I strongly suggest pro ban users with min reqs to post more replays of how Zamazenta-C is broken. Theorymonning and posting its stats is basically spam at this point.
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I strongly suggest pro ban users with min reqs to post more replays of why and how Zamazenta-C is broken. Theorymonning and spamming its stats is basically spam at this point.
this narrative of the pro-ban side needing to post replays to back up arguments is getting a bit ridiculous. Considering I can say the exact same thing to everybody whose pro-unban, why does one side of the argument need to back up every single bit of information they say with replays while the other can just make any claim they want. I have seen nobody in recent pages who has made a worth while read of a post theorymon to the extreme outside of some ideas on how the meta might settle in a couple months, which is totally reasonable to theorymon about considering we dont have a time machine. Also im not sure where this stat thing came from considering most of the posts from again, people whos posts haven't been nonsense, barely touch on its stat spread and we basically all know what it does at this point. Unless somebody makes some crazy claim with zama, I don't think replays are necessary to make a coherent post. Dismissing pro-ban arguments just because there isn't replays is ignorant. At least these people are making posts and discussing Zamazenta rather than posting a wall of calcs and calling it a day. Sure replays are cool to back up your argument and yeah I'll encourage them if people feel theyre important, but calling out the opposition to post replays or theyre wrong is so silly. how about yall post replays to support every single point youre going to make on why you feel Zamazenta should be in the tier. replays can be used as a tool for both sides to support their arguments, however, neither side is obligated to post replays just so they can discuss with other people if zamazenta is/isnt unhealthy for the tier.One last thing and sort of the main reason I made this post: for the pro-ban side, start proving replays in your arguments.
It's because Zamazenta-C is being suspect tested to be unbanned, not the opposite. The burden of proof is on pro-ban users to convince why that shouldn't happen. All I see is endless spam about how it's a legendary and how it has super high stats, which is incomparably worse than even the worst pro-unban argument.this narrative of the pro-ban side needing to post replays to back up arguments is getting a bit ridiculous. Considering I can say the exact same thing to everybody whose pro-unban, why does one side of the argument need to back up every single bit of information they say with replays while the other can just make any claim they want. I have seen nobody in recent pages who has made a worth while read of a post theorymon to the extreme outside of some ideas on how the meta might settle in a couple months, which is totally reasonable to theorymon about considering we dont have a time machine. Also im not sure where this stat thing came from considering most of the posts from again, people whos posts haven't been nonsense, barely touch on its stat spread and we basically all know what it does at this point. Unless somebody makes some crazy claim with zama, I don't think replays are necessary to make a coherent post. Dismissing pro-ban arguments just because there isn't replays is ignorant. At least these people are making posts and discussing Zamazenta rather than posting a wall of calcs and calling it a day. Sure replays are cool to back up your argument and yeah I'll encourage them if people feel theyre important, but calling out the opposition to post replays or theyre wrong is so silly. how about yall post replays to support every single point youre going to make on why you feel Zamazenta should be in the tier. replays can be used as a tool for both sides to support their arguments, however, neither side is obligated to post replays just so they can discuss with other people if zamazenta is/isnt unhealthy for the tier.
nobody is doing that though, if anything it's the pro unban people who are just spamming calcs and ignoring what effect it would have on the meta. by the way I am pro unban but I dislike it when the other opinion is portrayed so dishonestlyIt's because Zamazenta-C is being suspect tested to be unbanned, not the opposite. The burden of proof is on pro-ban users to convince why that shouldn't happen. All I see is endless spam about how it's a legendary and how it has super high stats, which is incomparably worse than even the worst pro-unban argument.
Um what? The argument you describe hasn’t been mentioned by any competent pro ban posts on this thread, and even the stupider ones say nothing about zamazenta being a legendary therefore it’s broken (we have several legendaries usable in the tier already: heatran, the legendary goats, the Regis, and all of the tapus, not to mention all of the various mythicals scattered among smogon’s tiers). If anything, the typical pro unban side has a worse argument, as there is little to no consideration of zama’s matchup vs offensive builds, and instead focus entirely on zamazenta’s matchup vs 2 specific archetypes (balance and stall) in which the dog has it rough. I feel it’s important to consider both sides of an argument when creating a post rather than just focusing on the part you want to focus on, not just on smogon but on threads like this in general, regardless of your opinion.It's because Zamazenta-C is being suspect tested to be unbanned, not the opposite. The burden of proof is on pro-ban users to convince why that shouldn't happen. All I see is endless spam about how it's a legendary and how it has super high stats, which is incomparably worse than even the worst pro-unban argument.
