Resource SV Doubles OU Viability Rankings

[Schister]

T4 -> T3
Incredible bulk and ease of hazards has cemented it as a staple on various priority spam teams of late, including one worm sample team. Vessel of Ruin gets great value into tailwind structures that often rely on special attackers such as gholdengo and landorus to do their dirty work, slowing their roll down and setting up hazards to control the pace of the battle and clean up games with ease. Has tools such as sand tomb, snarl and whirlwind to toy with a variety of pokemon that may attempt to set up on it or blow past it and can do acceptable damage with a few of its tools and a decent attack stat. Ignoring this one in builder has become increasingly punishing as of late.

 

[SuckyLucky]

GOD I LOVE TING LU BRING HIM BACK TO DOU

 

[Schister]

T2 -> T3.

Too reliant on tailwind to be effective for it to sit as a tier 2 mon right now imo. Recent meta shifts such as snow seeing drastic usage cuts and ting lu and a fair bit more sun teams rising hurt it in my eyes. It just really lacks the variety and isn't as threatening to as much of the metagame as it has been in the past, rarely opting to run choice items and almost exclusively being run on tailwind balance cores which while great don't represent the whole metagame. Other fringe developments such as sweeper Volcarona and clanger kommo seeing more usage also give me reason to question its role as the premier setup threat in the tier, as it typically loses to both of these as well as other common setup threats such as kingambit and Calm Mind bolt. By no means bad but not quite as ubiquitous as its peers and even has competition on the archetype it dominates with Landorus and Blood Moon as the main special attacking threat.

T5 -> T4
Underrated and largely unaccounted for by many teams right now. Can afford to run adamant due to a lack of many faster threats aside from pao, a pokemon that has limited field presence and can't proactively keep basc off the field without risking itself on many boards. Adamant Basc-f picks up many Kos similar to its male counterpart, reaching 311 attack where basc male would reach 323 with jolly. Definitely better than the other pokemon in tier 5 and deserves more respect.

 

[Alisyem]

Where is Ceruledge on the tier list....

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

Quick noms cause I was thinking of SV

T2 -> T1
We all know what these mons do so I'm not gonna go into detail, but this is moreso because I don't think Ogerpon-W as the lone T1 is accurate in the current meta. I think these 4 + Ogerpon-W separates itself enough from the other powerful, yet a little more team-specific, T2 mons like Chien-Pao, Glimmora, and Archaludon to warrant the change in VR. Although tbh I think these 5 are closer in power level to the T2 mons to be like T1.5 or something lol

Landorus might be the most contentious one here but it's the Pokemon I think about the most when building a new team.

T3 -> T2
Cudgel bonk. In OSDT playoffs, we saw Ogerpon-H gaining more traction especially in the later rounds. A big reason for that is how good it is at trading. It's easy to get into position and can instantly do massive damage with Tera that can swing momentum back to your side. On top of that, it has a flexible 3rd slot that can either provide some utility with Follow Me, be a wincon with SD, or an attack like HHP or U-turn.

T4 -> T3
I think this has taken the place of P2 on the balance-semiroom teams. It doesn't have the same staying power, but it balances that with consistent spread damage (which, although it doesn't do a ton of damage, is still enough that it adds up) and a much better ability that tend to benefit those type of teams.

T5 -> T4
There's like 3 relevant Fairy-types and they're all pretty team specific. The Steels (Gholdengo and Kingambit) don't really want to switch in to a Dragon Energy either. It's super good at forcing early Tera's, which simplifies the game a lot especially for the offensive-oriented teams that Regidrago typically finds itself in. I honestly think it's a T3 mon but I'll nom T4 for now.

Low tier cleanse:
-> UR
Just use Iron Crown if you want to psyspam

-> UR
Who? Combined 2 usage in OSDT playoffs between these mons

 

[Frixel]

-> T1
In conjunction with Waterpon, these pokemon rule the tier, with Landorus-I being the more centralizing while Waterpon is the more versatile. Nukes Fires and Grass-types (water too because they are either volcanion or Waterpon), with FWG being a good and often used core. Additionally, it also does well vs Steel-types and not wants to take a hit from either Earth-Power or Sludge Bomb. Last move is either Substitue or Sandsear Storm and it forces you to play around both until it's revealed (you don't want to let it get a sub off, but it may also circunvent your follow me with sandsear).


-> T1.5
I don't think these are as close to the Top 2, but they are definitely not Tier 2 as well.
and follow their SS legacy, while is the premiere Tailwind setter with an incredible spread move in Bleakwind Storm. Moreover, it can run any given weather to round team's weaknesses, Taunt, Icy Wind,....


-> T3
I think this Pokemon is really bad, it's not hard to fit weather / encore / phazers in any given team, completely neglecting it's presence. 8.33% usage with 33.3% usage in OSDT playoffs doesn't help this case. Rain requires most of the team to be built around it (aka if it goes down = game goes down). I completely agree with SMB's post, building around it is not ideal as it is easily countered (main one being in the builder, which isn't even that hard -> ting lu, Landorus-I, Gholdengo, Sacred Sword forces the tera, Encore, Weather Tornadus, literally any special attacker, ...)


-> T2
Echoing dad1, this is really good. Can redirect, can setup, can encore, can have priority, Tera Ivy Cudgel is bonkers. The only real downside to it is competing with . Used 30 times and won 70% of those games!


-> T3
Same as the post above, priority blocking is really good, it can even fit on non-tr teams and act has an answer to it.


->T3
Based? Maybe, but both are great and should be used way more.
155/125/80 bulk, an ability that lowers SpA and 110 base Attack? The only things that really stop this Pokemon are , and , otherwise it will stay in the field forever. Aditionally, it has Stealth Rock, Stomping Tantrum and Whirlwind (this move is SO good in the current meta, it's so useful defensively while disrupting the opponent's offensive positioning // this pokemon literally neglects by simply existing).
literally has 3 weaknesses: ground (which dies to +1 heat crash // Landorus-I doesn't appreciate either of the teammates listed below, I think this also runs tera grass), Dragon (which does not want to take Breaking Swipe or deal with Tera Fairy) and Rock (I had to think a bit before reminding of the 1/2 rock moves in the tier). 105/121/93 bulk, 115 Atk and while 91 Spe isn't the best, does the job and grants it a very good speed tier. Both sets are good, with Howl being the better one: , , , among others, are great partners and great Pokemon to be Howled. I think both these archetypes are underexplored and underused right now.


->T3
Another unexplored archetype.


-> T4
Same as the post above


-> T4/4.5
In the current meta, there is no space for Amoonguss. Another pokemon that is easily accounted for in the builder, has a hard time being threatening with the inumerous Grass-types, Tornadus, Fire-Types and other users fulfilling the redirection role to a much better degree. 7.64% usage with 27.27% winrate, I'm sorry arctic.


+ Evasion abilities -> Ban

 

[bananaszn]

yung potassium spits game at 2 am

-> T1

With it being on the more frail side and not having the 110+ speed benchmark i could see why its t2 but it is literally THE mon of dou right now and most likely going forward unless something crazy comes up; theres no reason why its t2 because everyone who knows the tier respect its presence on every team and during every game

-> T1.5

Incineroar is incineroar lets not play crazy but i think it deserves more respect than just t2 because it can literally do everything a battle needs in damage with flare blitz and knock and support with intimidate, fake out, parting shot (or u-turn), and knock removing crucial items like landorus', and ursaluna's life orb, rilla's av, berries, clear amulets, weak policies, dragonite's cb etc.

Rillaboom is a more interesting case for me because it does the same thing as incineroar minus the super extensive support. What makes it most interesting to me is the fact it gives leftovers to grounded mons which obviously is a double headed spear but most mons that take advantage of it on the allying side are boost sweepers and has made an entire move in earthquake "bad" unless theres specific counterplay to rilla that allows grassy terrain to be removed (i.e ice spinner, psyterrain because the others are basically inaccesible without causing a self disadvantage, and other mons that beat rilla). The reasoning for me basically though is: heals most mons, does respectable amounts of damage, can use fake out, and can position well using u-turn and just the sheer intimidation of it clicking one of its strong ass moves

Tornadus is the only real tw setter right now and the other moves it has in icy wind which is really just a damaging tailwind, taunt disrupting setup and supportive mons (that arent gholdengo), and other tornadus as long as you win the tie, all weathers (even though it only seriously runs two) most notably disrupting alolan-ninetales, and lastly bleakwind which can add up damage over the course of the game and get good bursts on mons that are particularly weak to it

Glimmora is a bit of a harder case to justify due to it lacking the ability to stick around but its early game presence is an extreme force to be reckoned with because it can set rocks relatively fast and rocks are good into just about the entire metagame AND theres not that many ways to remove them unless theres another glimm clicking mortal spin. Which brings me to my next point in mortal spin, being able to regular poison both pokemon is a phenomenal trait while also getting rid of hazards should they be a factor. Next is it's ability which scares physical attackers into switching out or attacking your other slot allowing a rocks or mortal spin opportunity. Finally, the meteor beam set is a great way to gain early momentum because it can ohko mons like landorus, chien pao (that arent sash), chi-yu, tornadus (that also arent sash), incineroar, etc.

-> T3

Ting-Lu has a similar application that glimmora has but their offensive power and staying power are switched. 155/125/80 with an ability that lowers special attack (ik i just repeated what frixel said but how else do you word it) is insane, the only two things that holds it back is it's typing which makes it weak to rilla, ogerpon, hands, and pao and it also has no immediate recovery. Besides all of those flaws it has a nice list of pros: the big ones being the aforementioned ability and bulk, great support moves in rocks (and spikes but flying types are all over the tier), whirlwind, snarl, taunt (even though its goob slow), rock tomb if the team isnt comfortable running torn, and mud slap for epic trolling

re: frixels post. i personally have nary a fucking clue onto how to put goug on a team and use it effectively but i do believe its good from what ive seen

-> T3

like frixel said its unexplored and ive noticed it popping up more and more throughout the course of derb while also being a genuine thought that people give when building

-> T4

Amoonguss is outclassed at redirection by ogerpon, sinistcha and indeedee, gets exploded by the fire types, tornadus, like frixel said its easily accountable for in the builder, gholdengo, and gets stopped dead in its tracks by grass types

Honestly I cant really make a meaningful argument as to why lando-t should go to t4 but im sure someone feels the same way and can/will/has

-> T4

re: dad1 post

-> T5

i forgor. This may just be me being a hater and/or ignorant to it but what meaningful things does this do

and evasion abilities -> ban

not a debate

 

[Lemurro]

3 -> 4
Unless someone is kind enough to proc your weakness policy for you Diamond Storm does no damage but has to be clicked until you get enough Defense Boosts for Body Press to be useful. Requires tera in order to avoid getting one shot by a third of the Metagame and needs Trick Room up to be a threat. It can get around these weaknesses with Howl/Coaching/Another TR setter but other Pokemon such as Kingambit, Ting Lu, and both Ursaluna forms offer a far better return on investment. This is backed up by the fact it had a 7% usage rate in OSDT playoffs and a 30% winrate.

Outclassed as a Ground-type attacker by Lando-I and both Ursalunas, outclassed as an Intimidate Pivot by Incineroar, and outclassed as a Bulky Rocker by Glimmora and Ting Lu. It's the only Pokemon with all these qualities but that niche isn't very useful in the current metagame.
4 -> 5
All these Pokemon are outclassed in the current metagame and are only used by a few teams that need a hyper-specific niche filled. This is shown by the fact they are all under 3% usage in OSDT playoffs, and DUU* by usage. To me these are the characteristics of Tier 5 Pokemon.

*Except Tyranitar which I attribute to ladder's tendency to overuse weather. Torkoal, Pelipper, and Ninetales Alola were all top 20 in usage last month, whilst Tyranitar sits at 30.

 

[Schister]

UR -> T5
Will update with replays later. Has been showing up as a redirectors on certain teams that appreciate its non-weakness to bleakwind storm such as hearthflame or volcarona cores. Great utility options such as thunder wave life dew encore and anti-trick room options such as after you and its low speed to help it stand out.

 

[Actuarily]

Since there’s been a decent number of nominations and meta development since the last time, we’re looking to update the viability rankings here shortly! Consider this a last call for nominations, we’ll put the slate together after the weekend.

