focus on gameplay only" when they still bungle that or are too repitive for mon archetypes doesn't help. They seem....scared
They didn't do that because they didn't (and still don't barring Eternamax) put creatures in the game that you can fight in normal battles but not have, and they were right to do so. (The Starmobiles aren't actually Pokemon internally.)
the Kimono Girls
The Kimono Girls never outnumbered you, you weren't required to fight them all in a row.
 
This is a take I've passingly mentioned before and have kept to myself since the teraleak because complaining about XY's story in [current year] is second only to Star Wars sequel trilogy discourse in the sport of dead horse beating, but that's what we've decided to do now so might as well: XY's story is so bad that it's a very large part of why I'm not that torn up about not getting Z relative to many others. You know what a Z Version would've probably done? It would've most likely added a scene or two of Lysandre speaking publicly and souped up the climax with Zygarde helping to BTFO him even harder. For the reasons Just a Seaking and many others have sketched out, this would've been majorly insufficient (frankly it wasn't enough in Platinum either to elevate the Team Galactic plot above mediocre but that's a whole different discussion). A story with an outright dangerous moral, a villain who doesn't work in the Pokemon setting and a cast composed almost entirely of charisma black holes like the player's friends and the Flare scientists is one that requires a major set of rewrites, whole scenes and potentially characters being junked and replaced (see Calem/Serena's laughable Victory Road monologue). SWSH feels way more like the "potential man" Pokemon plot to me: The baseline aesthetic and story structure of a flashy sports anime filled with colorful contestants and the running theme of a new generation taking over is great and just needed another draft or two to really get over the hump. XY, on the other hand, is just broken at its core, and now we can't even cope that more dev time would've fixed it because the Teraleak had nothing of substance in regards to scrapped story ideas.

The best "fix" for XY's story as far as I'm concerned is to take what good characters, themes and iconography it has, burn everything else to the ground and then plop the survivors into a whole new storyline written from scratch. Legends Z-A might, just might do exactly this, and I'd be very happy if so.
 
This is a take I've passingly mentioned before and have kept to myself since the teraleak because complaining about XY's story in [current year] is second only to Star Wars sequel trilogy discourse in the sport of dead horse beating, but that's what we've decided to do now so might as well: XY's story is so bad that it's a very large part of why I'm not that torn up about not getting Z relative to many others. You know what a Z Version would've probably done? It would've most likely added a scene or two of Lysandre speaking publicly and souped up the climax with Zygarde helping to BTFO him even harder. For the reasons Just a Seaking and many others have sketched out, this would've been majorly insufficient (frankly it wasn't enough in Platinum either to elevate the Team Galactic plot above mediocre but that's a whole different discussion). A story with an outright dangerous moral, a villain who doesn't work in the Pokemon setting and a cast composed almost entirely of charisma black holes like the player's friends and the Flare scientists is one that requires a major set of rewrites, whole scenes and potentially characters being junked and replaced (see Calem/Serena's laughable Victory Road monologue). SWSH feels way more like the "potential man" Pokemon plot to me: The baseline aesthetic and story structure of a flashy sports anime filled with colorful contestants and the running theme of a new generation taking over is great and just needed another draft or two to really get over the hump. XY, on the other hand, is just broken at its core, and now we can't even cope that more dev time would've fixed it because the Teraleak had nothing of substance in regards to scrapped story ideas.

The best "fix" for XY's story as far as I'm concerned is to take what good characters, themes and iconography it has, burn everything else to the ground and then plop the survivors into a whole new storyline written from scratch. Legends Z-A might, just might do exactly this, and I'd be very happy if so.
It's funny how skewered XY's story is that in order for it to be good it would need to be completely wiped. I'm talking Pressing Y+X and the start button (I'm pretty sure that is the game reset combination).
Like as you said earlier, SWSH story ON PAPER could've been fixed. Make chairman rose plan not consist of him ruining everything for something that wouldn't happen for 1k years. Have bede and marnie appear for more than 25 minutes. Those 2 things would not make swsh a slog to play.
Oh yea, and also buff the enemy trainers to not fold to dynamax. Come on, how did we go to alola boss design to, whatever kusoge the galar gym challenge cooks up.
Even then, asking for difficulty in mainline pokemon is squeezing a rock until water comes out.
But with XY's story... what do you do? Lysandre's motive is kusoge from the start and besides, he's basically advocating on razing in what is the most peaceful nintendo universes of all time!
Not to mention the worthless excuses of rivals you have to beat. Complaining about the lame XY rivals is like complaining about the USA corrupt politicians, but I still cannot fathom how they wrote and directed these 4 bozos and thought, yeah, this is good. Come on!
I started my first xy run in April and I just got bored. Last time I touched it I defeated Valerie. Hmmm... I wonder why??!
As for potential XY complete rewrites, I don't even know. Even replacing lysandre entirely with Aklove from pokemon unbound, a villian who aims to destroy the world because iirc his kids died to evil would be more palatable to the lion maned bum.
Still a shit villian but better than lysandre
 
This is a take I've passingly mentioned before and have kept to myself since the teraleak because complaining about XY's story in [current year] is second only to Star Wars sequel trilogy discourse in the sport of dead horse beating, but that's what we've decided to do now so might as well: XY's story is so bad that it's a very large part of why I'm not that torn up about not getting Z relative to many others. You know what a Z Version would've probably done? It would've most likely added a scene or two of Lysandre speaking publicly and souped up the climax with Zygarde helping to BTFO him even harder. For the reasons Just a Seaking and many others have sketched out, this would've been majorly insufficient (frankly it wasn't enough in Platinum either to elevate the Team Galactic plot above mediocre but that's a whole different discussion). A story with an outright dangerous moral, a villain who doesn't work in the Pokemon setting and a cast composed almost entirely of charisma black holes like the player's friends and the Flare scientists is one that requires a major set of rewrites, whole scenes and potentially characters being junked and replaced (see Calem/Serena's laughable Victory Road monologue). SWSH feels way more like the "potential man" Pokemon plot to me: The baseline aesthetic and story structure of a flashy sports anime filled with colorful contestants and the running theme of a new generation taking over is great and just needed another draft or two to really get over the hump. XY, on the other hand, is just broken at its core, and now we can't even cope that more dev time would've fixed it because the Teraleak had nothing of substance in regards to scrapped story ideas.

The best "fix" for XY's story as far as I'm concerned is to take what good characters, themes and iconography it has, burn everything else to the ground and then plop the survivors into a whole new storyline written from scratch. Legends Z-A might, just might do exactly this, and I'd be very happy if so.
I don't know. I think a lot of this post is about relatively surface level, aesthetic stuff, which matters but doesn't create the fundamental rot you imply. A Zygarde scene makes sense because it's cool, but I don't think it's needed narratively. Same on both fronts for the L man getting more action. Lysandre has most everything about him fleshed out well (by Pokemon standards) already, and the legendaries just don't really matter for this story, being macguffins.

Therefore, "these changes aren't sufficient to fix XY's issues" is like, well, yeah, that's true, they don't. But they don't because these changes don't address XY's narrative issues.

