Pokémon is ruined by the thoughtless creation of new forms

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The Legendary Dogs were first created by Ho-Oh after the Brass Tower burned down to become the Burned Tower. This burning down happened 150 years before GSC. But now the Legendary Dogs have been revealed to exist since pre-history.

Regigigas created the 3 Regis and has 3 different coloured gems in his body, a colour for each of the Regis that he made. But now we have 2 new Regis that he evidently forgot to make gems for.

Slowbro was able to stand up because the Shellder adds weight to his tail. But now he can stand up without that weight even when the Shellder adds weight to his arms.

Pokémon has been ruined. Gone is the cool lore beind it. All that remains are ruins and randomly shat out Pokémon forms. Pokémon is now GF's litter box. And we are the poop mites.
 
So...you don't even know what you are complaining about. The "dogs" have not been revealed to exist since pre-history, Paradoxes are from another timeline.

We don't know if Regigigas created its gems. While the two Galar Regis are obviously an afterthrought, there could still be traces of them under the moss in their creator. This is a weird thing to complain when Enamorus exists and it's way more blatant, but I disgress.

I don't even understand the Slowbro one. Why can Slowking stand then?
 
The Legendary Dogs were first created by Ho-Oh after the Brass Tower burned down to become the Burned Tower. This burning down happened 150 years before GSC. But now the Legendary Dogs have been revealed to exist since pre-history.

We don't actually know this for certain. Sources differ in-game because it's a legend, not established fact, but the three Pokemon who perished in the Brass Tower are simply described as "nameless" by NPCs. Whether they were originally a Suicune, Entei, and Raikou (just as-yet undiscovered and therefore unnamed) or different Pokemon altogether is not clear. There's a relatively popular fanon theory that the trio were a Vaporeon, Flareon, and Jolteon respectively (or even three Eevee) but nothing officially supports this: the idea that they were always Suicune, Entei, and Raikou is every bit as valid as the idea that they weren't.

Pokemon Generations does show silhouettes of them pre-death in which they're just generic cat/dog shapes, but it's pretty evident that these aren't intended to be existing Pokemon and are more akin to placeholders - if it ever is revealed in future that they were entirely different Pokemon or forms beforehand, I wouldn't expect whoever designs them to stick closely to this.

1720785302386.png


Regardless, as the previous poster said, the Paradox forms are intended to be versions of those Pokemon from alternate timelines.


Regigigas created the 3 Regis and has 3 different coloured gems in his body, a colour for each of the Regis that he made. But now we have 2 new Regis that he evidently forgot to make gems for.

It's a valid complaint, but there could be a hundred in-universe reasons as to why it lacks gems for the two additional Regis. Perhaps it's because of the fact it lacks their gems that those two are separate from the others - or it could be the other way round entirely; they separated from the others because it lacks their gems.

If you really want to make a connection one could suggest that the yellow pads on its body and the black markings could represent Regieleki and Regidrago but that's pushing it a little. Regardless, I don't think it ruins the mythology in the way you imply. Pre-Gen VIII, the Pokedex states that it made the original three golems - nothing ever said they were the only ones. To put it another way: if I said "I have a son", that tells you nothing about whether I have any other children too.


Slowbro was able to stand up because the Shellder adds weight to his tail. But now he can stand up without that weight even when the Shellder adds weight to his arms.

...where is this stated? The only thing the Pokedex says about on the matter is:

Shield Pokedex entry: Being bitten by a Shellder shocked this Pokémon into standing on two legs. If the Shellder lets go, it seems Slowbro will turn back into a Slowpoke.

Which would imply that Slowking can stand for much the same reason - the toxins from the Shellder gave it incredible intelligence, which apparently covers standing upright. But it's nothing to do with the weight of the Shellder.

See, the Pokedex has its uses, it's not all impossible physical feats and ridiculous claims about heat and light...

Pokémon has been ruined. Gone is the cool lore beind it. All that remains are ruins and randomly shat out Pokémon forms. Pokémon is now GF's litter box. And we are the poop mites.

More than a little overdramatic. I'm unconvinced this post was entirely written in good faith but whatever, at least this reply was interesting to write.
 
where is this stated?
I think Professor Westwood V says it in https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/EP066 .


Regardless, as the previous poster said, the Paradox forms are intended to be versions of those Pokemon from alternate timelines.
Paradoxes are from another timeline.
That makes it even worse. Where is the alternate timeline Ho-Oh? Celebi can time travel but not Ho-Oh.


