Metagame np: NU Stage 13 - Don't Stop Me Now

[cyanize]

Am I the only person that thinks people are running the wrong Aggron sets?
I can understand running Low Kick > Superpower (though I think Superpower is more worth it in a lot of situations due to being able to hit stuff like Gastro, Poliwrath, and Ferroseed harder) but what does Heavy Slam hit? It doesn't 2HKO anything better than Head Smash does, and doesn't hit most of the things that resist Head Smash as they either resist Heavy Slam itself (Lix, KK) or are too heavy to take notable damage from it (252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 117-138 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, for example. Head Smash, on the contrary, is a clean 2HKO.) IMO it's a wated slot and could go to something like EQ to hit Garb w/o recoil and chunk Lix/other Aggron without relying on a move that is 100% useless otherwise as well as chunk Poliwrath quite heavily (about 48%).
Another thing that bothers me is the number of people advocating for Fire Punch. Why would you use Fire Punch when it hits legit one thing (Torterra) when Ice Punch not only hits that harder, but also hits Claydol, Golurk, Sandslash and the Lord Stunfisk 252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 144-170 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- 41.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery? Am I missing something here?
I have also seen no mention of Autotomize Aggron, which sounds terrifying. Something like

Aggron @ Stone Plate
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Autotomize
- Head Smash
- Superpower / Low Kick / Substitute
- Ice Punch / Earthquake

I think it'd play like an even more offensive RP Rhydon, since it doesn't have as much raw bulk but makes up for it with absolutely absurd power. It gets up to 398 speed (aka faster than entire unboosted meta) even with Adamant, and as Punchshroom demonstrated, still is ridiculously powerful with only a Stone Plate boost. The coverage is a big toss up: you can run Low Kick+Ice Punch to hit weakened Lix, Golurk, Claydol, and Torterra, but at the cost of losing to any sort of Poliwrath and allowing a Klinklang to set up on you, Superpower+Ice Punch does all of the above and stops KK from setting up and hitting Ferroseed at the cost of being one-time use, weakening you sweep and making you even more susceptible to Ajet and Mach Punch. You can run Sub+EQ if you don't mind missing out on Torterra, though with a Sub up you beat pretty much everything else bar Gastrodon and Poliwrath. I haven't built a team around this set yet so it's mostly based on calcs and hard stats, but this set seems to have too much potential to have gone completely unnoticed.

tl;dr Aggron's moves of choice as stated in this thread seem weird, and no one seems to be using RP Aggron.



e: my b, fire punch hits ferro alongside torterra. still not worth imo especially if you use eq, since cb eq does a good chunk to ferro.

 

[Pokedots]

Am I the only person that thinks people are running the wrong Aggron sets?
I can understand running Low Kick > Superpower (though I think Superpower is more worth it in a lot of situations due to being able to hit stuff like Gastro, Poliwrath, and Ferroseed harder) but what does Heavy Slam hit? It doesn't 2HKO anything better than Head Smash does, and doesn't hit most of the things that resist Head Smash as they either resist Heavy Slam itself (Lix, KK) or are too heavy to take notable damage from it (252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 117-138 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, for example. Head Smash, on the contrary, is a clean 2HKO.) IMO it's a wated slot and could go to something like EQ to hit Garb w/o recoil and chunk Lix/other Aggron without relying on a move that is 100% useless otherwise as well as chunk Poliwrath quite heavily (about 48%).
Another thing that bothers me is the number of people advocating for Fire Punch. Why would you use Fire Punch when it hits legit one thing (Torterra) when Ice Punch not only hits that harder, but also hits Claydol, Golurk, Sandslash and the Lord Stunfisk 252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 144-170 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- 41.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery? Am I missing something here?
I have also seen no mention of Autotomize Aggron, which sounds terrifying. Something like

Aggron @ Stone Plate
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Autotomize
- Head Smash
- Superpower / Low Kick / Substitute
- Ice Punch / Earthquake

I think it'd play like an even more offensive RP Rhydon, since it doesn't have as much raw bulk but makes up for it with absolutely absurd power. It gets up to 398 speed (aka faster than entire unboosted meta) even with Adamant, and as Punchshroom demonstrated, still is ridiculously powerful with only a Stone Plate boost. The coverage is a big toss up: you can run Low Kick+Ice Punch to hit weakened Lix, Golurk, Claydol, and Torterra, but at the cost of losing to any sort of Poliwrath and allowing a Klinklang to set up on you, Superpower+Ice Punch does all of the above and stops KK from setting up and hitting Ferroseed at the cost of being one-time use, weakening you sweep and making you even more susceptible to Ajet and Mach Punch. You can run Sub+EQ if you don't mind missing out on Torterra, though with a Sub up you beat pretty much everything else bar Gastrodon and Poliwrath. I haven't built a team around this set yet so it's mostly based on calcs and hard stats, but this set seems to have too much potential to have gone completely unnoticed.

tl;dr Aggron's moves of choice as stated in this thread seem weird, and no one seems to be using RP Aggron.



e: my b, fire punch hits ferro alongside torterra. still not worth imo especially if you use eq, since cb eq does a good chunk to ferro.

