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Keep the following things in mind during every Research Group:
Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; look at its stats, movepool, and typing and think something up!
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Early period means the first three days of the research week, so let's keep the theorymoning to a minimum after. The late period refers to the last four days of the research week, where raw evidence and discussion should become the basis of the thread.
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The prizes for Research Week have been decided; winning a research week will grant you half-ops on our IRC channel, #rarelyused.
You must post a ladder ranking in order to win the above prizes.
This Week's Research Pokemon:
Abomasnow | Combusken | Xatu
How useful are these Pokemon in XY RU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #rarelyused as well!
The Research Group Challenge:
In order to participate you must do the following:
Post here with a fresh alt and the name(s) of the Pokemon you will be using.
Use at least one of the Pokemon being researched.
Post your experiences with the Pokemon you're using, participate in the discussion!
Post logs of this Pokemon in action against other teams - don't just tell us, show us!
The first stage of the challenge will be very relaxed so theorymon will be allowed as long as its backed up by good reasoning. During the later stage, discussion will be expected to be backed up by hard evidence, such as teams, actual sets, and logs. The winner of the challenge will be the person who has the highest ladder ranking on the Pokemon Showdown RU ladder on the alt they registered at the time the challenge ends. Prizes are currently being discussed with higher powers, so hang tight while I find something worth your guys' attention.
It actually hits hard, only with a Calm Mind and a Life Orb... I'm Trying using the three of the subjects with Sharpedo to make a Fire-Grass-Water core, Aromatisse for Trick Room (which also helps Mega Abomasnow), and Cobalion as a receiver for Baton Passing Combusken, also having a nice 4x resistance to rocks.
i'm using a kinda weird spread with 252 HP / 92+ ATK / 164 SPD. The HP to make it bulky with an eviolite (it does have almost the same defenses than a non invested Mew or Celebi with it, which is enough to withstand some neutral attacks while setupping), and the speed is to reach 187 spd which just make Combusken outspeed Dugtrio at +2 and use Baton Pass to avoid being trapped. Also, at +1 it can outspeed max neutral natured 90 pokés like some Moltres and Meloetta...
So far I've been using Mega Abomasnow in ladder, and I must admit, it's extremely bulky and powerful with STAB Blizzards doing tons of damage. I'll do a quick overview:
This set covers a lot of ground (no pun intended). It has Sub to be safe after I take a hit, because Abomasnow has massive bulk even uninvested, 200 HP gives us an odd number so we can switch into rocks 4 times as opposed to 3. And I decided to lower speed because I didn't want to sacrifice Bulk, my base speed is 30 so lowering it isn't a terrible idea, as I won't be outspeeding anything besides like Slowking, but my team deals with it. But Abomasnow does have it's cons: It's typing is just atrocious defensively, sporting a whopping 7 weaknesses altogether, including a 4x weakness to Fire, and Fire is a pretty common typing in RU (Emboar, Moltres, Delphox). It's also extremely easy to wear down even with Giga Drain, as Mega Aboma lacks a valuable item in Leftovers. I had a bit of trouble making a team around him as my primary win condition, but it has paid off quite well. Anyway, the set I use is a Mixed Snow with Sub to take advantage of it's great mixed bulk, weak attacks like, I don't know, a Psychic from a Claydol or a defensive Cress. Blizzard and Giga Drain for STAB, pretty much resisted by Fire Types, and Earthquake for nice coverage against Fire Types, Steel Types or Electric Types. This set has pretty much unresisted coverage, all I can think that can wall this, is a Levitate Bronzong, but I've seen Bronzong run Heatproof over Levitate as of late, probably it's just me though. I think this pokemon needs more love and more use pretty much, I can't really see why so many people hate on it, it's very underrared, but it can be a force to be reckoned with, specially if your team isn't prepared for it.
The problem with Abomasnow is the combination of a bad typing and a poor speed... Because those stats with a better typing like Slowking or Drapion would make MAbomasnow a huge threat... But well, i think that make Trick Room a nice asset for MAbomasnow (i guess that Cofragrigus and Reuniclus are the best options for MAbomasnow)... I dunno if sub is the best option for MAbomasnow being that slow... I'm using leech seed to give it it a little bit of recovery but i'm considering HP Fire to deal with Escavalier quickly...
Finally, i can't use the calculator now because i'm in my phone i would love to know if 56 ATK evs are enough to deal with 0 HP - 0 Def Delphox in the switch in using Earthquake? Also, how good it fares against Emboar with it? Can somebody help me?