We don't actually know this for certain. Sources differ in-game because it's a legend, not established fact,
Of course! Ho-Oh does not get Revival Blessing, proving that he cannot revive Pokémon! All this time we have been fooled, taken for mindless morons.


Those Pokémon have never died. This is even proven by the fact that the Kimono Girls use all Eeveelutions including those who supposedly died. And if they did die, then were are the Psychic and Dark Legendary Dogs?

The Legendary Dogs must have been there all along.


This is a weird thing to complain when Enamorus exists and it's way more blatant, but I disgress.
What is wrong with Enamorous?
 
correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it widely accepted that anime lore is very much detached from in-game lore?
The anime lore is more reliable. The game contradicts itself with things like letting you see Shedinja's back sprite while keeping your soul and having Shuppet evolve into Banette and then saying Banette actually came from a doll. I trust Professor Westwood V more than I do the games. i have never heard Professor Westwood V be wrong.
 
I know people are saying this user is arguing in bad-faith, but I want to respond to these legitimately just because the Beasts/Paradox thing is one I frequntly argue against.
I think Professor Westwood V says it in https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/EP066 .


That makes it even worse. Where is the alternate timeline Ho-Oh? Celebi can time travel but not Ho-Oh.


Of course! Ho-Oh does not get Revival Blessing, proving that he cannot revive Pokémon! All this time we have been fooled, taken for mindless morons.


Those Pokémon have never died. This is even proven by the fact that the Kimono Girls use all Eeveelutions including those who supposedly died. And if they did die, then were are the Psychic and Dark Legendary Dogs?

The Legendary Dogs must have been there all along.


What is wrong with Enamorous?
So from top to bottom
  • The Anime is not consistent with the games for multiple reasons. Whether you like one version or the other more, you can't really apply something the anime says to the games since they're worked on by different teams and with different rulsets. Even with this in mind, there's the entirely grounded explanation that Westwood is not aware of a Slowbro variant that occurs in another region with unique spices/toxins in its system that affect the evolution.
  • On the alternate timeline, the point is that the Paradox Pokemon are versions of their lookalike species pulled into the game timeline where they otherwise are not naturally occurring (i.e. Gouging Fire is "Entei" in whatever reality it was pulled out of). The Time Travel that brings them in is because of a man-made element in SV's plot, not something done by Ho-oh, so Ho-oh lacking time travel is irrelevant to the point.
  • Ho-oh does not have Revival Blessing, but is consistently depicted with the "Sacred Ash" item which can revive an entire party of Pokemon, if we stick to Fainting being analogous to death for this point.
  • The Kimono Girls' Eeveelutions are a non sequitur for the theory's validity. The theory does not argue that "the species of Jolteon, Vaporeon, and Flareon died in the fire and all became the Beasts' species" such that they don't exist now, it is that an individual of each of those three died and was revived as the respective Beast (not even strictly that this was the inception of Entei/Raikou/Suicune existing in general). Espeon and Umbreon don't have counterparts because the legend is to explain these beasts existing to onlookers who don't know even what died in there, and the simplest explanation for the theory is that Umbreon and Espeon weren't among Pokemon trapped in the burning tower.
  • Enamorus is extremely contentious for its addition to The Forces of Nature because it feels incredibly superfluous. Beforehand there was a clear dynamic of Tornadus and Thundurus being troublemakers who fight until Landorus beats them into behaving. Enamorus doesn't fit into this dynamic for a few reasons
    • Her Pokedex entry states she would punish those who disrespect life, but doesn't interfere with those two despite this being a direct consequence of them running around causing storms
    • Enamorus is placed parallel to Landorus in role (bringing bounty to Hisui rather than destruction like the two lesser members), but it confusingly shares its BST with the "lesser" members at 580. The Regis at least have the excuse that Regigigas could have just built other Golems that weren't found, and Eleki/Drago have stats that reflect more logically on the existing members.
    • Enamorus's theme of Love-Hate is far more abstract than the elemental feel of the other 3 Kami, so again, feels very out of place. It's like if you added a 4th Legendary Beast to Fire/Thunder/Water and the new one was "Courage" or "Nobility" as the main theme.
 
