Elevator Music
63194
Quite noticeable in the LC banlist is the banning of the moves Dragon Rage and SonicBoom. The former deals 40 damage, has 100% accuracy, and has no immunities. It literally OHKOes everything in the game. SonicBoom, however, deals 20 damage, has 90% accuracy, and does not affect Ghost-types (and pokemon with Soundproof). This is begging the question: Is SonicBoom actually worth banning in Little Cup? This is a question that was discussed a long time ago, but then discussion just died on it. edit: here[14:23] <elevator_music> [14:11] <%elevator_music> also, dear LC mods
[14:23] <elevator_music> [14:11] <%elevator_music> can i make a thread about Sonicboom?
[14:24] <ete_afk> you may
NOTE: this is actually a big post. it's not very good, but i'd appreciate if you read it.
An in depth look at SonicBoom-
What has less than 20 HP? (What is OHKOed by SonicBoom)
It is well known that a lot of pokemon run Life Orb sets in LC and purposely reduce their HP to 19. This allows them to take only 1 HP or recoil damage per attack, giving them an easier time sweeping. Common examples of this are Elekid, Dratini, and LO Paras. These pokemon are all OHKOed by SonicBoom.
Most pokemon, however, hit above 20 HP. It's usually around 21 or 22. If SR is on the field, many more pokemon can be OHKOed by SonicBoom. Pokemon need to hit 23 HP with neutrality to SR not to be OHKOed (22 if they have a resistance). Pokemon with an SR weakness need to hit 26 HP... but the only one that can do that is Drifloon, who is immune.
Here is a list of all the pokemon in LC that are OHKOed by SonicBoom without any HP investment. Pokemon who are bolded are either common or good in LC (I'm going off my own judgement here; complain to me about it on IRC). Pokemon in italics are known to lower their HP from 21 HP to 19 HP to take 1 HP Life Orb recoil damage. Pokemon who have an asterisk (*) next to them are OHKOed with Stealth Rock on the field. Cleffa was excluded because Magic Guard prevents SR damage, and with 21 min HP Cleffa won't be OHKOed... not that anyone cares about Cleffa
NOTE: you can tl;dr this list and skip to the part below
- Abra
- Aipom*
- Anorith*
- Aron*
- Azurill*
- Bagon*
- Baltoy
- Barboach*
- Beldum
- