Unpopular opinions

CPU said:
Gastrodon is the main case I am thinking of but I'm sure there are others.
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I always love to see Sinnoh mons get their flowers, but this mon hasn't been OU since Gen 5.

This is exactly why the system works. Sure, you can try to run a gimmick to get the jump on some mons, especially something like Gastrodon, which has Storm Drain to give it an extra immunity.

But ultimately, gimmicks don't get to the 4.52% cutoff point unless they're good or popular enough. And if they do, they've earned their place.
 
Call me a boomer or whatever but honestly I think Tyranitar and Garchomp dropping out of OU was the final nail in the coffin for compmons for me after already having been kinda disaffected for years. I know I know powercreep happens, old titans have fallen out of favor before... but I dunno man, this really feels like a uniquely dark omen. I just can't look at Garchomp's page, see "UUBL" next to its picture and not think something has gone horribly wrong
 
Yung Dramps said:
Call me a boomer or whatever but honestly I think Tyranitar and Garchomp dropping out of OU was the final nail in the coffin for compmons for me after already having been kinda disaffected for years. I know I know powercreep happens, old titans have fallen out of favor before... but I dunno man, this really feels like a uniquely dark omen. I just can't look at Garchomp's page, see "UUBL" next to its picture and not think something has gone horribly wrong
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UUBL is basically OU.

Also frankly Tyranitar's been teetering on the edge ever since Pursuit died, that was its niche, all its got left is being the best sand setter and sand's not great with Tera. Honestly, after the buffs hail got, sand's probably the worst weather now. Especially with Tera since it's now an active detriment to your team. And Tyranitar doesn't really have another ability.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
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I always love to see Sinnoh mons get their flowers, but this mon hasn't been OU since Gen 5.

This is exactly why the system works. Sure, you can try to run a gimmick to get the jump on some mons, especially something like Gastrodon, which has Storm Drain to give it an extra immunity.

But ultimately, gimmicks don't get to the 4.52% cutoff point unless they're good or popular enough. And if they do, they've earned their place.
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It was close in Gen 8 for a little while because of Dracovish. I could have sworn it was OU at some point in the last few gens, but I did do some digging through Marty's old usage stats and it had the highest usage in OU compared to any other tier besides PU. If the usage cutoff was a little lower (I was remembering it at 3.41% or so which I think was its original value?) it could have been OU and been locked out of all the other lower tiers.

I'm also going to say I'm amused you wrote your post with a sense of finality as if tier positions don't shift subtly (and not-so-subtly) all the time throughout a generation. Just because a Pokémon doesn't make a specific tier cutoff at the end of a years-developed metagame doesn't mean they weren't within the cutoff at some point, and even if they drop, they usually still have some use courtesy of the merits that fit them into the tier in the first place (unless DLC happens and that Pokémon's niche just got eclipsed by a new addition or three).

But at this point i think I'm starting to argue about viability vs usage which is not a discussion I want to get into.
 
CPU said:
I'm also going to say I'm amused you wrote your post with a sense of finality as if tier positions don't shift subtly (and not-so-subtly) all the time throughout a generation.
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Ngl, I couldn't possibly be bothered to check the historic fluctuations to see whether or not Gastrodon was ever above the cutoff in the last 3 gens.

Which only reinforces my point. If things are viable enough to be used, they do, so they get moved up. If they're not, they don't, and so they fall. The fact this may or may not happen multiple times throughout a generation means it's working as intended.

But I digress...
CPU said:
But at this point i think I'm starting to argue about viability vs usage which is not a discussion I want to get into.
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Pretty much. Also, kind of not the place for this kind of discussion, I suppose.
 
Ttar dropping doesn't surprise me. It since Gen 6 has been super rigid for playstyle in practice, despite large movepool options
It got locked into weather setting since Gen 3, and despite the Sp Def buff in weather and bulk, but the slowspeed and quad weakness limits it long term. And that's ignoring slower weather setters or Cloud Nine

Hippowdon better
 
I think VGC is by far the better format after spending my entire childhood playing the games which are singles, fangame romhacks etc. and playing Smogon for thousands of hours before VGC.

And it's not just bc doubles, Smogon Doubles also is way worse imo, especially as a competitor in doubles

Mostly because Bring 6 Pick 4 is such a good format combined with Doubles to make for interesting matches especially in Bo3/5/etc.
 
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Dive Missile said:
i was willing to accept lando dropping due to his huge movepool nerfs plus powercreep but now he's top 5 usage and it frightens me. im convinced the only way to push lando out of the top of ou is to not put him in the game or just make effectively lando 2 thats better in every way.
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And they already kind of tried THAT if you look at how Great Tusk plays in current OU. While it is noticeably higher usage than Lando it still didn't push the latter out of Top 5, much less OU usage.

