Discussed this in Smogtours Discord, figured i'd make the point here as well. With Monotype making such a strong, passionate case for their inclusion (and the discussion around 3rd OU's benefits, as well as those of VGC [unlikely but would be sick tbh]), I find it unfair to immediately guarantee Ubers a slot. I think that the case must still be made for all 3 of Ubers / OU3 / Monotype, from which we can decide upon the 2 to include here.
It's rather unfair that for most of my tenure on this site my main tier has had to fight again and again to prove that it's worthy of official tournament inclusion. I understand that in the past it's been an easy target for various reasons, but the fact of the matter is that the issues that have kept Ubers out of tournaments on-and-off over the past six years are simply not relevant anymore. Is the tier perfect now? No (what SS tier is?), but I and the rest of the tiering council have taken and are actively taking steps to better Ubers so it's as balanced and enjoyable as it can be by the time SCL rolls around. Ubers is in a better place than it has been in years, and it shouldn't
have to be the case that Ubers
still has to make the case for itself, but fine. If you want a strong, impassioned argument for the inclusion of Ubers, you're getting one.
- "The community is vibrant and active": Perhaps this is true, I can't speak to that.
Your dismissive tone is worrisome. I've seen many people (most of them, like yourself, outsiders to Ubers) put the tier down over the years based on unfounded assumptions about it and its community. The claim here that Ubers maybe isn't active is one such random assumption. There's no "perhaps" about it—Ubers's community is not only vibrant and active, it's growing. Our discord has 1.6k members and plenty more join every day. This year alone, we've had over 260,000 messages in public and private channels. We're killing it on the PS! side of things, too; our room consistently ranks in the top 5 highest user counts online as relative to other rooms representing official tiers, and since New Year's we've had over 128,000 messages in the room from just each month's top 20 users alone. What about the ladder? Last month alone we had 145,283 Generation 8 Ubers battles played. Compare that to Ubers's former rival for official tournament inclusion, PU, which had 63,478. The number of April's
Generation 7 Ubers battles alone was greater than that, at 68,785. What about interest in Ubers tournaments? It's also grown significantly. Our ongoing Ubers Premier League (keep up with this week
here!), despite the signups thread being open less than a week,
smashed last year's record number for signups, netting a bit less than
half the signups
the entirety of SPL had over
three and a half weeks.
Ubers Ladder Tournament, which I'm currently hosting, has had 175 signups over its two cycles; compare that to last year's 122. Perhaps most staggeringly,
Ubers Winter Seasonal VI had very nearly
twice the number of signups
Ubers Summer Seasonal V, held 5 months earlier, had. Regardless of how you measure it, Ubers has one of the biggest and most active player bases of any official tier, and that's not something you can just dismiss.
As you acknowledge, though, Monotype's community absolutely meets those criteria, seemingly exceeding Ubers' activity and having a fine reputation.
The thing is, though, there's no reason this has to be an Ubers vs. Monotype situation. Hogg doesn't frame it that way in the OP, and there's very little basis for comparison between the tiers. Ubers absolutely outstrips plenty of other lower tiers when it comes to certain criteria for activity, just as other lower tiers outstrip it in certain ways. Why exclude Ubers instead of other lower tiers that are less active than it in some ways? Moreover, if playerbase activity and interest were the only factors worth consideration, why not just make the tournament all Generation 8 OU? It's Smogon's most popular format by design, and it certainly has a more active playerbase than anything else. Clearly there's more at stake here. The criteria for Ubers's inclusion shouldn't be whether it has a less active playerbase than
Monotype (which, I hate to break it to you, pretty much every other lower tier also does), but whether Ubers has a comparably-sized playerbase to the other lower tiers that have been granted inclusion. And it does.
- "Ubers has a long and storied history within Smogon and has been a part of its major tournament scene for over a decade":
Perhaps my opinion on this topic is different than others', especially given my brief period of relevant experience on this site. However, I don't think this is a particularly strong justification for its inclusion. SCL is supposed to be our new tour, why do we need to add a meta that was considered cool in 2010-2013? This was 2 or even 3 gens ago. DPP and BW (maybe oras? idk?) Ubers have storied histories, but how does that necessarily imply that SS Ubers will lead to the same high level of gameplay? Additionally, with other communities vying passionately for this slot, I think inclusion should be based on the current state of the community and tier. An argument grounded in historical prestige holds little weight in my eyes, and I'm curious to hear what others think about this.
