np: LC - Tiny Dancer (VOTE HERE)

[Crux]

To be honest I don't think anything needs to be nominated at this point. I've found that things like Meditite and Zuruggu are just good Pokemon at the moment, not particularly worth banning. As the metagame develops, new sets and threats may be discovered, however at the moment no Pokemon deserves a ban in my opinion.

Whilst it is true that Pokemon like Zuruggu are very difficult to stop in conjunction with Evolution Stone, it is nowhere near as difficult as people are making it out to be. As EM said, just keep it in mind whilst team building if you are having issues (CHOBOMAKI COUNTERS +3 ZURUGGU.)

In terms of Evolution Stone, I personally think it adds depth to the metagame. Whilst some may think that this movement away from hyper offense is a bad thing, I personally think the diversity of play styles that Evolution Stone allows is far more interesting than the fast paced metagame that LC has been previously.

Evolution Stone makes stall and balanced teams far more viable in Little Cup, and that is something that I want to experiment with.

 

[MapleSandwich]

I am agreeing with the more conservative viewpoint at the moment. Although I suck at LC in general (Trick Room is my general method), my long years of experience playing the game competitively (since 3rd gen) have shown that it really takes more than 2 months to see if something is broken or not. After all, who's to say that a good Zuruggu counter won't be worked out tomorrow? We simply have not experimented with all possible permutations enough to make any definite statements about whether or not things are broken. Being stuck in the hyper offensive 4th gen LC mindset might contribute to a lot of the problems of those who complain, and as Crux said, Evolution Stone being used defensively will lead to a lot more options in the tier than just "Dragon Dancing and Scarf revengers".

Honestly, I don't see what all the fuss is about considering Monmen's presence, anyways, a safe, slow U-Turn should guarantee Monmen getting in safely every time (if it Dragon Dances), or a counter who can handle it without the boost (if it does not).

 

[Darkamber8828]

My stall teal...happens to have a very physically bulky Skorupi that can take a hit from a +1 Crunch and Whirlwind Zuruggu out.

Phaze=/=kill

To be honest I don't think anything needs to be nominated at this point. I've found that things like Meditite and Zuruggu are just good Pokemon at the moment, not particularly worth banning. As the metagame develops, new sets and threats may be discovered, however at the moment no Pokemon deserves a ban in my opinion.

By that logic, why ban anything, when someone might come up with a counter tomorrow?

Whilst it is true that Pokemon like Zuruggu are very difficult to stop in conjunction with Evolution Stone, it is nowhere near as difficult as people are making it out to be. As EM said, just keep it in mind whilst team building if you are having issues (CHOBOMAKI COUNTERS +3 ZURUGGU.)

Chobomaki may be able to live a +3 HJK, I don't know. But...what can it do in return?

In terms of Evolution Stone, I personally think it adds depth to the metagame. Whilst some may think that this movement away from hyper offense is a bad thing, I personally think the diversity of play styles that Evolution Stone allows is far more interesting than the fast paced metagame that LC has been previously.

Evolution Stone makes stall and balanced teams far more viable in Little Cup, and that is something that I want to experiment with.

It also makes hyper offense teams more viable, and since hyper offense was more viable in the first place, it's still more viable.

Y/N?

Honestly, I don't see what all the fuss is about considering Monmen's presence, anyways, a safe, slow U-Turn should guarantee Monmen getting in safely every time (if it Dragon Dances), or a counter who can handle it without the boost (if it does not).

But, the fact that in one set, Zuruggu has the tools to beat Monmen (by attacking) AND that counter you mentioned (with a boost), makes it broken.

 

[Crux]

By that logic, why ban anything, when someone might come up with a counter tomorrow?

You misunderstood my point. My point was that at the moment I don't personally find anything broken. New things might come into the limelight that might be broken, and that will probably cause a shift in the metagame, but as of now I don't personally consider anything to be broken enough to deserve a test. But that is my opinion and it can be changed.