Aside from stuff that is endemic to Pokemon in general, I think XY's unique narrative issues are not that pervasive. To me, its main issue is this. It sometimes understands what it means to "listen to people" in a healthy way, and sometimes it doesn't. I think the incorrect understandings can be removed pretty easily by correcting a handful of dialogue paragraphs.

I'm going to try and correct some flawed dialogue examples that Just A Seaking brought up. These corrections are not just better on their own merits, but faithful to the XY narrative I lined out earlier.
_________

Past Quote:
Sycamore: "I always knew that he [Lysandre] desired a beautiful world... But what I really wanted was for him to put his ego aside and lead everything to greater heights. I never had this discussion with him, though. So I'm partially responsible for this."

I don't think this quote is outright bad, but its clarity could be improved. One can interpret it as framing Lysandre's desire for a beautiful world as an untarnished positive, countered by the negative of his ego, which I think is a totally fair read. By this interpretation, the quote sends a bad message (as Just A Seaking said), conflicts oddly with Diantha's great lines about beauty, and is a bit intellectually immature. I'll fix this up and use the chance to clarify and expound on XY's themes at large in a contextually relevant way.

Improved:
Sycamore: "I always knew that he [Lysandre] desired a beautiful world... But when he had to choose between a beautiful world and his ego, he couldn't put his ego aside. I thought his beliefs were stronger than that...
Maybe they were, a long time ago. I wanted to see his answer to the evils of our world. I listened to him. But he didn't listen to me. He didn't listen to anyone. He cared more about his idea of beauty than anyone else, so he cared more about himself than anyone else.
Actually, that's not true. He did listen to me, once. He asked me how to preserve beauty in the world, and I told him to find his own answer and put it into action. But I misled him. He didn't know that beauty is created by seeing new things, not preserved by seeing old things. Therefore, he could never learn to appreciate the differences between people. I never had this discussion with him, though. So I'm partially responsible for this.
I don't know if he'd listen to me now. But maybe you taught him that he was wrong, and maybe he will listen. I hope the day comes when you and Lysandre can work together to create a more beautiful world."

I like words.

Past Quote:
Calem / Serena: "I've been thinking ever since that incident in Geosenge. Lysandre chose only Team Flare. You and I chose everyone but Team Flare. But since our positions forced our hands, you can't really say any of us were right. So maybe... If both sides have something to say, it's best to meet halfway... So I decided that from now on, I don't want to battle just to win but to see how you and your Pokémon think and feel! And that's the kind of Pokémon battle I'm challenging you to now!"
As we've beat into the ground, it kind of sucks to say the dictator murderer guy wasn't wrong, and that we should meet him halfway! However, I think there's a grain of something worth preserving in this. I'll also expand on Calem / Serena and Lysandre as foils.

Improved:
Calem / Serena: "I've been thinking ever since that incident in Geosenge. I wasn't the best trainer, but we still defeated Lysandre. Maybe if Lysandre realized he wasn't the best leader, we would've avoided all this destruction. Maybe if I never realized that I wasn't the best trainer, then...
I have a question for you, <player>. I want to understand what makes people and Pokemon special. Do you think Lysandre has anything special about him? Do you think we should listen to what he says?"

If Yes: "I think you're right. He was able to achieve a lot on his own. We have a lot of work to do, because we can't let the future that Lysandre talks about become real. We need to work to understand others, so we don't fall in the same trap as him.
I've talked enough about the past. Now, I want to understand you. How your Pokemon think and feel! Show me how special you are!

If No: "I'm not sure I agree. Even if his goals were wrong, he was able to achieve a lot on his own. Still, I want to learn why you think that way. Do you think he is lying? Have you already understood him enough? Or do you think that no one is special?
Actually, I have a better idea. Instead of telling me how you think and feel, show me with a battle!

I had to walk a fine line here between writing a pre-teen character with a set arc and personality versus writing commentary. I think Calem / Serena would say Yes to this question, but I don't want to paint that as the one correct position.

_________
Also, Lysandre and his cronies being uncharismatic is part of the point. They are losers, because in XY's narrative, that's what chasing ego forever turns you into. They share this trait because if you value ego over all, and so does someone else, you two end up becoming similar in the end, even if you had different starting points and values. If you'd rather a charismatic antagonist, that is a fine preference, but it doesn't mean XY's choice is an incorrect one narratively.

As a side note, maybe I should try re-writing a much larger portion of a character's dialogue or game's dialogue sometime. This was a fun exercise, and it shows how much potential Pokemon narratives can have.
 
Last edited:
I don't think this is fully informed on their arc. From what I remember of the game and looking through their quotes, their parents being part of their motivation is, in a direct sense, minimal.

I read their arc as an "early bloomer" arc. They get a head-start on battling, whether through their parents or whatever else, and become the early guide and leader for everyone else (e.g. catch tutorial, adventure rules). Because they're the best at that early stage, they think they're destined to stay being the best and become elite. However, they face an extended reality check as the player keeps beating them across the game. They realize that, not only did they underestimate you, but they don't have the chops to be the best, and have to cope with that. As Just A Seaking said more succinctly, they realize they're an NPC, and not the main character at a societal level.

What they realize is that they don't need to be the best to be special and relevant and impactful. They are special by being a person that exists. They are the main character of their own life. Instead of feeling a need to force themselves into relevance by winning everything, they can just exist as a person, working with other people and finding common ground instead of setting themselves apart.

In this sense, they're a mini foil to Lysandre (see my post above). They both start grappling with good-hearted desires and ego. Lysandre fails to do everything on his own but still chooses ego, Calem / Serena similarly fail but choose forming connections with other people instead.

I didn't really get this Diantha quote at first, but after going through Lysandre and Serena / Calem, I think I'm starting to fit it in.

Diantha (Coumarine City): "Bonds... They really are important to us all, aren't they? When I'm acting, I think I'm always trying to forge a bond between myself and the character I'm playing. If all I think about is how I'm nothing like a character (read: someone else, e.g. due to thinking you're better than them), then I'll just hate playing it (read: working alongside them). But if I focus on what I have in common with the character and put myself in her shoes, I might be able to understand her. It's the same for people--or Pokémon."

But that's kind of my point, that it doesn't inform their arc much. The whole idea of them realising that they're an NPC is cool, and is played pretty well with them failing to win the Mega Ring and accepting that the player will be the one to master Mega Evolution, though I found the way they just get one anyway in the postgame to be quite underwhelming.

But the angle of their parents is interesting - my complaint is that it could have been played up to a greater extent (to the point of being an arc on its own). It's not mentioned terribly often but it is one of the earliest things we learn about them, so I kind of expected that it'd come to the fore as the story went on. As it is it's more of an incidental detail, and it could have been excised in its entirety with no effect. If the rival was just already a competent trainer (as we're told May/Brendan is in RSE) the overall arc doesn't change.


The Kimono Girls never outnumbered you, you weren't required to fight them all in a row.

Um, yes you were.
 
Not disagreeing with the logic here, I think N is probably the most compelling part about BW's story, but I'm not sure I'd say his arc is about about abuse when it comes up and is resolved in the last 10 minutes of the game. The reveal doesn't frame his past actions in a more interesting way (unlike Lillie, for exemple) other than saying "I guess you never had to take him seriously lol"
N is meant to represent Pokemon. He comes from the wild, a place of naivety. Ghetsis brings him into the human world, civilizes him, and gives him a purpose. N has good intentions in his heart but is misled by Ghetsis.