Where on earth are you pulling this from? By what metric are you determining that Ubers was only "cool in 2010-2013?" You do realize it's been in
plenty of official tournaments since then, right? The argument isn't so much that Ubers deserves to be in because it's one of Smogon's oldest official metagames and one of its first to see official tournament representation, but rather that its inclusion in trophy-bearing tournaments has a long precedent. I actually agree with you that the current state of the tier and community matters more than this precedent, and I've hopefully adequately addressed why the tier and community are in a great place right now. But you can't just cast that precedent to the wind, either. There's a history of Ubers
working in tournaments; there have been plenty of officials in the past that Ubers has been a positive addition to, and that's the most logical reason that its prior inclusion means it should receive preferential treatment over an unknown variable like Monotype if it
really has to come down to an either-or situation between the two (and, again, it doesn't). And don't get me wrong—due to the actions of a few bad actors long since cast out of the community, there's certainly a perception that Ubers hasn't worked in some official tournaments. I can't not address that. But there hasn't been a cheating scandal in Ubers in years, and with the former head TD as our tier leader it's unlikely there'll be one for the foreseeable future. Don't bash Ubers because it doesn't fit into your arbitrary (and inaccurate) vision of SCL as some shiny new tour that can cast out established metagames as it pleases; this isn't meant to be a brand new thing, but rather a sister tournament to SPL. And don't forget Ubers certainly had
a very long history in SPL.
- "Fewer siloed tiers":
This supposed issue, which was used to make the case for 3 OU instead of Monotype, is much more severe for the Ubers community than for Monotype. There seem to be many people that regularly participate in and build for Monotype who have also found success in OU and lower tiers, as
Lilburr outlines in her post. Ubers is known for Garay Oak, Pohjis, and TonyFlygon; they can obviously speak far more accurately than me on this matter, but I'm not under the impression that the former 2 build this year-round? Even if they all do, though, this stacked trio doesnt seem necessarily superior to the larger number of crossover Mono players. (Also, I'm not convinced it's that relevant of an argument anyways? As
Vulpix03 says, it's fine to kick ass in only your one tier like Ajna in RU, Serene and LilyAC in LC, and a number of other examples).
Your point that this argument isn't super relevant is true, but your perception that there aren't more than 3 Ubers players who play other tiers is deeply wrong. Just looking at tournaments since the start of 2020, in addition to the three names you've listed, we've had Ubers mainers KyogreF4N, 64 Squares, Mysterious M, byronthewellwell, TrueNora, March Fires, Reje, Leru, and Ismakhil playing or managing in WCoP, in 2020 and 2021 you've seen myself, zf, Zesty43, and plenty of the aforementioned names in SPL, spanishlines winning last year's PU Open, etc. And that's not including the players from other tiers that have taken an interest in Ubers; in this UPL alone, we have TJ, Gondra, Bushtush, Eternal Spirit, Silksong, Punny, Lunala, Star, Void, and plenty others known primarily for accomplishments in other tiers competing. There's plenty of overlap between knowledge of Ubers and other tiers, many of which will be in SCL—the notion that the Ubers playerbase is out of touch with other tiers in tournaments is deeply wrong.
As a side note, the example of Ajna kicking ass in "only one tier" is amusing. He kicked plenty of ass in SS OU on my SPL team this year, dude.
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To sum it up, I think there's strong justification that Ubers should be included by default in SCL. Ubers has a lot of positives, and if there are any arguments used against Monotype that also apply to Ubers they were never explained or elaborated upon in any way in the quoted post. Many of Ubers's strengths outweigh or are equivalent to the standing of other lower tiers in the same categories.
I think we should keep this thread on topic and only talk about whether it's better to include Monotype or a 3rd SS OU slot in this tournament, and guarantee Ubers a spot.