It's just speculation, I'd rather not go full in detail, since it'd just derail the thread, but basically, it's hard to slot in and it's hard to make effective use of. At best, it'd be A-/B+, at worse, B-, which is the range where a lot of UU Mons tend to show up.Look. I've read a lot of whack opinions in this thread but
"It could go to UU" when we're already noticing major changes to Pokemon in the tier its being suspected into?
Yeeeeeeesh
Are you absolutely sure this isn't a low ladder anecdote? I find it very hard to believe that this happened even at 1500-1600 rangeOne thing I'd like to note is teammates. I've been using Finch's Icetails, Torn-T Zama-C team. Zama-C can fit Behemoth Bash with good team support, making the Fairies a far easier thing to deal with. Frankly, I took more damage from hail and Wild Charge than enemy attacks. I saw a rain team using Jolteon. This is because it wanted to Thunder with stab, and is faster than Zama-C. That's the kind of stupid shit people have to do lmao
I agree, this shouldn't be strictly relegated to just one side, both pro-ban and pro-unban and even the philosophical ones here should use replays to strengthen their point. Theorymonning can go on and on, but battling is how it will be proven if it's good or notthis narrative of the pro-ban side needing to post replays to back up arguments is getting a bit ridiculous. Considering I can say the exact same thing to everybody whose pro-unban, why does one side of the argument need to back up every single bit of information they say with replays while the other can just make any claim they want. I have seen nobody in recent pages who has made a worth while read of a post theorymon to the extreme outside of some ideas on how the meta might settle in a couple months, which is totally reasonable to theorymon about considering we dont have a time machine. Also im not sure where this stat thing came from considering most of the posts from again, people whos posts haven't been nonsense, barely touch on its stat spread and we basically all know what it does at this point. Unless somebody makes some crazy claim with zama, I don't think replays are necessary to make a coherent post. Dismissing pro-ban arguments just because there isn't replays is ignorant. At least these people are making posts and discussing Zamazenta rather than posting a wall of calcs and calling it a day. Sure replays are cool to back up your argument and yeah I'll encourage them if people feel theyre important, but calling out the opposition to post replays or theyre wrong is so silly. how about yall post replays to support every single point youre going to make on why you feel Zamazenta should be in the tier. replays can be used as a tool for both sides to support their arguments, however, neither side is obligated to post replays just so they can discuss with other people if zamazenta is/isnt unhealthy for the tier.
That's not how the burden of proof works. It actually lies on the party that want to change the status quo by bringing the dispute up, that is in this case on those who want to unban Zamazenta-Crowned.It's because Zamazenta-C is being suspect tested to be unbanned, not the opposite. The burden of proof is on pro-ban users to convince why that shouldn't happen. All I see is endless spam about how it's a legendary and how it has super high stats, which is incomparably worse than even the worst pro-unban argument.
Your giant wall of calcs hardly proves anything. First you start off by calcing J o l t e o n of all things, as well as stating torn t and thunderus t as “answers” which is just not true at all. You really think thunderus t can switch into a behemoth bash or cc from a zamazenta? Not to mention it doesn’t come even close to killing it back with any move in its possession, even with specs. And then posting this calc:It's just speculation, I'd rather not go full in detail, since it'd just derail the thread, but basically, it's hard to slot in and it's hard to make effective use of. At best, it'd be A-/B+, at worse, B-, which is the range where a lot of UU Mons tend to show up.
I also like how you comment solely on that one small comment rather than the rest of the post to strengthen your side.