The abuse is not meant to be perceived in and of itself but as manipulation.
If I were to write this story, I'd make N closer to the player character's age, being young, naive and full of convictions about how the world works. He'd start his journey at the same time as you (basically merging him, Cheren and Bianca into a single character) and he'd be very stubborn about making others see things his way. But through the course of the game, he meets different people and comes to understand that the world isn't as BLACK AND WHITE as he once thought.

Have you ever played B2/W2? That’s literally the rival. Except they take it a step further, because its discussed in the context of forgiving.

I’m really confused about what this adds to the story, other than make a much more on the nose theme of “listening to others.” Did you not understand Bianca and Cheren’s role in the story too?
Heck, maybe you could even keep Team Plasma in there as a group that worships the legendary dragons and wants to manipulate N into awakening them.
Yeah sure, let’s make the villains lose any personality they had
 
From how I read XY's story

Tl;dr: Lysandre thought the world was overpopulated and was suffering the effects of such (like people fighting each other for limited resources or stealing from one another). I believe that's what the NPCs trying to claim he had a point where referencing.

He thought this behavior was ugly on the world and his idea of beauty was to reduce the world's population in order to create a big enough resources to people ratio for people to no longer fight among each other, steal limited resources, or even have to share materials. This is made somewhat explicit during the climax. Additionally, there was a backstory saying he tried to help others but got taken advantage of in return, and this is where he got his enragement towards humanity as a whole. Sycamore sees where Lysandre got the point in claiming the world was overpopulated, but suggested he could've tried using his role to develop more resources instead of eliminating other people. What Lysandre actually did is a typical villain route to carry and I find it works because it ties to a major backstory that's somewhat deep for a Pokémon game, then connects said backstory with the mysteries of Mega Evolution and the roles of the Legendary Pokémon on the front of the cover, which are what the Pokémon games are about.

I believe X and Y had a lot of fluff but the general premise of Team Flare and their visions were rather simple. Nothing as deep as what many are trying to make it out to be. I believe the reason Lysandre chose to keep Team Flare is because when you have a mass murder weapon that you're planning to use on a global scale, you can only really defend those near you, and Lysandre isn't necessarily Thanos. He couldn't just wipe random selections of the world out of existence. He wanted it to be hard to fit in since his vision was to reduce the world's population by a significant extent, so he charged 5 million Pokedollars to enter.

Ironically enough Lysandre was trying to stabilize the sustainability of populations in a way he saw fit when this was precisely the goal of Xerneas/Yveltal/Zygarde. He tried to play them, to play gods, with a weapon that channeled their energy, only for said gods to suddenly break out of the machine upon waking up then dunk on him.

Idk I just have this placed down to provide my own insight on major parts of XY's story
 
Last edited:
Literally every major character in BW comes to realise that the world isn't as black & white as they thought. It's quite literally the defining theme of that story.
I will say I can maybe see your point for this on Cheren/Bianca, to an extent- though I have problems with their arcs as well, and even think the messaging for Bianca and Cheren is actually Bleh, but as for like, the main plot? And main theme of the game, where the protagonists have the Black and White dragon legends for a fight of ideas?

The premise is literally black and white though.

There is zero reason for any character in the plot to believe that Pokemon training is wrong, outside of the character who was abused (and that is why he thinks it's wrong).

Every trainer, NPC, thing in the game outside of Team Plasma (who are supposed to be the argument for the opposing side) has an at least on the surface good relationship with Pokemon, don't abuse them, and nothing is shown for any struggle.

The Plot. Is Black and White.
 
I will say I can maybe see your point for this on Cheren/Bianca, to an extent- though I have problems with their arcs as well, and even think the messaging for Bianca and Cheren is actually Bleh, but as for like, the main plot? And main theme of the game, where the protagonists have the Black and White dragon legends for a fight of ideas?

The premise is literally black and white though.

There is zero reason for any character in the plot to believe that Pokemon training is wrong, outside of the character who was abused (and that is why he thinks it's wrong).

Every trainer, NPC, thing in the game outside of Team Plasma (who are supposed to be the argument for the opposing side) has an at least on the surface good relationship with Pokemon, don't abuse them, and nothing is shown for any struggle.

The Plot. Is Black and White.
I wanna add onto this that outside of Sun and Moon and a bit of SV: the Pokemon universe, anime, even usually the manga, the games, anything but the spinoffs really; they aren't really allowed to have a systemic issue in the verse.

Team Aqua and Magma bring up an issue that doesn't exist and they're wrong for trying to "fix" nothing, solve their problem, they realize the errors of their ways, we move on.

Team Rocket, despite many people thinking of them as a more realistic gang, is anything but. Almost all of their dialogue shows greed rather than struggle, very rarely is any member obviously in it for any reason that makes good sense. They are just greedy people who misuse Pokemon, often for power or money, while real world gangs are often spawned from poverty/struggle.

Team Galactic is literally just nihilist leader man.

Team Plasma, as previously said, is just entirely wrong. Any acts of abuse are individuals, not systemic, the systems are not wrong.

Team Flare, Lysandre is just. I don't even really know, y'all be talking about it, but nothing of the issues he has are actually real.

Sun and Moon is the only game where a systemic problem is real: Team Skull, despite being read by many as comedic relief, is more realistic than Team Rocket because members join it because they feel like they have been left behind by society. The Island Trial system isn't very inclusive and often isn't good for the psyche, alongside that many of them were abused by people, which shows not just as individuals but a systemic problem. People being disenfranchised -> Joining a group with charismatic leader is a realistic problem.

Rose brings up a systemic problem (the problem with energy) but then the ending of the game is "No, stop interrupting the sports match, this isn't a problem that actually matters". And he's punished for it lol

Legends Arceus is based on a place and time with very real conflicts and has none of that, it's practically Team Sports Colonizer Edition

And finally, Scarlet/Violet tries to do one with the bullying epidemic, so I'll give it points to that for Penny's arc, but that's kinda it. Everything else is individuals.
 
From how I read XY's story

Tl;dr: Lysandre thought the world was overpopulated and was suffering the effects of such (like people fighting each other for limited resources or stealing from one another). I believe that's what the NPCs trying to claim he had a point where referencing.

He thought this behavior was ugly on the world and his idea of beauty was to reduce the world's population in order to create a big enough resources to people ratio for people to no longer fight among each other, steal limited resources, or even have to share materials. This is made somewhat explicit during the climax. Additionally, there was a backstory saying he tried to help others but got taken advantage of in return, and this is where he got his enragement towards humanity as a whole. Sycamore sees where Lysandre got the point in claiming the world was overpopulated, but suggested he could've tried using his role to develop more resources instead of eliminating other people. What Lysandre actually did is a typical villain route to carry and I find it works because it ties to a major backstory that's somewhat deep for a Pokémon game, then connects said backstory with the mysteries of Mega Evolution and the roles of the Legendary Pokémon on the front of the cover, which are what the Pokémon games are about.