Chobomaki may be able to live a +3 HJK, I don't know. But...what can it do in return?

That was a joke.

It also makes hyper offense teams more viable, and since hyper offense was more viable in the first place, it's still more viable.

Yes, Hyper Offense is still viable and it remains one of if, not the most effective playstyle in Little Cup. However, that doesn't change the fact that the Evolution Stone makes other playstyles more viable as well.

For example, whilst stall was previously deemed impossible in Little Cup, Evolution Stone gives it the boost it needed to thrive and become a genuine threat in the metagame.

The same goes for balanced teams.

 

[Darkamber8828]

You misunderstood my point

Oh.

That was a joke.

Oh.

For example, whilst stall was previously deemed impossible in Little Cup, Evolution Stone gives it the boost it needed to thrive and become a genuine threat in the metagame.

Er, you misunderstand. Evo-stone helps stall, because it makes things live longer. Evo-stone helps offense, because it makes things live longer, so they have longer to boost, so they have longer to kill things. Dual screens are useful for offense, because offense can gouge large chunks out of teams in 6 turns. Stall...can't.

Let X=offense
Let Y=stall
Let Z=Evo-stone

X>Y
X+Z>Y+Z

Right?

 

[Elevator Music]

No because stall teams are usually killing shit with indirect damage like SS and Toxic Spikes (and other hazards). Dual Screen and Evo Stone abuse can't really keep up with that because they're still taking just as much damage as they would be without Screens/Evo Stone (Oran is actually better at dealing with both EH damage and weather damage).

I suppose its helpful for something like Shed Skin Zuruggu, who you HAVE to kill with direct damage (or something like Monmen but w/e). Evo Stone is a much bigger help to defensive teams than to offensive teams.

 

[Ice-eyes]

The things that have really been weakened are non-boosting sweepers, things like LO + 4 Gligar, or Chinchou, or even Misdreavus. The stall teams find teams packing these easy enough to deal with, but boosting sweepers - especially (Shed Skin) Zuruggu - extremely difficult to deal with.

 

[Xaqwais]

Alright, I don't really think I'm good at this metagame, but I do have a bit of experience with it so far. I've been playing with a pretty standard team of Gligar / Misdreavus / Monmen / Elekid / Dokkora / Mantyke and I've gotten high on the ladder due to the high power of the pokemon and not any skill on my part.

However, I'd like to think nothing is broken in this metagame. I mean, Zuruggu does pose some problems, but he reminds me more of Gen 4 Gyarados over Gen 4 Garchomp. What I mean is that you do have to think about it when building a team and while playing, but not overly so.

The other Pokemon I have trouble with is Rest Lilleep oddly enough cause I have to Toxic it and Encore to ensure it doesn't Rest again, hah. Again, I don't think it's too bad with all the fighting types around.

I dunno, I kinda suck at Little Cup so don't listen to me anyway.

 

[Heysup]

Inconsistent - I don't want to miss 29 attacks in a row and lose again, thanks.

Assuming one Pokemon can KO you, you get (assuming 1 inconsistent Pokemon):

Turn 1, Protect. 1/7 to boost Evasion. No Evasion? Switch out, get OHKOed.
Turn 2, Protect. Another 1/7, No Evasion? Switch out, get OHKOed.
Turn 3, Protect. Another 1/7, No Evasion? Switch out, get OHKOed.
Turn 4, Protect. Another 1/7, No Evasion? Switch out, get OHKOed.
Turn 5, Protect. Another 1/7, No Evasion? Switch out, get OHKOed.
Turn 6, Protect. Another 1/7, No Evasion?
Turn 7, 50% chance to get 1/7, No Evasion? Get OHKOed, etc.

50% to get 6 tries, and 50% to get 7 tries.

I don't want to bore you all with math, so let me just say that odds are with 7 chances for 1/7 odds; you're probably going to get at the very least ONE Evasion.