RP probably shouldn't run Heavy Slam, but I disagree with it being a wasted slot since having an 100% accurate STAB that's still really strong vs most Pokemon is really nice, though EQ is cool too for Garbo and even Skunk if you can't afford the Aftermath recoil

 

[Punchshroom]

Am I the only person that thinks people are running the wrong Aggron sets?
I can understand running Low Kick > Superpower (though I think Superpower is more worth it in a lot of situations due to being able to hit stuff like Gastro, Poliwrath, and Ferroseed harder) but what does Heavy Slam hit? It doesn't 2HKO anything better than Head Smash does, and doesn't hit most of the things that resist Head Smash as they either resist Heavy Slam itself (Lix, KK) or are too heavy to take notable damage from it (252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 117-138 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, for example. Head Smash, on the contrary, is a clean 2HKO.) IMO it's a wated slot and could go to something like EQ to hit Garb w/o recoil and chunk Lix/other Aggron without relying on a move that is 100% useless otherwise as well as chunk Poliwrath quite heavily (about 48%).

Heavy Slam is primarily used on the Choice Band set, giving it a more accurate powerful STAB with more PP, as well as the means to utterly crush Mega Audino. Other sets such as SubRise and Rock Polish don't really need it though, so you're right about that.

Meanwhile, Low Kick is preferred over Superpower not just because it doesn't lower stats, it also 2HKOes Steelix while not really affecting the Gastrodon / Poliwrath matchup at all. Both of those Pokemon take only a minimal amount more from Superpower than Head Smash (which means 2 Head Smashes > 2 Superpowers on them): defensive Gastrodon and Poliwrath pretty much don't see the difference, whereas offensive Poliwrath is cleanly 2HKOed by CB Head Smash as it is. With that said, if you want to hit Ferroseed that badly while not wasting a coverage slot on Fire Punch, you could consider Superpower.

tl;dr Aggron's moves of choice as stated in this thread seem weird, and no one seems to be using RP Aggron.

This is most likely because RP Aggron sits in an awkward place between Dual Dance Rhydon and Shell Smashers. Compared to Rhydon, Aggron may have more power, but has far fewer setup opportunities and cannot fall back on its dual STAB coverage alone (also Aggron lacks SD). Meanwhile, the Shell Smashers not only boost their power while increasing their Speed, they also sit in better Speed tiers. All of them are a lot more resilient to priority than Aggron is as well, either via bulk, lack of 4x resistances, or their own priority.

 

[cyanize]

Heavy Slam is primarily used on the Choice Band set, giving it a more accurate powerful STAB with more PP, as well as the means to utterly crush Mega Audino. Other sets such as SubRise and Rock Polish don't really need it though, so you're right about that.

I'd say the argument of PP is a pretty weak argument, since Choice mons that use their main stab as moves with 8 pp are not uncommon at all (Pyroar, Snow Warning Aurorus, Charizard, Combusken while not choiced only has 16 offensive PP on most sets, anything that uses Close Combat, Poliwrath etc.) These mons all have the POTENTIAL to outlive their STAB PP, they generally don't. This problem also doesn't stop them from using the move anyways. While you could argue "But they all use their secondary stab too!" that secondary STAB is weaker (except for Busken), and actually provides useful neutral coverage instead of being arguably worse to click as a Choiced mon.

On the subject of it hitting Mega Audino harder, I'm going to use something you said to me: it doesn't really affect the matchup at all. Not only do you still wall Defensive Audino bar the rare TWave Wishtect, you also cleanly 2hko even max/max+ Audino with CB Head Smash. And if you're worried about Offensive Povot doing a chunk to you, not only can you be assured that it won't be healing off the damage you give it, but 252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Audino: 292-345 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. I just don't get what purpose this serves over EQ, which has potential as a moveslot to hit Lix for a bit less than a fighting move, and solid damage on switchins bar Torterra, and hits things with Aftermath not only super effectively, but without taking damage on yourself. I could also argue that Heavy Slam is a much worse offensive type than EQ and is way easier to exploit since you're Choiced (stuff like any Water type ever, Golurk, Rotoms, Lix, and Torterra all switch in with ease, most of which take more damage from EQ and ALL of which take more damage from Head Smash anyways).

Meanwhile, Low Kick is preferred over Superpower not just because it doesn't lower stats, it also 2HKOes Steelix while not really affecting the Gastrodon / Poliwrath matchup at all. Both of those Pokemon take only a minimal amount more from Superpower than Head Smash (which means 2 Head Smashes > 2 Superpowers on them): defensive Gastrodon and Poliwrath pretty much don't see the difference, whereas offensive Poliwrath is cleanly 2HKOed by CB Head Smash as it is. With that said, if you want to hit Ferroseed that badly while not wasting a coverage slot on Fire Punch, you could consider Superpower.