I believe X and Y had a lot of fluff but the general premise of Team Flare and their visions were rather simple. Nothing as deep as what many are trying to make it out to be. I believe the reason Lysandre chose to keep Team Flare is because when you have a mass murder weapon that you're planning to use on a global scale, you can only really defend those near you, and Lysandre isn't necessarily Thanos. He couldn't just wipe random selections of the world out of existence. He wanted it to be hard to fit in since his vision was to reduce the world's population by a significant extent, so he charged 5 million Pokedollars to enter.

Ironically enough Lysandre was trying to stabilize the sustainability of populations in a way he saw fit when this was precisely the goal of Xerneas/Yveltal/Zygarde. He tried to play them, to play gods, with a weapon that channeled their energy, only for said gods to suddenly break out of the machine upon waking up then dunk on him.

Idk I just have this placed down to provide my own insight on major parts of XY's story
Instead of engaging with the interpretations you disagreed with, and explaining your disagreements, you laid out a surface level, Wikipedia-style plot summary (bar the bit about the legends) that still misses and misunderstands explicit text. Even if it was correct, there's no reason multiple interpretations couldn't exist simultaneously.

For the sake of clarity, I'll point out why specifically this interpretation is incomplete and incorrect. Here are the major holes.

1)
Tl;dr: Lysandre thought the world was overpopulated and was suffering the effects of such (like people fighting each other for limited resources or stealing from one another)
Partially wrong, partially right. Lysandre does not believe this early-game, but he does believe it late-game.

Early-game Lysandre:
"Kalos is beautiful right now! There will be no foolish actions if the number of people and Pokémon do not increase. That being said, the future isn't decided. You can't be sure each day will be like the one before."

Some kind of change happened to take his beliefs from "Bad things may happen in the future, but the present is fine!" to "The present is not fine / doomed to become so, and requires immediate action!", which he does believe later as you say. The game drops hints at the cause of this change, most explicitly when Sycamore says Lysandre couldn't put his ego aside after his defeat. I integrate those hints more fully in my post.

2)
I believe that's what the NPCs trying to claim he had a point where referencing.
True in isolation, but the way you make this claim is misreading the room. Our problem with "Lysandre had a point" dialogue was not "it doesn't reference anything plausible." Our problem was that saying stuff like "We should meet Lysandre halfway!" is, on its face, nonsense. There's nothing to justify "We should meet the mass murdering terrorist halfway." Even if a line like that had good intentions and ideas that can be saved, it needs some kind of change to better express itself.

3)
He thought this behavior was ugly on the world and his idea of beauty was to reduce the world's population in order to create a big enough resources to people ratio for people to no longer fight among each other, steal limited resources, or even have to share materials.
Lysandre was trying to stabilize the sustainability of populations in a way he saw fit.
Very incomplete. "He was doing what he thought was right" is an overly simplistic understanding that misses key explicit detail from the text. At multiple points, the game explicitly and implicitly prods you to think critically about why he got here, and the mistakes he made along the way. Understanding these mistakes is key for understanding the story. I'm not teasing out subtle explanations here, the game is just telling you right up.

Here are some points of textual evidence:

A) Diantha directly challenges his idea of beauty, calling it ridiculous. (Café Soleil)
B) After Lysandre tells you that he tried to work all on his own (Lysandre Labs) and implies that seeking help from humans is demeaning (Team Flare Secret HQ), Calem / Serena tell him directly that he shouldn't worry about the future all alone, and that he should work together with everyone, not on his own. (Team Flare Secret HQ)
C) Sycamore tells you directly that he was egotistical. (Couriway)
This selfishness angle is also supported by a use of call-back I find cute. Note the similarities between the following dialogues:

Early on: (Lysandre Café)
"People can be divided into two groups. Those who give... And those who take..." "I want to be the kind of person who gives... But in this world, some foolish humans exist who would show their strength by taking what isn't theirs.""They're filth!"
""Long, long ago, the king of Kalos sought to take everything for his own"

Later: (Lysandre Labs)
That's why I decided the only way to save the world was to take it all for myself."
Notice how the giver became the taker, became what he once called filth! ? The descendant of the king of Kalos has, metaphorically, become the new king of Kalos. It's a clever bit of foreshadowing.

4)
Sycamore sees where Lysandre got the point in claiming the world was overpopulated
Mostly wrong, assuming you refer to the Couriway Town dialogue. He says overpopulation "maybe someday" could happen, and doesn't give any credence to Lysandre's belief that it is happening right now.

5)
He couldn't just wipe random selections of the world out of existence. He wanted it to be hard to fit in since his vision was to reduce the world's population by a significant extent, so he charged 5 million Pokedollars to enter.
Underbaked view. There are a zillion possible ways to pick a small subset of the population to join his organization. He could hand-pick some people he trusted, or those that were especially competent in some way. He could pick a random subset of the population to become Team Flare members. He could find people who did public acts of kindness to prevent the kind of greedy world he feared from repeating itself post-weapon.

In a world of all these options, he:
1) Picked the kind of selfish, greedy, and unproductive he people complained about (Team Flare members);
2) Picked people not for their personal skills to work alongside him, but for contributing money that he could use to do the heavy lifting on his own;
3) Picked people on the basis of funneling large sums of money to himself, evoking the greed he complained about;

As a narrative choice, do you think this is a coincidence? That he just happened to use this method to recruit a small subset of people, instead of any other I mentioned? I do not think it was a coincidence.
 
So I think the thing about Black & White is that it's not intended to entertain N or Team Plasma as right in the first place. The series clearly has the "Humans and Pokemon can co-exist" philosophy from the get-go, and at most the point is a Decon-Recon switch where the idea is to have the argument reinforced by presenting a counter that, valid or not, requires expanding on the idea to respond to it. No one is expecting someone's mind to change about how Pokemon works for the audience perspective, so much as make them think about this fantasy series theme in a way that might parallel a real-life discussion.

I disagree with the notion that N's abuse coming up in the last leg of the game is as clumsy as it sounds, in part because it informs his character without being the center of his arc the way Lillie's was (i.e. journey starts with escaping, growth is exemplified in self-sufficiency being learned, and climax is confronting and showing she's stronger than her mother's abuse on her). Throughout the entire game, N is questioning how the player and everyone can think humans living with Pokemon is so normal and good, which is incredibly bizarre given the fairly clean perspective we see from the cast (and meta knowledge for veteran players): the reveal of N's upbringing is contextualizes this because he was never shown this, so he doesn't have your positive experiences to shape his life. Retroactively applying Lillie's lens to N is a disservice to both characters in my opinion, and to an extent even to their respective stories because not all abuses take the same shape or motive (Lusamine had a very warped and conditional form of love, while Ghetsis flat out only saw N as a tool to his own ends) and trying to judge them all with the same narrative criteria is almost Square-peg -> Round-hole.

On top of this, N is an extreme case, but consider he grew up an orphan (what happened to his birth family never directly stated) and only was shown Pokemon he knew before Ghetsis adopted him and then Pokemon who had been mistreated/abused by humans before, along with minimal human contact outside Team Plasma at all. I don't think the story is taking a "Black or White" stance by saying the system should be upheld vs torn down, because immorality exists in both extremes regardless: even if we as a society decided to separate, immoral humans would still use Pokemon; conversely, even with Pokemon living amongst humans and in harmony as shown, abuses still happen that aren't all caught (Ghetsis is never confirmed to be the abuser of the Pokemon N is raised with, just human experiences they had prior).

