Rampardos

[alexwolf]

Zweilous doesn't really get much better coverage in OU. Either way it's the Steel types giving you trouble. Also, Rampardos has access to better coverage options. Finally, sure CB Scizor can obliterate it, but it isn't going to like taking a Head Smash on the switch very much. I haven't done the calcs, but I suspect it might even OHKO some variants. As for other priority, Zwelious is just as weak to it. Finally, Zwelious' Outrage is actually much weaker than Rampardos' Head Smash. What Rampardos looses in coverage with Head Smash, it gains in raw power.

While Scizor cannot switch in on Rampardos,it can force it out after it kills something so you have to setup TR again if you want Rampardos to kill anything again.
Zweilous can continuously kill a weakened team without killing itself or dying from priority.
Also the fact that Zweilous is also weak to Mach Punch is kinda mitigated by the fact that it can OHKO Conk while Rampardos cannot.
Of 'course Conkeldur is not going to switch in on any of those pokes but when you do kill something Conk will be there to ruin Rampardos's day since it will very likely Ohko with Mach Punch(you will already have done like 30% of recoil to urself after killing something) forcing you to switch out and setup TR another time.
But Zweilous after killing something can just sit there,stomach the Mach Punch like a chump(414 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (40 Base Power): 204 - 242 (58.62% - 69.54%))and Ohko back with Outrage.

So it is quite clear that Zweilous doesn't even have half the priority problems as Rampardos does.

Also Zweilous has everyhting it really needs to kill the pokes it needs.
Every steel type gets 2hkoed by Fire Fang and everything else gets 2hkoed by Outrage.
Also if you want to just kill everything with Outrage,you can always use Magnezone to help you trap some annoying Steel types.
But you cannot easily trap Rampardos problems because of many factors(Scizor --> U-Turn,Conkeldurr --> Only Wobbuffet can trap him).

Finally the fact that Rampardos has huge attack doesn't mean it is better than Zweilous.
The fact is that Rampardos's attack is just overkill and not needed in most cases.
Zweilous for example hits 663 Attack with CB and Hustle which is all that he needs.
He 2hkoes every non steel type in the tier iirc and 2hkoes even some steel types with it like S.Defensive Jirachi.
Everything that he cannot 2hko with Outrage gets 2hkoed by his coverage moves or is handled by Magnezone.
The only downside it the confusion BUT:
If Outrage lasts 3 turns then you are golden cause TR ends by that time exactly so you would switch out either way.
If Outrage lasts 2 turns then you can just switch out without having lost like 30%-60% of your life to kill 1-2 pokes.

If we are talking about plain CB TR wall breaker-sweeper Zweilous is better since it does the same things as Rampardos except it doesn't fear priority quite as much and he doesn't kill itself in the process.
Again Hustle is not a con only in Zweilous's side since Ramprdos's main move has the same accuracy issue.
And since both of them will be spamming their main moves 90% of the time this means that in the 90% of the situations they will have the same accuracy problem.

Now if you want a Life Orb TR sweeper things are different since the accuracy issue plays a huge role.
Rampardos can use things like Rock Slide to kill every neutral target and use his coverge moves to eliminate resistors.
Zweilous in the other hand will still have the accuracy issue so they are different in this case and i thing that Rampardos wins this one especially with Encourage.

 

[Jimera0]

While Scizor cannot switch in on Rampardos,it can force it out after it kills something so you have to setup TR again if you want Rampardos to kill anything again.
Zweilous can continuously kill a weakened team without killing itself or dying from priority.
Also the fact that Zweilous is also weak to Mach Punch is kinda mitigated by the fact that it can OHKO Conk while Rampardos cannot.
Of 'course Conkeldur is not going to switch in on any of those pokes but when you do kill something Conk will be there to ruin Rampardos's day since it will very likely Ohko with Mach Punch(you will already have done like 30% of recoil to urself after killing something) forcing you to switch out and setup TR another time.
But Zweilous after killing something can just sit there,stomach the Mach Punch like a chump(414 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (40 Base Power): 204 - 242 (58.62% - 69.54%))and Ohko back with Outrage.

So it is quite clear that Zweilous doesn't even have half the priority problems as Rampardos does.

Also Zweilous has everyhting it really needs to kill the pokes it needs.
Every steel type gets 2hkoed by Fire Fang and everything else gets 2hkoed by Outrage.
Also if you want to just kill everything with Outrage,you can always use Magnezone to help you trap some annoying Steel types.
But you cannot easily trap Rampardos problems because of many factors(Scizor --> U-Turn,Conkeldurr --> Only Wobbuffet can trap him).

Finally the fact that Rampardos has huge attack doesn't mean it is better than Zweilous.
The fact is that Rampardos's attack is just overkill and not needed in most cases.
Zweilous for example hits 663 Attack with CB and Hustle which is all that he needs.
He 2hkoes every non steel type in the tier iirc and 2hkoes even some steel types with it like S.Defensive Jirachi.
Everything that he cannot 2hko with Outrage gets 2hkoed by his coverage moves or is handled by Magnezone.
The only downside it the confusion BUT:
If Outrage lasts 3 turns then you are golden cause TR ends by that time exactly so you would switch out either way.
If Outrage lasts 2 turns then you can just switch out without having lost like 30%-60% of your life to kill 1-2 pokes.