Volt-Ikazuchi said:
I blame Game Freak for being COWARDS and not giving Garchomp Dragon Dance (and High Horsepower so he can put the fear of Cynthia in VGC too) :changry:
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I am convinced someone at Gamefreak has it out for Garchomp, despite its popularity with the fanbase as a strong Pseudo and Cynthia's Ace, given how it seems to get stuff often that is "good" but almost civil-disobedience levels of "it's buffed, stop asking" with things like
  • Rough Skin HA (good defensive ability but on a no-Recovery mon not necessarily designed as a Tank)
  • The Mega (debatable due to undercutting its good-but-only-just Statline)
  • Scale Shot (a move clearly designed to have trade offs rather than a strict upgrade, even if okay in Singles for Garchomp)
Not to mention a bunch of stuff I, personally, wish it had but they won't give it. Most infamous is Dragon Dance (he's the only one of the three Material-providers that can't use the TM itself, and the only Physical attacker of the 3), I'd also take something like Extremespeed given its Jet Motif, or maybe some way to heal itself to synergize with Rough Skin?

It strikes me as a milder version of Regigigas where they know it has issues but adamantly refuse to change them (though that one is more lore than actual performance), and this despite Garchomp to my knowledge never being a VGC star (useful maybe but never like a mon Gamefreak would be concerned about like the Genies or certain Megas or Rillaboom).

At least give my Shark Shore-up or something. Or Sand Rush for a Psuedo alliance
 
I don't think monotype trainers are inherently easier than trainers without a type specialisation in casual play. If you play on Switch mode (or, in SV, if you don't actively rebel against it being forced on you) then trainers with a diverse roster are at least as easy as type specialists, because you can just pivot into your strongest matchup for free every time you score a KO. A duotype team made with the same design sensibilities Game Freak uses for its monotype teams could end up being even easier to handle, because your primary counter for each type has half as many threats to handle.

The fact that most specialists are pushovers is a consequence of limited AI, overly conservative roster+moveset choices, and the unrivalled power of setup/snowball tactics. Theoretically, monotype teams can present a unique threat, making use of stacked synergies and surprise move choices to break through your one or two conventional checks and put you on the back foot, but the games are too eager to reward the player for basic knowledge of type matchups, so having one Pokemon with SE STAB is almost always enough.

Ultimately, I think one of the big problems with difficulty in Pokemon is that the games don't do enough to make losing feel like a routine part of gameplay. The games are easy, so we expect to win every battle, which means the games can never get noticeably more challenging without making the player feel like a failure if they end up struggling.

A related problem is that there isn't actually very much in-battle strategising in single-player Pokemon, so if you ever do find yourself backed into a corner, there's rarely an opportunity to pivot strategies or mount a comeback outside of heal spam or a game-warping mechanic like Dynamax or affection procs. If the player is caught by surprise (say, because a monotype team had an effective answer for their supposed counter), the eventual loss feels both inevitable and slightly unfair ("how was I supposed to know??"). If Game Freak ever did try and design a truly challenging Pokemon campaign, I think they'd either have to ramp up how much info you could glean about each significant trainer before battling them or they'd have to thoroughly normalise 'losing and trying again' as a pathway to success.
 
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Having to switch to a counter because the opponent put in a Pokémon sufficiently disadvantageous to fight against is a very effective way to discourage snowballing tactics, so there's that at least. If the AI had actual strategic capacity capable of, for example, proactively switching in counters to the current Pokémon out (I.E. the current mon is incapable of a OHKO, but another mon on the team is, so the AI switches to that mon), that'd be another avenue...but the official games are ultimately allergic to difficulty beyond EVs and coverage moves.

Regardless, I would very much strongly disagree with the idea of a diverse team not inherently being more challenging than a monotype team. It is not necessarily going to be the case that the player will have a variety of mons capable of cleanly KOing a diverse range of types (especially typings that only have 1-2 weaknesses), and it is much easier to have a single strong mon sweep a monotype gym than train a full team well enough to counter mons that may very well have SE coverage of their own (I.E. Water types with Ice and Ground moves to counter Grass and Electric types). There is room for monotype teams to be more difficult, such as the described scenario of being stacked enough to power through intended counters, but those would be exceptions, not norms.
 
