np: NU Stage 0 - For What It's Worth

[Style_Dota]

Molt, Hail got banned remember?

Anyway, as far as spinners go, Crygonal is definitely one of the best in the tier. Although it's SR weak, it's immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, something that the other spinners in NU can not claim. It's also pretty darn fast and has the capabilities for some offensive presence.

Wartortle isn't as bad as Tentacool, but it definitely isn't that good either. You're better off running the big Luvdisc if you want a bulky Water, since all Wartortle does is die.

On the topic of Sub/Seeders, has anyone tried out the Harvest Sub Seeders? Exeggutor and Tropius (more Exeggutor) can be pretty damn annoying at times.

Also, FUCK DUGTRIO, I am glad that mofo is leaving NU

 

[Endorfins]

Yes, I remember...
Dual Screens SubSeed Serperior was the only poke that was preventing your team from getting wrecked by strong attackers but you didnt have many set up sweepers iirc. And it was so hard to kill, luckily I did have Cryogonal instead of Wartortle :P

 

[Sabinfrost]

Yes, I remember...
Dual Screens SubSeed Serperior was the only poke that was preventing your team from getting wrecked by strong attackers but you didnt have many set up sweepers iirc. And it was so hard to kill, luckily I did have Cryogonal instead of Wartortle :P

That team sets up a sweep by removing threats, it has a fair few ways to cripple walls and enemy sweepers, as well as Hypno/Miltank who make a really good duo for sucking up damage, healing and spreading paralysis. I find the screens help a lot.

Molt, Hail got banned remember?

Anyway, as far as spinners go, Crygonal is definitely one of the best in the tier. Although it's SR weak, it's immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, something that the other spinners in NU can not claim. It's also pretty darn fast and has the capabilities for some offensive presence.

Tentacool may be bad, but one thing it does do is suck up Toxic Spikes, I really like having a poison type that doesn't fly for that purpose generally (though not tentacool).

 

[Molk]

That team sets up a sweep by removing threats, it has a fair few ways to cripple walls and enemy sweepers, as well as Hypno/Miltank who make a really good duo for sucking up damage, healing and spreading paralysis. I find the screens help a lot.



Tentacool may be bad, but one thing it does do is suck up Toxic Spikes, I really like having a poison type that doesn't fly for that purpose generally (though not tentacool).

yes but why use tentacool, when you can use muk or some other poison-type?

muk is still bulkier and can set up with curse, and once again, cryogonal is immune to toxic spikes and spins them away, making tentacool completely pointless......

 

[Endorfins]

Toxic Spikes are such a waste in NU, there are so many poison types whether they be Roselia or the soon leaving Scolipede, setting up Toxic Spikes is such a pointless endeavor. Hypno is also a pretty underrated Pokemon, it has good defenses and can pass pretty large wishes although Alomomola competes with it in the Wishpassing department.

 

[Sabinfrost]

Toxic Spikes are such a waste in NU, there are so many poison types whether they be Roselia or the soon leaving Scolipede, setting up Toxic Spikes is such a pointless endeavor. Hypno is also a pretty underrated Pokemon, it has good defenses and can pass pretty large wishes although Alomomola competes with it in the Wishpassing department.

I agree on Toxic Spikes,

I never said you should use Tentacool @MoltenKyurem I said "(though not tentacool)" I was just pointing out one of his very few perks is sucking up toxic spikes.

Lickilicky is one of the best wishpassers with the new mechanic. It's my opinion when Slowking moves Hypno will largely replace him in the same role.

 

[jake]

It's my opinion when Slowking moves Hypno will largely replace him in the same role.

Slowking's Water-typing, Regenerator, Scald, superior defenses, and instant recovery all prevent me from agreeing. Sure, Hypno will fill the space as "bulky Psychic" but as far as I know, people would rather have a bulky Water with some of the assets Slowking had to check stuff like Magmortar, Gorebyss, etc. Some people might go and rely on him but I don't think most will. Also I'm thinking Toxic Spikes will be significantly better after the shifts, considering that most teams will be hyper-offensive and will rely on Gorebyss, Leafeon, Absol, and the like which are all worn down significantly by Toxic damage - plus Klinklang, Magneton, and Scolipede are all likely to go (and who knows what else?).

 

[elchupo]

I dunno about anyone else, but the majority of the Slowkings I see are not of the bulky variety at all, instead mostly all being Spec'ed or vaguely bulky offense. So Hypno won't really usurp Slowkings role as anything, unless someone decides that Choice Specs Hypno is the destroyer of worlds and decides to try it.

Edit: Also, when talking about bulky Psychics, Musharna has Hypno beaten in every possible regard, bar Wish. Better defences on both sides of the spectrum, and the ability to actually, y'know, hurt stuff with its sexy base 107 SpA.