If we are talking about plain CB TR wall breaker-sweeper Zweilous is better since it does the same things as Rampardos except it doesn't fear priority quite as much and he doesn't kill itself in the process.
Again Hustle is not a con only in Zweilous's side since Ramprdos's main move has the same accuracy issue.
And since both of them will be spamming their main moves 90% of the time this means that in the 90% of the situations they will have the same accuracy problem.

Now if you want a Life Orb TR sweeper things are different since the accuracy issue plays a huge role.
Rampardos can use things like Rock Slide to kill every neutral target and use his coverge moves to eliminate resistors.
Zweilous in the other hand will still have the accuracy issue so they are different in this case and i thing that Rampardos wins this one especially with Encourage.

I wasn't saying Rampardos is better than Zweilous, I was saying that it's not outclassed. Zweilous is probably better at sweeping under trick room when Banded, but I still maintain that Rampardos is better at wall breaking. The purpose of Choice Band Rampardos on a Trick Room team isn't to sweep, it's to break down the wall so that other things can sweep. It doesn't give a damn that it only lasts for one Pokemon, because that's all it needs to last for. Zwellious relies more on coverage moves because of its lower power to take on wall, so if you mis-predict you're kind of screwed, where as Rampardos is going to smash everything but Ferrothorn and Hippowdon pretty much, so it's easy as hell to predict who they're switching to.

All this asside though, I'm starting to think that these two would actually make spectucular teammates for each-other, similar to the way Landorus and Excadrill used to work. Since they have pretty much the same checks and counters, one can come in and weaken them, then the other comes in and blows everything to smitherines.

 

[2sly4u]

Really, it can still 2HKO Skarmory you think? Well I suppose that is a big difference... but still, you'd need to predict with Ferrothorn.

It does seem that you have a point with using it with scarf. The ability to both break down walls and revenge is potent indeed. The issue I have with it though is that it can't revenge a lot of things faster scarfers can. For instance, anything that nets a speed boost is going to outspeed and KO Rampardos (for instance, Dragon dancers, base 115+s) Or anything with a super effective prioirty (Lucario, Metagross, Scizor) is going to be impossible for it to revenge kill, where as something like Haxorus will be able to take those out. Still, it does have its merrits.

Oh, I totally agree with everything here. Haxorus is almost always the better choice for a wall-breaking scarf user. However, if you have a way to handle Scizor, and flying-types, Rampardos' raw power on Earthquake makes him more appealing. On that note, Magnezone would make a fantastic teammate, since he can handle both of those threats.

When I say Rampardos can revenge kill, I more meant in a pinch; his primary role should always be to break walls, perhaps scoring a surprise revenge kill on things like Gengar every now and them.

 

[Penance]

This thing is terrible. Awful stats, bad typing when paired up with his fragility and slowness. Anything kills this trash.

 

[Jimera0]

I always giggle a little when people talk as Rampardos is the frailest thing ever but at the same time they consider low defenses are an aftertought when it comes to other pokemon. Are you high or what.

Last time I checked 97/60/50 defenses, especially with Sandstorm boost, are superior to Alakazam, Darmanitan, Sharpedo and Infernape's just to name a few other glass cannons.

Of course I'm not saying that's something to be proud of, but please let's stop pretending that Rampardos is unusable because it can't take a hit, because thins thing forces switches and most lkiely kills something on the switch.

It just can't sweep without Trick Room, but that doesn't mean that it can't do its job.
The calculations on the previous page speak for themselves.
Conkeldurr? Dies to Zen Headbutt. Scizor? Dies to Fire Blast.
There is absolutely nothing in the game that can safely switch into a Head Smash/Zen Headbutt/Fire Blast/Earthquake or Ice Beam set. This makes Rampardos more than viable.

In short, Rampardos is a Trick Room version of Deoxys-A. It's hard to use, but it's extremely powerful in the right hands. And even without TR, it can still kill stuff very easily.

Well I wouldn't say it's Trick Room Deoxys-A lol, seeing as Deoxys-A is frailer and actually faster out of trick room than Rampardos is in it (gen 5 added a pretty large number of very viable Pokemon with ridiculously low speeds), and seeing as Deoxys-A can hit both sides of the spectrum just as hard, and doesn't KO itself with recoil damage.

And looking at those Pokemon you have listed as comparisons, most of them are overall about the same defensively as Rampardos and are known for that... only they all have workable or outstanding speed.

But of course, I agree that it can be useful in certain circumstances, as we've already been discussing. It hits harder than anything else in the entire metagame outside of Ubers does it not?

And just ignore Penance, he's been trolling several of these threads with comments along the lines of "This Pokemon sucks because it sucks trollolololol"

 

[Spork]

Sheer Force gives Rampardos a reason to actually run Ice Beam. Even without invesetment it's a surefire OHKO on Gliscor with Life Orb and an easy 2HKO on Tangrowth, and if you're using Rampardos asa SmashPass recipient, it really is quite powerful in its wallbreaking ability. You could even use Flamethrower as well.

Its special movepool really does have some utility.