 

[GenOne]

4 -> 3

Deserves to be at least as high as Ninetales-Alola and Baxcalibur which are both Tier 3 right now.

I was recently studying all of the SV DOU teams that have been winning** in Derby so far and the vast majority of teams have been stacking at least 3 Pokemon weak to Ice-type attacks (factoring in Ogerpon-Wellspring's 4x weakness to Freeze Dry), if not 4 Ice-weak Pokemon in some cases. The reality is that Kyurem simply trades well into a number of top tier mons right now, including but not limited to Ogerpon-Wellspring, Landorus, Raging Bolt, Rillaboom and Tornadus.

Snow is also just a strong weather archetype right now, with four snow teams to-date** scoring wins in Derby and with snow having good matchups into other weather teams (besides ESM's sand psyspam) that in most cases rely on Prankster tornadus to set rain or sun. I don't think I need to tell anybody that AV Kyurem has good overall stats and is especially bulky when supported by snow and Aurora Veil.

And finally, when compared to Baxcalibur (currently Tier 3), I think Kyurem is on the same level even if the two Ice/Dragons fill slightly different roles. Whatever doesn't fall to super-effective Ice hits (as mentioned above) still has to trade into a bulky Kyurem that has access to great coverage moves like Earth Power and Flash Cannon; Kyurem is just one of those mons that can hit everything for at least neutral coverage which makes it very flexible in this metagame.

**Analysis was for Weeks 1-4; I didn't count any Week 5 games yet since the week hasn't finished yet

 

[bagel]

3->4

So much hail/ogerpon/regidrago which really owns support sets cause burning tera on a support lando sucks, while scarf really struggles to be threatening offensively. As Lemurro said its basically outclassed by something in all of its niches and its generally not worth running it over the competition for its role compression alone.

 

[|Powerman|]

Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Usable in a lot of teams thanks to it not only being a nuke with tera, but also a genuinely good attack-minded support pokemon. I feel like its ability Mold Breaker isn't talked enough about when regarding it. Mold Breaker allows its support moves such as Taunt and Encore hit past otherwise annoying abilities such as Magic Bounce. Its unique typing allows it to be a Fire type that isn't troubled like other mons such as Incineroar and Chi-Yu by the presence of strong water attacks and a Grass type that can OHKO Rillaboom.

 

[eragon]

Preface: What follows is entirely my own opinion and I understand it will likely not be widely held really, I just personally feel the Tier 1-5 system is generally inadequate and too simplistic for representing the nature of the viability of the various mons in this metagame.

I've always felt this way, particularly when Flutter was legal and clearly superior to every other Pokemon in the format, even the other tier 1 mons, but I especially feel this system does not hold up well currently. There is far more nuance to how viable Pokemon like Tornadus, Landorus, and Incineroar (for example) are compared to each other than can be accurately conveyed by a 5 tier system, imo. I'm not advocating for half tiers because that seems extremely silly to me/I can see it leading to even further confusion. Rather, I am more formally floating the idea (I've discussed this briefly on discord a few times but never on forums) of adopting a tiering system more akin to what the vast majority of the site (including both OU and VGC, and probably a lot of other formats idk I just checked the two biggest ones) uses, with S tier (or S+ depending on the metagame) through C tier (or possibly a D tier but I'm writing this before I actually record/theorycraft this and don't want to get too carried away). This allows for far more nuance I believe it would ultimately better for our tier's growth to have a VR that is more similar to what pretty much everybody else uses. I'm sure there's some historical precedent reason for the Tier 1-5 system that I'm lacking knowledge of, but as someone who's been playing since the tail end of SS I've just never understood why Tier 1-5 is what we use when it's incongruent with the rest of the site and feels so lackluster at the describing they way mons fit on teams. I'm also not really a fan of the super precise language used in the Tier 1-5 system, such as Tier 3's description:

Pokemon that are generally strong, but less powerful than those in Tier 2 or Pokemon that require a decent amount of support or a specific team style to function well, but are defining pieces to said archetypes.

To me, this description feels somewhat convoluted and unnecessary, whereas a S-C Tier system is more intuitive based on the relative strength/usability of mons and requires less of an explanation for each different level of mon. In the following video, I will delve further into the specific metagame staples that I believe would be more adequately ranked with the other system, but if you just want to see my general thoughts on the metagame and where I would put these mons in said VR, I will include my ranking (done in the S-C tier system) below.

eragon's suggestion of a S Tier system for the current metagame

Generally Ordered Within Tiers

S Rank

S Rank

Tornadus (Incarnate forme)
Landorus (Incarnate forme)
Ogerpon-Wellspring


S- Rank

Rillaboom
Incineroar

A Rank

A+ Rank

Iron Hands
Chien-Pao


A Rank

Glimmora
Raging Bolt
Ogerpon-Hearthflame

A- Rank

Gholdengo
Chi-Yu
Farigiraf



B Rank

B+ Rank

Ninetales-Alola
Kingambit
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon

B Rank

Ting-Lu
Archaludon
Kyurem
Gouging Fire
Landorus-Therian
Dragonite
Baxcalibur
Indeedee
Iron Crown
Regidrago
Sinistcha
Scream Tail


B- Rank

Amoonguss
Mew
Volcanion
Kommo-o
Tyranitar
Pelipper
Whimsicott
Porygon2
Torkoal
Diancie
Ursaluna


C Rank

C+ Rank

Arcanine-Hisui
Ogerpon-Cornerstone
Moltres-Galar
Walking Wake
Entei
Roaring Moon
Orthworm
Comfey
Okidogi

C Rank

Ogerpon
Latios
Articuno
Heatran
Lilligant-Hisui
Basculegion
Cresselia
Hatterene
Deoxys-Speed
Spectrier
Smeargle
Great Tusk
Tsareena
Volcarona
Registeel
Zapdos-Galar
Necrozma
Keldeo

C- Rank

Kleavor
Iron Bundle
Kingdra
Excadrill
Latias
Bronzong:
Dragapult
Clefairy
Primarina
Houndstone
Espathra
Suicune

D Rank

Terrakion
Cobalion
Metagross
Palafin
Grimmsnarl
Dondozo
Deoxys
Politoed
Goodra-Hisui
Garganacl
Gyarados
Wo-Chien
Ninetales

 

[Schister]

Preface: What follows is entirely my own opinion and I understand it will likely not be widely held really, I just personally feel the Tier 1-5 system is generally inadequate and too simplistic for representing the nature of the viability of the various mons in this metagame.

I've always felt this way, particularly when Flutter was legal and clearly superior to every other Pokemon in the format, even the other tier 1 mons, but I especially feel this system does not hold up well currently. There is far more nuance to how viable Pokemon like Tornadus, Landorus, and Incineroar (for example) are compared to each other than can be accurately conveyed by a 5 tier system, imo. I'm not advocating for half tiers because that seems extremely silly to me/I can see it leading to even further confusion. Rather, I am more formally floating the idea (I've discussed this briefly on discord a few times but never on forums) of adopting a tiering system more akin to what the vast majority of the site (including both OU and VGC, and probably a lot of other formats idk I just checked the two biggest ones) uses, with S tier (or S+ depending on the metagame) through C tier (or possibly a D tier but I'm writing this before I actually record/theorycraft this and don't want to get too carried away). This allows for far more nuance I believe it would ultimately better for our tier's growth to have a VR that is more similar to what pretty much everybody else uses. I'm sure there's some historical precedent reason for the Tier 1-5 system that I'm lacking knowledge of, but as someone who's been playing since the tail end of SS I've just never understood why Tier 1-5 is what we use when it's incongruent with the rest of the site and feels so lackluster at the describing they way mons fit on teams. I'm also not really a fan of the super precise language used in the Tier 1-5 system, such as Tier 3's description:



To me, this description feels somewhat convoluted and unnecessary, whereas a S-C Tier system is more intuitive based on the relative strength/usability of mons and requires less of an explanation for each different level of mon. In the following video, I will delve further into the specific metagame staples that I believe would be more adequately ranked with the other system, but if you just want to see my general thoughts on the metagame and where I would put these mons in said VR, I will include my ranking (done in the S-C tier system) below.

eragon's suggestion of a S Tier system for the current metagame

Generally Ordered Within Tiers

S Rank

S Rank

Tornadus (Incarnate forme)
Landorus (Incarnate forme)
Ogerpon-Wellspring


S- Rank

Rillaboom
Incineroar

A Rank

A+ Rank

Iron Hands
Chien-Pao


A Rank

Glimmora
Raging Bolt
Ogerpon-Hearthflame

A- Rank

Gholdengo
Chi-Yu
Farigiraf



B Rank

B+ Rank

Ninetales-Alola
Kingambit
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon

B Rank

Ting-Lu
Archaludon
Kyurem
Gouging Fire
Landorus-Therian
Dragonite
Baxcalibur
Indeedee
Iron Crown
Regidrago
Sinistcha
Scream Tail


B- Rank

Amoonguss
Mew
Volcanion
Kommo-o
Tyranitar
Pelipper
Whimsicott
Porygon2
Torkoal
Diancie
Ursaluna


C Rank

C+ Rank

Arcanine-Hisui
Ogerpon-Cornerstone
Moltres-Galar
Walking Wake
Entei
Roaring Moon
Orthworm
Comfey
Okidogi

C Rank

Ogerpon
Latios
Articuno
Heatran
Lilligant-Hisui
Basculegion
Cresselia
Hatterene
Deoxys-Speed
Spectrier
Smeargle
Great Tusk
Tsareena
Volcarona
Registeel
Zapdos-Galar
Necrozma
Keldeo

C- Rank

Kleavor
Iron Bundle
Kingdra
Excadrill
Latias
Bronzong:
Dragapult
Clefairy
Primarina
Houndstone
Espathra
Suicune

D Rank

Terrakion
Cobalion
Metagross
Palafin
Grimmsnarl
Dondozo
Deoxys
Politoed
Goodra-Hisui
Garganacl
Gyarados
Wo-Chien
Ninetales

The Keldeo propaganda will continue until VR improves O7
UR -> T5

 

[Darkmalice]

I'm sure there's some historical precedent reason for the Tier 1-5 system that I'm lacking knowledge of, but as someone who's been playing since the tail end of SS I've just never understood why Tier 1-5 is what we use when it's incongruent with the rest of the site and feels so lackluster at the describing they way mons fit on teams. I'm also not really a fan of the super precise language used in the Tier 1-5 system, such as Tier 3's description:

The Doubles community had used the S to E tiering system in the past, up to and including 6th Gen. It then got replaced in that Gen for the Tier 1 to 5 system, which then became standard for Doubles even in past gens.

The reasoning behind this was that, at the time, there were many viable Pokemon in Doubles. We were getting influxes of votes focusing on Pokemon in ranks C to D, that were taking away focus on the better and more standard Pokemon. We also made the mistake of tiering every nomination that was made at the time, including shitmons like Flygon and Jolteon that were clearly terrible picks and never seen to E instead of just omitting them from the tiering list. Tiering 1-5 enabled us to better focus on the better Pokemon (tiers S to B, some but not all of C), with fringe Pokemon or lesser used Pokemon not getting ranked even if they were potentially viable. The descriptions also enabled the community to more easily determine the appropriate rank for Pokemon, for example how to rank a Pokemon that is potentially excellent but requires notable support vs a Pokemon that is consistently good but not excellent, and also how to rank support vs offensive Pokemon. S to C was more subjective in terms of how to rank Pokemon based on their roles and support required. Granted, the playerbase is better than what it was back when the 1-5 systems was developed, with players generally being more capable of determining how good Pokemon are and ranking them correspondingly, including incorporating Pokemons' differing roles and support required.

I don't think there is overall a large difference between the ranks. But I think the S to C/D/E system would be better to adopt, primarily for consistency with the rest of Smogon including VGC. Doesn't help that the text descriptions include statements on the lines of (not as good as Pokemon above) which is self-explanatory. If text descriptions are still desired, the old descriptions can be incorporated into the new ranks of S, A, B, C, and D, being approximately equivalent to Tier 1 to 5 but would warrant some revisions both in text and ranking (arguably the translation is for S to C excluding D to Tiers 1 to 5, with many of the Pokemon in Tier 5 being more deserving of C rank than D rank).