The problem with Abomasnow is the combination of a bad typing and a poor speed... Because those stats with a better typing like Slowking or Drapion would make MAbomasnow a huge threat... But well, i think that make Trick Room a nice asset for MAbomasnow (i guess that Cofragrigus and Reuniclus are the best options for MAbomasnow)... I dunno if sub is the best option for MAbomasnow being that slow... I'm using leech seed to give it it a little bit of recovery but i'm considering HP Fire to deal with Escavalier quickly...
Finally, i can't use the calculator now because i'm in my phone i would love to know if 56 ATK evs are enough to deal with 0 HP - 0 Def Delphox in the switch in using Earthquake? Also, how good it fares against Emboar with it? Can somebody help me?
:3 thank you sooooo much... I'm realizing how important is for M Abomastow to have some hazards in the field... So, Froslass or a SR user SHOULD be there almost as mandatory since SR and one layer of spikes ensures the OHKO on Emboar with just 56 attack EVS... At least just Stealth rock ensures the OHKO to Delphox which is nice! I'm trying to figure out which SR could have some nice Synergy with M Abomasnow, since it does have SOOOOOO many weaknesses... U_U maybe Gligar?
:3 thank you sooooo much... I'm realizing how important is having some hazards in the field... So, Froslass or a SR user SHOULD be there almost as mandatory since SR and one layer of spikes ensures the OHKO on Emboar with just 56 attack EVS... At least just Stealth rock ensures the OHKO to Delphox which is nice! I'm trying to figure out which SR could have some nice Synergy with M Abomasnow, since it does have SOOOOOO many weaknesses... U_U maybe Gligar?
Rhyperior seems helpful, as it can take Fire-, Poison-, Flying-, and Rock-type attacks aimed at Mega Abomasnow, while Mega Abomasnow can help absorb Water- and Grass-type attacks for Rhyperior. Just know, though, that by doing this your team would be pretty slow, so you'd definitely want to consider some fast attackers/Trick Room support.
Actually Trick Room seems like a nice idea along with Reuniclus, Aromatisse or even Slowking (all of them have some common weaknesses but can help giving a nice resistance against Fighting types that can hit hard both MAbomasnow and Rhyperior)... I was using Aromatisse, and it was pretty nice, even considering the weak synergy between MAbo and Aroma...
It's just a weird feeling or Trick room is actually making a lot of noise in RU metagame?
I'm realizing that Combusken is actually a pretty nice baton passing poké... Since MAbomasnow is pretty usual, it can setup on it and then baton pass to a bunch of physical attackers... Until they start investing in MAbomasnow Attack to deal with it using EQ+Ice Shard xD
Sadly, besides doing super effective damage i think that isn't going to sweep on itself anytime soon... At least i guess that it can deal with Escavalier xD
This is as far as I've gotten thus far, still learning the RU meta and figuring out which are major threats still but its going well so far, Mega-Abomasnow to me is a little underwhelming at times, but it is very helpful with all the gligars around that seem to be everywhere, the biggest issue is there is a lot of threats to him in RU like Virizion, Cobalion, any fire type that is faster then it like Delphox and Magmortar and the the fight types like Hitmonlee, Emboar and friends, he has a tough life but he does alright, that Grass/Ice typing kinda hurts him with so many faster offensive threats, he doesn't even like facing Durant either
Abomasnow @ Abomasite
252 Spa 252 hp 4 spd
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
that is the set i'm currently using its alright but i could always use improvements XD.
Eh, considering how new I am to competitive play I'll take it. This also implies that my perspective is that of an inexperienced player, so take it as you will.
My initial plan was to try to fit Combusken and Xatu on a team together, but eventually figured out that my approach of filling up the rest of the team with bulky offense just couldn't really handle much of the typical RU threats.
Starting with Combusken, I decided on a fairly standard Baton Pass set:
Combusken @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Swords Dance
- Fire Punch
- Baton Pass
There are a variety of physical attackers that appreciate getting passed +2 Atk / +2 Spd, and even if it doesn't lead to a sweep, you can easily punch holes in you opponent's team early.
One of the arguments for going max speed on Combusken is you can use it as a revenge killer in late game (after a protect with +1 from Speed Boost you outspeed base 106's).