 

[Lee]

As a plain TR CBer Zweilous is better imo.it may have like 15 less base attack but:
1.dragon is a better offensive type than rock
2.Zweilous doesn't die from BP Scizor which is everywhere
3.Zweilous doesn't have to kill itself to dent the opponent.

1) Dragon isn't neccesarily a better offensive type in this instance because Rampardos honestly couldn't give a fuck if the opponent resists Head Smash.

vs 252/40 Ferrothorn = 51%-61%
vs 252/0 Jirachi = 59%-70%
vs 120/0 Conkeldurr = 65%-77%
vs 4/0 Terrakion = 81%-95%
vs 252/0 Gastrodon = 77%-91%
vs 4/0 Magnezone = 75%-89%
vs 4/0 Breloom = 110%-130%

those are the most common Rock-resists in OU and they all get 2HKO'd at best whereas Zwell fails to 2HKO a lot of Steels with his Outrage (for example, the same Ferrothorn spread takes 39% - 46%) and 252/0 Jirachi is never 2HKO'd after Leftovers.

2) Scizor arguably does even better against Zwell because it can actually switch in (loses an avg of 57%) and deal an avg of just under 70% with CB Bullet Punch. In many situations that will be more useful than simply being able to revenge kill.

3) Locking yourself into an attack for 2-3 turns and then confusing yourself is arguably every bit as self-destructive as 50% recoil damage. Also worth noting that Rampardos has a very health 398 HP to burn on recoil damage.

also throwing in my own point - Druddigon is a far better CB TR abuser than Zweilous due to far better bulk and not having to rely on Hustle for power.

 

[2sly4u]

1) Dragon isn't neccesarily a better offensive type in this instance because Rampardos honestly couldn't give a fuck if the opponent resists Head Smash.

vs 252/40 Ferrothorn = 51%-61%
vs 252/0 Jirachi = 59%-70%
vs 120/0 Conkeldurr = 65%-77%
vs 4/0 Terrakion = 81%-95%
vs 252/0 Gastrodon = 77%-91%
vs 4/0 Magnezone = 75%-89%
vs 4/0 Breloom = 110%-130%

those are the most common Rock-resists in OU and they all get 2HKO'd at best whereas Zwell fails to 2HKO a lot of Steels with his Outrage (for example, the same Ferrothorn spread takes 39% - 46%) and 252/0 Jirachi is never 2HKO'd after Leftovers.

2) Scizor arguably does even better against Zwell because it can actually switch in (loses an avg of 57%) and deal an avg of just under 70% with CB Bullet Punch. In many situations that will be more useful than simply being able to revenge kill.

3) Locking yourself into an attack for 2-3 turns and then confusing yourself is arguably every bit as self-destructive as 50% recoil damage. Also worth noting that Rampardos has a very health 398 HP to burn on recoil damage.

also throwing in my own point - Druddigon is a far better CB TR abuser than Zweilous due to far better bulk and not having to rely on Hustle for power.

This. Just, everything written right here.

Also, does anyone think a Rock Polish set could work outside of TR? When not using it, everyone expects a choiced variant. Rock Polish gives you a decent amount of speed, and his power doesn't need a boost. Agiligross is probably does it better, but a RP Rampardos has surprise on its side.

 

[alexwolf]

1) Dragon isn't neccesarily a better offensive type in this instance because Rampardos honestly couldn't give a fuck if the opponent resists Head Smash.

vs 252/40 Ferrothorn = 51%-61%
vs 252/0 Jirachi = 59%-70%
vs 120/0 Conkeldurr = 65%-77%
vs 4/0 Terrakion = 81%-95%
vs 252/0 Gastrodon = 77%-91%
vs 4/0 Magnezone = 75%-89%
vs 4/0 Breloom = 110%-130%

those are the most common Rock-resists in OU and they all get 2HKO'd at best whereas Zwell fails to 2HKO a lot of Steels with his Outrage (for example, the same Ferrothorn spread takes 39% - 46%) and 252/0 Jirachi is never 2HKO'd after Leftovers.

2) Scizor arguably does even better against Zwell because it can actually switch in (loses an avg of 57%) and deal an avg of just under 70% with CB Bullet Punch. In many situations that will be more useful than simply being able to revenge kill.

3) Locking yourself into an attack for 2-3 turns and then confusing yourself is arguably every bit as self-destructive as 50% recoil damage. Also worth noting that Rampardos has a very health 398 HP to burn on recoil damage.

also throwing in my own point - Druddigon is a far better CB TR abuser than Zweilous due to far better bulk and not having to rely on Hustle for power.

1)While it is true that he murders even Rock resists the fact that he kills himself in the process doesn't help his case.
Do you know how much damage Rampardos will take in order to 2hko Ferro?
Half of Ferro's HP and 2 turns of Iron Barbs which equals to 276 HP.
Add to this the SR damage that he would take in the switch in and then Rampardos can be killed even by the weakest priority.

Finally Jirachi is 2hkoed with SR and Lefties by CB Zweilous 21,10% of the time so check your calcs again.
Here is the damage output:
663 Atk vs 236 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 181 - 213 (44.80% - 52.72%)

2)Or the Zweilous user could go for the Fire Fang and one shot Scizor.
Anyway my point was that when Zweilous comes to clean up or wallbreak no priority will hold him back.
Even if Scizor comes in it can handily 2hko him and tank the BP.
BUT Rampardos will always be forced to switch out in front of the 2 primary priority users in OU which is not a good thing.
Are you really arguing that Rampardos has less problems with Scizor than Zweilous?