 

[Actuarily]

We have updated the viability rankings! This update has seen quite a few pokemon move up into the first tier, which really shows how the meta has solidified around these top pokemon.

Thank you to everyone who nominated and voted.

Here are the changes:
T3 -> T4
T4 -> T3
T2 -> T1
T5 -> T4
T2 -> T3
T2 -> T1
T2 -> T1
T2 -> T1
T3 -> T2
T4 -> T3
T2 -> T3
T3 -> T4
T3 -> T4
T3 -> T4
UR ->T5
UR ->T5
T4 -> T5
T4 -> T3
T5 -> UR
T5 -> UR
T5 -> T3
T5 -> T4
T5 -> UR

Votes

3 -> 4

reasoning

Actuarily: T4, The amount of hazards and Dragon pokemon usage has really driven this further down the VR. While it generally can trade 1v1 with most (non-dragon) pokemon, it has an awkward speed tier that makes it really suffer vs most fast teams, and it has poor matchups into a lot of the best TR attackers (Ursalunas, Diancie, Iron Hands, etc.)

Akaru Kokuyo: T4. Rocks are quite popular currently and it’s not dealing much damage to more than half of the tier + takes too much damage back. Way better options for both Water types and Fire types.

Bage1: 4. Doesn’t have the widespread trading capabilities vs the metagame that it used to, while its resistances are less useful and weaknesses more of a liability. Raging Bolt, Landorus-I, Kyurem and Archaludon are just some examples of mons that are pushing Volcanion out of the meta. Even Rillaboom and Ogerpon(s) generally aren’t scared of Volcanion due to its lack of a grass resistance and low speed.

Eragon11145: 4. While not suffering the dramatic fall off that Heatran took, Volcanion’s use has gradually been declining for a while since the fire type became less valuable with Flutter’s ban. As Bagel noted, multiple strong metagame options match up well into it, primarily Landorus and Raging Bolt. Still has its place but metagame trends warrant a drop here.

Madaraaaa: 4. Landorus, glimmora and raging bolt weaknesses are not good for volcanion that seems to be able to do various things but poorly. That’s why in teambuilder usually better fire and water types are choosen.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. Really doesn’t like current meta between lando, raging bolt, dragons, more psyspam, etc. Even archetypes it should be decent against like hail, it feels too slow and awkward to use. Still has value with options like wisp but too much stuff is good against it.

SMB: Tier 4, doesn’t trade very well with most of the tier and the spam of dragon types. There are better options for fire and water types and doesn’t really fit on any popular playstyle atm.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Volcanion is a Water-type that loses to Landorus, which is horrible in this meta, and also a Fire-type which doesn’t resist Grass for going up against Rillaboom. Volcanion doesn’t really want to be stacked with Ogerpon-Wellspring or the variety of viable Fire-types at the moment either, so is pretty limited to teams that need a Fire- and Water-type in one slot and can look past its unconventional type matchups while making use of its middling Speed via Trick Room. bagel pointed out the poor Dragon-type matchup which is true but not really unique to Volcanion, the bigger problem IMO is the lack of positive matchups. It feels like Volcanion is at best okay against everything (while being slower) since it doesn’t reliably beat what it “should” for its types. Contrast this with Ogerpon-Wellspring which is basically the opposite with a number of positive matchups, and is at worst okay (but faster) against most stuff, and it’s easy to see why there’s little reason to use Volcanion over Ogerpon-Wellspring and a better Fire-type.

Zee: 4. Doesn’t really do anything particularly exceptional, has to stay at full health or spend tera to challenge Landorus-I, is held back by a pretty mediocre speed tier, and really hates the rise of Dragons in the tier.

4 -> 3

reasoning

Actuarily: T3, AV Kyurem is a tank on snow, and has excellent coverage & special attacks that lets it beat most of the tier. Can be run outside of snow, but is noticeably less bulky. It does have a few popular checks though that hold it back from higher tiers in Gholdengo, Glimmora, & Iron Hands among a few others.

Akaru Kokuyo: T3. Kyurem is good into a lot of the genies-pon teams even if it doesn’t have Snow up. Can even run Speed Control in Glaciate and has at least 3 usable items + 6 moves that can use, which makes it pretty flexible as well.

Bage1: 3. Lots of stats and trades well vs a lot of common mons. With snow + veil it's exceptionally bulky and can slow down a lot of physical offense compositions. It can trade comfortably with Landorus and has wide coverage to hit the entire metagame. Assault Vest enhances its ability to stay on the board and trade but offensive sets such as Choice Specs work too because it still has great bulk.

Eragon11145: 3. Extremely consistent mon for snow and the face of the archetype, together with Ninetales. Trades really effectively into both the Torn offense teams and some of the Ting-Lu stuff as well. Definitely a solid mon that has proven that it has its place in this metagame with results across several successful teams for the last few months, such as the new snow sample.

Madaraaaa: T3. Good stats and coverage + snow defense boost give to kyurem a good rank in the metagame. Solid coverage that hits genies, dragons, steel, fire, grass and av under veil can be difficult to ko.

Nido-Rus: T3, very solid mon with both specs and AV sets. One of the major reasons for rocks to be worth clicking right now to limit this thing’s bulk and switchin potential, since snow + aveil makes this so hard to kill. Ice is also an amazing offensive type right now which is great for blizzspam.

SMB: tier 3, both ninetales and baxcalibur are in this tier and kyurem isn’t worse than both of them. Key on snow teams that have different set up options than baxcalibur since it trades really well with snow and veil

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Snow teams are fairly strong and Kyurem is one of the primary beneficiaries, being extremely bulky while having powerful Blizzards rounded out by Earth Power and Freeze Dry for coverage. Kyurem matches really well into all of the top 4 Pokemon of Landorus/Ogerpon-Wellspring/Rillaboom/Tornadus, with many teams stacking several Ice-type weaknesses, and often teams will struggle to really damage Kyurem outside of one or two teammates. While Kyurem’s base typing is quite nice defensively, its bulk also lends nicely to it being a decent Tera user if required, though far from requires it to be effective.

Zee: Tier 3. Kyurem’s bulk and power make are the backbone of snow’s success in the metagame, it has excellent coverage and a strong matchup spread as well which make it very difficult to remove before it can chunk any team significantly.

2 -> 1

reasoning

Actuarily: T1, is one of the hardest hitters in the tier, and Landorus’ two moves hit so many of the top pokemon super effectively. Either Substitute or speed control lets it beat many of its would-be checks like Chien-Pao and Ogerpon-Wellspring, and so structures like Incin/Wellspring/Lando/Torn are extremely effective at offering it both chances to sub or get tailwind up.

Akaru Kokuyo: T1. It took several months of seeing this Pokémon do work to finally acknowledge it as T1. It threatens 80% of the meta with 2 moves alone, and can turn games by itself if you guess incorrectly or predict against the wrong move. New Tera options such as Steel and Ghost allow it to live things that KOd it before, so now it gets to live even more time and still deal a lot of damage. Sure it has a big x4 weakness, but the offensive pressure it creates surpasses that weakness by a lot.

Bage1: 1. I think this is at least on the same level as Wellspring. Its offensive firepower is unmatched in the tier and the threat of it to set up a Substitute creates so much pressure. While it is relatively frail and has exploitable weaknesses, there are only a few pokemon that truly threaten Landorus on a neutral board state, and partners such as Incineroar/Wellspring/Rillaboom are really easy to fit and help out Landorus more than just about any other mon in the tier (Landorus also fares well into Incin+Rillaboom generally). Scarf is also very real and always needs to be respected.

Eragon11145: 1. I’ve been saying that this mon is at the center of this metagame for a while as the premier offensive wallbreaker. While the metagame has definitely developed archetypes that punish this mon (Ting Lu and Snow teams in particular) Landorus still finds ways to win games and if this isn’t in Tier 1 I really don’t know what is given its widespread usage. Landorus’ ability to easily damage the common positional tools in the format are really what let it shine, with the ability to hit Incin/Rilla/Wellspring for large amounts of damage provided the speed control is its favor. The variety of 3rd move options between substitute, sandsear, and even niche options like nasty plot or psychic lend it even more strength. Very important mon in this metagame that absolutely belongs in Tier 1.

Madaraaaa: T1. Can be not so resistent but the offensive power of lando i is incredible. Is the premier killer of the metagame, ground + poison coverage with sheer force + life orb can one/two hit ko the entire metagame, sandsear storm evades redirection. Can use tera to cover its weaknesses and boost the offensive moveset. Prefers tailwind but can be used also scarf to revenge kill. Is indeed a semi-automatic pick in builder.

Nido-Rus: Tier 1. If there was a 1.5 I would vote for that. Very consistent solid offensive mon that just simply Works very consistently. As it stands, I think it’s better than tier 2 mons but not exactly as metagame-defining as I would consider a Tier 1 mon to be. Might call for expanding the definition of Tier 1 and keeping 6-7 mons there, as we don’t really have pokemon like flutter mane or megas right now that stand head and shoulders above the rest.

SMB: Tier 1, rn we have like 4-5 pokemon that are in between tier 1 and 2 so when I look at the vr I think at the moment it makes more sense to place all of them in tier 1 (this is a reasoning that is valid for all the other pokemon which are tornadus, ogerpon, rillaboom and incineroar). I wouldn’t say anything has changed for lando but it is the go-to mon if your team needs a solid special and fast attacker and it threatens a wide number of popular pokemon.

Yoda2798: Tier 1. I’ve come around to the fact that the tier placements are still slightly out of wack from Flutter Mane before and it shouldn’t just be Ogerpon-Wellspring by its lonesome. Landorus is definitely in the elite tier of few Pokemon that are best in the tier as one of the strongest and most splashable attackers. Its Ground-type STAB attacks are very difficult to switch into, with Sludge Bomb for Ogerpon-Wellspring/Rillaboom ironically making itself one of the best resists. Combined with a decent Speed, this lets Landorus put immense pressure on the vast majority of the unboosted metagame, outside of Pokemon which outspeed and threaten it like Ogerpon and Chien-Pao (though as bagel said, Choice Scarf is a real set as well). Sandsear Storm for spread or Substitute to take advantage of Protects and help against Fake Out/priority give Landorus another weapon in its arsenal as well. Landorus fits the bill as a Pokemon basically every team wants and every team needs to think about, and one of the absolute best in the tier.

Zee: Tier 1. Landorus checks so many boxes for so many teams in the metagame, of course the main one being strong Ground coverage in a tier where several high level teams are coming in with ~3 Ground weak Pokemon. Additionally, it fits on a variety of team structures, often serving as crucial checks to the likes of Raging Bolt/Archaludon. Sludge Bomb gives it perfect coverage and Sandsear Storm even gives it access to a powerful spread move that makes it difficult to play around. Every team has to consider their Landorus matchup as one of the first priorities in the builder and that stands out as a tier 1 threat to me.

5 -> 3

reasoning

Actuarily: T4, while it can set hazards and whirlwind, it struggles into many of the top threats, forcing it to be a tera hog. Glimmora’s high usage gives it both competition as a hazards setter as well as a viable hazards remover. Other sets like AV or CB rely on others to help set it up, and are often underwhelming and would rather be spent setting up more offensive threats.

Akaru Kokuyo: T3. This mon alone brought the hazards meta back and it’s very good into a lot of the Heavy Special Attackers teams. Sure it virtually hits nothing, but it tanks basically all hits and has great utility in Whirlwind, Snarl, Ruination and even Taunt, while having an almost guaranteed hazard up thanks to the aforementioned bulk. If paired with Grassy Terrain and Leftovers, this thing can last on the field for a good amount of turns and disrupt many Pokémon.

Bage1: 4. There aren’t many good hazard setters and Ting Lu carves out a solid niche for itself but it's still way too lacking offensively and one-dimensional in its utility to be any higher than 4. It has a bad typing and wants to tera out of matchups with common mons as Rillaboom, Ogerpon and Chien Pao which feels bad for your fat hit-taker that doesn’t scare anyone. It generally requires specific partners to patch its weaknesses leaving it only usable in 1 archetype for the most part.