The Regis at least have the excuse that Regigigas could have just built other Golems that weren't found, and Eleki/Drago have stats that reflect more logically on the existing members.
I think the Regis makes just as little sense:
- Why would Regigigas have gems for some Regis and not others? It makes no sense that he would.
- Regigigas was all about pulling the continents together. He pulled them together using his mighty ropes before resting from this epic endeavor. Continents are made of rocks, metals, and Ice. They are not made of dragons and electricity.
- The Galar Regis do not follow the stat pattern nor the ability pattern of the Hoenn Regis.
- Appearantly, Regidrago flies.
 
I think the Regis makes just as little sense:
- Why would Regigigas have gems for some Regis and not others? It makes no sense that he would.

It’s an inessential design link. After all, it’s not as if Arceus has any body parts corresponding to the six Pokémon that it created. Regigigas doesn’t necessarily need to display gems on its body for every Regi that it produced. Especially if Regigigas naturally has those six adornments on its body, regardless of any Regis it has created — in that scenario, the gems’ association with the first three Regis would be more of a post facto connection.

Continents are made of rocks, metals, and Ice. They are not made of dragons and electricity.

This is pretty arbitrary. Continents aren’t exclusively made of rocks, metals, and ice; they’re comprised of a lot of things. So if your logic is that the Regis are meant to represent the constituent elements of continents, then frankly there should be a lot more of them.

(And while dragons are fictitious, electric charge is a fundamental property of matter. The matter that makes up a continent would contain plenty of electricity, too.)
 
I know people are saying this user is arguing in bad-faith, but I want to respond to these legitimately just because the Beasts/Paradox thing is one I frequntly argue against.

So from top to bottom
  • The Anime is not consistent with the games for multiple reasons. Whether you like one version or the other more, you can't really apply something the anime says to the games since they're worked on by different teams and with different rulsets. Even with this in mind, there's the entirely grounded explanation that Westwood is not aware of a Slowbro variant that occurs in another region with unique spices/toxins in its system that affect the evolution.
  • On the alternate timeline, the point is that the Paradox Pokemon are versions of their lookalike species pulled into the game timeline where they otherwise are not naturally occurring (i.e. Gouging Fire is "Entei" in whatever reality it was pulled out of). The Time Travel that brings them in is because of a man-made element in SV's plot, not something done by Ho-oh, so Ho-oh lacking time travel is irrelevant to the point.
  • Ho-oh does not have Revival Blessing, but is consistently depicted with the "Sacred Ash" item which can revive an entire party of Pokemon, if we stick to Fainting being analogous to death for this point.
  • The Kimono Girls' Eeveelutions are a non sequitur for the theory's validity. The theory does not argue that "the species of Jolteon, Vaporeon, and Flareon died in the fire and all became the Beasts' species" such that they don't exist now, it is that an individual of each of those three died and was revived as the respective Beast (not even strictly that this was the inception of Entei/Raikou/Suicune existing in general). Espeon and Umbreon don't have counterparts because the legend is to explain these beasts existing to onlookers who don't know even what died in there, and the simplest explanation for the theory is that Umbreon and Espeon weren't among Pokemon trapped in the burning tower.
  • Enamorus is extremely contentious for its addition to The Forces of Nature because it feels incredibly superfluous. Beforehand there was a clear dynamic of Tornadus and Thundurus being troublemakers who fight until Landorus beats them into behaving. Enamorus doesn't fit into this dynamic for a few reasons
    • Her Pokedex entry states she would punish those who disrespect life, but doesn't interfere with those two despite this being a direct consequence of them running around causing storms
    • Enamorus is placed parallel to Landorus in role (bringing bounty to Hisui rather than destruction like the two lesser members), but it confusingly shares its BST with the "lesser" members at 580. The Regis at least have the excuse that Regigigas could have just built other Golems that weren't found, and Eleki/Drago have stats that reflect more logically on the existing members.
    • Enamorus's theme of Love-Hate is far more abstract than the elemental feel of the other 3 Kami, so again, feels very out of place. It's like if you added a 4th Legendary Beast to Fire/Thunder/Water and the new one was "Courage" or "Nobility" as the main theme.
On the case of Enamorus, I feel like it’s more that they wanted to finally complete the quartet of the four symbols, with Enamorus being Genbu, or the Black Tortoise. The Black Tortoise is depicted as female commonly, hence the gender. I’ve always thought Landorus was always the leader of the Forces of Nature, hence the higher BST.
 
honestly enamorus has an extra design element that makes me wish the genies were designed with from the start: the association with spring. How come that in the generation that had one of its main world designs be seasons, they took a natural quartet and didn't think of making any connections with seasons? Hell, the four symbols have connection to the seasons already! They didn't have to follow the connection 1:1, changing the seasons around is fine, but the fact that the concept existed, and they instead just put 3 of the 4 guys in is so weird.