3)You say that confusing yourself after 2-3 turns is as self destructive as 1/2 recoil huh?
Let's see.
If Outrage lasts 3 turns then it is the same as not confusing you anyway since the TR will be over and you wouldn't stay in anyway.
It takes one turn to setup TR,one turn to switch into Zweilous and other 3 turns for Outrage to hit.So that equals to TR's 5 turns.
So in the first occasion we see that it is the same as Outrage having no negative effect since you will be switching out regardless of confusion right?
Now if Outrage lasts 2 turns then you can always switch out without having lost ANY LIFE and most probably having killed 1 or 2 of your opponents pokes.
I can't even understand your reasoning.You say that the drawbacks are equally bad when it is so obvious that killing yourself to kill something is so much worse than getting confused after killing something(which doesn't even matter half of the times 'cause TR will be over anyway).

Finally about Drudigon.He is somewhat irrelevant in this discusion since we were talking about Rampardos which is a hugely powerful but inaccurate attacker.And that is exactly what Zweilous is.
Drudigon is certainly very viable as a TR attacker but it has far lower attack than both Zweilous and Rampardos,while having perfect accuracy in its attacks(unlike Zeilous and Rampardos).

 

[Pocket]

Those are some impressive calcs, Lee, which can further add to the calcs presented by alphatron to reflect the destruction of Head Smash from Rampardos.

Spork, with Life Orb boost, Rampardos can already run Ice Beam to dispatch Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Tangrowth, even without Sheer Force, but Sheer Force will definitely drastically improve its effectiveness.

2sly4u, you mean using Rampardos as both a TR sweeper and a Rock Polish Sweeper just when TR is about to end? You could do that, but that means you can't run Brave with 0 Spe IVs, meaning that it would have slight trouble sweeping in TR if it is met with slower mons, like Slowbro. Even if it Rock Polishes, it's not outrunning things with 100 base speed or higher, without some Speed EVs. You lose CB for either Expert Belt or Hard Stone (LO + 50% HSmash recoil is suicide). Or you don't run Head Smash. Basically, it does both sets in a mediocre fashion.

 

[2sly4u]

Those are some impressive calcs, Lee, which can further add to the calcs presented by alphatron to reflect the destruction of Head Smash from Rampardos.

Spork, with Life Orb boost, Rampardos can already run Ice Beam to dispatch Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Tangrowth, even without Sheer Force, but Sheer Force will definitely drastically improve its effectiveness.

2sly4u, you mean using Rampardos as both a TR sweeper and a Rock Polish Sweeper just when TR is about to end? You could do that, but that means you can't run Brave with 0 Spe IVs, meaning that it would have slight trouble sweeping in TR if it is met with slower mons, like Slowbro. Even if it Rock Polishes, it's not outrunning things with 100 base speed or higher, without some Speed EVs. You lose CB for either Expert Belt or Hard Stone (LO + 50% HSmash recoil is suicide). Or you don't run Head Smash. Basically, it does both sets in a mediocre fashion.

No, my fault for phrasing poorly. What I meant was a late-game sweeper RP set, probably with a Hard Stone. Feign a Choice set until late game, then Rock Polish and sweep. You'd need some team support to remove Conk and Scizor, though.

@alex wolf: Why are you saying that Druddigon is unrelated to this discussion when literally all you've done is talk about Zewilous...?

 

[alexwolf]

Also guys how are you going to bring in Rampardos in after setting up TR?
This is also a big part of why Rampardos is where he is.
He has almost zero useful resistances.
The only useful resistance that he has is to Fire moves.(Normal,Flying and Poison moves are almost non factor in OU)
Zweilous in the other hand has the Fire resistance and also Water,Grass,Electric,Psychic,Ghost and Dark all of which are commonly used by OU pokes.

This is a very big factor for choosing over those 2 if you ask me 'cause destroying everything and stuff is nice but how the hell are you going to do this if you cannot even find one switch in opportunity.

 

[Pocket]

Trick Roomers have access to moves like Hypnosis, Explosion, Healing Wish, Yawn to bring in Rampardos safely. You can always double-switch, too. If you have TR Reuniclus, you can always switch Rampardos into a Ttar / Jirachi / Blissey switch-in, for instance (note: use Stone-Edge / Hammer Arm instead if you're facing Blissey).

We're not saying that Rampardos is the best physical Trick Room Sweeper out there (Rhyperior and Conkeldurr probably does it better), but it's definitely viable.

 

[Lee]

Do you know how much damage Rampardos will take in order to 2hko Ferro?
Half of Ferro's HP and 2 turns of Iron Barbs which equals to 276 HP.
Add to this the SR damage that he would take in the switch in and then Rampardos can be killed even by the weakest priority.