Honestly, I wasn't even complaining about the use of Low Kick > Superpower, but I personally believe Superpower is more useful in most situations. First off, I'd say it does have an effect on the matchup vs Poliwrath and Gastro, since it does more damage than any of Aggron's other moves which kinda forces them to recover if they have a recovery move, and you're going to switch out against them anyways so what's the problem with having dropped stats? Also, pretty much any situation in which Head Smash would kill Gastro and Poli Superpower would also kill (252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Superpower vs. 220 HP / 168+ Def Gastrodon: 192-227 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery + -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Superpower vs. 220 HP / 168+ Def Gastrodon: 128-151 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery for approx. 85% damage vs 252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 220 HP / 168+ Def Gastrodon: 180-212 (43 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery for approx. 90% damage, not counting chance to miss). You also save your "precious" STAB PP by clicking Superpower instead.

Also, it's a lot harder to switch in to a -1 Superpower than a Low Kick on most 'mons. Say your opponent has a slightly chipped Lix and a Lanturn. You click Low Kick on [insert thing that dies to Aggron here] predicting Lix and it comes in, taking 55% from the attack. It's now in a position to die from another Low Kick, so they switch into their Lanturn which takes a pittance from Low Kick, and you are put in a defensive position that's actually pretty bad if you don't have any switchins to Lanturn.
Now say you have Superpower. You click Superpower on the Lix switchin and it does 55%. Then, your opponent, realizing that even a -1 Superpower will kill from a slightly chipped + hazards range, tries to switch in their Lanturn. Lanturn takes a HUGE 55% from -1 Superpower assuming it's AV, and you are still forced into a defensive position but a much better one since you have severely weakened Lanturn, especially if it's one with no recovery.
Even if they have a Fighting resist in this hypothetical situation, Superpower still does marginally more on resists (about 8% on some of the most common resists, like Mesprit, Xatu, and Weezing.) So that's not even a real argument either.
Again, I can completely see the merit of Low Kick on CB (forcing even full HP Lix to switch, giving you room to double) but I don't think Superpower should be completely counted out as an option for a Fighting-type slot.

Sorry for long post, I tend to get very eloquent when defending my reasoning ^_^;


also since no one argued against ice punch i guess i did good there

 

[Punchshroom]

I'd say the argument of PP is a pretty weak argument, since Choice mons that use their main stab as moves with 8 pp are not uncommon at all (Pyroar, Snow Warning Aurorus, Charizard, Combusken while not choiced only has 16 offensive PP on most sets, anything that uses Close Combat, Poliwrath etc.) These mons all have the POTENTIAL to outlive their STAB PP, they generally don't. This problem also doesn't stop them from using the move anyways. While you could argue "But they all use their secondary stab too!" that secondary STAB is weaker (except for Busken), and actually provides useful neutral coverage instead of being arguably worse to click as a Choiced mon.

On the subject of it hitting Mega Audino harder, I'm going to use something you said to me: it doesn't really affect the matchup at all. Not only do you still wall Defensive Audino bar the rare TWave Wishtect, you also cleanly 2hko even max/max+ Audino with CB Head Smash. And if you're worried about Offensive Povot doing a chunk to you, not only can you be assured that it won't be healing off the damage you give it, but 252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Audino: 292-345 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. I just don't get what purpose this serves over EQ, which has potential as a moveslot to hit Lix for a bit less than a fighting move, and solid damage on switchins bar Torterra, and hits things with Aftermath not only super effectively, but without taking damage on yourself. I could also argue that Heavy Slam is a much worse offensive type than EQ and is way easier to exploit since you're Choiced (stuff like any Water type ever, Golurk, Rotoms, Lix, and Torterra all switch in with ease, most of which take more damage from EQ and ALL of which take more damage from Head Smash anyways).

You're right that the PP argument is weak as far as Aggron generally surviving long enough to use them is concerned (I of all people know Aggron's longevity is really damn poor). However, having a powerful STAB move with accuracy and PP can matter when Aggron preys on two of the bulkiest mons in the tier: Mega Audino and Musharna. Relying on Head Smash alone to beat those Pokemon isn't foolproof as Aggron has to battle against accuracy, and even paralysis in Musharna's case; MAudino and Musharna can shave off at least 2-3 Head Smash PP off Aggron if they really want to (should they realize it's Aggron's only way of harming them), and possibly even more if Aggron starts to trip up. Having that extra PP to fulfill one of its primary wallbreaking roles doesn't hurt. Combined with the fact that there are more Head Smash resists with gigantic bulk / reliable recovery in the tier than Aggron would like (compared to the amount of Fire Blast / Blizzard resists with huge bulk / reliable recovery, meaning Aggron is at greater risk of being PP stalled out), plus the fact that Heavy Slam is a half-decent holepunching move in its own right (2HKOes Weezing and Vileplume, and 2HKOes Gourgeist-XL after SR), and Heavy Slam can still be a usable spammable attack for CB Aggron to fall back to.

Also, it's a lot harder to switch in to a -1 Superpower than a Low Kick on most 'mons. Say your opponent has a slightly chipped Lix and a Lanturn. You click Low Kick on [insert thing that dies to Aggron here] predicting Lix and it comes in, taking 55% from the attack. It's now in a position to die from another Low Kick, so they switch into their Lanturn which takes a pittance from Low Kick, and you are put in a defensive position that's actually pretty bad if you don't have any switchins to Lanturn.
Now say you have Superpower. You click Superpower on the Lix switchin and it does 55%. Then, your opponent, realizing that even a -1 Superpower will kill from a slightly chipped + hazards range, tries to switch in their Lanturn. Lanturn takes a HUGE 55% from -1 Superpower assuming it's AV, and you are still forced into a defensive position but a much better one since you have severely weakened Lanturn, especially if it's one with no recovery.