Note - you can pass to Escavalier for some extremely strong attacks, but don't expect it to outspeed much, even with speed boosts (after +3 from Speed Boost it can't outspeed base 70's).
The dominance of Froslass makes Xatu's Magic Bounce quite useful, however for me I found that Xatu was better off going with an offensive-focused set vs a defensive set just to take on Froslass.
One of the reasons I ran Xatu with an offensive set was to check Escavalier. Even with Modest Specs, you need a minimum of 224 SpA to guarantee an OHKO:
224+ SpA Choice Specs Xatu Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 344-408 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, Specs means Xatu is also an answer to Golbat:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Xatu Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 224-266 (63.2 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Specs, be wary what you Trick to - a Cress with Specs can still hit quite hard, as I found myself in the following situation:
4 SpA Choice Specs Cresselia Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Braviary: 145-172 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
For good measure, a replay with some Magic Bounce shenanigans:
One of the arguments for going max speed on Combusken is you can use it as a revenge killer in late game (after a protect with +1 from Speed Boost you outspeed base 106's).
There's no pokémon in RU with base 106's... and the only relevant poké with base 105 is Zoroark and that one is actually pretty well handled by Combusken just using a Boosted Fire Punch... Also, as you can see in my replays, is fairly easy to get the +2 speed, which is more than enough most of the time... Also, Combusken shouldn't be late cleaning, cuz it doesn't have nice moves to use besides maybe Thunder Punch, Sky Uppercut, Night Slash and Shadow Claw which gives nice Neutral coverage but poor super effective coverage, and Combusken WILL need to do super effective damage in the lategame without the chance to get a SD...
Some nice numbers for Combusken Speed are: 198: It can be done with or without a Boosting nature, 136 EVS and Jolly or 208 EVS and Adamant make this one. This beats Base 85 with a beneficial nature after the first boost. If Scarf Jolly Tyranitar troubles you, you can just use 4 more points to outspeed it at +2. IN this special case, just check this calculations:
252+ Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Combusken: 258-304 (79.6 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Combusken: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Combusken: 69-81 (21.2 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
+2 48+ Atk Combusken Sky Uppercut vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 320-378 (104.5 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Which means that if you want to use this spread, maybe Sky Uppercut will be more useful...
224: This is almost the max speed... 232 EVS and a Jolly nature are the only option here, and this helps to outspeed base 86+ Scarfers after two boosts (I'm Watching you Rotom C)... it may look like a nonsense, but at least this can let you boost in the switch in, use protect o get into +2 and then:
+2 24 Atk Combusken Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 272-324 (112.8 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Or at least you can try passing to another user that can spam a move with realtive ease, like Sharpedo Waterfall...
187: Which is the one that i use... It can be done with or without a beneficial nature... of course, unless you are just a moron, or you are investing in defenses, you should use a neutral speed nature and 164 EVS... This Spread gives you only 280 Speed after the first boost... which is enough to outspeed neutral base 90 with full investment just by one point, but more importantly, it helps you to get above Jolly Dugtrio at +2, which i think is more than enough for Combusken, considering is the faster unboosted poké in the tier... Also, using some investment in defenses can help you to do things like this:
252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 92+ Def Eviolite Combusken: 250-296 (77.1 - 91.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Which is actually not that bad for a NFE poké with those stats...
This is as far as I've gotten today, I'll be doing more laddering later on. And Mega Abomasnow has been shining with laddering, it's really not bad in the slightest it just need more love, and it needs a hell of a lot more usage. And if you pair it with a team that can patch up it's bad typing, it can be quite good.
So trying to build around all 3 on the same team was definitely a challenge. The team I ended up drafting somehow managed to go 11-1 today (up to a 1677 Glicko), but that's most likely due to the ladder rather than the real strength of the team. I'll post the sets I used. Prepare for a long post.
Pretty standard baton passing moves. 244 EVs and Jolly allowed me to outrun Zoroark and Mismagius at +1. The rest go into bulk, and give 319/160/160 defensive stats, which is actually the most efficient spread defensively, although I couldn't come up with great benchmarks for it. The EVs in addition to Eviolite makes this thing surprisingly bulky, and allows him to tank most non-SE hits. This thing has been the MVP of the team so far. There isn't that much that really troubles it, since it can just Baton Pass (or Protect then Baton Pass if needed) to a teammate who can handle what it's facing. If it can get off one Swords Dance, which it often does, I can usually pass to something that threatens the opposing team and beat them down to a near unwinnable situation. This might just be the ladder, but it's happened so often thus far that I think it's somewhat effective. Flare Blitz is also surprisingly strong (it outdamages Sharpedo's STABs on neutral targets). However, having to rely on Sky Uppercut and no other real coverage options means offensive sets aren't as effective imo.