------------------------------
On a tangential note, here's a hot take of mine: Pokemon works best when its villain are simply bad people, no redemption arc or intended sympathy moment for them (and IS AWARE OF THEM AS SUCH see Lysandre). A major facet of this for me is that when the villain is sympathetic in their motive, stories can be afraid to overdo their wrongs for fear of complicating or shooting the message with the messenger.

We've had a lot of discourse about N, but there's the argument to be made that while he's the rival/antagonist, the Big Bad of Gen 5 is obviously Ghetsis, who isn't quite as layered, but definitely very memorable for some lines he'll cross (both directly and even just verbally) compared to other antagonists we've had. Infamously he had no hesitation about attacking the trainer themselves with Kyurem and implicitly intending to off you and N for getting in the way of his plots.

Lusamine as a consensus is regarded as worse written with the USUM retcon to make her character a Knight-Templar/Anti-Hero figure rather than an outright villain, Chairman Rose is a mess because his extreme actions conflict with his altruistic motive and the anime's tragic history (father dying in a Coal Mine -> Avert an energy crisis, including depending on dangerous jobs like mining), and Archie/Maxie have been memed endlessly for being Eco-terrorists that didn't know how the Water Cycle worked (at least in OG, where Remakes they at least knew and didn't care about collateral damage to Humans/Pokemon, respectively). Most Pokemon stories trying to invoke a morally ambiguous or grey antagonist (at least during said stint as one) have fallen on their face.

By contrast, some of Pokemon's most memorable villains are the ones who display little in the way of redeeming qualities.
  • Giovanni is the most often recurring Leader because of Gen 1 throwbacks, but there's an intimidation factor to an enemy who has no better-quality to reason with when you interfere with his business, such that he can play the big-bad on presence alone in something like Rainbow Rocket next to compatriots controlling Demi-Gods.
  • I already mentioned how SM Lusamine is much better regarded, and one part of this is because despite the sympathetic history preceding her spiral, none of what she says or does during the game is meant to frame her as misunderstood: everything she does to her children and others is explicitly selfish, toxic, and wrong that she needs to try (whether or not she can) make amends for after being put in her place by you and Nebby. For argument's sake, I'm excluding Anime Lusamine here because her actions and the plot rewrite clearly aren't trying to make her a villain in the first place.
  • To bring in a spin-off, Explorers Darkrai is arguably one of the most despicable villains in the series, most memorably because he goes from essentially trying to cause the Apocalypse for his own benefit to manipulating the PC and Partner into considering their own death-and-disappearance as necessary on his second attempt. The game wipes his memory at the end of the plot to handwave his recruitment, but the character he is for the entire narrative is despicable and unrepentant at the end of his agency.
  • While not appearing in the flesh, SV's Professor I'm also inclined to put on this list because while their diaries show a spiral in their work, the legacy they left on the world was a Broken family and an obsession with work that jeopardized and entire Region simply in pursuit of their own hubris and fixation. The measures in place on the time machine essentially confirm that they valued their work's continuance over anything else, such that their shut-down contingencies were basically Booby Traps to eliminate whatever was trying to stop the machine.
One thing a lot of these villains have in common is that they will (knowingly and willingly) step over lines that are hard if not impossible to come back from like trying to end peoples' lives, which ups the stakes of having to halt their plans in the narrative beyond simply moving to the next plot beat.


Unless that's something they changed for HGSS that I forgot about, no you didn't. You definitely didn't in the originals, you walked up and challenged them individually. I've only ever played the remakes the once though, so...
To clarify, yes, this was a change in HGSS, where the Kimono Girls were NPC's you met without battling throughout the game and then faced in a Gauntlet before your Cover Legendary.


Rose brings up a systemic problem (the problem with energy) but then the ending of the game is "No, stop interrupting the sports match, this isn't a problem that actually matters". And he's punished for it lol
So I tend to be one of SwSh's biggest critics in my circle, but I do need to address something here (because ironically it almost aligns with my own different-but-still-significant criticism of this theme).

Leon (and the story by extension) aren't saying to ignore the energy crisis, just not to rush into things literally the night they're talking.

"I think I understand well enough. What I don't understand is why we ought to cancel tomorrow's tournament in order to solve a problem that's a thousand years away from affecting any of us! What difference is one day going to make? My duty as Champion isn't this...this madness. It's to carry out that Championship Match! That's what Galar wants—and what I want! It's what we've all been looking forward to for so long!"

"In a thousand years! Fine. Look. I think I understand your concerns, Chairman. And I give my word I'll help you with your plans...just as soon as tomorrow's match is over."
Leon's response to me always came across as "I will help you with the match, but could you ask me to do this after the big public event we've been preparing for months for and will raise concerns over canceling?"

Rose and the story never present a counter to Leon's question of "what difference is one day going to make?" to suggest Rose's urgency is anything but his own rush into the matter, despite this not just affecting him with his plan OR the problem itself. I could almost read this (accidentally or otherwise) as a message about how taking an immediate, volatile solution doesn't necessarily solve a systemic problem compared to a long-term and collaborative effort (something very prescient at the time and at present), but then Rose's plan DOES solve the energy crisis for Galar, essentially sweeping the problem away rather than leaving it on the table for the cast to say "Rose was insane, but this is a real issue we need to tackle going forward."
 
Speaking of dusknoir, I hate how the game handles his introduction.

He first appears and you get to have 10 minutes of him being nice and cool. You do the amp plains mission, and get a contrived "actually the bosses are going to win" until he appears to save you. Ok, fine, this series loves doing that anyway. After you leave amp plains, you talk to dusknoir and the game decides to just drop the fact he's going to be evil actually immediately.

like 10 minutes later, he makes the portal, calls you and your partner and you know you're going to be yoinked in some way because he's evil. He does that, you get trapped, and then have to spend 20 more minutes with your partner bickering with grovyle about how dusknoir is too nice to have done that to us, which you feel very little emotional stake to because it's a character you spent a total of 20 minutes knowing and the later half was knowing he's evil already.

This is so fucking baffling because explorers has such a slog of a pace, and yet they give you no time to get attached to dusknoir, they dont let you be surprised by dusknoir being evil, and then they just chuck in an unearned denial arc on your partner that you have to tolerate until they come to their senses like the player does.

why not let dusknoir hang around more? have him saving you be something more impactful than "we wanted to get a baby toy and apparently the bosses are gonna beat us up", let him manipulate and work on his plan. maybe he realizes you lost your memory and tries to implant fake ones?? turns you even more against grovyle?? idk man just do anything with this fuckass character lol

the ACT betrayal is more nuanced and hinted at than dusknoirs and that's insane because ACT is honestly a very simple rival team
 
Retroactively applying Lillie's lens to N is a disservice to both characters in my opinion, and to an extent even to their respective stories because not all abuses take the same shape or motive (Lusamine had a very warped and conditional form of love, while Ghetsis flat out only saw N as a tool to his own ends) and trying to judge them all with the same narrative criteria is almost Square-peg -> Round-hole.
My criticism comparing the two isn't that their "abuse is in different ways", it's that I think N is badly written while Lillie is well-written

Mostly because I think N's character-driven conflict is forced while Lillie's makes more sense, and that actually yes I do think this kind of thing should be a part of the character fairly early on rather than just thrown 5 minutes before credits
 
Speaking of dusknoir, I hate how the game handles his introduction.