I mean this situation is realistic and all, but this scenario seems to support Earthquake more than Superpower :P

Gotta question the use of that specific Gastrodon spread in your calc when no concrete spread has yet to be finalized (Aggron is practically invalidated by more physically defensive Gastrodons, unless you choose to run Toxic). Other than that, valid reasoning otherwise.

 

[nomadderwhat]

When it comes to drops I really like what gastrodon has brought to the metagame. That thing is the noface (besides toxic i guess) to our favorite angler fish, which is an extremely dominant way of stealing momentum. The only thing is it happens to be so solid that many of the good players double switch for fear of it coming in. Would probably work best on big hazard teams to punish the doubles.

 

[Shadestep]

I think the meta has adapted to the new drops now, and the metagame seems pretty balanced as of now. I've been playing a lot recently and have experienced all three drops to fit into NU quite well. Aggron stands out the most, as it has the most offensive presence of them, and that's what people seem to be worried about the most. I personally think Gastrodon is the best drop of them as it shuts down so many Pokemon due to its excellent typing, Recover, and Storm Drain. It has the most impact on the meta as it 'forces' AV Lanturn to run HP Grass, same goes for Floatzel, and it makes Magmortar have to choose about another move of choice (not that none of these Mons ran HP Grass before, but it's far more common now). It's also incredibly annoying to switch into, it's kind-of the same as with Vileplume; there are very few 'safe' switch-ins as most of them have a good chance to get Statused (Burned in Gastro's case, Poisoned in Vileplume's case), which is very annoying for Offense teams lacking a Heal Beller. I've also been playing around with some slightly different sets than usual, so I'll post some of them here, since I hate this thread being dead.

Rotom @ Kasib Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 32 HP / 224 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split
Very cool set that should be used in combination with something that really appreciates opposing Ghost-types being gone (duh), like Hitmonchan, Steelix, and bulky CM Psychics. the spread always OHKOs both offensive Mismagius and 248 HP Rotom after stealth rock. it's a very neat tech, has great surprise factor and is able to effectively lure in things Mismagius, Rotom and Golurk. it also works well vs hazard-stacking teams as most of them rely on Rotom and/or their Rocky Helmet user (lol) to spinblock.

Kangaskhan @ Salac Berry
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Return
- Earthquake / Reversal
- Endeavor
everybody knows what SubSalac + Endeavor mons do and I'm definitely not the first person to find or use this on Kangaskhan but it works fantastic, especially with mons like Swellow, Hitmonchan or any other mon that struggles to break through bulky Poisons (Garbodor, Weezing, Vileplume) or bulky grounds. the set is standard, the only thing that im not too sure about is whether to use Earthquake or Reversal on this set. Reversal is a 200 BP Fighting move when you're at 1 HP, but at the other hand.. it is a contact move and when you're at 1 HP, you don't really want to take rocky helmet + aftermath damage from Garbodor. Reversal is also pretty weak unless you're superlow (it's only 80 BP when you're at 26%), so Earthquake seems like the most solid option.

Scyther @ Eviolite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- U-turn
- Swords Dance
- Roost
I'm not saying I invented this myself or anything, but it's pretty underrated imo. normally 248 HP is considered better on the Eviolite set, but max Atk is actually an amazing set. it does considerably more damage and if your standard phys.def mesprit takes way more than it usually does from Scyther's U-turn, 'ah he's scarfed, good to know' might be in the back of your opponents mind. this can mess their gameplan up as they think they can set up on an Aerial Ace 'locked-in' Scyther with say Musharna, which you can respond to by SD + U-turning and maybe getting a surprise KO. the decrease in bulk is unfortunate but it can still deal with Malamar and CM Psychics perfectly fine.

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Scald
- Air Slash
not sure if this is the right spread or not, but SubToxic Mantine dicks on normal Balance teams. it literally hard-walls Gastrodon (duh), and is very annoying to deal with for most teams. the combination of Toxic or Scald-burns + strong air slash (and some flinches, heh), can effectively mess with a lot of things on those type of teams. This set was hyped up a few metas back but it's definitely very good now too. thx evan for noticing it c:

I know these aren't some super epic innovations but i've been using them lately with great success and I think most of them (especially Mantine and Scyther) have become better as the meta has changed around a bit.

 

[Kiyo]

Time for some shameless self-advertising :] I made a quick video describing some easy to use ways to shut down Combusken+Xatu for those of you that are really struggling with it.

Expect a more detailed post by either myself, Raseri, or another council member regarding our opinions on the concerns raised in this thread, soon™

 

[Ren-chon]

Ok, so, can we just ban Chicken Pass already? This issue was already addressed by user rozes in his post but it seems that the topic died out pretty quickly, so well, here am I to bring it to the light again. Anyone who has been watching me play the last few weeks (aka since drops) noticed that Ive been only using the EXACT SAME TEAM over and over again. Guess what team is it? Chicken Pass. So yeah, I do have some experience to talk about it. Unfortunately this post will basically talk about the possibility of a really complex ban so if you're not a fan of it, may as well skip this message!