Eragon11145: 3. Probably the most significant metagame shift in the last few months, this mon has seen a huge uptick in usage as a means to set hazards. It also partners well with a variety of different metagame staples– see some of the Chien-Pao/Ting-Lu teams we’ve seen. The bulk makes it extremely difficult to remove, and most teams only have one or two ways to actually remove it quickly, which means it’s able to get hazards up in the vast majority of games. Additionally, the utility from one of the most unique abilities in the game means it pairs excellently with mons like Gouging Fire.

Madaraaaa: T4. Good hazards setter and phazer, mitigates special attackers, but has a lot of typing weaknesses, is too passive after first turns. Should not be underrated and works well also if boosted by coaching/howl, but I think T4 is fair.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. I think it’s definitely been a fun metagame call as an answer to psyspam and rocks-weak teams, and it fits in well into the gouging fire/chien pao etc archetype, but it still has significant issues with just being too slow in a way that can leave openings for big momentum shifts for the opponent. Feels like the kind of mon that you really want to tera when facing blizzspam, waterpon, rilla etc, but often just doesn’t provide enough value when you do click tera.

SMB: Tier 3, fits pretty well on teams based on physical attackers, I wouldn’t say it’s that important that it is slow af there since most of the team has prio attacks. Its ability is insane on those teams. Really annoying to deal with and can cheap an entire team while preventing being a set up fodder.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Ting-Lu has recently solidified itself a niche which is better than it’s position before, but I don’t think it’s a strong enough niche for Tier 3. Ting-Lu is very fat and hard to kill, but the flip side is how hard it is for it to kill anything else, which is generally worse than more offensive Pokemon. Purely hazard setting and Whirlwinding is quite niche, I’d say it’s the addition of being a Howl recipient (i.e. it’s nice partnership with Gouging Fire) making the argument for Tier 3 here, but even then Ting Lu’s not that amazing, I find it usually underwhelming rather than overwhelming. I don’t think Ting Lu has the general applicability or importance to phys spam builds for Tier 3, it’s more niche than that.

Zee: 4. I think Ting-Lu is a Pokemon that lives and dies by momentum. Thanks to it’s bulk/typing/ability it can be a roadblock for many of the tier’s offensive threats like Raging Bolt, Regidrago, Tornadus, and Iron Crown, but it can also be a momentum sink if whatever’s on the field isn’t getting Whirlwinded into multiple hazards or losing half their health from Ruination. It’s slow but isn’t really the type of mon to be useful on Trick Room, so it mostly just sits around hoping it can accomplish its goals faster than its foes.

2 -> 3

reasoning

Actuarily: Tier 3, there’s been rises in usage of a lot of pokemon that this struggles with, and as Eragon mentioned Archetypes that Gholdengo is supposed to be good into like snow have become even more prepared for it.

Akaru Kokuyo: T3. A lot of the new meta stuff is just not Dengo-friendly. Firepon, Ting-Lu, Incineroar & Gouging Fire rises are all bad news for Gholdengo. I think setup set is specially affected by these changes, but Choiced ones, even though they’re usable, aren’t really that great. Still, this Pokémon is probably the one that punishes passive teams/plays the most (After Landorus), so you still have to be careful around it.

Bage1: 3. Lando-i, Hearthflame and Kingambit are all used quite commonly = bad for Gholdengo. Still a very effective setup option but it is more reliant on tera and its partners than before.

Eragon11145: 3. Agree with Bagel here. I still think the mon is very strong with one of the best typings in the metagame and can easily take over games, but it’s becoming a bit more difficult to fit on teams with the rise of several top level mons that threaten to take it out before it can even get going. As an example, one of Gholdengo’s greatest strengths imo was the ability to carry a team’s snow matchup, but the most popular snow team now carries both Gambit and Landorus, making it much harder for Gholdengo to do its job.

Madaraaaa: T2. Even if struggles vs incineroar, kingambit, landorus has the potential to switch in free vs many other pokemons and has time to setup relatively free, supported with tera or redirection or tailwind. Is not shining right now as before but has the qualities to be in tier 2.

Nido-Rus: Going with T3 for now. I think a big issue right now with dengo is that a majority of people still just slap on lefties tera dragon, and that set has become quite abusable lately with dragons like gouging fire, bolt, archaludon etc as well as hail. Definitely better tera options right now in the current meta. Beyond that, non-NP sets are usable but have been somewhat iffy for a while.

SMB: Tier 2, I think it’s a bit less splashable mainly because sets different than nasty plot are dropping in usage but nasty plot is easily the most threatening set up attacker the tier has.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Gholdengo is still one of the most used common in Derby after the top four, recent meta trends haven’t been super favourable for it but I think that still puts it on the lower end of Tier 2. In Derby, Gholdengo has been the most common spread attacker (I’m not counting Tornadus) and setup Pokemon, being one of the top Tornadus partners in particular. I think the main thing is that Gholdengo can no longer just Tera Dragon and say “Flutter Mane is gone, nothing hits me hard now”, it’s a matter of choosing what resists/weaknesses you want your Tera to have (Fairy is pretty good). Gholdengo doesn’t always need to Tera though, redirection/Tailwind can often make up for it, while natural Fake Out immunity is nice for not having Tailwind turns wasted. Good as Gold is also really big for a setup Pokemon right now, Taunt/Encore/Whirlwind are all going around and immunity to those is very nice. In other words, Gholdengo is not quite as good as before, but it’s still the best at what it does, which keeps it Tier 2.

Zee: Tier 2, one of the best setup options in the tier with a broken ability and typing. Invalidates so much and can win games in one turn at times.

2 -> 1

reasoning

Actuarily: T2, while intimidate fake out pivot is always gonna be useful, most of the pokemon you’d want to intimate hit Incin hard, like Wellspring, Chien-Pao, Iron Hands, Lando-t, etc. and the top of the VR is also littered with a lot of special attackers that punish Incin like Glimmora, Lando, and Archaludon.

Akaru Kokuyo: T2. Honestly the closest T2 mon to T1 now. The only reason I don’t give it T1 is because of the weakness to Landorus and Waterpon, which is HUGE. Outside of that it checks many things with Intimidate, works as a pivot with Parting Shot or Uturn, Fire/Dark stabs that hit pretty strong, and can even run extra utility in moves like Will-o-Wisp or Roar.

Bage1: 1. I’ve been on the Incineroar tier 1 train for a while, and it basically does what it has always done in past formats, there are just less ways to punish it. Weaknesses to Lando-i and Wellspring can be exploited but Incin’s ability to be a blanket check to so many powerful mons such as Rillaboom, Chi-Yu, Chien Pao, and Ogerpon-Hearthflame makes it valuable in every game. Lots of physical offense structures really struggle into Incineroar if they can’t manage to deal with it quickly. Its ability to set the pace of the game is second to none and grants more control to the player than any other mon in the tier.

Eragon11145: 1. Incin has unsurprisingly established itself as a vital positional tool in this metagame, fitting on the vast majority of teams. Incin’s easily customizable movepool and the somewhat slower pace of the tier the last several months have allowed it to rise a tier in my eyes. As an aside, I agree with Yoda that the VR should be somewhat restructured to account for the less centralized nature of the tier– one tier 1 Pokemon doesn’t cut it anymore. Incin absolutely belongs at the same level as mons like Landorus, Rilla, Wellspring, etc which are clearly a bit above the rest in terms of splashability.

Madaraaaa: T1. The versatility, the utility of this pokemon are well known and have no equal. Suffers lando i and waterpon that are tier 1, but faces pretty well the rest of the vr. I see it at the same level of rilla and is tier one for me. Fits in every archetype, can switch in/out controlling the field with fout/parting shot/wisp, that combo is annoying also for pokemons that in theory are supposed to delete inci (hands, ursaluna…).

Nido-Rus: Tier 1. If we’re judging by the standard of taking Lando-I up to 1, I think it’s worth considering moving Incin to 1. With this I definitely think we should call for a redefinition of tier 1. Incin is still very solid, but far from the overpowering metagame presence it had in gen 7 to make it tier 1. A lot of physical mons either just don’t care about intim or benefit from it, while a majority of the top specially offensive mons also don’t mind dealing with incin. Against torn or chi-yu incin runs the risk of seeing a covert cloak or tera ghost respectively, lando and glim of course threaten it heavily, and raging bolt can often just setup in its face or pivot out. Despite that, incin still provides significant utility value against a good chunk of current tier 2 and a significant majority of mons below that. As yoda mentioned earlier, the metagame just isn’t nearly as centralized as it has been in previous generations, so our original definitions of what we consider tier 1 are rather misaligned with what we’d currently consider the ‘most’ viable set of mons.

SMB: Tier 1, has some difficult matchups vs ogerpon or lando but it is an excellent check for threats like gholdengo and fire types apart from the stuff it has always done, intimidating, enabling other stuff with fake out and parting shot... It really benefits from the tier not having fairy types and only having 1 viable water type. I think it is at the same level of the rest of the stuff I’m going to rank at tier 1.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. In regular season of Derby, Incineroar is in the group lagging a level below the top 4 in usage, with only 1 more use than Gholdengo which some people are voting Tier 3, and less than Chien-Pao. When the name of your game is “splashable glue” that’s not hitting the quota to be Tier 1 in the same vein Rillaboom is. For an Intimidate Pokemon, Incineroar has a surprisingly tough time against the most common physical attackers: Ogerpon-Wellspring hits it super effectively (Rillaboom being a much better switch-in is a massive difference between the two), so do Chien-Pao and Iron Hands, Kingambit and Dragonite are boosted and have immunity respectively, Gouging Fire does get Intimidated but is completely unthreatened so can often continue Howling up to negate it, and Baxcalibur often runs Clear Amulet for immunity. Incineroar is a great switch-in for Rillaboom and opposing Incineroar, though that’s not too difficult for other Pokemon to cover due to mono-coverage/weak attacks respectively, leaving Ogerpon-Hearthflame as the one main thing you are notable at stopping (though you still don’t really threaten it), which is nice but not amazing by itself. Oh by the way Will-O-Wisp is cool but you’re nearly always burning after they’ve attacked so it’s quite reactive and just too late than you’d like. So in comparison to the other Fake Out users, Rillaboom and Iron Hands, you’re worse into top threats Ogerpon-Wellspring and Landorus (Iron Hands lives an Earth Power from full and has Ice Punch), and are much weaker offensively, but get the unique utility of Intimidate, Parting Shot, and Knock Off. That trade-off is usually not in Incineroar’s favour, since as I mentioned before most physical attackers are either immune to Intimidate or threaten Incineroar, and the other moves don’t feel particularly great in this meta, Parting Shot even has a couple ways to be blocked unlike U-Turn, and item removal isn’t that important for anything. This is related to the matchups I mentioned before and it’s relatively weak offensive capabilities, but Incineroar often feels good for the switch-in and Fake Out/Intimidate, but after that first turn is a sitting duck you don’t want on the field because it’s either threatened or unable to do anything useful, far more than Rillaboom and more than Iron Hands do. Incineroar is good, but not a “slap on anything because every team wants it” good like Rillaboom, there are other Fake Out users and other Fire-types teams want instead.

Zee: 1. The premier support option for so many team comps. Even if more things are immune to Intimidate than ever, just having a consistent Fake Out pivot makes so many Pokemon more difficult to deal with, especially if being run in tandem with double Fake Out i.e. Rillaboom and/or redirection support a la Ogerpon-W or Sinistcha. Knock Off and Will-O-Wisp have incredible utility and Flare Blitz is still great Fire damage.

2 -> 1

reasoning

Actuarily: T1, as others have mentioned it has a great matchup into many top threats, especially with its options for coverage moves, all the while also being one of the best utility mons.

Akaru Kokuyo: T1. Totally agree with Yoda’s take on this, also adding it’s not-so-popular utility moves are great as niche to get a surprise advantage like Brick Break (vs screens/snow), Snarl (to help teammate setup), Drum Beating (speed control besides Glide), etc.

Bage1: 1. Yoda put Rillaboom’s biggest advantages in the meta well. It has one of the best matchups into Ogerpon-Wellspring and can face down Landorus in a pinch with its solid bulk and/or Grassy Glide priority. Rillaboom’s offensive traits push it into tier 1, with Wood Hammer being one of the strongest attacks in the game and extremely spammable into neutral board states. Its mix of offense, priority, utility and bulk make it fit on just about any team.