Ofc if they had been designed with this in mind, the genies would have been different pokémon and not the ones we currently have, but even with the current designs we could have a little retcon about it

tornadus - autumn, the winds of autumn in specific
thundurus - summer, the storms of summer
landorus - this one is the most problematic, because winter isn't represented by any of the genies design wise so it'd be a bit of a shoehorn, but I could see the inertia of winter with landorus concept of being the leader, imposing and immovable.
 
honestly enamorus has an extra design element that makes me wish the genies were designed with from the start: the association with spring. How come that in the generation that had one of its main world designs be seasons, they took a natural quartet and didn't think of making any connections with seasons? Hell, the four symbols have connection to the seasons already! They didn't have to follow the connection 1:1, changing the seasons around is fine, but the fact that the concept existed, and they instead just put 3 of the 4 guys in is so weird.

Ofc if they had been designed with this in mind, the genies would have been different pokémon and not the ones we currently have, but even with the current designs we could have a little retcon about it

tornadus - autumn, the winds of autumn in specific
thundurus - summer, the storms of summer
landorus - this one is the most problematic, because winter isn't represented by any of the genies design wise so it'd be a bit of a shoehorn, but I could see the inertia of winter with landorus concept of being the leader, imposing and immovable.
Landorus could be Summer, a time when life is abundant but harsher than Spring (since he's the disciplinarian member of the group), while Thundurus is Winter where you get storms with precipitation and not just Wind.

Or maybe Landorus is Autumn for when the Harvest begins (tied heavily to Farmers worshipping it as the Abundance Pokemon) while Thundurus is the Summer Mon for the mentioned reason, and Tornadus is Winter where Winds are Cold and Harsh. This also means Landorus and Enamorus keep the two seasons apart just like Tornadus and Thundurus refraining from fighting each other out of fear of Landorus coming down on them both.
 
Or maybe Landorus is Autumn for when the Harvest begins (tied heavily to Farmers worshipping it as the Abundance Pokemon) while Thundurus is the Summer Mon for the mentioned reason, and Tornadus is Winter where Winds are Cold and Harsh. This also means Landorus and Enamorus keep the two seasons apart just like Tornadus and Thundurus refraining from fighting each other out of fear of Landorus coming down on them both.

I really like this one. A winter bird does step a bit on articunos toes but tbf my original suggestion does make a cat-like winter creature which would step on chien-paos toes instead, and I checked and bleakwind storm used to give frostbite anyway, so the connection with winter was pulled a bit (wonder why they didn't try to make wildbolt storm burn instead of sandsear storm, since right now thundurus is the odd one out with no attempts to pull from seasons, and like you said landorus is much more fall coded than anything else)
 
This is pretty arbitrary. Continents aren’t exclusively made of rocks, metals, and ice; they’re comprised of a lot of things. So if your logic is that the Regis are meant to represent the constituent elements of continents, then frankly there should be a lot more of them.
Out of all the Pokemon types, Rock; Steel, and Ice are the only that really fit.
Especially if Regigigas naturally has those six adornments on its body, regardless of any Regis it has created — in that scenario, the gems’ association with the first three Regis would be more of a post facto connection.
That does not change anything. Whether he made the Hoenn Regis to suit his body or he changed his body to suit the Hoenn Regis, it is weird that the Galar Regis did not get the same treatment and it makes them look like they do not belong.
(And while dragons are fictitious, electric charge is a fundamental property of matter. The matter that makes up a continent would contain plenty of electricity, too.)
But you do not pull on electricity with ropes and strength. The electrical charge is just a property of the cntinents that Regigigas would ignore. He would be occupied with the things he tiss his ropes arund, rocks, ice, and metals.