Now, this isn't even considering two things:

a) You may get a +2 (Special) Defense boost - allowing you to take another hit and Protect again - 50% for an EXTRA Protect every time they don't OHKO you, then 25% after that for a 3rd.

b) You may not get OHKOed by this Pokemon. I'll include that the opponents attack may not have perfect accuracy and may miss.

c) Dual Screens.

d) Wynaut Tickle-stacking and switching for a free Substitute (and thus a bonus Protect...or three).


Let's assume, for obvious reasons, that Bidoof is being abused with this.

Should we allow a (I'm going out on a limb here saying every team has at least one Pokemon that doesn't OHKO Bidoof) nearly guaranteed +4 Evasion boost? That seems almost illogical considering we have +1 Evasion moves banned.....this one is four times better.

I may get onto other suspects, but this one is just a logical inconsistency (lol pun) that I feel needs to be addressed.

 

[Deck Knight]

Tell me again Heysup how Inconsistent Bidoof is getting a Simple boost to its Evasion stat?

 

[SlimMan]

Inconsistent - I don't want to miss 29 attacks in a row and lose again, thanks.

Assuming one Pokemon can KO you, you get (assuming 1 inconsistent Pokemon):

Turn 1, Protect. 1/7 to boost Evasion. No Evasion? Switch out, get OHKOed.
Turn 2, Protect. Another 1/7, No Evasion? Switch out, get OHKOed.
Turn 3, Protect. Another 1/7, No Evasion? Switch out, get OHKOed.
Turn 4, Protect. Another 1/7, No Evasion? Switch out, get OHKOed.
Turn 5, Protect. Another 1/7, No Evasion? Switch out, get OHKOed.
Turn 6, Protect. Another 1/7, No Evasion?
Turn 7, 50% chance to get 1/7, No Evasion? Get OHKOed, etc.

50% to get 6 tries, and 50% to get 7 tries.

I don't want to bore you all with math, so let me just say that odds are with 7 chances for 1/7 odds; you're probably going to get at the very least ONE Evasion.

Now, this isn't even considering two things:

a) You may get a +2 (Special) Defense boost - allowing you to take another hit and Protect again - 50% for an EXTRA Protect every time they don't OHKO you, then 25% after that for a 3rd.

b) You may not get OHKOed by this Pokemon. I'll include that the opponents attack may not have perfect accuracy and may miss.

c) Dual Screens.

d) Wynaut Tickle-stacking and switching for a free Substitute (and thus a bonus Protect...or three).


Let's assume, for obvious reasons, that Bidoof is being abused with this.

Should we allow a (I'm going out on a limb here saying every team has at least one Pokemon that doesn't OHKO Bidoof) nearly guaranteed +4 Evasion boost? That seems almost illogical considering we have +1 Evasion moves banned.....this one is four times better.

I may get onto other suspects, but this one is just a logical inconsistency (lol pun) that I feel needs to be addressed.

Remoraid, Snorunt, and Bidoof; they're all monsters.

 

[Heysup]

Tell me again Heysup how Inconsistent Bidoof is getting a Simple boost to its Evasion stat?

Wasn't using simple - I mean it's going to likely get two Evasion boosts.

EDIT: The obvious reasons were meant to be its defenses > the other mons with it....that was very very unclear.

Remoraid, Snorunt, and Bidoof; they're all monsters.

Yea add the fact that 2 of those other Pokemon can use Protect 1-2 times and give you ANOTHER 2-4 shots for getting the +2 Evasion.

 

[kokoloko]

Meh, we're having a huge debate over Inconsistent over on PO as well, the general consensus is that if it were to be banned it wouldn't be because its broken, but under the same principle as Evasion Clause. Making the game so luck-based is not healthy for the metagame, in my opinion. However, in our server Inconsistent has not become popular in LC, rather in our "UU" (with Octillery leading the way), so I can't really form an opinion as to how well it works in LC.