Eragon11145: 1. Another one of the mons I’d place in the highest level. The role compression with this mon is pretty much unmatched, as it combines the ability to output large amounts of damage with Wood Hammer (usually picking up critical ko’s on mons like Landorus or Wellspring) with the ability to pivot around and support a variety of teammates with fake out/uturn. One of the few top tier mons that effectively handles/mitigates the rise in Ting-Lu compositions as well, which is a pretty big benefit in my eyes.

Madaraaaa: T1. Yoda explained perfectly the power of rilla. Strong hammer, priority, pivoting moves make it so versatile. Hits hard too what has to hit, like lando, waterpon, wood hammer in general destroy non resisted opponents. Most of times cannot face dragons (bolt, baxcalibur, kommo-o), tornadus, incineroar and other valid pokemons but that is not what rilla has to do.

Nido-Rus: Tier 1. Rilla doesn’t quite like the popularity of blizzspam or gouging fire howl teams, but continues to provide consistent and solid value while also just being a great pick on those archetypes itself. Yoda puts it well.

SMB: Tier, probably the most complete pokemon the tier has, it’s been tier 1 for a while to me, as long as you can cover the bad matchups against dragon and steel types, rillaboom is always going to do great

Yoda2798: Tier 1. As it did earlier this generation Rillaboom has crept up to the upper echelons of the tier again and is again one of the top used Pokemon now. Everyone knows what Rillaboom does at this point so I’ll try to focus on what makes it good now in particular. The biggest part by far is Rillaboom’s ability to check top-tier threat Ogerpon-Wellspring, easily eating up both its STAB attacks while threatening a Wood Hammer which will typically KO, at least with a little chip, and is easily the most splashable Pokemon able to switch into Ogerpon-Wellspring comfortably. On top of this, Grassy Terrain powers up your own Ogerpon, which despite stacking Grass-types is typically a nice combo to run as well. Compared to the other Fake Out users Incineroar and Iron Hands, Rillaboom also offers less of a weakness to other top threat Landorus, as despite the weakness to Sludge Bomb it does provide a valuable Earth Power resist, and can pick off weakened Landorus with Grassy Glide. These matchups along with Rillaboom’s decent Speed and powerful Wood Hammer option make it the clear best Fake Out user/pivot in the format, being an effective glue Pokemon for bulkier and more offensive teams alike.

Zee: Tier 1. Great bulk, priority, Fake Out + pivot, terrain management, a great pool of coverage moves, and a full power Wood Hammer hits incredibly hard. There are a lot of grass resists in the tier but it’s pretty easy to find the partners so that Rillaboom can blow holes in the enemy teams, or it can just sit back and take the role of a support Pokemon that chips foes or finishes weakened ones off with Grassy Glide.

2 -> 1

reasoning

Actuarily: T1. The best tailwind setter in the tier, an absolute staple on offense. Also pairs well with many strong attackers like Lando/Glimmora/Archaludon/Gholdengo.

Akaru Kokuyo: T1. After messing around with this a bit more I can finally give it the T1 status. Basically the premier Speed Control Pokémon, Bleakwind is a funny spammable move, can run whatever 4th it wants like Taunt, Icy Wind, and even funny moves like Focus Blast, Heat Wave, or Tera Blast. Even while running a defensive spread, it can do so much damage with partners like Landorus, Ogerpon, Chi-Yu, etc.

Bage1: 1. Best option for speed control, you would need a very very good reason to choose a different tailwind setter than Tornadus as it is extremely versatile and consistent. Bulky sets can consistently set Tailwind 2-3 times per game, and can often sit on the board spamming Bleakwind Storm. Between manual weather, Taunt, Icy Wind, or random coverage Tornadus can be easily customized to meet a team's needs. Offensive Focus Sash sets deserve a mention as well, and it can often punch holes in unprepared teams with its damage (or deny opposing Tailwind with fast Prankster Taunt). As others have mentioned one of its best traits is its defensive value into Ogerpon+Rillaboom and Landorus, often threatening 2hkos back. It's not infallible vs everything and can feel like a dead slot against some bulkier mons but so much of the meta revolves around Tornadus’s prankster Tailwind and how to either take advantage of it or beat it.

Eragon11145: 1. Far and away the best form of speed control in the format, outclassing pretty much any other tailwind setter and pairing excellently with many different offensive mons that all need its prankster tailwind to really compete with other fast teams. Tornadus’ ability to carry different status moves (learning each of the four weather setting moves, taunt, and more) depending on the team it’s supporting makes it invaluable to so many teams. Importantly, the addition of bleakwind has really allowed it to improve from gen 8, as it is now able to stick around on the field and spread reasonable damage across the board in ways it was never able to before. Contrary to other tailwind setting mons, bleakwind lends Torn the damage output to stay in AFTER clicking tailwind more often than not. This is a very significant difference from a mon like Whimsicott, which often just likes to click encore and tailwind and then pivot out, not capitalizing on its own speed control in the way Torn does. While Torn is punishable with stuff like snow or Ting-Lu hazards, its speed control is so singular and so powerful that it absolutely belongs in the highest tier.

Madaraaaa: T1. Easyclick tailwind setter of the meta in priority, is T1 because no other mon can put positive speed control better than tornadus. Has also good supporting movepool (sunnyday, raindance, taunt, scaryface) and can change the game. Flying stab hits hard, with spatk investment can be surprising. Tornadus is faster than ogerpons, landorus and so on… and has also icy wind. Another amazing quality.

Nido-Rus: Another tier 1. Torn just continues to provide the most consistent and strong speed control, particularly with its unique combination of prankster tailwind with an actually threatening offensive move, unlike whimsicott. Defines the face of offense right now where a very significant factor in offense matchups is who better preserves their torn to get in a key tailwind setup near the endgame, or who can best make use of early tailwind turns to break holes in their opponent’s team. Torn also particularly valuable for its great matchups into waterpon, rilla, and lando-I.

SMB: Tier 1, tailwind is too important on many team compositions and tornadus is the premier and almost only setter that is seen at the moment. Being able to handle the tailwind wars vs other tornadus is very game defining and due to dynamic speed is an excellent partner for almost any set up pokemon

Yoda2798: Tier 1. As I said for Landorus, we need to open up Tier 1 a little from just Ogerpon-Wellspring. Tornadus is currently top for usage in Derby, and far and away the best speed control in the tier. Yes it is not a world beater, but it is best in class for a reason, and as the dominant presence of speed control it deserves to sit in Tier 1. Bleakwind Storm offers passable enough offensive presence, and notably lets Tornadus check the ever-present Ogerpon-Wellspring and Rillaboom which teams appreciate, while defensively Tornadus offers a precious Ground-type immunity for Landorus. Beyond that you have options like Taunt for disruption, Sunny Day and Rain Dance to benefit teammates and override opposing weather, or Icy Wind to become one of the best Landorus checks, but those are really all just supplementary. Tornadus’ job is basically to set Tailwind twice in a game, and the typical bulky set with Covert Cloak is very reliable at that. The bits of value Tornadus provides beyond that can be nice but they’re just a bonus, Tornadus is often not that useful on the field after setting Tailwind, and that’s okay because of how valuable Tailwind alone is. The list of Pokemon which benefit from Tailwind are endless, so instead I’ll just say that when it comes to speed control in SV, you basically need your own Tornadus, or a strong way to handle opposing Tornadus like Trick Room or priority. It is not just THE Tailwind setter but THE speed control Pokemon in this meta and deserves its place in Tier 1 for that despite its shortcomings outside of that.

Zee: Tier 1. Tornadus has pretty much everything you’d ever want in a prankster Pokemon’s kit in this metagame: Speed control, weather control, disruption (taunt), and powerful offense, as even uninvested Bleakwind Storm is doing considerable damage to neutral targets. You can run bulky sets or offensive sets to fit whichever role you’d prefer it have on a team. To touch more on Prankster Tailwind + weather management though, it is just absurd how many Pokemon Tornadus can support with the click of 1-2 buttons, Landorus-I, pretty much any Ogerpon form, Archaludon, Gholdengo, Regidrago, Iron Crown, and the list goes on a mile long. If you aren’t using Tornadus then your first job in the teambuilder is beating Tailwind bulky offense.

3 -> 2

reasoning

Actuarily: T2. Has a great speed tier, and tera-ing fire not only increases its attack to crazy high levels, but also often gives it a better defensive typing as most things faster than it like Torn & chien pao take advantage of the grass typing. It’s moved back up into arguably the top 2 or 3 fires in the tier.

Akaru Kokuyo: T2. Has seen a more offensive role than Waterpon and is successful at it. Tera from this thing puts a lot of pressure into virtually anything that’s not Incineroar or a Dragon, and even then it can run coverage moves like Stomping Tantrum and Play Rough. Can also be a win condition with Swords Dance and pressure even more.

Bage1: 2. One of the most instantly threatening mons in the tier with Tera Fire while sharing a lot of the versatility that Waterpon has. One of the best answers to snow teams and slower paced teams in general. Swords Dance and Focus Energy are both good setup options that punish different counterplay, while Follow Me or Encore are still very valid utility options as Firepon doesn’t need setup to be threatening.

Eragon11145: 2. We’ve really seen this mon come back to the forefront of the metagame over the last few months. No one has ever really doubted its damage output but for a while it was a little more difficult to fit on teams due to direct competition with Wellspring. However, the other fires (besides incin) have seen less play and Hearthflame’s wallbreaking abilities make it worth it on more teams than we’ve seen in the past. Also plays the follow me vs swords dance mindgame a bit better than Wellspring I’d say, which for the most part has defaulted to follow me. Solid mon that’s among the best wallbreakers in the format and its increase in usage warrants a rise here.

Madaraaaa: T2. Still one of the strongest offensive weapon around, I think you can convert it to offense/defense depending on the team you want to create, but also during the game: tera fire can disrupt the field. Struggles vs dragons and vs other fire types and is weak to rocks, on the other side grass+fire is good coverage and also is a particular fire pokemon that has not water/ground weakness. With all this mix, for me firepon is tier 2.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2. Tera fire is a lot more valuable right now with stuff like hail and ting lu around. One major factor in this thing’s value is that it’s an extremely fast fire that can provide immediate offensive pressure. Gouging fire is the only other viable fire in a similar speed tier (with arc-h significantly behind considering it’s slower than lando) and is nice for boosting your team with howl or mitigating damage with breaking swipe, but can’t provide big bonks on demand like firepon

SMB: Tier 2, always has the option to tera and break almost any pokemon that doesn’t resist fire while also having the support tools that ogerpon water offers but with a worse typing and ability

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Ogerpon-Wellspring’s ability to fit on practically any team has caused Hearthflame to go under the radar a bit, Wellspring is obviously amazing but there are good reasons why you’d want to go this Ogerpon forme instead. As others have said, the obvious one is how good Ogerpon-Hearthflame is offensively, with Tera Fire Ivy Cudgel being a single-target nuke on one of the fastest Pokemon in the meta. Like Wellspring, Hearthflame is also great at fitting Follow Me to double as a redirector if needed (e.g. the ESM sample with ID Kommo-o/CM Iron Crown) which helps its splashability compared to a pure attacker. MADARAAAA pointed this out, but what I think is the biggest reason for Ogerpon-Hearthflame’s rise is the matchup into Water-/Ground-types compared to other Fire-types. By Water-type I of course I mean Ogerpon-Wellspring, which Hearthflame is not weak to, and as they will often not be max Speed while you usually are, Hearthflame also outspeed and can KO a weakened Wellspring or gamble with Tera for a KO if you think you’re faster (as Tera will make you die to their Ivy Cudgel as well). That isn’t unique though, Incineroar still Intimidates Ogerpon-Wellspring, while Gouging Fire isn’t weak to it either, the real gamechanger is Hearthflame’s Landorus matchup. Now it’s true you aren’t weak to Ground, but you still die to Sludge Bomb so that doesn’t mean much. What does mean everything though is Ogerpon-Hearthflame outspeeds Landorus, so with some chip, or as is often a good play in games, Hearthflame uses Tera, then Landorus will be beaten by your Fire-type, which yeah it’s a bit conditional, but the other Fire-types are all losing to Landorus nearly always so that’s a world of difference, especially in this meta with how good Landorus is. So for the many teams wanting a Fire-type that doesn’t just lose to Landorus, or teams wanting an Ogerpon with a nuclear offensive Tera option, Hearthflame fits easily in as one of the best Fire-types and offensive Pokemon in the tier.