Are you absolutely sure this isn't a low ladder anecdote? I find it very hard to believe that this happened even at 1500-1600 range
Also, the very common Barraskewda has a pretty good chance to outspeed and 2HKO Zama, while neither it nor Jolteon manage to take a hit other than BBash
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. +2 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Whereas Jolteon
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunder vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 174-205 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Jolteon has one and only one advantage over Barra which is the fact that it has a better defensive matchup against Zama, as it is immune to Wild Charge and takes marginally less damage from BBash
As niche as Thunderus-T is, it does a far better job staving off Zama
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 144-170 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 120-142 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 216-255 (72.2 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
CC also drops Spdef, making Thunderus-T's hits sting more since it is slower than Zama
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. -1 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 308-364 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 206-244 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And that's it you want to use Thunderus-T. Zapdos does great against Zama and it is a staple of Rain. Ferro sits on the defensive sets since they prefer BBash as CC causes Zama to be weaker defensively
Let's not forget, Torn-T
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 338-398 (99.1 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
All of this without CC's defense drops or Wild Charge's recoil
What about Banded Urshifu?
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 322-380 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 214-254 (62.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. +2 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain on a critical hit: 306-363 (89.7 - 106.4%) -- approx. 31.3% chance to OHKO
This is looking good for Urshifu and it isn't even a defensive answer.
I agree, this shouldn't be strictly relegated to just one side, both pro-ban and pro-unban and even the philosophical ones here should use replays to strengthen their point. Theorymonning can go on and on, but battling is how it will be proven if it's good or not
I am guilty of this myself and I will post replays about Zama and I urge pro-unban to start posting replays as well.
I'd be more inclined to believe the pro-ban side if their posts had more replays rather than posts like "I fail to see how that's my problem" or "This single line of yours makes your post invalid"
Your giant wall of calcs hardly proves anything. First you start off by calcing J o l t e o n of all things, as well as stating torn t and thunderus t as “answers” which is just not true at all. You really think thunderus t can switch into a behemoth bash or cc from a zamazenta? Not to mention it doesn’t come even close to killing it back with any move in its possession, even with specs. And then posting this calc:
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 322-380 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
and then later saying how urshifu has a good matchup vs zamazenta at the end of all of these calcs, after litterally posting how zama had a 68.8% chance to ohko urshifu after a howl, and a guaranteed ohko after rocks chip. Not to mention the only thing you calced were rain mons, and I’m still not sure why, as rain has not only recently fell off, but was a pretty small archetype to begin with. Specifically calcing zama vs rain to determine how broken or not broken it is is downright stupid, not to mention that all of the mons you listed have a losing matchup vs zama. You could’ve at least bothered to calc seisemetoad, the one rain mon that actually has a decent matchup vs zama with some pivoting around.
As much as I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about rhetoric, I'm quite certain that the burden of proof is on the pro-ban side. If we weren't in a suspect test you might be right, but the important context of the "status quo" that we currently find ourselves in is that Zama has already been determined to be lacking enough to potentially drop down, which is what the suspect test is for. This would mean that the burden of proof is not on those who agree with the decision already made by the tiering council, but rather those who contrarily disagree with the concept of Zama in OU.That's not how the burden of proof works. It actually lies on the party that want to change the status quo by bringing the dispute up, that is in this case on those who want to unban Zamazenta-Crowned.
The OU tiering council believes Zamazenta-Crowned deserves the opportunity to be tested down from Ubers into the OU tier. Please note that a retest does not make it an official addition to the OU tier, but rather it allows for Zamazenta-Crowned to have the opportunity to be voted down from Ubers to OU. In order to have an accurate vote, we will be retesting Zamazenta-Crowned on the OU ladder over the next few weeks, much like any other suspect test.
The council believes now is the best time to test Zamazenta-Crowned as the recent survey established that players and council alike believe the metagame to be very competitive and balanced. Following the Cinderace and Magearna bans, there have been no outstanding candidates that would warrant tiering action. This can be backed up by 68.5% of the playerbase from the survey that stated they do not believe that any Pokemon currently in the OU tier deserves a suspect test. These factors coupled together provide a good opportunity for the council and the community to evaluate the potential impact Zamazenta-Crowned can have on the OU tier.
The survey also displayed that 51% of players support a suspect test for Zamzenta-Crowned, with the remaining 14.6% being indifferent, and 34.4% being against it. While 51% is barely more than half, when you consider how the 14.6% of players that feel indifferent do not oppose the test, it could be seen as saying that 65.6% of players are open to testing Zamazenta. With this majority in mind, the council decided Zamazenta-Crowned was in a fair position to receive a suspect test due to the various reasons detailed below.