To start things out, Xatu (the main receiver) IS NOT broken. Combusken (the "Chicken" in Chicken Pass) IS NOT broken. Baton Pass (with the new clauses) IS NOT broken. Combusken + Xatu IS NOT broken. But Combusken + Baton Pass + Xatu IS broken. And what's worse is that this is not something that shapes the meta or that's too much in the spotlights, which means that no one prepares for it. You either score a crit or may as well forfeit. The team I've been using consists of Sash Archeops + Screens Swoobat + Memento Cottonee + Barbaracle + Combusken + Kee Berry Xatu and while it offer Screens and Memento support to make the whole thing works, rozes posted a normal team showcasing this core too, making it clear that you don't need to make a whole team around these two. I've seen people with Liepard lose, people with Malamar, Steelix, Aggron... Hell, I once almost 6-0'd a team with Xatu being at -4 Spe due to Rock Tomb Lead Aurorus (that I succefully setupped CM on). Anyway, if you didn't get it yet, the point is that CombuPass is a REALLY cheap strategy that already saw success in this tier before when BU Pass was available (or it was in RU, I dont remember).

I don't have replays rn but as I said, anyone who saw me using the team might've realized how retarded this strategy is. Now, to adress specifically as to WHY this is broken: think about Xatu's strongest counters or checks: Steelix, Skuntank, Rotom, Kabutops, Aggron, Manectric, Malamar... The list goes on and on. Noticed a common aspect between then? Yeah: they either rely on abusing Xatu's subpar Defense and uninvested, or hitting him with a strong special move before he start CMing, and both while also potentially abusing his bad uninvested Spe. Combusken totally nullifies all of them: He can WoW a strong physical hitter, provide speed boosts so Xatu can CM before being hit, and most of the times also passing a sub (and if you broke Combusken's sub, chances are that you're either a burnt physical hitter or a now slower special 'mon whom Xatu can setup 1v1). And yes, this is one of those strategies that you either instantly lose or instantly win, but honestly chances are that you'll just win if you play it well, and with play it well I mean having more than 1/4 of a functional rat brain and at the very least a pair of sticks as arms to operate your mouse (actually, tetraplegic people can already move a mouse cursor with their minds so you don't even need functional limbs to win with it).

And well, yeah, I do know that banning BPass from Combusken might imply in some other cores dying like Combu + Lilligant but honestly, Chicken + Xatu is just so much of an annoying, cheap, broken strategy that it overwhelms any potential non-broken CombuPass cores and as so needs to be, unfortunately, banned in my opinion. Well, this post is just my opinion as someone who has been abusing this strategy for a while (which is 2-1 in OU, 2-0 in UU and 3-1 in RU, by the way!) and would like it to at least be considered by the NU Council as a potentially unhealthy/unfunny aspect of the tier, as well as be discussed by the community in general! Btw, did you guys know that Adamant Band Darumaka outdamages Adamant Band Terrakion? This thing is crazy omfg.

The team I used

Barbaracle @ White Herb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Razor Shell
- Stone Edge
- Cross Chop
- Shell Smash

Archeops @ Focus Sash
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Head Smash
- Stealth Rock
- Endeavor

Swoobat @ Light Clay
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Tailwind

Cottonee @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Stun Spore
- Tailwind
- Memento

Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

Xatu @ Kee Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 4 SpD / 12 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Signal Beam
- Roost

Original version had BD Smeargle>Barb but it doesn't matter honestly. I guess the fact that I used BD offensive Smeargle shows that even with only 5 mons this strategy is broken... ._.

Kiyo's vid
Honestly, screw you. I took some time off of my PC while I was writing this post, and when I went to check if there were any new messages before posting it, you come up with a freaking vid about beating this strategy ;_; Anyway, lgi anti-ChickenPass people!

First of all, Clear Smog thing: Yeah, while this has a cool distribution and all, let's not forget that you're giving up a generally more useful move (like Toxic/Curse on Gastro, Focus Blast/HP Grass/EQ on Magmortar, Focus Blast/Seed Bomb/Rock Blast on Garbodor, and the list goes on, also added to that is the fact that you actually have to break the sub first which some 'mons might not be able to) in lieu of preparing for a not so common, but still annoying, strategy. Same for Haze, but with a worse distribution (that I gotta agree, is compensated by its consistency in beating Chicken Pass). Dragon Tail is an even worse case in your example: You're basically giving up on Toxic, Taunt or Stone Edge on Steelix to use something whose overall consistency (aka being used for things other than Combu + Xatu) can only be explained in a heavy hazard stack team @_@ And well, won't use the accuracy factor to support my point because that'd be honestly dumb of me.