If that's what is neccesary to take down one of the biggest threats to Trick Room teams then so be it, but it's ultimately a moot point because Ferrothorn outspeeds Ramp in Trick Room and can KO with Power Whip. Both Ramp and Zwell need to predict the switch to beat Ferrothorn but if Rampardos doesn't get it right and uses Head Smash, he just gets off a clean 60~% damage and switches out. Zwell gets locked in while Ferrothorn uses Leech Seed, sets up hazards and stalls out your TR turns. Bye bye momentum.

2)Or the Zweilous user could go for the Fire Fang and one shot Scizor.

So lets assume you make that wonderful prediction and now, you're locked into a 65BP unSTAB'd attack with 76% accuracy? Yeah, you do that while Rampardos just bypasses the need for prediction and locks himself into a 225BP attack heh.

Finally Jirachi is 2hkoed with SR and Lefties by CB Zweilous 21,10% of the time so check your calcs again.

My calcs were right - I said '252/0 Jirachi is never 2HKO'd after Leftovers' and I think you'll find that's right. Don't choose to add Stealth Rock to the equation and then talk as though I'm making stuff up.

Are you really arguing that Rampardos has less problems with Scizor than Zweilous?

Ehh, it's certainly arguable. Scizor can counter Zwelious to an extent (and you touch upon it yourself in your post above this one - the TR abuser needs to be able to switch in so it's likely that Zwelious will be in Scizor's KO range of 70~% anyway). But Scizor sure as hell can't counter Rampardos. There's also the fact that Bullet Punch is obvious as fuck and you can just switch out Rampardos to Bronzong or something and set TR back up whereas Zwell is locked in and needs to eat a Bullet Punch.

also, you seem to be underestimating the difference in power between the two, which does Rampardos a great dis-service.

Zwell Outrage vs 252/252+ Celebi = 64% - 75%
Ramp Head Smash vs 252/252+ Celebi = 86% - 101%

Also guys how are you going to bring in Rampardos in after setting up TR?
This is also a big part of why Rampardos is where he is.
He has almost zero useful resistances.

You're totally right and it's partially why I prefer to use Marowak to Rampardos but Rampy does have that incredible ability to smash through virtually any Pokemon not named Hippowdon by just clicking on 'Head Smash' and that is sometimes worth the downsides. Zwellious doesn't really have that ability - Skarm stops him, Forry stops him, Ferrothorn stops him, Jirachi stops him, Metagross stops him, Heatran stops him, Bronzong stops him...

 

[alexwolf]

Trick Roomers have access to moves like Hypnosis, Explosion, Healing Wish, Yawn to bring in Rampardos safely. You can always double-switch, too. If you have TR Reuniclus, you can always switch Rampardos into a Ttar / Jirachi / Blissey switch-in, for instance (note: use Stone-Edge / Hammer Arm instead if you're facing Blissey).

We're not saying that Rampardos is the best physical Trick Room Sweeper out there (Rhyperior and Conkeldurr probably does it better), but it's definitely viable.

Quite the opposite i would say Pocket.
Most TR users are bulky defensive mons that already spend 2 slots for TR and recovery moves most of times.
Then you must have a damaging move and there is also SR which is a must for every team.
I know that there are some TRers that have Hypnosis and Yawn but they are few and not quite popular.
The most popular TR users are Slowbro,Reuniclus,Porygon2,Jellicent,Blissey and maybe Jirachi i think.None of these pokes commonly use the moves that you mentioned which make bringing Rampardis in easier.

Also Healing Wish is a one trick pony as it kills the user.
Finally what do you mean with double switching?
When the TR user uses TR it is obvious that he is going to swithc out and the TR sweeper is going to come in.So where is the double switch possible?
Also if you have Reuniclus and they bring in TTar you are still going to be in since you must use TR.
And if TTar attacks with Crunch Rampardos is going to get murdered.If Jirachi is in he can paralyze you on the switch or simply kill you with Iron Head.

Finally i know what you are saying,i am just telling that Zweilous is a more viable TR CB wallbreaker than Rampardos,and this is also because of his great resistances.
Noone can deny how exceptionaly hard is to bring Rampardos in.

 

[Jimera0]

Quite the opposite i would say Pocket.
Most TR users are bulky defensive mons that already spend 2 slots for TR and recovery moves most of times.
Then you must have a damaging move and there is also SR which is a must for every team.
I know that there are some TRers that have Hypnosis and Yawn but they are few and not quite popular.
Also Healing Wish is a one trick pony as it kills the user.
Finally what do you mean with double switching?
When the TR user uses TR it is obvious that he is going to swithc out and the TR sweeper is going to come in.So where is the double switch possible?
Also if you have Reuniclus and they bring in TTar you are still going to be in since you must use TR.
And if TTar attacks with Crunch Rampardos is going to get murdered.If Jirachi is in he can paralyze you on the switch or simply kill you with Iron Head.

Finally i know what you are saying,i am just telling that Zweilous is a more viable TR CB wallbreaker than Rampardos,and this is also because of his great resistances.
Noone can deny how exceptionaly hard is to bring Rampardos in.