Zamazenta-Crowned is unlike most Pokemon as it is forced to use Rusted Shield as its held item. This means it is unable to use other items, such as Leftovers or Choice Band. This by itself limits Zamazenta-Crowned’s performance to its stats, typing and its movepool. Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk is naturally high as a cover legendary, sitting at a base stat total of 720. It’s ability, Dauntless Shield, provides it additional bulk by giving a +1 boost to its Defense stat upon entry in battle. This boost alongside Zamazenta-Crowned’s high Defense stat allows it to serve as a strong defensive answer to physical threats in the metagame, such as Melmetal and Weavile. This Defense boost can also be useful in making Zamazenta-Crowned difficult to revenge kill. For example, Zeraora’s Close Combat against Zamazenta-Crowned after Dauntless Shield only deals 35% - 41%, which means it is able to comfortably avoid the 2HKO. On the other hand, Zamazenta-Crowned’s high Special Defense stat can also make it difficult to KO, as a Shadow Ball from Specs Dragapult only deals 36.3% - 43.3%. Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk cannot be underestimated and looks to be a large factor to its performance in the OU tier. This will be a key aspect to evaluate during the suspect test, as it may determine whether or not Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk is too much for the current OU metagame to handle.
Additionally, Zamazenta-Crowned does provide another benefit in that it is essentially immune to Knock Off and Trick, both of which are very strong moves this generation. In an item centric metagame, this immunity can grant Zamazenta-Crowned some additional defense roles. Zamazenta-Crowned is more reliable at handling Trick users like Clefable and Tapu Fini, as they will be unable to trade their items away. Knock Off users that have recently risen in prominence such as Bisharp and Weavile will now have to deal with an opposing threat that eat Knock Off comfortably. Not only is Zamazenta-Crowned immune to losing its item, but its typing, bulk, and ability allow it to tank Knock Off with ease and force Dark-types out.
While Zamazenta-Crowned boasts immense bulk, it also has a respectable Attack stat. Base 130 Attack with a decent movepool, including options such as Close Combat, Behemoth Bash, Ice Fang, and Wild Charge can allow it to pose a threat to a majority of offensive Pokemon in the OU tier. Close Combat and Behemoth Bash are strong STAB attacks, which can allow Zamazenta-Crowned to deal significant damage to Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Clefable. Its remaining attacks can provide solid coverage to hit every switch in - Ice Fang for Landorus-Therian, Wild Charge for Toxapex and Corviknight, and Fire Fang for Scizor. Despite the various coverage options, Zamazenta-Crowned may run into a small issue of 4 move slot syndrome. With 4 attacks, it has enough strength to punish offensive Pokemon, but it may lack enough attacking power to break through bulkier teams. With Howl, it can improve its breaking capabilities, but it then struggles to quickly KO threats like Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, and Scizor, depending on whichever coverage option was dropped.
While it appears to be difficult to answer offensively, Zamazenta-Crowned looks to struggle at breaking through bulkier Pokemon in the metagame. No boosting item and no Swords Dance means that aside from Howl, Zamazenta-Crowned is forced to rely on its Attack stat and coverage moves to break through walls like Toxapex, Tangrowth, and Corviknight. Wild Charge, while nice in theory, is unable to 2HKO a physically defensive Corviknight with 168 Defense EV’s even with Stealth Rock. Additionally, because Zamazenta-Crowned lacks recovery and cannot hold Leftovers, any residual damage from Wild Charge recoil and hazards is permanent. In other words, this means that Zamazenta-Crowned is on a timer, which has been seen less this generation due to Heavy-Duty Boots being a popular item.
As mentioned earlier, Zamazenta-Crowned does have access to Howl as its only boosting move. Howl, unlike Swords Dance, raises the Attack stat by a single boost instead of two. As such, this means Zamazenta-Crowned will require multiple uses of Howl before it is able to make a significant difference in its damage output. However, thanks to Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk and Dauntless Shield, it may not be too difficult to set up multiple times in battle. It is essentially guaranteed to live any single hit, even strong super effective ones like Garchomp's Earthquake. Zamazenta-Crowned is already capable of setting up on a majority of physical attackers, and its bulk can help increase set up opportunities.