As for Shedinja + Prinplup... I know you tried to show ways to beat it, but this is just a REALLY niche strategy that's been only showed in like, 3 teams through the course of Gen 6 NU's story. So yeah, it beats Combu + Xatu, but if we're going as far as fitting Shedinja + Prinplup (+ Xatu) having ChickenPass in mind then it just showcases its brokenness D:

And as for CB Aggron, I basically covered it before ("and if you broke Combusken's sub, chances are that you're either a burnt physical hitter or a now slower special 'mon whom Xatu can setup 1v1"). CB Aggron is actually one of the few heavy hitters who has a shot at beating it but IF it's not burnt but yeah, point for you on that one.

Now, all that being said, Kiyo showed a total of 5 ways to beat ChickenPass: 3 that make you give up on a usually overall more useful move (2 not being 100% stops), 1 that's maybe nowadays even more uncommon than ChickenPass itself and that needs quite heavy team support, and one that's indeed solid if you play well with it. Maybe I was too harsh when talking about ChickenPass to Xatu. Maybe this is not broken. But one thing for sure: this is extremelly unfunny to play against and most of the time just turn matches into a "you have THAT ONE specific counter for it or you lose" kind of thing. At this point, what is in play is the overall enjoyment aspect of NU as this strategy spreads more and more.

@EDIT
User (or alt, idk ;_;) PursuitOfHappiny pointed out that CB Aggron actually still KOs with burn so yeah, my bad.

 

[erisia]

Having used BuskenPass myself for a little bit I don't think it's as broken as I thought it was, but I still think it's suspect worthy. Kiyo's video is excellent and shows that you can pack answers to the strategy without having to gimp your team in other aspects (clear smog magmortar / gastrodon and haze mantine are good fits that are useful for other boosting sweepers too). However, at least from my point of view, BuskenPass hasn't been common enough to be worth investing in countermeasures unless you were already going to run them for a more common setup sweeper. I might not be high enough on the ladder to see this though so take it with a pinch of salt. The suspect worthy part of it to me is that Combusken doesn't have to spend any turns to pass +6 Speed and can do more productive things than use boosting moves; that alone strikes me as unbalanced in this metagame.

 

[Mysil]

Thoughts on banning damp rock? Either you prepare for rain, or you prepare for everything else. Teambuliding gets very restrictive if you want to prepare for both. Imo chickenpass and rain are very similar in that regard, because both of them demand that you pack very specific counters if you want to win.

 

[Deeerpz]

Not necessary at all in my opinion. There are loads of ways to play around rain in Taunt, Encore, Water Absorb, Storm Drain, Priority moves, stalling out rain turns... And that's just off the top of my head. Rain has a lot of counterplay, and I honestly think NU becomes even more stale than it already is if we keep banning everything that requires a little bit of preperation. The point is to ban broken, overcentralizing stuff, and rain fits neither of those categories.

 

[erisia]

Yeah, Rain has a lot more counterplay because you can stall it out, block it completely with Abomasnow / Aurorus, get Toxic Spikes + Fake Out damage. I agree that Rain is quite strong but you don't have to build specifically to beat it, so I think it's fine in my books. It's probably one of the stronger strategies but there's nothing uncompetitive about it; you have to play well to keep your weather up and make the most of it against a prepared opponent that's likely faced the same team before. Same goes for Sun.

 

[Shadestep]

Yeah rain and/or damp rock definitely isn't broken.

Either you prepare for rain, or you prepare for everything else.

How so? Lots of Pokemon that can check or counter rain Mons relatively well, like Ferroseed, Lanturn or Gastrodon, are mons are absolutely not used purely to check rain. they check a big portion of the metagame, which is why they are so popular. part of playing vs rain is that it requires some (note, some) prediction to play around it and waste rain turns, which isn't too hard. Rain is very threatening to Offense-teams mostly, but it's nowhere near broken. You don't need to pack 'specific counters' to rain that you wouldnt run otherwise. standard kangaspikes also has amazing matchup vs most rain teams as Toxic Spikes + wasting turns with Fake Out gives you the upper hand quite easily.

 

[Mysil]

Yeah rain and/or damp rock definitely isn't broken.

How so? Lots of Pokemon that can check or counter rain Mons relatively well, like Ferroseed, Lanturn or Gastrodon, are mons are absolutely not used purely to check rain. they check a big portion of the metagame, which is why they are so popular. part of playing vs rain is that it requires some (note, some) prediction to play around it and waste rain turns, which isn't too hard. Rain is very threatening to Offense-teams mostly, but it's nowhere near broken. You don't need to pack 'specific counters' to rain that you wouldnt run otherwise. standard kangaspikes also has amazing matchup vs most rain teams as Toxic Spikes + wasting turns with Fake Out gives you the upper hand quite easily.

I agree with everything you say. What I meant was that rain is a playstyle that is 99% matchup reliant. If you have a well built team with gastrodon, or ferroseed or abomasnow etc you will win against rain. If you dont, you will most likely loose. I`ll admit there are a good chunk of pokemon that do well against rain, but I find myself in situations all the time where I have managed to build a nice looking team, and then I go on the ladder and it matches up well against most playstyles, great:] But then comes the rain team and I can see just from team preview that im going to loose. Its one of those things where you get annoyed when you lose to it, because its so cheap. I get the same feeling when I lose to chicken pass.