What bothers me is that you seem to be denying that Rampardos can smash pretty much anything that isn't Hippowdon while Zweilous can't. Seriously, I'm starting to wonder why you have such a boner for Zweilous and a strong hatred for Rampardos. Did Rampardos steal your girlfriend or something? :P

As with most choices, the decision between whether to use Rampardos or Zweilous comes down to your team and what you're looking for. If you have methods that would easily allow you to bring it in but are unable to reliably remove the Pokemon that are walled by Zweilous, then Rampardos can be the better choice. However if you have no trouble removing the Steels that bother Zweilous, then he's likely preferable for the ease of switch.

There are very few clear cut choices in Pokemon, so it ticks me off when people even refuse to consider the merrits other options.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

There are very few clear cut choices in Pokemon, so it ticks me off when people even refuse to consider the merrits other options.

This x1000

Y U PPL USE FC HEATRAN OVAH FC CHANDY? DDDD:::::


Anyway, is RP Rampardos usable...like at all? I don't like using a TR team, but I like spamming Head Smash :P
Should I just use Aggron for my Head Smash Spamming Business?

 

[Jimera0]

This x1000

Y U PPL USE FC HEATRAN OVAH FC CHANDY? DDDD:::::


Anyway, is RP Rampardos usable...like at all? I don't like using a TR team, but I like spamming Head Smash :P
Should I just use Aggron for my Head Smash Spamming Business?

I'd think it's pretty much completely non-viable to be honest. It's hard enough getting Rampardos in at all, let alone getting a free turn in which to set up. Aggron would work better, though quite frankly only marginally so since its weaknesses make it not much more durable than Rampardos is.

 

[alexwolf]

If that's what is neccesary to take down one of the biggest threats to Trick Room teams then so be it, but it's ultimately a moot point because Ferrothorn outspeeds Ramp in Trick Room and can KO with Power Whip. Both Ramp and Zwell need to predict the switch to beat Ferrothorn but if Rampardos doesn't get it right and uses Head Smash, he just gets off a clean 60~% damage and switches out. Zwell gets locked in while Ferrothorn uses Leech Seed, sets up hazards and stalls out your TR turns. Bye bye momentum.

Cool!

So lets assume you make that wonderful prediction and now, you're locked into a 65BP unSTAB'd attack with 76% accuracy? Yeah, you do that while Rampardos just bypasses the need for prediction and locks himself into a 225BP attack heh.

Scizor is never going to switch in on Rampardos so what are we talking about.BUT when Rampardos kills something Scizor is going to be there to ruin your fun and guess when you will be bringing your Rampardos in again?
Right,almost never.Rampardos will most of the time be able to come in play jut once so you must make it count.
Ok so you kill one poke everything is fine and all but now what?You setup TR and tried so hard to bring Rampardos in just to kill a poke?Because Scizor and Conk are there to force you out and make all that effort that you put to bring Rampardos in useless.

My calcs were right - I said '252/0 Jirachi is never 2HKO'd after Leftovers' and I think you'll find that's right. Don't choose to add Stealth Rock to the equation and then talk as though I'm making stuff up.

You are right but calm down.I didn't tell that you are making things up,i just thought you made a mistake.Everyone makes them so what's the big deal?

Ehh, it's certainly arguable. Scizor can counter Zwelious to an extent (and you touch upon it yourself in your post above this one - the TR abuser needs to be able to switch in so it's likely that Zwelious will be in Scizor's KO range of 70~% anyway). But Scizor sure as hell can't counter Rampardos. There's also the fact that Bullet Punch is obvious as fuck and you can just switch out Rampardos to Bronzong or something and set TR back up whereas Zwell is locked in and needs to eat a Bullet Punch.

This is not a counter man.Zweilous won't be always be at 70% health so i don't understand why you state Scizor as a counter.
While it is true that Rampardos has less counters this is offset by the difficulty that he has to come in and the fact that he kills himself in order to do so.
Finally of 'course you are going to switch out from Scizor BUT how may switch in opportunities do you think a Rampardos will have in a OU match?

also, you seem to be underestimating the difference in power between the two, which does Rampardos a great dis-service.

Zwell Outrage vs 252/252+ Celebi = 64% - 75%
Ramp Head Smash vs 252/252+ Celebi = 86% - 101%

So?We already have discussed each pokes counters and checks,pros and cons and you come this late to give me a stand alone calculation?
I don't get it.

You're totally right and it's partially why I prefer to use Marowak to Rampardos but Rampy does have that incredible ability to smash through virtually any Pokemon not named Hippowdon by just clicking on 'Head Smash' and that is sometimes worth the downsides. Zwellious doesn't really have that ability - Skarm stops him, Forry stops him, Ferrothorn stops him, Jirachi stops him, Metagross stops him, Heatran stops him, Bronzong stops him...

While Zweilous doesn't have the exact same ability it comes pretty damn close you must admit.
Every steel type in your list is 2hkoed by Fire Fang i think and some are even 2hkoed by Outrage with just a little bit residual damage(like Jirachi) or with just SR(252 HP Heatran has a 80% chance to get 2hkoed with SR and Lefties factored in).
Once the Steel types are eliminated(you can even use Magnezone if you don't want to predict the switch ins)you are free to kill everything without killing yourself in the process.