Now, on to my actual nomination(s):

As much as I hate this, Zuruggu needs to go, the little fucker is one of the best pokemon to ever grace Little Cup with its presence. Specifically, this set:

Zuruggu (M) @ Evolution Stone
Trait: Shed Skin
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SDef / 212 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) / Jolly Nature (+Spd, -Satk)
- Crunch
- Drain Punch
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Punch

He has one of the best typings, both defensively and offensively. Dark/Fight gives it two weaknesses (Flying and Fighting), and nearly unresisted STAB coverage (only resisted by Croagunk). 50/70/70 defenses are more than decent in LC, and when boosted by that small investment and Evolution Stone, they become insanely good. Drain Punch allows it to heal any health lost in the process of setting up, making it impossible to hit it and then wear it down with priority. Shed Skin keeps it safe from status, making it hard to wear down or slow down that way. Ice punch lets it OHKO Gligar, the one pokemon who could effectively wall it. Zuruggu reminds me a lot of Gen 4 OU Salamence =/

That's all for now.

 

[Xaqwais]

Ran into my first Inconsistent user and yeah, now I know what all that goddamn hype is about. If user [Inconsistent] can get to top 5 on the ladder using primarily (I'm assuming) this one team, it seems to speak for itself of how effective it is.

edit: [inconsistent] is currently ranked first.

 

[Elevator Music]

I support Inconsistent being banned, because I support it being banned in every metagame. Especially this one I guess because SS/Hail is so easy to permanently remove and because of the low HP stats you can spam Sub/Protect longer.

EDIT- I figure I should elaborate on this. For the record, I am [Inconsistent].

Inconsistent is incredibly uncompetitive. In the match Heysup is referencing, I played like shit. I deserved to lose that match, and I didn't because I got three evasion boosts in a row with Bidoof and then just stalled until I could get enough Speed/SpAtk to sweep. That's bullshit. It's too easy to just remove almost all skill from the match with Bidoof/Remoraid (and I guess Snorunt but I havent tried it). That's not something we should want in any metagame.

And it's not even like all my matches are like that. Statistically, you're likely to end up getting all positive boosts after a while. That's how the numbers work. If I can get one free turn in any of my matches (enter, Wynaut), it's pretty easy to just spam Sub/Protect until I'm at like +4 everything and then sweep. There's really not anything the opponent can do when I'm playing the team correctly...

tl;dr, I'd nominate this but I'm too lazy to bold and I don't need to. But its broken shit.

 

[v]

If you are nominating something, then bold it. I am not saying this again. Non-bolded nominations will be ignored.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Oh yeah. Well, nominating Inconsistent. Heysup's post is longer, go read it.

Being swept by it was kind of...sad. It looked incredibly easy to set-up and sweep, coasting on evasion and defense boosts until almost all of its stats were +3, +4, +5. And once that happened, resistances ceased to matter, and it bulldozed through everything.

Also, since Encore can miss, even Monmen can't encore Protect/Sub consistent(ha)ly.

But yeah. Don't read this post. Read Heysup's. It makes sense.

 

[Seriin]

I agree with the posts regarding inconsistent for the same reasons stated within them. I think it may also worth nothing that Remoraid and Bidoof both have diverse movepools so that while something may crop up from time to time to put an end to a certain set, they aren't hurting for extra options. Only thing that really hinders them is the lack of space to put said moves. Much like inconsistent in standard, where in you can design something to try and check the users, you still have the rest of a team to deal with.. Inconsistent is actually rather consistent in its pain-in-the-ass factor.

The only other thing I've had regular problems with is Elevator Music. Not any certain Pokemon just EM in general :p This can be attributed to my lack of experience in the LC, however.