He first appears and you get to have 10 minutes of him being nice and cool. You do the amp plains mission, and get a contrived "actually the bosses are going to win" until he appears to save you. Ok, fine, this series loves doing that anyway. After you leave amp plains, you talk to dusknoir and the game decides to just drop the fact he's going to be evil actually immediately.

like 10 minutes later, he makes the portal, calls you and your partner and you know you're going to be yoinked in some way because he's evil. He does that, you get trapped, and then have to spend 20 more minutes with your partner bickering with grovyle about how dusknoir is too nice to have done that to us, which you feel very little emotional stake to because it's a character you spent a total of 20 minutes knowing and the later half was knowing he's evil already.

This is so fucking baffling because explorers has such a slog of a pace, and yet they give you no time to get attached to dusknoir, they dont let you be surprised by dusknoir being evil, and then they just chuck in an unearned denial arc on your partner that you have to tolerate until they come to their senses like the player does.

why not let dusknoir hang around more? have him saving you be something more impactful than "we wanted to get a baby toy and apparently the bosses are gonna beat us up", let him manipulate and work on his plan. maybe he realizes you lost your memory and tries to implant fake ones?? turns you even more against grovyle?? idk man just do anything with this fuckass character lol

the ACT betrayal is more nuanced and hinted at than dusknoirs and that's insane because ACT is honestly a very simple rival team
The secret of Explorers of Sky is that its characters aren't actually very good and a lot of the game's charm is based on anime-moments that are very emotional, and I say this as someone who loves the game.

You could describe the Partner's arc as: Isn't self-sufficient -> Meets player -> Player goes bye-bye -> Credits show that this turns Partner into emotional wreck -> Player coming back helps fix problem

It's great fanfic bait but I don't think the partner is actually interesting or that the arc is even well-done, if you could even consider it complete. One of the reasons I love Super Mystery Dungeon so much is that the Partner's arc is basically the plot of the game.

Dusknoir as said is kinda whack, Special Episode 5 in general is required for Dusknoir and Celebi to really get developed. Grovyle is cool but like doesn't have that much to say until Special Episode 5.

A great way to think about how EoS is so moment-driven rather than like, being the most well-thought-out story is: How did Darkrai get to Temporal Tower in the first place? I don't know, and the devs probably didn't know either, considering where Darkrai is in the story, but it sets up the emotional moments that makes it such a hard-hitting game.

Explorers of Sky is kind of the antithesis to a lot of modern writing where it's "How do we make sure this is thought out" rather than impact people, and in a way that is also why the series has had a massive fanfic/fanart scene since the 2000s, let's the fans imagination flesh out the inherent mysteries to the world.

It's very Whimsy-Core, why do the Time Gears exist, seems pretty weird right? Who knows, but they look cool and are cool and plot device and woah they do a thing, here's a plot twist.

Still, that doesn't mean I can't and won't criticize one of my favorite games for not thinking some things out (like that), and I agree with your post very much.
 
Instead of engaging with the interpretations you disagreed with, and explaining your disagreements, you laid out a surface level, Wikipedia-style plot summary (bar the bit about the legends) that still misses and misunderstands explicit text. Even if it was correct, there's no reason multiple interpretations couldn't exist simultaneously.

For the sake of clarity, I'll point out why specifically this interpretation is incomplete and incorrect. Here are the major holes.

1)

Partially wrong, partially right. Lysandre does not believe this early-game, but he does believe it late-game.

Early-game Lysandre:
"Kalos is beautiful right now! There will be no foolish actions if the number of people and Pokémon do not increase. That being said, the future isn't decided. You can't be sure each day will be like the one before."

Some kind of change happened to take his beliefs from "Bad things may happen in the future, but the present is fine!" to "The present is not fine / doomed to become so, and requires immediate action!", which he does believe later as you say. The game drops hints at the cause of this change, most explicitly when Sycamore says Lysandre couldn't put his ego aside after his defeat. I integrate those hints more fully in my post.

2)

True in isolation, but the way you make this claim is misreading the room. Our problem with "Lysandre had a point" dialogue was not "it doesn't reference anything plausible." Our problem was that saying stuff like "We should meet Lysandre halfway!" is, on its face, nonsense. There's nothing to justify "We should meet the mass murdering terrorist halfway." Even if a line like that had good intentions and ideas that can be saved, it needs some kind of change to better express itself.

3)


Very incomplete. "He was doing what he thought was right" is an overly simplistic understanding that misses key explicit detail from the text. At multiple points, the game explicitly and implicitly prods you to think critically about why he got here, and the mistakes he made along the way. Understanding these mistakes is key for understanding the story. I'm not teasing out subtle explanations here, the game is just telling you right up.

Here are some points of textual evidence:

A) Diantha directly challenges his idea of beauty, calling it ridiculous. (Café Soleil)
B) After Lysandre tells you that he tried to work all on his own (Lysandre Labs) and implies that seeking help from humans is demeaning (Team Flare Secret HQ), Calem / Serena tell him directly that he shouldn't worry about the future all alone, and that he should work together with everyone, not on his own. (Team Flare Secret HQ)
C) Sycamore tells you directly that he was egotistical. (Couriway)
This selfishness angle is also supported by a use of call-back I find cute. Note the similarities between the following dialogues:

Early on: (Lysandre Café)



Later: (Lysandre Labs)

Notice how the giver became the taker, became what he once called filth! ? The descendant of the king of Kalos has, metaphorically, become the new king of Kalos. It's a clever bit of foreshadowing.

4)

Mostly wrong, assuming you refer to the Couriway Town dialogue. He says overpopulation "maybe someday" could happen, and doesn't give any credence to Lysandre's belief that it is happening right now.

5)

Underbaked view. There are a zillion possible ways to pick a small subset of the population to join his organization. He could hand-pick some people he trusted, or those that were especially competent in some way. He could pick a random subset of the population to become Team Flare members. He could find people who did public acts of kindness to prevent the kind of greedy world he feared from repeating itself post-weapon.

In a world of all these options, he:
1) Picked the kind of selfish, greedy, and unproductive he people complained about (Team Flare members);
2) Picked people not for their personal skills to work alongside him, but for contributing money that he could use to do the heavy lifting on his own;
3) Picked people on the basis of funneling large sums of money to himself, evoking the greed he complained about;

As a narrative choice, do you think this is a coincidence? That he just happened to use this method to recruit a small subset of people, instead of any other I mentioned? I do not think it was a coincidence.
I don't really care to argue over much of this but I wanted to bring a few things up.

Where did you get the idea that Kalos = World? Yes he thought Kalos was fine... he didn't think the world as a whole was.
The game doesn't prove Lysandre changed his mind throughout the story. His target was the world and he was aiming to use a weapon firing a beam with the intention to cause damage in a worldwide radius. Kalos just got swallowed up into this since there's not much of a feasible way to exclude one region from a world-ranged weapon.