What bothers me is that you seem to be denying that Rampardos can smash pretty much anything that isn't Hippowdon while Zweilous can't. Seriously, I'm starting to wonder why you have such a boner for Zweilous and a strong hatred for Rampardos. Did Rampardos steal your girlfriend or something? :P

As with most choices, the decision between whether to use Rampardos or Zweilous comes down to your team and what you're looking for. If you have methods that would easily allow you to bring it in but are unable to reliably remove the Pokemon that are walled by Zweilous, then Rampardos can be the better choice. However if you have no trouble removing the Steels that bother Zweilous, then he's likely preferable for the ease of switch.

There are very few clear cut choices in Pokemon, so it ticks me off when people even refuse to consider the merrits other options.

It is simple.
So much effort is required to make Rampy usefull while Zweilous requires only TR.
Rampardos may be the OMG strong suicidal attacker but this is not what matters the most in a game.How the fuck are you going to bring this thing in?Please give me some realistic opportunities because honestly i cannot thing of many.

Zweilous can be there in the entire match to break the opponents walls,without killing itself and has many switch in opportunities while at the same time not fearing priority so much.
Rampardos will come in once to kill something and then either die if you let him in against a priority user or be almost impossible to bring in again serving the role of death fodder.

So to sum it up Rampardos for me,as a CB TR wallbreaker,just doesn't deserve the effort that you put in order to make him useful.
Zweilous is much easier and much more effective to use imo.
That's all.

 

[Lee]

i think we've both made our case here so i'm happy to agree to disagree but i'll just make one last post on the subject because i'm stubborn like that. :)

Ultimately, you're talking about things like 'predicting switches and using Fire Fang' and 'using Magnezone to clear out Steels' whereas I'm just saying 'HEAD SMASH and watch things die.'

When I wrote the additional Druddigon analysis way back I mentioned how he was a pretty effective late game cleaner on a TR team and I'd be more inclined to say Zwelious was better suited to that role than to wallbreaking. Clear out the Steels, bring in Zwelious and spam Outrage until everything's dead. I believe Rampardos is a better hole-puncher, and Zwelious is better suited to late game sweeping. The two probably have okay synergy since Ramp can smash physical walls and lure out and 2HKO Steel types with Head Smash for Zwelious to sweep with Outrage later.

It is simple.
So much effort is required to make Rampy usefull while Zweilous requires only TR.
Rampardos may be the OMG strong suicidal attacker but this is not what matters the most in a game.How the fuck are you going to bring this thing in?Please give me some realistic opportunities because honestly i cannot thing of many.

This is the only thing I can't disagree with. Zwelious is certainly easier to switch in (but he's still quite frail, be aware of that). But there are a bunch of methods to bring Rampardos in unscathed such as - Explosion, Memento, Healing Wish, slow ('fast') U-turn/Volt Switch/Baton Pass, good old fashioned saccing, predicting a double switch or Sleeping/Yawning the opponent to open up a double switch, Dual Screen support...and there's always just switching in on non-threatening Pokemon like Skarmory, Blissey and Forry. Yeah, it's more effort but he's a lot harder to counter once he gets in.

Also, does anyone think a Rock Polish set could work outside of TR?

Last gen people used Rock Polish/Stone Edge/Earthquake/Endeavour @ Focus Sash to lure out and cripple the opponent's bulky ground. Probably the best way to use RP but still pretty naff.

 

[alexwolf]

i think we've both made our case here so i'm happy to agree to disagree but i'll just make one last post on the subject because i'm stubborn like that. :)

Ultimately, you're talking about things like 'predicting switches and using Fire Fang' and 'using Magnezone to clear out Steels' whereas I'm just saying 'HEAD SMASH and watch things die.'

When I wrote the additional Druddigon analysis way back I mentioned how he was a pretty effective late game cleaner on a TR team and I'd be more inclined to say Zwelious was better suited to that role than to wallbreaking. Clear out the Steels, bring in Zwelious and spam Outrage until everything's dead. I believe Rampardos is a better hole-puncher, and Zwelious is better suited to late game sweeping. The two probably have okay synergy since Ramp can smash physical walls and lure out and 2HKO Steel types with Head Smash for Zwelious to sweep with Outrage later.

Anyway we have both made our points clear as you said.And seeing this post of you i thing that i agree with mostly everything.
Happy to say that!!!

This is the only thing I can't disagree with. Zwelious is certainly easier to switch in (but he's still quite frail, be aware of that). But there are a bunch of methods to bring Rampardos in unscathed such as - Explosion, Memento, Healing Wish, slow ('fast') U-turn/Volt Switch/Baton Pass, good old fashioned saccing, predicting a double switch or Sleeping/Yawning the opponent to open up a double switch, Dual Screen support...and there's always just switching in on non-threatening Pokemon like Skarmory, Blissey and Forry. Yeah, it's more effort but he's a lot harder to counter once he gets in.

We are good in this one also!

Last gen people used Rock Polish/Stone Edge/Earthquake/Endeavour @ Focus Sash to lure out and cripple the opponent's bulky ground. Probably the best way to use RP but still pretty naff.

I don't think i made this question(maybe you missquoted)but whatever...

>implying Rampardos requires more than Trick Room to be successful.

Rampardos requires TR AND switching in to be succesful.
Bringing Rampardos in is easily said than done.

 

[balding2early]

I find banette is a good partner for rampardos using focus sash trickroom destiny bond filler filler.