 

[Lou Cypher]

Unless I'm mistaken, Gardevoir is also down in this tier and while its defense is lacking, it does have a boatload of options available to it that Musharna could only dream of such as Willowisp, Thunderbolt, Destiny Bond, Memento, Trick...
It also has 80 base speed which while not stellar enables it to pull a Trickscarf set off for a more offensive route. To top it off it has 125 SP ATK, which should make up for the fact that physically it's quite a bit frailer then Musharna. Not sure if on the Special front Musharna is bulkier, while Gardevoir has low HP, it does have higher SP DEF (115 vs 97).
Just throwing this out there.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Gardevoir kind of suffers from not being nearly as bulky as Musharna, as well as having Wish as its only ideal recovery - hardly ideal on a mon that frail, which needs all of its moveslots. Gardevoir also has to compete with Mesprit, which is a lot more threatening.

Duosion is also a threatening Psychic that's really bulky and has instant recovery and Magic Guard but really what Slowking was on your team for was the value it brought as a bulky water - the ability to stop things like Magmortar, Klinklang and Gorebyss cold.

 

[canno]

Beheeyem is pretty decent, being slightly less bulky than Eviolite Duosion, but gets Leftovers. Meanwhile, he is more bulky than LO Trick Room Duosion, but he doesn't have Magic Guard to prevent LO damage. Also, he gets Nasty Plot, which is something Duosion doesn't get.

 

[Sabinfrost]

Slowking's Water-typing, Regenerator, Scald, superior defenses, and instant recovery all prevent me from agreeing. Sure, Hypno will fill the space as "bulky Psychic" but as far as I know, people would rather have a bulky Water with some of the assets Slowking had to check stuff like Magmortar, Gorebyss, etc. Some people might go and rely on him but I don't think most will. Also I'm thinking Toxic Spikes will be significantly better after the shifts, considering that most teams will be hyper-offensive and will rely on Gorebyss, Leafeon, Absol, and the like which are all worn down significantly by Toxic damage - plus Klinklang, Magneton, and Scolipede are all likely to go (and who knows what else?).

Water can be a bad thing for a special wall, especially with lingering threats like Elektross and Magneton having high power electric moves. Superior defenses? Slowking is 95/80/110, Hypno is 85/70/115. Hypno actually has higher special defense.

He doesn't have instant recovery, but he can wish/protect, combined with his decent health pool and the extra turn of leftovers protect provides, his recovery is decent.

Regenerator is really great, but the ability to ignore either flinch or sleep is not useless, Hypno also has access to taunt and screens and while he isn't fast, he's considerably quicker than Slowking.

 

[Oh My Biscuits]

The extra HP actually allows Slowking to wall special attacks better than Hypno. If you don't believe me, refer to the Gen. V defense tier chart.

 

[jake]

95 x 110 = 10450
85 x 115 = 9775

Slowking's higher HP makes up for the slightly less SpD and it has significantly better physical bulk as well. So yes, it has superior defenses all-around. And I'd rather take one-turn recovery + Regenerator over a pitiful Wish anyway; if I wanted to use something with Wish I'd use Lickilicky (which I also think is a superior wall compared to Hypno). Flinching moves are hardly common in NU and the only common Sleep move you'll see is Smeargle's Spore (and Smeargle does whatever the hell it wants against Hypno anyway). You don't need to be fast when you're tanking hits, btw.

Water-typing is superb and has been proven to be so every generation. Slowking walls a shit ton more than Hypno ever would just because it's Water-type; stuff like Gorebyss are having a hell of a lot harder time beating Slowking than Hypno any day.

edit: lol partially ninja'd but not really

 

[Molk]

ummm, hypno has access to taunt, thats something it has over slowking and lickilicky.

it also means hypno walks all over non fear smeargle :D

i think hypno honestly has potential, it has a pretty good movepool and defense, it could make a decent support mon after the tier shifts

 

[jake]

ummm, hypno has access to taunt, thats something it has over slowking and lickilicky.

it also means hypno walks all over non fear smeargle :D

i think hypno honestly has potential, it has a pretty good movepool and defense, it could make a decent support mon after the tier shifts

aye but what are you taunting? hypno is significantly slower than smeargle meaning it's getting at least one layer up if not two (if it predicts the switch-in and doesn't spore) or perhaps even gets a qd/gear shift pass off. and if you psychic it, it's still getting up a couple layers.

 

[Sabinfrost]

ummm, hypno has access to taunt, thats something it has over slowking and lickilicky.

it also means hypno walks all over non fear smeargle :D

i think hypno honestly has potential, it has a pretty good movepool and defense, it could make a decent support mon after the tier shifts

This.

If you can't see the value in wish/protect for anything other than wish passing, I don't know what to say. Hypno doesn't run wish for healing others (though he can, often the turn before you fodder him), he mostly uses it to heal and stall. Protect allows him to accumulate more toxic damage, scout moves, stall out outrage turns... it's far from a waste of a moveslot.

 

[jake]

This.

If you can't see the value in wish/protect for anything other than wish passing, I don't know what to say. Hypno doesn't run wish for healing others (though he can, often the turn before you fodder him), he mostly uses it to heal and stall. Protect allows him to accumulate more toxic damage, scout moves, stall out outrage turns... it's far from a waste of a moveslot.

yes but i don't know what hypno has over lickilicky even in that regard :/ it's more like "there are other things that do what hypno does better" in every scenario and even in those niches that hypno has to itself (taunt) it's kinda not very useful.