 

[Sledge]

inconsistent

Seriously this thing is so awful. It introduces a ridiculous amount of complete luck into the metagame that o good amount of the time keeps the best player from winning when all one of the players has to do is alternate between Protect and Substitute until their offensive stats get high enough to where they can just wipe away a team. It almost entirely eliminates any strategy for team building and battling making the metagame very uncompetitive. You can have an absolutely flawlessly built team but if Remoraid gets an evasion boost on the first turn it protects, you may as well be using 6 Magikarp.

 

[Twins]

Zuruugu isn't that bad, being easily taken down by Croagunk. But why has no one mentioned banning Gligar? It has everything, speed, attack, typing, and defenses. Smogon's page on Gligar (4th gen) says that the only reason it isn't banned is because of it's ice and water weaknesses, but seriously, Tangela has 5 weaknesses, and it's banned? Tangela should be at least suspect tested, because it is only slightly more physically defensive, less specially defensive, and hits a bit harder. However, it is slower and is weak to poison, fire, ice, flying, and bug, while Gligar is just 4x weak to ice and 2x to water. Murkrow is also pretty powerful, with MH and all.

Inconsistent is another story. It is manageable in OU, but is way too hard to beat in LC. I played [Inconsistent] 5 times, and lost 4 times (the time I won Inconsistent lowered defenses and evasion). I say that goes into suspect as well.

Finally, I have said this a million times before, BUT WHY IS THERE NO DREAM WORLD LC ON THE SMOGON SERVER?

 

[v]

Tangela was banned in the initial banlist vote. We are not testing it, period, so don't ask about it. It was UNANIMOUSLY voted uber. If you care so much, then why did you not vote? I am fairly sure that you didn't even post in the initial banlist discussion thread, which was open for some time. For a gist of why it was banned, go read that. There is no LC Dream World ladder because I don't want to fracture our already unimpressive playerbase. This thread really isn't the place to discuss any of that though, so I would appreciate it if posts stuck strictly to discussing the matter at hand, which is discussing and nominating potential suspects in the Little Cup metagame to be tested.

 

[Crux]

I know this is an issue in OU at the moment Vader, but are we going to be banning Pokemon, Abilities or merely stop a certain Pokemon being used with the ability in terms of banning/testing inconsistent if we do so?

 

[Nails]

Inconsistent: adding that onto my earlier post. it's way too easy to abuse, EM's team shows how it's done. with TSpikes the one possible counter to remoraid (pururiru if remoraid is using surf and flamethrower) doesn't even work. Odds are, eventually, you WILL get +6 in every stat, and nothing can compete with that. It's rediculous, and needs to be banned. It's too strong.

My earlier opinions still hold, Zuruggu is broken and Evo Stone needs to be banned. If we don't ban evo stone then another sweeper will show up and lay waste to the metagame, and I'd rather have an item gone (which admittedly has a huge impact on the game) than a ton of sweepers banned. Consider that Gligar with Evo Stone and no defense/hp investment can live an Elekid's Ice Punch after rocks. Set up a RP, and either stall with roost, or ohko with EQ, or pass to something... all against a pokemon with a 4x super effective attack. That's what'll happen with a ton of different setup sweepers, and I'd rather just ban the item then let this go on.

 

[Twins]

Disregarding my previous posts, Zuruggu is only broken because of evo stone giving it a free cosmic power. Without it, it is easily taken down by vacuum wave from Croagunk, and any flying type move.

 

[v]

I know this is an issue in OU at the moment Vader, but are we going to be banning Pokemon, Abilities or merely stop a certain Pokemon being used with the ability in terms of banning/testing inconsistent if we do so?

I plan to follow OU's lead in regards to ability/Pokemon banning policy. If they decide that blanket bans on abilities are alright, then we can discuss implementing that. If they decide specific Pokemon/ability combinations are alright to ban, then we will discuss implementing that. Whatever OU decides on that front, Little Cup will be following. Now, does that mean we will necessarily ban the same abilities? Of course not. But, because we are part of Smogon, we will follow the decided policies on what is "okay" to ban and what is not.