LonelyGaruga said:
Regardless, I would very much strongly disagree with the idea of a diverse team not inherently being more challenging than a monotype team. It is not necessarily going to be the case that the player will have a variety of mons capable of cleanly KOing a diverse range of types (especially typings that only have 1-2 weaknesses), and it is much easier to have a single strong mon sweep a monotype gym than train a full team well enough to counter mons that may very well have SE coverage of their own (I.E. Water types with Ice and Ground moves to counter Grass and Electric types). There is room for monotype teams to be more difficult, such as the described scenario of being stacked enough to power through intended counters, but those would be exceptions, not norms.
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Clearly it depends on the specialist type and whatever specific Pokemon is chosen to counter that type (hence, not "inherently" easier). If you're imagining a scenario where the specialist type has too many weaknesses to cover with secondary types and the player's offensively-inclined Pokemon can outspeed and OHKO every opponent with super-effective STAB, then the equivalent diverse team is presumably one where the player can still outrun and OHKO all the Pokemon they do have coverage for (half? two-thirds?) while 2HKOing the rest. Still not a very tough battle!

Where a monotype team can shine is in any scenario besides that one. The specialist trainer could be making use of one of those types you mentioned with only 1-2 weaknesses, perhaps with secondary types or Abilities that neutralise those weaknesses or turn them into immunities. The "single strong Pokemon" the player is using to counter the specialist type might not be quite strong or fast enough to take out its targets without being severely weakened or KOed by moves specifically selected to handle the type's most obvious weaknesses (like those Water-types you mentioned with Ice and Ground moves). If a trainer doesn't have a Pokemon that counters every type, as you propose, then I imagine they'll be especially unlikely to sweep a trainer who specialises in one of the types they haven't accounted for.

A concession I'm happy to make is that it's very hard for a type specialist Champion to be as strong as a Champ with a diverse roster unless their specialist type is very generically strong (basically one of Water/Fairy/Dragon/Steel), because there usually aren't enough Pokemon of each type in a regional Pokedex to avoid having one or two duds (of course, if you knew you were making a specialist Champion, it'd probably behoove you to include enough strong mons of their type to make them a proper threat). Gym Leaders generally don't have this problem because of smaller rosters and a lower power level overall, while postgame trainers tend to have access to more strong mons to fill out the team slots.
 
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To me, it makes sense flavor-wise as Leaders are type specialists and also supposed to test trainers.

Making them generalists won't solve the problem. Geeta's Champion battle is straight up sad.

People are out here asking to get Monkey Paw'd. :mehowth:

I'm going to ignore the boss designs of this franchise jumping off a cliff, and accept the timeline where they massively improve overnight and are able to deliver on thematic teams like

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Does that mean you wanna go through a Stall Gym? :trode:

I know y'all just thinking about some gimmicky HO offenses, but y'all forgot Koga and Karen trying to make you break the controller on Stadium 2. We know they'd do it. Again.

Either that, or realistically, we getting sorry ass battles like Champion VeGeeta as the norm, which doesn't fix anything really.


The difficulty issue is real, but what the bosses in this franchise lack is an identity.

I'll always point out Emerald Liza and Tate for pulling up with Xatu, Claydol, Solrock and Lunatone and giving people a Top 2 Mainline Leader battle.

The reason why these bosses suck is because they got no bag. Monotype teams are fine, but you gotta cook. They gotta be built around a theme, a strategy. A bunch of same type mons with a weak TM on all of them is barely cohesive narrative-wise.
 
Cobalt Empoleon said:
Clearly it depends on the specialist type and whatever specific Pokemon is chosen to counter that type (hence, not "inherently" easier). If you're imagining a scenario where the specialist type has too many weaknesses to cover with secondary types and the player's offensively-inclined Pokemon can outspeed and OHKO every opponent with super-effective STAB, then the equivalent diverse team is presumably one where the player can still outrun and OHKO all the Pokemon they do have coverage for (half? two-thirds?) while 2HKOing the rest. Still not a very tough battle!
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I honestly don't see the equivalency here when there is a very real possibility of not being able to outpace the entire team and getting 2HKO'd by coverage for every instance the opponent is the faster one. It is much more realistic for a single Pokémon to sweep a monotype team simply by being easier to raise one strong Pokémon compared to a whole team that must be reasonably leveled to take out something that, while weak to their STAB, packs SE coverage. Snowballing is more effective, item spam is more effective, just spamming STAB until everything is KO'd is more effective.

This isn't getting into more complicated strategies like Prankster Reflect/Light Screen changing what would otherwise have been winning matchups into losing ones that can grow more complicated from there, or cheap tricks like Metal Burst, or dangerous buffs like Dragon Dance.

Where a monotype team can shine is in any scenario besides that one. The specialist trainer could be making use of one of those types you mentioned with only 1-2 weaknesses, perhaps with secondary types or Abilities that neutralise those weaknesses or turn them into immunities. The "single strong Pokemon" the player is using to counter the specialist type might not be quite strong or fast enough to take out its targets without being severely weakened or KOed by moves specifically selected to handle the type's most obvious weaknesses (like those Water-types you mentioned with Ice and Ground moves). If a trainer doesn't have a Pokemon that counters every type, as you propose, then I imagine they'll be especially unlikely to sweep a trainer who specialises in one of the types they haven't accounted for.
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So you make players use a second Pokémon to deal with the 1-2 members of the monotype team that the main counter doesn't have a STAB advantage against? Assuming the main counter couldn't have just snowballed off the first opponent with a buffing move or something.