 

[Molk]

yes but i don't know what hypno has over lickilicky even in that regard :/ it's more like "there are other things that do what hypno does better" in every scenario and even in those niches that hypno has to itself (taunt) it's kinda not very useful.

hypno also has a fighting resistance as well, something lickilicky doesnt have,

hypno has resistances it can switch in on, access to thunder wave, screens, and psychic stab, hypno has its little perks.

 

[breh]

iirc sabinfrost uses wish/protect/toxic/stoss (am I right?)

this is indeed done better by lickilicky. fighting resist is kind of pointless when the only fighting type people ever use is sawk (maybe the odd throh?) and that's really easy to work around with protect.

 

[Sabinfrost]

iirc sabinfrost uses wish/protect/toxic/stoss (am I right?)

this is indeed done better by lickilicky. fighting resist is kind of pointless when the only fighting type people ever use is sawk (maybe the odd throh?) and that's really easy to work around with protect.

Wish/Protect/T-Wave/S-Toss I think, with a physically defensive Miltank running Rocks, Body Slam, Heal Bell, Milk Drink. I have sweepers that appreciate paralysis.

Fighting resist is far from useless, LOTS of people run Sawk and Emboar, and plenty of people pack fighting coverage moves for Steel/Bulky normals. Resisting psychic is really useful, especially with the likes of Mespirit, if he's choiced you can protect to scout the trick.

 

[Leman]

Im confused. None of the suggested options stand up to the tiers best threats nearly as well as Slowking did. Modest LO Magmortar 2HKOs them all with Fire Blast, none of them can switch in on any of Gorebyss's moves, besides Shell Smash, and they still have trouble taking on Exeggutor (granted so did Slowking but he did very well against the other two) on top of being plain just bulkier and more flexible than any of the specially bulky Pokemon we have left. Of course we can't find one catch all check for all of the threats (ie finding something that can 100% replace slowking is impossible) in the tier now but bringing up pokemon who have a hard time dealing with the best special attackers is silly.

 

[Sabinfrost]

Im confused. None of the suggested options stand up to the tiers best threats nearly as well as Slowking did. Modest LO Magmortar 2HKOs them all with Fire Blast, none of them can switch in on any of Gorebyss's moves, besides Shell Smash, and they still have trouble taking on Exeggutor (granted so did Slowking but he did very well against the other two) on top of being plain just bulkier and more flexible than any of the specially bulky Pokemon we have left. Of course we can't find one catch all check for all of the threats (ie finding something that can 100% replace slowking is impossible) in the tier now but bringing up pokemon who have a hard time dealing with the best special attackers is silly.

Modest LO Magmortar is one of the most powerful special attackers in the tier, and not a lot would wall it, perhaps specially defensive Miltank due to Thick Fat, it would still take a huge chunk from focus blast if it hit though. Modest LO Magmortar hates priority though, and Scarfers easily revenge kill it. Fire blast also has a bad habit of missing. Shell Smash Gorebyss is incredibly hard to deal with, a second Shell Smash practically ensures it will outspeed and kill anything. Currently Slowking can't wall Huntail due to Crunch after Shell Smash.

 

[Raikaria]

Duosion is also a threatening Psychic that's really bulky and has instant recovery and Magic Guard but really what Slowking was on your team for was the value it brought as a bulky water - the ability to stop things like Magmortar, Klinklang and Gorebyss cold.

Klingklang can break through Slowking with Return, provided Scald dosen't burn it. Gorebyss often runs HP Grass or HP Electric, and can get through Slowking with either after a Shell Smash, remember, 'Byss has some decent bulk, and most Smashers carry White Herb. I'm pretty sure Psychic isn't a OHKO, but a super-effective +2 Hidden Power is a 2HKO.

 

[Sabinfrost]

Klingklang can break through Slowking with Return, provided Scald dosen't burn it. Gorebyss often runs HP Grass or HP Electric, and can get through Slowking with either after a Shell Smash, remember, 'Byss has some decent bulk, and most Smashers carry White Herb. I'm pretty sure Psychic isn't a OHKO, but a super-effective +2 Hidden Power is a 2HKO.

I've fought Gorebyss running Shadow Ball before, purely for Slowking, it will easily outspeed Slowking, even before the boost, so if it boosts as Slowking comes in, it can easily manage to live any hit and ohko it. Offensive trick Room Slowking is more of an issue for it as it can take a hit, set up trick room and deal with it. That particular Gorebyss set is easily dealt with by steel types however.

EDIT: Just had a thought, Frillish could potentially do what Slowking does, it has recovery, fighting/normal and water immunity, and it has decent special bulk after eviolite. It also has access to Pain Split (potentially useful with it's low HP), taunt, Will - O - Wisp and Night Shade for reliable damage output outside of normal types.