Finally, thanks to Zamazenta-Crowned’s high Speed stat, it is able to function as an offensive pivot that can provide defensive utility while simultaneously exerting offensive pressure in order to check faster threats, such as Kartana and Kyurem. This by itself opens up a potential role in the metagame, as it can provide an additional check to Tornadus-Therian, which only three other Pokemon at this current time can do (Tapu Koko, Dragapult, and Zeraora). Additionally, thanks to its typing and immunity to Knock Off, Zamazenta-Crowned looks to be a strong answer to Dark-types such as Bisharp, Hydreigon, and Mandibuzz, as well as Knock Off users including Ferrothorn, Rillaboom, and Clefable.
Zamazenta-Crowned in theory looks to be an interesting addition to the tier. It has a fair number of pros, such as its immense bulk and high Speed tier, and a fair number of cons, such as its inability to run another item as well as a lack of a proper boosting move. This thread should be used to focus on Zamazenta-Crowned’s place in the suspect metagame and nothing else. There should be no discussion of alternative suspects or discussion opposing this retest. Normal suspect rules and procedure, which is outlined below, applies to this retest as well. Finally, the threshold necessary to unban Zamazenta-Crowned is 50%+1 due to it being a retest and for more on this, consult this thread.
- ***THIS IS NEW TO SS OU SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXE minimum games 80 50 80.2 49 80.4 48 80.6 47 80.8 46 81 45 81.2 44 81.4 43 81.6 42 81.8 41 82 40 82.2 39 82.4 38 82.6 37 82.8 36 83 35 83.2 34 83.4 33 83.6 32 83.8 31 84 30
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, more so than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:
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I Think that Zamazenta-Crowned should go to OU, as it lacks body press, which would work well with its dauntless shield ability, which would help it stay in Ubers. The second thing is a follow up, being that it has howl, which isn't as good as swords dance to raise its attack, and the set that works "best" As you have stated before, its moves are able to 2HKO staples in the tier, and that pokemon such as Dragapult can't revenge kill him. However, a specially offensive Heatran with a modest nature and maxed out special attack using Magma Storm is able to OHKO Zamazenta-Crowned.
HP: 92 Attack: 130 Defense: 145 Sp. Atk: 80 Sp. Def: 145 Speed: 128
Let's do some math, it has an impressive amount of bulk, its ability is definitely not competitive in OU considering that it can reach +1 in Defense already with its entry into the field.
I state that Speed Boost is already at the limit (along with Soul Heart), but moreover in the past there was also Moxie so currently as a mechanic there could also be and I think it is tolerable. BUT NO Dauntless Shield!
It takes Momentum and allows you to set up quietly, plus it has a monstrous movepool capable of countering Slowbro, Toxapex, Mandibuzz Landorus-T and Zapdos (just to name a few).
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 266-314 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 265-313 (62.6 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 212-250 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 244-288 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 160-192 (41.8 - 50.2%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's not all, the only ones who can outspeed him are Dragapult, Regieleki, Zeraora and Tapu Koko. And do you want to know who is able to revenge kill him? NONE OF THEM.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. +2 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 114-136 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 112-133 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
The metagame is already centralizing on him, I've seen scarfers like Blacenphalon who can only do something if in range.
(252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 236-282 (69.2 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
The rocky helmet is now the favorite item on Zapdos and Mandibuzz.
In conclusion, will the metagame become all based on the building of the latter where each team will arouse the presence of Zamazenta-Crowned?
YES
KEEP THIS BANNED and enjoy the current OU.
P.S. there are other ways to check and discourage the possible uses of Magma Storm, BandSharp, Garchomp, Dragapult, Kartana and Cloyster, if you don't succeed, you have big building problems.
Peace.
I'm on the fence of unbanning zama but the logic that "Zamazenta should be lowered. There are other steel types in the tier, such as Necrozma Dusk Mane, which fit on teams way better than Zamazenta does." is really poor. And I wouldn't exactly call excadrill a better steel type.I Think that Zamazenta-Crowned should go to OU, as it lacks body press, which would work well with its dauntless shield ability, which would help it stay in Ubers. The second thing is a follow up, being that it has howl, which isn't as good as swords dance to raise its attack, and the set that works "best" As you have stated before, its moves are able to 2HKO staples in the tier, and that pokemon such as Dragapult can't revenge kill him. However, a specially offensive Heatran with a modest nature and maxed out special attack using Magma Storm is able to OHKO Zamazenta-Crowned.