Like, let's use a team of Water, Water/Flying, Water/Grass, Water/Ground, and Water/Ice. Between two mons with either SE STAB or SE coverage while not being weak to the types they're handling, you're fine. That is a big difference from needing 5-6 different mons to have sufficient coverage, and all of them needing to be able to stand against SE coverage themselves. Alternatively, a mon neutral/resistant to the lead's moves could buff once-twice and sweep with a neutral STAB, again facing opposition from maybe one team member. That is a much less realistic scenario for a team with a larger variety of type coverage and resistances/immunities, where you'll be unlikely to singlehandedly punch through with a single buffed STAB, and the more feasible solution is having several members involved instead of just one.

I mean at the end of the day, it just sounds like a good monotype team just requires two members to fully counter instead of one. With a diverse enough range of weaknesses, you might as well just treat them as if they were a fully diverse team and just have the different team members target the non-overlapping weaknesses as needed.
 
Sonikku A said:
The Stadium example is funnier cuz
-Stadium's AI bluntly "cheats" compared to mainline. They will anticipate switches aggressively. Speedrunners legit need way more luck there than mainline if doing a Rental handicap run. Which can last over 20 hours
-Stadium teams aren't mono
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The AI doesn't cheat in Stadium. I just asked Werster on his livestream (where he's speedrunning Stadium lol) and he confirmed it doesn't. It has the usual Pokemon AI trait where it knows your Pokemon's stats and therefore how much damage all its moves will deal, but I assume we're not counting that because I never hear people complain about it in the mainline games and it's just the easiest way for the AI to function like a human player with good mechanical knowledge.
 
I don't think making the ai cheat is that bad on princible tbh. The ai will always be at a disavantage because its just an ai, it cannot understand the nuance of the opponents team and its own moves unless youre insane at coding and can waste days on each battle.

i mean, look at rby. the ai cheats, but its not like it made the battles that harder or anything (the jank of gen 1 does that for you tbh LOOOL). if anything, letting your ai know the players move 50% of the time would be great at giving them some edge and make them less exploitable. its not like the main series has insane teams that would crush you if they knew what your move was like some romhacks do
 
Cobalt Empoleon said:
The AI doesn't cheat in Stadium. I just asked Werster on his livestream (where he's speedrunning Stadium lol) and he confirmed it doesn't. It has the usual Pokemon AI trait where it knows your Pokemon's stats and therefore how much damage all its moves will deal, but I assume we're not counting that because I never hear people complain about it in the mainline games and it's just the easiest way for the AI to function like a human player with good mechanical knowledge.
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I put it in quotes for a reason :V

But yeah, it's aggressive due to knowing what you have mainly. Which incidentally can mean it IS predictable if you fully know what's going on
Problem is rental moves/mons suck, and the 3 of 6 format randomizes mons chosen, so player variance compared to the opponent can massively affect the flow. Main games the teams and general order are always the same, so it's way easier to plan around

Honestly, GF should experiement with randomized teams as well to piss off runners :P
 
Monotype is dumb and lame as fuck

Most of the best fights in the series are when the opponent team actually has a variety and feels like an actual trainer at your level.

(Cynthia, Lusamine, Red, Ghetsis, etc.)

even when they aren't that hard, it feels more like you are beating someone who, narratively, is actually at your level rather than just mandated to a type

gym leaders feel like minibosses in every gen. yes, every gen. all of them are easy, even shit like Sinnoh gyms are not far off from Kalos, it's all super easy

alolan totems clear
 
Sonikku A said:
The Stadium example is funnier cuz
-Stadium's AI bluntly "cheats" compared to mainline. They will anticipate switches aggressively. Speedrunners legit need way more luck there than mainline if doing a Rental handicap run. Which can last over 20 hours
-Stadium teams aren't mono
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:mehowth:

It still works because the point made is about the sets themselves.

Also, Stadium AI doesn't predict your switches and the like, it just has... Good AI.

I was playing challenge cup on St2 the other day and the AI switched out its lead on turn 1. I had legit forgotten you could switch mid-battle, so I was like :trode:

These games are giving me brain rot :totodiLUL:


Sonikku A said:
Honestly, GF should experiement with randomized teams as well to piss off runners :P
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Challenge cup sets are randomized. The trainers have a theme restriction, but you legit don't know what the actual team will be.

CPU said:
Justy from Orre would like to know your location

:wo:
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That's still just one battle. Now imagine like 6, 7 and a puzzle :totodiLUL:
 
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