I suppose that doesnt make it broken, but there is a reason why people who bring rain to tournament matches get flamed. Its a desperate gamble. Its like you dont trust your own abilities, so you roll the dice and hope the opponent doesnt bring Abomasnow. Its just gay

 

[Deeerpz]

I hate losing to Kangaspikes, CroDino, Malamar, normal spam. All of those tactics feel very "cheap" to me - but much like rain, they have counterplay, and it is my own fault for not preparing for those in my teams if I lose to them.

Pokemon is a game where you can never build a team that is prepared for the entirety of the meta. Much like in card games like Hearthstone and MTG, you are bound to lose some games solely based on matchups. A giant feat of a good player is being able to recognize meta trends and build a team that capitalizes on those trends. If you win over 70% of your ladder games in the long run, you are doing really well. You are not supposed to win all of them.

Rain is a very specific niche, but it is not unlike other threats that you have to account for. If you want a sucessful team and Rain is very present on the ladder, you best prepare for it. If it is not and you lose the occasional game to a rain team because you did not specifically prepare for it, then that is exactly what was supposed to happen.

I agree it is more matchup dependent than most teams, but in reality, a lot of archetypes are. Maybe not as heavily, but still.

Also I think people who flame people who bring rain teams to tournament matches really need to check themselves. Jesus fuck, it is a game and it is not unheard of that people use cheap strategies for easy wins. Again: either you prepare for it, or you didnt deserve to win. Thats just my 2ct though.

 

[ryan]

When Combusken pass becomes dominant enough that people are asking for a suspect, sacrificing one out of twenty-four moves on your team to take care of it is worth it. Can you call another move more useful when it doesn't beat something that you otherwise could not beat? You cannot refuse to utilize viable counter-play because you feel you shouldn't have to. It's not like you're being asked to run Bronzor on your team to beat this strategy. You have to forfeit an often low-impact move in exchange for another move that has practical use outside of beating Combusken pass.

I wouldn't mind a suspect on Combusken pass, but you can't argue that counter-play is impossible, especially when presented multiple low-effort options.

The real issue with Combusken pass is that it's just too consistent, even when the opponent carries something to beat the strategy. Combusken and Xatu make up two out of six slots on your team, and they both have uses outside of this isolated strategy. Xatu is a good Pokemon regardless of the set it uses because its mere presence forces the opponent to play awkwardly in response to it. Meanwhile, Speed is the most important stat in the game, and Combusken can pass to anything on your team to make it instantly more threatening. Even if it only manages to pass a couple of boosts and a Substitute, it just managed to get an offensive Pokemon into play with twice or more of its original Speed and without taking any damage.

This archetype isn't a gimmick like plenty of Baton Pass strategies throughout the years; you aren't forced to run more support in the other four slots and can instead opt to run other viable Pokemon that can take advantage of Combusken's utility without requiring it in order to function. What I'm getting at here is that I recognize that this strategy is far too consistent for the low amount of effort that the members of the team and the player have to put in to make it succeed.

For now, this archetype is used in this tier, and not preparing for it is your prerogative. But don't expect sympathy when you lose to a strategy you refuse to prepare for.

 

[Deeerpz]

Just a quick question: what exactly would be suspected anyways?

You could suspect passing speed boosts in general, but that makes low impact mons like Ninjask even more niche. It seems like Combusken is the issue because of the decent defensive typing and its general utility outside of speed passing, but then again, it would be a shame if we lost his other fun sets (who I think are much more fun to play, and play against). Is there a possibility to ban speed passing specifically on him? Could you just ban Combusken from using BP? How would the tier leaders go about this?

 

[erisia]

Having heard about it from Advantage, I decided to give Ninjask-pass a shot to see how much worse it was than Busken-Pass, and the answer was not too much worse. While Ninjask obviously has a Stealth Rock problem, keeping them off the field isn't ridiculously hard if you have a suicide lead like Archeops or another fast Taunt user like Floatzel / Mismagius (Xatu can also switch into some Stealth Rock users like Ferroseed). In addition, sometimes Stealth Rock isn't enough to stop Ninjask as Lefties still lets it make enough Subs to get up to + 6 if required. Meanwhile, it has the Speed to immediately start setting up on Floatzel and up with only 24 Speed EVs, the rest can go in physical bulk to take 4x resisted attacks better and make better use of Memento / Will-O-Wisp support from Mismagius. X-Scissor can also be handy for taking down Malamar, Shiftry, Jynx, and others. While Combusken's bulk and typing means it usually gets to preserve a Substitute more easily, Ninjask is still a fine Speed-passer and can still win games with Malamar / Xatu. Here's the set I used below and some replays; the Adamant nature guarantees a OHKO on +0 Malamar.

Ninjask @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Protect
- X-Scissor
- Baton Pass

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-379206189
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-379186616
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-379183871

I think Speed Boost + Baton Pass should be the suspect under consideration here. Ninjask is a little harder to use but can still pull off the combo pretty reliably and even does better than Combusken in a few scenarios (can switch into Primeape for instance, Sub won't break on Hitmonchan's Mach Punch).