 

[alphatron]

Resists or not, zweilous is not going to like switching into attacks directly with those base 72/70/70 defenses. I honestly am not seeing the numerous switch in options for him either, as even with his resistances he will still be taking a ton of damage from the more powerful attackers in the game anyway. When I play trick room, I usually use a lagging tail u-turn/trick room pokemon just to get rampardos in so I won't say that he's easy to simply switch in to attacks. But most pokemon have this same problem.

I find this arguement to be somewhat needless as Rampardos is being used as purely a wallbreaker in this scenario and not a sweeper. And as a wallbreaker, he clearly does the job better by dealing alot more damage, clearing the way for your actual sweeper.

 

[alexwolf]

Resists or not, Zweilous is not going to like switching into attacks directly with those base 72/70/70 defenses. I honestly am not seeing the numerous switch in options for him either, as even with his resistances he will still be taking a ton of damage from the more powerful attackers in the game anyway. When I play trick room, I usually use a lagging tail u-turn/trick room pokemon just to get rampardos in so I won't say that he's easy to simply switch in to attacks. But most pokemon have this same problem.

I find this argument to be somewhat needless as Rampardos is being used as purely a wallbreaker in this scenario and not a sweeper. And as a wallbreaker, he clearly does the job better by dealing alot more damage, clearing the way for your actual sweeper.

His defenses are just fine with Max Hp.
And of course he can't take hits from powerful attackers.
You are supposed to bring him in on walls or soft hitters in general.
Also with many TR mons being psychic or ghost type,Zweilous's resistances are quite handy.
So for example you can set up TR with a poke like Slowbro or Jellicent and standard Ttar goes for the Crunch you easily take the hit having lost ~23% on average.

Here is a short list of pokes that Zweilous can come in relatively easy:

-Standart Rotom-w's Tbolt : 339 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (95 Base Power): 98 - 116 (28.16% - 33.33%)

-Standart Rotom-W's Hydro Pump : 339 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (120 Base Power): 124 - 147 (35.63% - 42.24%)

-Specially Defensive Ninetales's Flamethrower : 198 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (95 Base Power): 85 - 101 (24.43% - 29.02%)

-Specially Defensive Ninetales's Fire Blast : 198 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (120 Base Power): 108 - 128 (31.03% - 36.78%)

-Nasty Plot Celebi's Giga Drain : 328 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (75 Base Power): 75 - 89 (21.55% - 25.57%)
....with Life Orb : 328 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (75 Base Power): 97 - 115 (27.87% - 33.05%)

-Sleep Talk Gyrados's Waterfall : 286 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (80 Base Power): 70 - 83 (20.11% - 23.85%)

-Offensive Gyarados's Waterfall : 383 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (80 Base Power): 93 - 111 (26.72% - 31.90%)

-Bulky Gyarados's Waterfall : 304 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (80 Base Power): 75 - 88 (21.55% - 25.29%)

-Gengar's Shadow Ball : 359 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (80 Base Power): 88 - 104 (25.29% - 29.89%)
...with Life Orb : 359 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (80 Base Power): 114 - 135 (32.76% - 38.79%)

-Starmie's Surf : 299 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (95 Base Power): 87 - 102 (25.00% - 29.31%)
...with Life Orb : 299 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (95 Base Power): 113 - 133 (32.47% - 38.22%)

-Starmie's Hydro Pump : 299 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (120 Base Power): 110 - 129 (31.61% - 37.07%)

-Starmie's Tbolt : 299 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (95 Base Power): 58 - 68 (16.67% - 19.54%)
...with Life Orb : 299 Atk vs 176 Def & 348 HP (95 Base Power): 75 - 89 (21.55% - 25.57%)

-Forretress's whatever : LOL!



I mentioned only moves that do 40% or less.Notice how i am still in the top 25 of the OU.If we continue we have Espeon,Blissey,Virizion,Scrafty and Venusaur as potential switch ins for Zweilous.
It is clear i believe that Zweilous has many relatively easy switch in opportunities.

Finally i agree with you that Rampardos is a better wallbreaker.

 

[The_Derpy_Chicken]

Rampardos is no good switching in on a sweeper. Switch him in on a wall, set up with Rock Polish, and have +Atk nature, 252 Atk EV's and 252 Spd EV's, unless you are doing trick room. Then drop Rock Polish. But yeah, set him up with Rock Polish when his Atk is maxed, and he could seriously deal out some destruction. If he got to +6 Spd, that would be awesome. And terrifying. But mostly AWESOME!
Ability: Encourage
Nature: Adamant (I think it's Adamant)
EV's: 252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 whatever.
Item: Idk. Maybe Lax Incense, and hope for Lax Hax.
Moves: Rock Polish, Some Atk upping move, Stone Edge, and a coverage move. If you could somehow get this off with full health and +6 Spd +6Atk that would be total destruction. Unfortunately, that is very unlikely to happen. It would require at the very least a six turn setup, if he can Swords Dance or something equally effective. Otherwise a nine-turn setup, which will never happen. But IF somehow you DID get that off, then Rampardos would be just about unstoppable short of sending something like Mega Mewtwo X. However, this is probably the most unreliable thing to ever attempt, so it's pretty much a terrible idea to try.