This guy's single purpose is to prevent hazards. It has undergone some significant tweaks to better handle Rhyperior. Grass Knot and the SpA investment allow him to always OHKO with Grass Knot if he stays in. While the remaining EVs, which focus more on Defense than HP, will always tank 3 Rock Blast hits, so I'm not completely boned if he predicts the switch-in. The nature prevents Gligar from setting up rocks if I U-Turn to a counter. Night Shade allows consistent damage on everything, since Heat Wave and Psychic are completely blocked by Druddigon and Bronzong respectively. While the only time hazards have gone down is after this guy faints, I seem to always want an extra moveslot. The 4MSS on this thing is ridiculous. There have been so many times when I've wanted Heat Wave and Psychic, but I can't seem to find room to fit them in. Ironically, he's felt the worst of the guys I have, and I've often wondered whether something like Gligar, who also has U-Turn and can control hazards via Rocks and Defog, would be better.
Even though the Mega is better on 99% of teams, I find EBelt to be better at receiving boosts from Combusken. This is also reflected in the heavy physical focus of the moveset. Speed is to outspeed Modest Scarf Heliolisk at +2, which hasn't been all that hard to get with Combusken. I might change it to beat Modest Exploud, though, since I'm not a huge fan of guessing Heliolisk's nature. I've also been debating increasing the Special Attack, since although at +2 Ice Punch does more damage than Blizzard to just about everything, he has often found his way in via a direct switch, which means no boosts and more of a reason to use Blizzard. I'm also considering Lum Berry, as he could be BPed to with Scalds flying around, and a Burn really ruins his sweeping potential. He's been the other weak feeling team member along with Xatu, since although I love his coverage (Ice/Ground is strong), he doesn't often sweep as much as I would like him to. I might try using the Mega just for a wallbreaker, since it seems to be pretty strong.
Outside of these three, I've been testing Durant, Drapion, and Lanturn. Durant is Baton Pass + 3 Attacks, and has been fun since Baton Pass helps maintain momentum and can keep boosts if Combuskens passes to him. Drapion has a 5-minute set, but he still checks the Psychic-types that love to switch in on Combusken so well, and he might be the most common recipient of boosts. Lanturn is more insurance against things like Moltres and Yanmega, but he also has Volt Switch to maintain momentum. They all fill significant enough roles to warrant their spots, but I still feel like Gligar would work well somewhere. Also, I think priority would help in case I can't pass Speed, since I only really have Durant for something naturally fast, and I often have to take huge damage if something sets up/is Scarved.
EDIT: Don't want to necro this, but I did want to respond to the guy below me. Thanks for pointing out my Combusken set, I input an offensive Combusken first, then changed to the more bulky BP version, which meant I just dumped attack EVs into bulk, added Eviolite, and changed Sky Uppercut to BP and didn't look into other things like Speed EVs or Fire Punch. I did question Flare Blitz over Fire Punch, but the power difference was really noticeable that I'm kinda liking the little bit of self-sufficiency Flare Blitz has. Being able to stay in and do a nice chunk to whatever was in at the time helped more than I would have thought before. I'll look into Fire Punch though. The fact that a suboptimal set was my MVP shows how powerful the strategy was. The one issue I'm thinking about now is its competition with Gorebyss. With Combusken as strong as it was, I'd imagine Gorebyss is much more threatening.
I'm not so sure about your combusken, even being your MVP... My concern is, if you are using a bulky spread con Combusken... Why you should run Flare Blitz since it does compromise its bulk? It shouldn't be better using Fire Punch as a Reliable Fire STAB without recoil? Of course is absolutely weaker than Flare Blitz, but... Are you using Comb to sweep or to baton pass?
Also, outspeeding Zoroark and Mismagius at +2 shouldn't be a big deal since Combusken usually resists every single Zoroark move (since the most used moves on Zoro are Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Grass Knot and Flamethrower... And i think that Comb can handle the Knock off and then baton pass +2 atk and speed) and Mismagius should'n be troubling since it can't burn Comb and it doesn't hit that hard unless you give it chance to get a Nasty Plot before you get +2... So, i think that using less speed and more defense or special defense could be a better option!