Zee: Tier 2. Hearthflame is a nuke. It is something that has to be immediately respected when it hits the field, because if not it will pop tera and begin to punch massive holes in your team. The speed tier lets it sit above basically everything in the top 3 tiers besides Tornadus, ChienPao, and scarfers/booster energy users, which means a lot of the time it is staring down a slot that it both outspeeds and is ready to OHKO. Such an easy Pokemon to support with Tornadus’s Tailwind and even Sunny Day as well. And of course, there’s huge value in a Fire-type that isn’t actually weak to Water- and Ground-types.

Low-Tier Sweep

 

[Actuarily]

Part two of the post, as the write-ups put it over the word count.

Votes part two

4 -> 3

reasoning

Actuarily: T3, being able to set TR and block priority (especially even after Rilla switchins) with decent bulk is enough. So many teams rely on priority or fake out to be able to beat TR, and this stops those counterplays perfectly, which is enough to rise despite its bad typing & meh offense if you make it as bulky as it needs to be.

Akaru Kokuyo: T3. Agree with Yoda. Archetype popularity is what has made this rise. Does great blocking priority and is pretty good with support moves like Ally Switch, Helping Hand and Trick Room.

Bage1: 3. Blocking priority as a bulky Trick Room setter is such an extremely useful toolkit that lets it fit on multiple different team styles. It's been most common on Torn HO as counterplay Fake Out/Priority and to maintain speed control. Overall just a mon that provides a lot of control over the game.

Eragon11145: 3. Excellent partner for Tornadus offense teams, allowing torn to run more offensive sets by dropping the cloak. Enables offense to have a much better TR matchup which is also very helpful, and synergizes greatly with Bloodmoon as well. Can even output non-negligible damage itself with options like either nasty plot or more commonly by holding a throat spray.

Madaraaaa: T3. I agree with the companion here.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Feel like tier 3 would have been more appropriate 2ish months ago when ursa-bm farig teams were very popular, but it still maintains the value from back then if not as much of the usage.

SMB: Tier 3, on semiroom teams it is one of the most reliable options, i think it’s easier to set up tr with other stuff but farigiraf works well outside of trick room due to its ability. Can also fit in offense teams just because of its ability so it’s a bit more versatile than other tr setters

Yoda2798: Tier 3. I’m a big Farigiraf hater but the rise in Ursaluna-Bloodmoon TailRoom teams featuring it is enough to push it up for me. Its role is to block priority, set/reverse Trick Room, and do a mediocre amount of damage, which is on paper pretty meh, but Farigiraf’s an important enough part of the aforementioned archetype (which is a pretty viable one) to go in Tier 3 for me.

Zee: Tier 3. Like others have mentioned there are more reliable TR setters but Farigiraf’s total kit is very valuable, it’s decently bulky and priority block enables so much on both fast and slow team styles.

2 -> 3

reasoning

Actuarily: T3, can definitely win games, but every solid team has a good enough matchup into this that pulling off the Archaludon sweep has become much more difficult.

Akaru Kokuyo: T3. Pretty sad to see this go down after having a suspect of it, but unfortunately meta development hasn’t been kind to Arch. Tera Hungry + Begging the entire team to support it + having some very lame matchups just forces Archaludon to the Tier 3.

Bage1: 3. People have learned how to build and play around Electro Shot sets much better. In general Archaludon is just very slow and requires too much unique support to be tier 2. Both Electro Shot and Iron Defense sets generally require multiple turns of setup to become truly threatening, and the dire Lando-I matchup makes Archaludon a bit of a tera hog, and even then it's usually easy for teams to pin Arch pre and post tera with common combinations such as Lando-I + Chien Pao or Raging Bolt.

Eragon11145: 3. Still a strong mon that can be extremely annoying and take over games but the metagame has more properly adapted to it and we’ve haven’t seen enough rain usage for this mon to have the flexibility to fit into tier 2 imo. Good synergy with stuff like Ting-Lu but I think we somewhat jumped the gun on putting this guy in tier 2 last time, 3 feels much more fitting imo.

Madaraaaa: T3. Difficult to put in work now, but I still respect the quality to boost the def/spatk relatively easily if well supported (with tera that resists ground first of all) and played can become hard to kill.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Very annoying mon but usually requires too much support to actually get going. Lando-I matchup remains its biggest issue, but it also really doesn’t like seeing hail, chi yu, etc etc

SMB: Tier 3, it’s harder to make it work due to its speed tier and people learning how to play vs it, lando being more popular and most teams having anti set up tools

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Archaludon requires so much support to be very effective and people are both prepared for it and know how to play around it. Rain, which unlocks Electro Shot for it, is in a very tough spot, outside of which Archaludon is slow and very reliant on Body Press for damage. In addition to struggling against other weathers stopping Electro Shot, Archaludon struggles against common Pokemon like Landorus, Chien-Pao, and Gholdengo, with disruption moves and Pokemon with tera types resistant to Body Press also causing problems for it. For a Pokemon that requires a lot of building around, Archaludon does too little too often, and even within the realm of setup Pokemon is not that great compared to better, less passive options.

Zee: T3. I think Archaludon is generally one of the harder Pokemon in the tier to stop if it is allowed to get going, but getting to that point just takes a lot of effort. If used with Tornadus it’s looking at needing likely two turns of support with Rain Dance + Tailwind, and most people don’t really want to have to run Pelipper.

4 -> 3

reasoning

Actuarily: Tier 3, the speed boost with protosynthesis when combined with Gouging Fire’s bulk and typing allows it to usually get off multiple howls to boost it & a partner’s attack. Beyond that, burning bulwark is a pretty insane move, that limits a lot opposing fake out counterplay. The main thing holding this back is the prevalence of Torn + Lando/Glimmora teams really limiting Gouging Fire’s ability to set up.

Akaru Kokuyo: T4. Pre-Hazard meta I think this was a T3 mon, now not so much. It struggles a bit too much into a lot of the common archetypes and teams, and isn’t that strong of an attacker even if at +1. Used to be very good at just clicking Howl, now you have to think twice since you can get behind if you do so. Current meta state is just not friendly to it.

Bage1: 4. It has great bulk and a solid typing which lets it sit on the field clicking Howl a lot, but it becomes much less useful if ever forced to switch out and lose its speed boost, which can make positioning with it quite awkward. And while its typing is good against many physical attackers, mons like Glimmora or Lando-I threaten it hard. Additionally, Gouging Fire really only fits on one composition that can have some suspect matchup vs stuff like Iron Defense Body Press pokemon or HO with the aforementioned Glimmora/Landoi.

Eragon11145: 3. A solid mon, capable of providing attack boosts for various physical attackers. Howl from Gouging is the best support for these mons available as Coaching doesn’t see much use since it’s pretty much confined to Mew + several other fringe mythicals. Further, Gouging has seen increased usage when paired with Ting-Lu as one of the defining mons on that archetype. Can still pair with mons like Pao or Wellspring on more offensive teams. The newerish pairing with Ting-Lu has seen enough use that it warrants a rise imo.

Madaraaaa: T4. I think exist at least 3-4 fire type better than gouging. Boosting ting lu/rilla/pao/dnite/ogerpon/gambit is cool but requires turns and generally is easy to predict and counter that strategy… generally you want chi yu, fire pon for immediate damages or inci for support in a team, I think gouging can’t do well neither.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Kind of fell off a bit near the end of derby with more firepon usage as a competing fast fire with more immediate threatening, but still definitely provides decent value as a consistent and safe utility mon.

SMB: tier 4, there a couple of teams where it feels nice but I feel like most teams where I see it other thing would do better, faces a lot of competition with other dragon and fire types and sometimes it’s too passive

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Gouging Fire was the 11th most common Pokemon in regular season of Derby, placing it solidly on the level of Tier 3 Pokemon. Howl + phys spam is a serious archetype, and Gouging Fire is a defining part of it. Defensively Gouging Fire has a pretty nice defensive typing and stats which mean outside of Landorus it’s typically not that heavily threatened, helping it survive several turns on the field. It’s also one of two actually good Pokemon with access to Booster Energy Speed, so outside of running into Iron Crown only needs to worry about a rare Choice Scarf user or Walking Wake in Sun outspeeding it,, meaning you can Howl before your partner attacks, Breaking Swipe before the opponent attacks (further helping your survivability), and after a Howl or two actually start threatening things yourself (e.g. +1 Heat Crash with Sword of Ruin will KO Landorus before it can hit you). Gouging Fire does of course have weaknesses like Tailwind or its predictability, but with the addition of Ting Lu as an option, I think Howl/Gouging Fire teams are solid enough for the enabling Pokemon to be represented in Tier 3.

Zee: Tier 4. It’s a very bulky Pokemon and decent for setup/disruption but I generally think it never gets as much accomplished in a single game as it would like. The Howl team archetypes have fallen off pretty hard in the metagame and I think it’s just because there are other team archetypes that feel way more broken to use than something where you sacrifice your turn just to swing with one other guy at +1.

4 -> 3

reasoning

Actuarily: T4, psyspam is just okay, and this thing often needs turns to set up calm minds to hit like it really wants to, or it must have booster energy boosting spa, at which point it sits at a middling speed tier. Feels like it’s often really hoping for a good matchup, which there aren’t that many.

Akaru Kokuyo: T4. Only good team with this mon is ESM sample team. Weird Speed bench which forces you to run Energy Booster which forces you to substract SpA and condition when you’re getting this thing switched in. I just don’t think Expanding Force spam is good outside of the Hard Trick Room teams we’ve been getting, and Expanding Force spam is kinda the only thing Crown is good at (But not at Trick Room).

Bage1: 4. ESM’s success with the speed booster CM set definitely shows how threatening Iron Crown can be, but it has a pretty polarizing matchup spread and gets walled by a decent amount of common pokemon such as Incineroar and Ting Lu. But without a booster energy is way too vulnerable to pokemon like Ogerpon and Landoi, and with speed booster it needs cm to be threatening. It's too limited in its use case and matchups to be higher than 4 but its definitely a mon that needs to be respected.

Eragon11145: 4. Good mon but held back by generally linear team compositions. Booster + cm is still something you need to have answers for but it doesn’t match up well into the Ting-Lu archetype and Lando can often offensively check it with the right support. There’s just several negative interactions which hold it back from consistently reaching its ceiling, which is admittedly quite high imo. I’m pretty sure this mon could be rated higher but based on what I’ve seen currently I think 4 is a better fit, albeit towards the top of 4 (it’s much better than some of the other mons.

Madaraaaa: T4. Same as gouging, difficult to make it work, even after cm boost is a zero vs inci/kingambit/gholdengo/ting lu, and psy spam is not so good right now (apart full trickroom teams).

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. Definitely a very scary mon if given momentum, but steel/psychic really isn’t a great stab combo, often forcing iron crown to depend on teammates to muscle past some mons or running risky lure sets itself. Kind of has the same issue gouging fire has where booster speed boost makes it a solid mon initially, but then it’s stuck making the most of its first entrance because it’s a lot less effective once it loses the speed boost.

SMB: Tier 4, I’ve been experimenting a bit with psypsam lately and it really needs a lot of support to put work (terrain, follow me, speed control), and even if it gets that it’s just alright most of the times. Also walled by a lot of stuff if it doesn’t tera and run tera blast

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Iron Crown has some notable flaws but the emergence of the ESM sample team, and the rise of Calm Mind have swayed me on it. Booster Energy Speed lets Iron Crown outspeed everything bar a rare Choice Scarf user, even the other Pokemon with access to it in Gouging Fire, while the ability to KO Pokemon like Chien-Pao or Glimmora through Focus Sash is quite neat. Calm Mind really elevates the damage output though, as an unboosted Iron Crown is a bit lacking in firepower, but even one boost can be the difference, while not being too difficult to achieve, especially as Indeedee-F is automatically available for redirection (and to Helping Hand onto Expanding Force which can often clean up teams without a Dark-type left). Yes the matchup into certain Pokemon like Kingambit or Ting Lu obviously leaves a lot to be desired, but the PsySpam duo are a strong threat to be used and respected. I think the “one team” argument is being slightly overstated, considering how solid that team is and how viable other builds are as well (e.g. see SMB in Seasonal), in Derby Iron Crown has also seen similar or even higher usage to other Pokemon being voted into Tier 3 like Farigiraf, Kyurem, or Regidrago. Iron Crown fits the bill of requiring a decent amount of support/a specific team style to function, but being a defining piece to the archetype, PsySpam is a serious deal right now.