Also
"Even though resources, space, and energy on this planet are limited, the number of people and Pokémon has increased to an unsustainable level. Whether it's money or energy, the ones who steal are the ones who win in this world.""So, tell me. The Mega Ring, did you share it?""When there is only one of something, it can't be shared. When something can't be shared, it will be fought over. And when something is fought over, some must survive without it. The only way to create a world where people live in beauty, a world without conflict or theft, is to reduce the number of living things."

This is directly what he meant by effects of overpopulation, which the Sycamore quote addresses
"And I'd also like to thank you! I'm sincerely grateful for what you did for all of the Pokémon and people of this world. And by stopping Team Flare, you also saved Lysandre. I always knew that he desired a beautiful world...""And maybe someday the population of people and Pokémon will actually increase to where resources become very scarce. If someone acts out of greed in such a world, surely some will go without. If all living things keep acting that way, there will be nothing left at all in the end. Why, there won't even be anything left to steal, will there?"

Several random NPCs after the climax address similar views over this very topic.
 
Unless that's something they changed for HGSS that I forgot about, no you didn't. You definitely didn't in the originals, you walked up and challenged them individually. I've only ever played the remakes the once though, so...

It is something that was changed for the remakes, yes

I will say I can maybe see your point for this on Cheren/Bianca, to an extent- though I have problems with their arcs as well, and even think the messaging for Bianca and Cheren is actually Bleh, but as for like, the main plot? And main theme of the game, where the protagonists have the Black and White dragon legends for a fight of ideas?

The premise is literally black and white though. [...] The Plot. Is Black and White.

It's quite literally the very opposite.

"Black" and "white" aren't fixed concepts - they're words used throughout the story as a figurative expression for two sides of any given topic or divide: people and Pokemon, progress and tradition, truth and ideals, dreams and reality. This concept crops up again and again in the story and the game world in a variety of ways: there are two sides to everything, and different values and ideologies coexist side-by-side.

Except that it's a false distinction. In fact I'd go as far as to say it's unavoidably so, since the games take inspiration from the concept of yin and yang, the very idea of which is that opposites are distinct but intrinsicly interconnected. Opposites depend on their counterparts: sound exists in opposition to silence, day exists in contrast to night. This is best summed up by the NPCs who travel between Black City and White Forest: those in the city wish for less pressure and a quieter lifestyle, while those in the forest express a desire for a more cosmopolitan lifestyle and the excitement of a bustling metropolis. The world is not black and white, because things existing alongside each other inevitably means some intermixing will occur. Those who desire black and white to be distinct are those who push back against that mixing, and who view separatism as preferable. That's N's way of looking at the world:

"Many different values mix together, and the world becomes gray... That is unforgivable! I will separate Pokémon and people, and black and white will be clearly distinct!"

Except that this way of thinking is shown, again and again, to be wrong. Because the notion of two distinct sides being better or more desirable than a mixture of both is repeatedly demonstrated to be unworkable, at least in the context of the games' plot. People and Pokemon are stronger as a union, progress and tradition do not have to be exclusive concepts, there is joy and strength in diversity (something perhaps most obviously showcased in Castelia City).

This idea of interconnection is expressed in a multitude of ways in the Unova games. Hell, it's baked into the formula of the games themselves, though Black and White are the first titles in the series to make such specific use of it. It's even apparent through the mechanics of places like the Entralink, the Dream World, and the Interdream Zone: the player and their Pokemon might be stepping into an alternate reality when visiting those locations, but the items and Pokemon which come from those places are as real as those which don't, and in this way the real world and the world of dreams are drawn together.

This idea of black and white intermingling is also reflected in the way the supposedly contrasting goals of "truth" and "ideals" are, in fact, nothing of the sort - rather, they're actually completely interchangeable. On paper they may seem opposed, but what's apparent is that for those unwilling to consider opposing viewpoints, the two concepts become conflated: one person's "truth" may seem like idealism to others, while an idealism can become so overwhelmingly powerful that it becomes indistinguishable from what the holder perceives to be the truth.

So the defining conflict of the games - the struggle to separate Pokemon from people - is shown to be built on sand because it is fundamentally based on a lie, which N comes to realise across the course of the story:

"It's about when I first met you in Accumula Town. I was shocked when I heard what your Pokémon was saying. I was shocked because that Pokémon said it liked you. It said it wanted to be with you. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't believe there were Pokémon that liked people. Because, up until that moment, I'd never known a Pokémon like that. The longer my journey continued, the more unsure I became. All I kept meeting were Pokémon and people who communicated with one another and helped one another. That was why I needed to confirm my beliefs by battling with you. I wanted to confront you hero-to-hero. I needed that more than anything."

There is zero reason for any character in the plot to believe that Pokemon training is wrong, outside of the character who was abused (and that is why he thinks it's wrong).

Every trainer, NPC, thing in the game outside of Team Plasma (who are supposed to be the argument for the opposing side) has an at least on the surface good relationship with Pokemon, don't abuse them, and nothing is shown for any struggle.

Why do any people believe things that aren't true? Because they're lied to. This point is made repeatedly in the story; Team Plasma sow doubt and discord, and people are swayed by it.

After their speech in Opelucid City, an NPC wonders "Is it true? Have we been making Pokemon suffer?" with a second adding "Maybe we should release our Pokemon like Team Plasma said..." Not even all of those people agree: a third NPC says "No way!" and Cheren rejects the idea out of hand when he first hears it.

You don't have to look particularly far in the real world to see examples of people who believe things that are categorically untrue, so I'm not sure why the idea that a demonstrable reality (Pokemon training is good) should be some infallible sacred cow in the Pokemon world. I really don't understand this idea that fictional characters are, or should be, any more immune to irrational behaviour or groupthink than real people.

N's beliefs are truly held - he was deceived by Ghetsis, but his view that the relationship between people and Pokemon is inherently and innately harmful comes from something real. The problem is that it is a truth, but it is not the truth - whether we like it or not, the truth is not singular and it is rarely simple. And those who refuse to consider other viewpoints as equally valid are those from whom conflict springs. Alder literally sums this up as concisely

"N, even if we don't understand each other, that's not a reason to reject each other. There are two sides to any argument. Is there one point of view that has all the answers? Give it some thought."

Sure, there are simple and unambiguous truths, both in this story and the real world. As someone expressed a few posts back, you are under no obligation to attempt to meet bigots and extremists halfway, and it's often counterproductive to even try. But for the most part it's driven home that the mingling of black and white - the grayness N speaks of - is actually the true, desirable state of things, and is stronger by far than a stark black-and-white world would be (if indeed such a world could even exist). Two things can be distinct from each other without necessarily being separate, and two different sides of a divide are not always irreconcilable.

So I have to disagree that the plot of these games is "black and white"; if anything it's the distinct opposite. It's a binary that's almost instantly demonstrated to be a flawed premise.
 
Last edited:
"Many different values mix together, and the world becomes gray... That is unforgivable! I will separate Pokémon and people, and black and white will be clearly distinct!"
I'm gonna touch back on this later, but I agree that this is an interesting line and could be very meaningful, and could be read as a counter to my point.