To me it would make more sense if the Galar Regies were just knck offs that had nothing to do with Regigigas.
 
thundurus - summer, the storms of summer

This shouldn't be theory mon because pokemon would just never do this for good reasons, but the wasted potential for linking these guys into seasons and enriching their designs will always annoy me. I feel like even enamorus is stuck needing to fit with the design conventions of the og genies and cant really bring in the spring feel because of it. heres a thundurus yay

thundurus.png
 
The anime lore is more reliable. The game contradicts itself with things like letting you see Shedinja's back sprite while keeping your soul and having Shuppet evolve into Banette and then saying Banette actually came from a doll. I trust Professor Westwood V more than I do the games. i have never heard Professor Westwood V be wrong.
A lot of the Pokedex is folklore in-universe. The frequent uses of "it is said that" or "it is believed to" isn't just janky translation. It's the same as saying in real life "it is said that a black cat crossing your path brings bad luck".
 
- The Galar Regis do not follow the stat pattern nor the ability pattern of the Hoenn Regis.

oh god why am I replying to this again Uh, yes they do? All five have a BST of 580, arranged as 80/50/50/100/100/200 in varying orders excepting Registeel, who splits the difference when it comes to defences and offenses and has a stat arrangement of 80/75/75/150/150/50 instead.
 
Out of all the Pokemon types, Rock; Steel, and Ice are the only that really fit.

Not really? Continents contain far more Ground than they would Ice. Also vegetation (Grass) and inland water bodies (Water). Volcanoes would also count for Fire, as would the many natural toxic substances and chemical elements that would count for Poison. You can't reasonably claim that Steel and Ice are "more" conncted to what continents are than any of these other things.
 
oh god why am I replying to this again Uh, yes they do? All five have a BST of 580, arranged as 80/50/50/100/100/200 in varying orders excepting Registeel, who splits the difference when it comes to defences and offenses and has a stat arrangement of 80/75/75/150/150/50 instead.
The stat pattern is having twice as many defence as the respective offence and 80 HP and 50 Speed.

The pattern you mention does not exist and never existed because Registeel does not follow it. It cannot be a pattern if they do not all follow it. Regigigas of course does not cuont because he is the leader so he is special.

Though now that I think about it, Registeel is the coolest looking of them all, so maybe that makes him second in command. Maybe that is why his stat pattern is special.
 
Not really? Continents contain far more Ground than they would Ice. Also vegetation (Grass) and inland water bodies (Water). Volcanoes would also count for Fire, as would the many natural toxic substances and chemical elements that would count for Poison. You can't reasonably claim that Steel and Ice are "more" conncted to what continents are than any of these other things.
Ground is not a material. Ground is made of whatever your floor is made of. If you mean soil, those are for a large part rocks and metals.

Water is liquid and cannot be pulled with ropes nor can golems be made out of it. Besides, water is not what continents are made of, even if continents cotain water like how a bottle can contain water. Water is what the continents drift in. Water is the opposite of the continents, in the sense that wherever Regigigas would not place a continent there would be water. Water may be the worst type of them all to pick for this reason.

Plants mostly grow on top of the continents. Their roots do not go that deep and they break down into minerals when they die.

Fire is not solid and cannot be pulled with ropes and really is not what continents are made of. Volcanoes are made of rocks metals, etc and contain lava/magma. When pulling a volcano you would not tie the rope around the magma or lava.

Continents are not poisonous. Anything can be poisonous when consumed in large quantities, even water and carrots. But the Poison type is mostly about stronger poisons. Since we can live on continents, they cannot be that poisonous.

Ice is connected to cntinents because some continents contain a lot of ice or snow.

And metal supposedly is what a large part of the Earth is made of. (https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/University_of_Missouri/MU:__1330H_(Keller)/23:_Metals_and_Metallurgy/23.1:_Occurance_and_Distribution_of__Metals#:~:text=The mass of the Earth,Figure 23.1.)

So yes, Rock, Steel, and Ice are the types that really fit. Continents are not made for a large part of fire or poison. If they were then no one would be able to live on them.
 
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in a more serious post: as someone who's a worldbuilder, this stuff happens pretty constantly. Creating set pieces and then adding more of them in because you want to expand the concept. The main difference is because pokémon is pretty lore light/a lot of its explanations just never leave the design and lore bible, we don't get to see the writers come up with a new excuse to explain it (I'm not saying this as an insult, 50% of creative decisions in art and worldbuilding are bullshitting your way to add something you like). Even if there are explanations, it's up to the player to find them out and the level of obfuscation is much higher than something like a sequel justifying its own premise.

tl;dr: this is extremely common in fiction writing, pokemon is just not interested in putting a curtain over it to hide that its adding new things because it wants to, like most of us do to make it feel more "genuine"
 
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