Zamazenta should be lowered. There are other steel types in the tier, such as Necrozma Dusk Mane, which fit on teams way better than Zamazenta does. Even OU steel types outclass Zamazenta, such as Corviknight, Skarmory, Exacdrill, and Heatran. It lacks body press, which if it had it, would be decent, as it complements its Dauntless Shield abillity pretty well, and could be somewhat viable in Ubers if it had it, which it unfortunatley does not have. it does have a at best decent moveset, but there are better offensive options than Zamazenta. That being said, Zamazenta should be lowered
ausma edit: please don't double post
The goings-on of Ubers shouldn't affect the goings-on of OU. Spectrier is also highly outclassed in ubers, but that doesn't mean it should be unbanned; we had a whole suspect test about it. Necrozma-DM outclassing Zamazenta shouldn't affect its status in OU.Zamazenta should be lowered. There are other steel types in the tier, such as Necrozma Dusk Mane, which fit on teams way better than Zamazenta does. Even OU steel types outclass Zamazenta, such as Corviknight, Skarmory, Exacdrill, and Heatran. It lacks body press, which if it had it, would be decent, as it complements its Dauntless Shield abillity pretty well, and could be somewhat viable in Ubers if it had it, which it unfortunatley does not have. it does have a at best decent moveset, but there are better offensive options than Zamazenta. That being said, Zamazenta should be lowered
To piggyback on the above post the Dauntless Shield Max Def Body Press is only marginally stronger than Max Atk CC and +3 Body Press is only a bit stronger than +1 Close Combat, though again irrelevant.The goings-on of Ubers shouldn't affect the goings-on of OU. Spectrier is also highly outclassed in ubers, but that doesn't mean it should be unbanned; we had a whole suspect test about it. Necrozma-DM outclassing Zamazenta shouldn't affect its status in OU.
And it doesn't matter how good it would be with Body Press; I'm fairly certain it still wouldn't break it in OU and wouldn't at all make it good in ubers, but that hardly matters because it doesn't have Body Press.
I have a question. Where did you get this information and proof your statement. I'm curious about this. Can you please say where did you get this information and proof it? Just a question. Because putting words is way easier than proofing with prints and other stuff.
Thanks mate.
here??? Could've just looked it up yourself??????
Ah, no worries. Sorry for my ang e r. Early morning + I, frankly, have an issue with getting annoyed when questioned, even when reasonable. Have a good day ^^Thanks mate.
EDIT : I don't have twitter.
So what has your experience been then since completing reqs? It seems your opinion hasn't changed, but have you used or since talked to others who have used offense? How viable is Bulky Volcarona on Bulky or Hyper Offense? Has anyone seen success with using Bulky chomp/Landorus/Scarf Victini on Offense alongside Volcorona to check Zamazenta?My thoughts on Zama are kinda mixed. 130 attack isn't close to godlike, and both 4mss and its less that decent offensive typing hold it back more than a bit. However, the problem with zama isn't the fact that it can't effectively wallbreak, the problem is it's stellar matchup versus any sort of offensive team, the only half-answer to it being volcarona, which is often 2hkod by zama cc if it doesnt have investment, and unable to kill back with flamethrower. Not to mention that every volc that switches in allows a free heatran, who's magma storm is amazing vs offense, and nothing can heal it off that doesnt get trapped and taunted. The fact that volc is usually supposed to be a lategame sweeper that has to be constantly brought in vs zama is very inconvenient for offense. The fact that nine times out of ten zama just easily sweeps HO and often beats BO means it poses a huge threat to a meta. Playing HO in high ladder has been a huge struggle, and i had to resort to a Shedinja balance to save myself (sick team but very fat). The reason why offense struggling vs zama is such a huge deal isn't because "muh offense," it's because it turns the metagame very boring and dry, with no HO to muscle past fat thanks to zama, which means that many matches result in fat vs fat for 100+ turns(if no early forfeit). In conclusion, zamazenta isn't banworthy because of it's ability to wallbreak (let's be honest, most of the time it can't), it's banworthy because of it's effect on the meta and the overall fun to be had playing competetive.
Also here's the Shedinja balance I created, it's been having success at 1800 ladder so far. Enjoy! https://pokepast.es/f0dbe10d0b5601c4