Zee: Tier 4. I think Iron Crown is probably the best mon I’d put in tier 4 but it has so many limitations holding it back, Psychic/Steel isn’t a particularly strong offensive combo so you either run Tera Blast and lack increased damage output or run Calm Mind and get walled by Pokemon like Incineroar, Chi-Yu, Kingambit, and Gholdengo. Has to play terrain wars with Rillaboom which is never fun. Needs very specific supports which I do think limits the ceiling of actual Iron Crown teams.

4 -> 3

reasoning

Actuarily: T4, like I said psyspam is just okay, and Farigiraf can do a lot of the same things on teams not needing psyspam. While obviously follow me is fantastic, the poor defensive typing often means it’s only surviving one turn of being double targeted.

Akaru Kokuyo: T4. Same argument for Crown but adapted to this. Only good team with Deedee is that Hard Trick Room one, and only because it gets Psy Terrain up. No reason to use this for anything else since other Pokémon outclass it.

Bage1: 4. As others have mentioned, its often outclassed in its utility by pokemon such as Farigiraf (for prio blocking) or Ogerpon (for redirection). Its bulk is pretty underwhelming and it struggles to stay on the field. Unless you specifically want to lean into psyspam (an ok but not overwhelming strategy) there really isn’t much of a reason to use Indeedee.

Eragon11145: 4. Putting this in the same tier as Crown since I think the two should probably be together. A decent support mon with the ability to block priority + redirection, but on non-psyspam teams there’s often a better option to fulfill those roles (such as Ogerpon or Farigiraf). Also doesn’t really hold up too great into a lot of the top offensive mons, who don’t struggle to easily knock it out.

Madaraaaa: T4. Same as Crown, but is a little better if used with hoopa/hatterene in my opinion. But now psyspam is not that strong, steel, dark pokemons and rillaboom are dominant.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. Most of indeedee usage comes either from iron crown teams or from fullroom matchup fish teams, and in neither do I think it’s effective enough to warrant tier 3. Outside iron crown psyspam it’s hard to justify using this over farigiraf, especially when there’s so much value in being able to use your own priority attacks right now.

SMB: Tier 4, psyspam is decent but nothing close to great. Indeedee is there just to enable expanding force users so being ranked the same than iron crown makes sense

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Indeedee-F has an even stronger argument to be Tier 3 than Iron Crown as a required enabler, while also seeing independent use on the niche but still existent FullRoom teams. In regular season of Derby Indeedee-F was 13th in usage and used more than Farigiraf, the closest comparison and currently being voted into Tier 3 based on supporting a rising archetype despite not being that strong itself outside of blocking priority and using/stopping Trick Room. On paper the trade-off is less reliable priority blocking for the benefit of access to Follow Me and unlocking Iron Crown, which is a reasonable trade-off and the usage in practice backs this up, putting Indeedee-F a tier below Farigiraf despite being used more would be wild to me.

Zee: 4. Should be ranked the same as Iron Crown imo. Has to play terrain wars, is outclassed by other Follow Me users, and arguably outclassed by other Trick Room setters as well.

3 -> 4

reasoning

Actuarily: T4, Yoda nailed it, there’s just a lot that takes advantage of Amoonguss right now between sub Lando, tera grass mons, goggles mons, follow me ogerpons, Tornadus, Gholdengo, etc. It really seems to want to use Amoonguss right now you need it to patch up specific matchups (it does have some good ones, like Iron Hands/Archaludon/Raging bolt, etc.) as opposed to just using as a general redirector + TR check.

Akaru Kokuyo: T4. 200% agree with Yoda post. Not much I can add tbh.

Bage1: 4. I’ve been one of Amoonguss’s strongest supporters for a while but I can’t deny that the format is more hostile to the pokemon than it has been all generation. Yoda covered just about everything, most good teams include more than enough Amoonguss counterplay without even needing to think about it.

Eragon11145: 4. As Act and Yoda have noted, there’s LOTS of counterplay to this mon this generation and it matches up poorly into many of the top mons. It’s like barely even a top 5 grass type, which severely limits its splashability. Don’t have too much to say here, pretty much entirely agree with Yoda’s points on how easily counterplay fits on teams, even with 0 effort in the builder. Access to pollen puff is still kind of nice and it can still be used to support setup mons like Goltres but even then Sinistcha often is a better fit. Overall just feels very middling and ill-suited to the metagame.

Madaraaaa: T4. Outclassed by other grass pokemons, I agree with eragon here.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. I think smb has a point where it’s definitely worth looking at some more with how a lot of mons that otherwise might run sleep immune items just completely forego it right now. Having said that, the meta is more unfavorable than ever for amoong with a ton of torn, waterpon, firepon, gholdengo, sub lando, chien pao etc seeing consistent high usage. Feels like amoong would be best on some kind of TR team to make use of fast spores, but it seems super awkward to fit.

SMB: tier 3, it definitely doesn’t have a good matchup vs most of the top tier threats but tier 4 is too low considering most teams barely prep for it. It can force switches, teras, and if it doesn’t get to spore it still has pollen puff so the opponent has to focus on it. Being a tspikes absorber is very underrated as well.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Let the Amoonguss hate grow, this thing has been overrated for a long time. Out of the four best Pokemon in the tier, one hits it super effectively and has Taunt, one can freely sub on it, and the other two can ignore it and hit its partner (oh, and one of those can also redirect Spores if it wants to). Forget running Safety Goggles, even thinking “oh I need Tera Grass for Amoonguss” is giving it too much respect these days. Gholdengo eats it for breakfast, Fire-types dunk on it, and Chien-Pao or snow teams also prey on Amoonguss. On top of its problems with being slow and passive, and struggling to successfully connect a Spore, there’s also the strongest competition as a redirector there’s ever been outside of Jirachi. Ogerpon-Wellspring gets the stronger (especially in this meta) redirection move Follow Me, while also being a top offensive threat in its own right, amplifying Amoonguss’ passivity problems. Even if you’re looking for a bulkier, dedicated redirector, then Indeedee-F gets Follow Me as well as having terrain support and access to Trick Room, while Sinistcha has the most similar kit to Amoonguss, but gets Trick Room to make use of its low Speed, and its ability lets you heal the Pokemon you want to support by switching rather than the supporter itself. Outside of facing a Trick Room team or committing Tera to get a Spore off (rarely worth it), Amoonguss is just a poor redirector that not only can you invalidate in the builder, you don’t even need to actively do so.

Zee: Tier 3. I am not falling for anti Amoonguss propaganda, Spore is still the most broken move in the game and most people’s matchups into Amoonguss seem to consistent of shaky checks like Follow Me Ogerpons, double Grass, or just saying they’ll taunt it or pin it before it can Spore. Pollen Puff is still a busted support option as well.

3 -> 4

reasoning

Actuarily: T3. While it has been overshadowed some by Lando + Incin cores, Lando-T still has a lot of merits combining the roles of those two into one slot, as an intimidate mon that can also dish out big damage. Scarf is probably its best set, but sets like CB or bulky sets also have room in the meta. The biggest downside is that you’d generally prefer your ground mon to be a special attacker to help out with Archaludon, but Lando-T can still run special ground moves if needed.

Akaru Kokuyo: T3. Not running the best Pokémon in the meta can seem like inting at first glance, but it can still do great work thanks to Intimidate. Bulky set is probably the worst set right now, but both Scarf & Band are pretty good and can do amazing at pivoting and conditioning some turns, especially vs stuff that don’t want to be touched like Chien-Pao, Ogerpon, etc.

Bage1: 4. Lando-t feels entirely outclassed by Incin as an intimidator as it often struggles to actually switch into the game. It suffers from Lando-I being so popular both because running Lando-t means you can't run Lando-i and because it also has to deal with all of the counterplay teams bring for Lando-i. Support sets can’t really stay on the board very long vs all of the Hail/Ogerpons, Chien Pao, or HO with threats like Bloodmoon or Regidrago. Scarf or Band seem more viable but Scarf struggles to be an actual offensive threat while Band is very reliant on speed control (and often probably wants to be a Lando-i anyways at that point).

Eragon11145: 3. Agree with Act here, this mons typing is still pretty nice and it’s a clear #2 intimidate option behind the obvious Incineroar. Lando-T has a lot of set variety been rocks/taunt support (which can somewhat farm the Ting-Lu archetype almost by itself), scarf, band, and even nicher options like Clear Amulet that I still think have use. This all means it’s not too difficult for it to fit on teams that aren’t running Lando-I, and Lando-I often doesn’t have a great way to hit it too. It’s not quite at the strength it was at in the DLC-1 metagame where it was dominant but it still absolutely has its place and I prefer to rank it in T3 rather than T4 for that reason.

Madaraaaa: T4. Overall is solid, lando i is obviously better but intimidate+ good bulk + rocks are still decent. Scarf and band can be okay in chien pao or semiroom teams. There are many ice moves that threaten it and to be locked in one move is not the best. Phisical damages are also mitigated by incineroar that is tier 1.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4, scarf is more or less the only consistently good set right now, and even that feels really iffy when a majority of the stuff it wants to intimidate still beats it after the attack drop (chien pao, waterpon, firepon, bax). Meanwhile gouging fire just negates its attack drops often while also usually being paired with intim-immune phys attackers that benefit from seeing lando-t.

SMB: Tier 4, scarf is decent in some bulky teams that appreciate intimidate but it’s hard to find the place for it on some other teams, part of the reason is the opportunity cost of not running the best special attacker.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Landorus-Incarnate is miles clear of Landorus-Therian, Choice Band is just a worse attacker, and while Choice Scarf Landorus-T can U-Turn Ogerpon-Wellspring (as Tera Flying Blast is quite costly) and Chien-Pao, Landorus-I has the option to run Choice Scarf as well and is a pretty good user of it, with the Speed tier actually being important as well for some stuff like Booster Energy Iron Crown or Choice Scarf Chi-Yu and Sandsear Storm being a strong spread option. Intimidate is nice on paper, but just like I said for Incineroar, most physical attackers are either immune or hit Landorus-T super effectively. Incineroar is a far better Intimidate user, and Intimidate is a weak reason to use Landorus-T over the much better forme, relegating the once omnipresent Pokemon to a niche role only really fitting teams that need the specific role compression it offers (but using a combination of the good Pokemon is usually just better).

Zee: Tier 4. Agree that there’s just not a lot of demand for what Landorus-T does when it comes at the cost of dropping Landorus-I which is the best special attacker in the tier. Incineroar does the whole Intimidate pivot job well enough.

3 -> 4

reasoning

Actuarily: T3, still can absolutely win games, but has a few dire matchups with top threats (Landorus/Gholdengo/Archaludon) that must be addressed in the builder. But if you’re able to play around those threats & get a defense boost, Diancie can just run over much of the rest of the tier.

Akaru Kokuyo: T3. Barely makes it out of T4 imo, and that’s only because the snowball potential it can create if it gets Def boost. It has some very big flaws, like being weak to a lot of common moves and Pokémon, forcing it to Tera very often. Also, a lot of times your win-plan is getting boosts from Diamond Storm, but if you don’t get them you’re in a dire spot. But the same applies to the other side; if you DO get the boosts, you can start firing extremely powerful Body Press than can even force some Teras out. Still, I think it has more cons than pros, but pros are just good enough to get it to T3.

Bage1: 4. As others have said, its poor typing forces it into being extremely tera-hungry and it has so many poor matchups that it is mostly relegated to Fullroom with some sort of prio blocking on it. Even in positive matchups Diancie is often reliant on staying on the field for a very long time and getting defense boosts to make significant progress.