 

[Aberforth]

Never has a strategy with more instances of being broken been nerfed so much rather than actually being banned. In order to keep a broken move in the metagame, we now have it so that:

1. You cannot have more than one user of it on the team.
2. You cannot use it with boosts of speed and something else at the same time.

and soon we might have

3. You cannot use it alongside a pokemon with speed boost.

And that's not even mentioning the previous bans on smashpass and combusken as a result of passing that are now part of the first two clauses.

Just suspect the actual problem, this dancing around it has resulted in Baton Pass adapting so that it is a problem again and again and again over and over again. Baton Pass has proved on multiple occasions that it should just be outright banned, but we've continuously nerf'd it rather than actually deal with the problem. This is pretty much word for word what PU are trying to do with Dynamic Punch and everyone's saying they shouldn't do that, but Baton Pass getting yet another thing added to its clause so that we can keep it in the metagame another few months before cosmic power passing or something becomes too strong is somehow seen as fine.

Just ban Baton Pass already, its been broken so many times now and its just going to continue to be broken in the future.

 

[Teddeh]

Never has a strategy with more instances of being broken been nerfed so much rather than actually being banned. In order to keep a broken move in the metagame, we now have it so that:

1. You cannot have more than one user of it on the team.
2. You cannot use it with boosts of speed and something else at the same time.

and soon we might have

3. You cannot use it alongside a pokemon with speed boost.

And that's not even mentioning the previous bans on smashpass and combusken as a result of passing that are now part of the first two clauses.

Just suspect the actual problem, this dancing around it has resulted in Baton Pass adapting so that it is a problem again and again and again over and over again. Baton Pass has proved on multiple occasions that it should just be outright banned, but we've continuously nerf'd it rather than actually deal with the problem. This is pretty much word for word what PU are trying to do with Dynamic Punch and everyone's saying they shouldn't do that, but Baton Pass getting yet another thing added to its clause so that we can keep it in the metagame another few months before cosmic power passing or something becomes too strong is somehow seen as fine.

Just ban Baton Pass already, its been broken so many times now and its just going to continue to be broken in the future.

But it's not broken on every pokemon so clearly it's not the move that should be broken, it's the pokemon. You don't see baton pass eevee being a problem do you?

 

[Aberforth]

It has enough instances where it has shown it is a problem that I feel its indicative of the move being inherently broken. Dpunch is broken on machoke, Baton pass is so far broken on huntail, gorebyss, combusken, whirlipede and all the examples in higher tiers as well.

 

[MZ]

It has enough instances where it has shown it is a problem that I feel its indicative of the move being inherently broken. Dpunch is broken on machoke, Baton pass is so far broken on huntail, gorebyss, combusken, whirlipede and all the examples in higher tiers as well.

Except over 50 Pokemon get baton pass so at what point can you just give these few examples and decide to nerf all users? Plus Scolipede gets it, not whirlipede, and I don't remember anybody trying to ban Scolipede from OU (maybe UU but that shouldnt really count). So you have about 3/50, which is a lower percentage than the 1/5 ratio of Pokemon with No Guard + Dynamicpunch who are also broken.
Plus this is NU and Dpunch isn't relevant here again

 

[AM]

BP the move shouldve been banned. The complex ban that was associated with it in OU that took over a year and a half for upper staff to figure out was largely a massive waste of effort and time. Most BP related problems at the root of the core are problematic due to Baton Pass the move itself. Complex banning is getting ridicolous now with everyone feeling like a special snowflake to justify whatever they want due to our ability to accept complex bans as a norm. Read the confusion and dynamicpunch thread as examples.

I wanted to bring this up because Im reading a couple of references to OU and its tiring to read how 2 or so years later we still dance around this issue in certain instances like this discussion because we dont acknowledge simple and straightforward bans, just partial bans to please the masses.

 

[QT]

But it's not broken on every pokemon so clearly it's not the move that should be broken, it's the pokemon. You don't see baton pass eevee being a problem do you?

That's not a good argument, though. Just because it something isn't broken on every offender doesn't mean it isn't ban worthy- no on would ever suggest that magikarp was broken in BW OU even when paired with politoed, and yet drizzle+SS was still illegal. It doesn't (or at least it shouldn't) have to be broken on every user, or else nothing that isn't learned by 2/3 Pokemon ever could be.

Except over 50 Pokemon get baton pass so at what point can you just give these few examples and decide to nerf all users? Plus Scolipede gets it, not whirlipede, and I don't remember anybody trying to ban Scolipede from OU (maybe UU but that shouldnt really count). So you have about 3/50, which is a lower percentage than the 1/5 ratio of Pokemon with No Guard + Dynamicpunch who are also broken.
Plus this is NU and Dpunch isn't relevant here again

If passing speed+sub to Xatu makes it broken, then speed boost shouldn't be the only thing that is banned, it should be all baton pass with speed. While you do have to force a switch and agility is far inferior to speed boost for baton pass purposes, the result is all that matters, and if the end result is broken (speed boosted Xatu), then you wasting a slot isn't particularly important. I mean, yes, there's a major opportunity cost if they can deal with it, but even chicken pass has that.