However, I don't agree with the game here, and as I want to explain later: The game IMO thinks itself to be way more thought-provoking than it is. In this example, this posits that people and Pokemon being together is the "Gray Option", however I disagree:

In the context of the game's premise Question, it's Thesis: "Should Pokemon and people be together?" the answer for either is Yes or No, and that saying that training is fine is not Gray- it is Yes, Black or White depending on your view.

Gray would be nuance, which I do not think the answer to the question in the game actually has.

"Black" and "white" aren't fixed concepts - they're words used throughout the story as a figurative expression for two sides of any given topic or divide: people and Pokemon, progress and tradition, truth and ideals, dreams and reality. This concept crops up again and again in the story and the game world in a variety of ways: there are two sides to everything, and different values and ideologies coexist side-by-side.
The one the game focuses on, people and Pokemon, is something that has a very clear answer, there is no in-between on the topic.

The rest is small themes brought up that actually do not end up mattering much. Just because the game alludes at certain themes doesn't mean I have to take them seriously, Reshiram and Zekrom may have cool ideas at their cores but genuinely things like "dreams and reality" do not actually matter to the plot outside of a very loose interpretation.

At best there is Cheren and Bianca who generally are not that important and is basically like three scenes each.

The biggest plot and the one most people care about is N and Ghetsis/Team Plasma, the one the game beats you over the head with. And to be clear, none of the Cheren/Bianca stuff actually really ties into that at all, outside of: Loose interpretations.

So the defining conflict of the games - the struggle to separate Pokemon from people - is shown to be built on sand because it is fundamentally based on a lie, which N comes to realise across the course of the story:
This is bad writing though IMO..

Like if you read a book where it's about if something is right or wrong, and then the answer was just that the people with one viewpoint were fed a lie, that'd be boring, unsatisfying, and generally get it bad reviews.

Because you made a book about Is Thing Moral, and then the answer is The Status Quo is Fine, And The Opposers Are Just Abused-And-Wrong

Which is boring.

"It's about when I first met you in Accumula Town. I was shocked when I heard what your Pokémon was saying. I was shocked because that Pokémon said it liked you. It said it wanted to be with you. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't believe there were Pokémon that liked people. Because, up until that moment, I'd never known a Pokémon like that. The longer my journey continued, the more unsure I became. All I kept meeting were Pokémon and people who communicated with one another and helped one another. That was why I needed to confirm my beliefs by battling with you. I wanted to confront you hero-to-hero. I needed that more than anything."
Again, still bad writing. This is just a fundamentally not interesting arc for the character or way to take the themes of the game.

Why do any people believe things that aren't true? Because they're lied to. This point is made repeatedly in the story; Team Plasma sow doubt and discord, and people are swayed by it.
Having people just be lied to isn't an actually interesting story when the story hinges on a moral question.

You don't have to look particularly far in the real world to see examples of people who believe things that are categorically untrue, so I'm not sure why the idea that a demonstrable reality (Pokemon training is good) should be some infallible sacred cow in the Pokemon world. I really don't understand this idea that fictional characters are, or should be, any more immune to irrational behaviour or groupthink than real people.
Because fiction isn't just "What if this thing was in a book", stories are ways we convey ideas.

Most books that tackle the status quo of a universe almost always side with "the status quo is wrong" for a reason, it's because that is an interesting plot point. Stories where the populace has been lied to use that as the status quo to be taken down, not as what the world may fall to.

Preventing the status quo from changing is generally just not satisfying, and stories about this (that work) have to be very character focused. It's less about why we are stopping the villain from ruining the world, and more about what this means for the characters, their travels, or other themes.

Now, this is why I focus on the fact that I think BW's character writing (mostly the protag and N) sucks. Because IMO that inherently ruins the story. Now the plot has no reason to exist and the characters don't have an interesting reason to exist either.

It leaves me thinking, "What are we even doing here?" N was wrong, the player had no real input, the plot was just stop Ghetsis at its core, all the themes didn't really end up mattering.

It's pointless.

N's beliefs are truly held - he was deceived by Ghetsis, but his view that the relationship between people and Pokemon is inherently and innately harmful comes from something real. The problem is that it is a truth, but it is not the truth - whether we like it or not, the truth is not singular and it is rarely simple. And those who refuse to consider other viewpoints as equally valid are those from whom conflict springs.
This truth is very simple though.

Because there is only 1 example of any Pokemon being mistreated in the entirety of BW1 and it is Team Plasma. Who are supposed to be the proponents of this ideology.

This question is Black and White.

Alder literally sums this up as concisely

"N, even if we don't understand each other, that's not a reason to reject each other. There are two sides to any argument. Is there one point of view that has all the answers? Give it some thought."
Alder can say this, the game can think it's thought-provoking, but it isn't. There is no reason to have two sides to this conflict.

Sure, there are simple and unambiguous truths, both in this story and the real world. As someone expressed a few posts back, you are under no obligation to attempt to meet bigots and extremists halfway, and it's often counterproductive to even try. But for the most part it's driven home that the mingling of black and white - the grayness N speaks of - is actually the true, desirable state of things, and is stronger by far than a stark black-and-white world would be (if indeed such a world could even exist). Two things can be distinct from each other without necessarily being separate, and two different sides of a divide are not always irreconcilable.
My problem with your whole analysis isn't that I think you're wrong on what the plot should be, but that I think you are putting a lot more meaning into a story that isn't all that meaningful.

Like, ultimately this is a Pokemon game where characters have like 50 lines of dialogue (on the upper end), they rarely have many character traits, and these stories are very linear.

That isn't to say a Pokemon game can't have excellent themes and deliver, that is why I defend Sun and Moon to My Grave.

But ultimately I feel like Gen 5 is fanfic bait rather than an actually well-written story. The game thinks it's saying more than it is, and what it thinks is meaningful ends up having no nuance. The game can have characters say lines that would be thought-provoking in almost any other story, and fit most stories beautifully, but they're in a story with actually very little nuance.

That's when you pull out the great characters, but I do not think BW has great characters

Genuinely, I'm glad that the story gives you more to chew on, and that you give more to the story- but for me all of this reads dryly and flat. It's a mirage to me.
 
Where did you get the idea that Kalos = World? Yes he thought Kalos was fine... he didn't think the world as a whole was.
The game doesn't prove Lysandre changed his mind throughout the story. His target was the world and he was aiming to use a weapon firing a beam with the intention to cause damage in a worldwide radius. Kalos just got swallowed up into this since there's not much of a feasible way to exclude one region from a world-ranged weapon.
Because the real question is "Did he change his mind?" I'll show that, yes, he did, with a more straightforward and time-efficient argument that doesn't require getting into Kalos versus the world.

Lysandre in Lysandre Café, early on (paraphrased):

- "People are either givers or takers, and I'm a giver"
- "The king of Kalos, who took everything for himself and unleashed the ultimate weapon, was reprehensible"
- "The future isn't decided"

Lysandre in Lysandre Labs / Team Flare Secret HQ, later (paraphrased):

- "I'm taking everything for myself" (ergo, I'm a taker)
- I want to take everything for myself and unleash the ultimate weapon, but I'm not reprehensible, I'm justified
- I can only see one future, a tragic future
 
Back
Top