Eragon11145: 4. While Diancie is still able to farm matchups where teams struggle to break it, there are far more teams in this metagame that easily handle it than we’ve seen before. As Yoda said, it really struggles to deal with the Lando-I, Rilla and Wellspring running around and has several other less common mons that it also really hates to face (Gholdengo basically completely invalidates it lol). Additionally, its use as a TR setter is somewhat limited since on teams that aren’t using Full TR another setter like Farigiraf often feels better due to greater flexibility. This is very bad for Diancie as Full TR feels like it barely fits in this metagame that has a somewhat common archetype that ALWAYS carries phasing. Just lots of bad matchups for this mon and the upsides just aren’t quite high enough to compensate, Tier 4 is the best fit I think.

Madaraaaa: T4. Needs to tera to setup trickroom most of the times, suffers too many popular and strong pokemons.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4, hard to justify right now with how much stuff hits this SE or chunks it for good neutral damage. Hail’s defense boost particularly hurts diancie as even kyurem can often just sit in front of diancie and tank diamond storms while chunking it down with blizzard/EP or outright KOing it with flash cannon.

SMB: Tier 4, very tera hungry, sometimes fails to accomplish anything in trick room and it’s also more difficult to set trick room with it than with another pokemon

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Outside of the obviously good matchup into Tornadus itself, Diancie is weak to all of the other most common Pokemon in Landorus, Rillaboom, and Ogerpon-Wellspring. As if that wasn’t enough, other common Pokemon like Gholdengo, Kingambit, and Ogerpon-Hearthflame also threaten Diancie with their STABs, and even Pokemon like Kyurem or Dragonite will be carrying coverage capable of hitting it. So if Diancie wants to set Trick Room it practically requires hogging Tera, but even then Diancie will still be vulnerable to something no matter what type it becomes. After completing the mighty task of getting Trick Room up the problems don’t end either, as unboosted Diamond Storm isn’t very threatening and getting the boosts to make Body Press threatening is slow. As a result, Diancie is not very good at getting Trick Room up and not great with it up either. Diancie is a niche TR setter option, Farigiraf, Indeedee-F, and Sinistcha are all better, being less easily OHKOed by portions of the meta, and offering other utility such as priority blocking, terrain support, and redirection.

Zee: Tier 4, has a lot of matchups that just really suck for it which forces it to Tera and burn the resource from other Pokemon. Generally isn’t explosive enough to just win games on the spot by clicking Trick Room, and it is pretty difficult to build around or fit onto existing metagame compositions.

 

[Schister]

UR -> T5

*sigh* Mochi Mochi

Eragon vs Logice
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2180732693

Eragon vs EternalSnowman
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2173590247
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2173586485?p2

Ratpacker vs Charmdi
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-784582?p2

 

[Lemurro]

UR -> T4
A fairly obvious nomination. Okidogi has seen consistent tournament usage over the last few months due to its very useful typing, access to upper hand, and pseudo-defiant ability. It fits on the Priority Spam, Psyspam, and Hail Semiroom archetypes and may be found to fit on even more in the future. I think everyone has probably seen a replay or two of Okidogi by now but I've also added a few since it is an UR. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-783893
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-790848
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-793181

T3 -> T4
While an extremely strong Pokemon in a vacuum, Porygon2 is badly positioned in the current metagame. Most teams looking for a Pocket TR mode opt for Pokemon such as Sinistcha and Farigiraf who offer utility outside of settting Trick Room. Porygon2 also does not fit on Hard Trick Room teams as those teams prefer more offensively threatening Trick Room setters such as Diancie and Hatterene. Speaking of offense, Porygon2's offensive coverage is significantly worse compared to SWSH. Ice Beam is nonnegotiable and after that it has to pick between being able to damage Iron Hands with Tera Blast Fairy or Kingambit and Gholdengo with Thunderbolt. Neither option is great, Tera Blast forces it to hog the tera and Thunderbolt is a 3HKO at best. There are other, lesser-used options such as Foul Play or a different Tera Blast type but these suffer from similar problems.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-793600
While I was writing this an SCL game occurred which demonstrates the problem with Porygon. In this game Nails's Porygon2 easily tanks a Helping Hand Expanding Force and manages to set up Trick Room fairly comfortably but after the Trick Room goes up it does very little damage and is outslowed and killed by a Tera Fire Eruption. Nails wasn't even able to stall a turn because P2 doesn't have a free move slot for Protect.

 

[ratpacker]

Meta is great, pls don't touch

Tier 1:
Insane offensive presence with one very flexible moveslot
Insane offensive presence that doubles as an enabler and as terrain removal
Swiss-army knife Pokemon that pairs extremely well with the best tier 2s

Tier 2:
Fake-Out Boys
This mon is fine
Premier setup option

Tier 3: Mons that require specific teammates
Tier 3 by technicality, as Ogerpon-Wellspring exists.


Can't live without his buddy but his buddy is tier 1
Snowy lads
Indecently good with and against Chien Pao

The setup crew (actually they can run anything)
The good Trick Room Pokemon

Calm Mind Thunderclap is garbage
The OG spread move gang

Tier 4:
Weather lads




That one other Trick Room Pokemon








Tier 3 in my heart
Basically Gholdengo that's good into Landorus Chien-Pao



Tier 5:

This tier isn't really relevant right now, you can pretty much make anything else work in this meta at long as it has a niche, you could even make a case for Skarmory as a Tailwind setter with Stealth Rocks. Aside from Orthworm, nothing here is worth considering when thinking about matchups for your team.

Special mentions :
The best Coaching option out there
you suck

 

[Flying Beagle]

metagame is great pls don't touch,
also have a tier list that's way worse than the one above

Tier 1:
my first of many hot takes. this mon is nuts. really appreciates all the pao hype. use boots, any other item is a throw
less necessary (and more exploitable) than it was a lil while ago, but still a really solid blanket check to a lot of stuff in the metagame. rocks is a really nice set
not banworthy, and not impossible to exploit by any stretch, but tw is still nutso and bleakwind is awesome when you hit :))

Tier 1.5:
not tier 1 because hearthflame is jesus and tragically you can only run one. a little tera reliant but super solid, checks a lot of the important things.
2nd best fake out mon. rly nice into lando and wellspring and stuff. terrain is super nice.
i don't rate this guy as a standalone mon as highly as some would, but its team support is undeniable.
bonk. this mon is so good you guys, please use this on all your pao teams, please do not use that bum gouging fire.

Tier 2:
free tspike is nutso, and this mon also just has weirdly good offensive and defensive presence. rly good into paonite, rly good into incin. very solid mon
faces competition from okidogi of all things, but still rly good catch all check to a lot of things. sd clam is really nice too (my condolences to nails)
we have it so good in sv right? like, we have a prio blocker that's actually a good mon. isn't that nuts? isn't that wild?
if you're surprised to see it this high you're probably using it on trick room. this is a ludicrously good tw mon. use life orb, don't use throat spray, don't use any weird shit
kinda just beats all the bullshit. rly nice mon on balance. hazards are really good.
the best way to run pao. this mon is really insane. don't use entei

Tier 3:
very good on balance
kinda fell off low key, choiced sets are nice tho
very solid tw option
tier 3 in my heart... and in my tier list. really good, beats everything, absorbs tspike.
snowy lads
picked up a bit in scl, and for good reason i think? not bad, faces competition as a bulky grass tho
unfortunately indeedee is a terrible pokemon but this archetype is still pretty good
is and always will be a matchup fish, but it's a pretty good one at the moment!
good cheese mon partner
fell off a lot i think, pretty awkward to run
^
ugh
:))

Tier 4:
nice ogerpon option if you're a lil spicy, a lil out there
i lost to this little shit in swiss so it's going here. actually a pretty good mon just ugh

life hack: if you're ever gonna use this mon, use firepon instead, trust
tier 1 if your name is eternalsnowman
still dangerous on trick room
probably not bad actually. run ice beam and a shit ton of special attack
booster speed howl is complete shit. if clam dd takes off i'll move this up
cheese mon no 1
beast
much better on paper than in practice but it has nice tools

stick to vgc buddy
cheese mon no 2
cheese mon no 3
good specifically on my gmolt team (or ratpacker's team with the same 6, actually yeah use that one instead)
^
best sun setter, uh do people still use this archetype?



Tier 5:
USE DNITE
no man

fuck you
use torn
lmao
cheese mon no 4
probably fine



uh yeah i've run out of mons i care to talk about, have a nice day!

 

[Schister]

UR -> T5
Has a solid spot on a Sand Team that's been getting run for months, don't know who originated the team but it's been consistently usable through multiple tournaments this year and Houndstone's place on the team is very solid. Has seen use on a few other sand structures too.

T3 -> T2
Teams around this guy have greatly improved and have resulted in Arch beign spammed all over SCL and DWCOP

T1 -> T2
T1 -> T2
I think the fake out guys belong with hands in tier 2, each being capable of doing their own thing and fitting on particular teams decently, with rillaboom especially being less impressive to me in recent months than the other tier 1s

T2 -> T1
You can run this guy on any structure and it will get value.

T3 -> T2
This pokemon is disgustingly good with archaludon, has near-perfect typing and support synergy with Incineroar, and offers disgusting amounts of role compression in team healing, redirection, trick room support even a little bit of Calm mind usage on the fringe to deal damage

T5 -> T4
Has found a proper home on rain teams while still being more than capable of cheesing wins with the scarf set on structures that can deal with the priority spammers it hates

UR -> T5
I am obviously heavily biased towards this pokemon but with a typing that walls chien pao, punishes incineroar and Harcanine, strong STABs that threaten arch before and after common teras, the ability to outspeed and OHKO Landorus and a variety of options such as calm mind muddy water, icy wind coaching support, and Specs this pokemon has time and again impressed me in the format due to the sheer amount of metagame threats it can take on and the value of being a water type that doesn't lose to snow or pao

 

[qsns]

Tier 2 -> Tier 1

Extremely high usage, the most winningest players are currently using it in SCL. Absolutely sufficient next to the 50% usage Ogerpon-Wellspring as its only partner, and most teams have another between Rillaboom/Hands/Hearthflame/Dragapult/DNite.

Tier 2 -> Tier 3

Higher risk, higher reward Gholdengo. There are matchups it absolutely farms but is forced to Tera much, much more often into the influx of Archaludon and Chien-Pao teams in the recent metagame. Is not significantly better as an "anti-balance steel" to deserve Tier 2.

Tier 4 -> Tier 3

Rain good. It's mostly being carried by Archaludon but the manual rain builds have mostly been cast aside for Drizzle setting. There are too many moving parts between Rain, speed control, and protecting your Archaludon in such an offensive metagame for manual rain builds to thrive.

Tier 4 -> Tier 3

I am not a personal fan of the Howl archetype but Gouging Fire is clearly the anchor point of a highly used strategy. Though it has its shaky matchups (Diancie, Archaludon), it can perform well into the rest of the metagame and is able to adapt with Pokemon like Ting-Lu.

^addendum, I don't think Ting-Lu is great and there are better ways to cope with Lando-I/Arch/Diancie in the builder if you have the room. It is not deserving of a drop or anything but Tier 4 seems accurate for a more niche option on physical offense structures.

Tier 4 -> Tier 3

Usage matching Pokemon like Glimmora, has done fine for itself recently. Probably a worse option than Sinistcha on most bulkier teams but utterly bodies Archaludon and Semi TR builds with P2, which can be tough matchups to cover otherwise. Having a Poison-type to absorb Toxic Spikes from Glimmora is also necessary on fatter teams.

Tier 3 -> Tier 4

Viability fell of a cliff after Derby. The mindset of the tier during that tour was to out ooga-booga your opponent in the Torn mirror, and Regidrago could often take 1-2 kills if positioned correctly. Current philosophy is to use Chien-Pao surrounded by other balance staples & your own speed control to beat HO, and Drago performs very poorly after taking a Sucker Punch to the face.

fwiw I think this is the most accurate VR I've ever seen in a current gen. things looking good

 

[SuckyLucky]

4 –> 3

Choice scarf is very good. U-turn for momentum, access to super powerful Flying Tera Blast (or fighting, steel, whatever your team needs), and Rock Slide for flinches. Doesn’t even need that much attack and speed investment to OHKO or 2HKO most of the major pokemon in the tier, and the real trick is to add some Sp. Atk investment for a mixed set with Earth Power to ruin things like Incin and the occasional Harc or Duraludon. Isn’t *great* into Paonite ofc unless you have prio denial but not a lot of stuff is.

This gen’s meta is a flat circle.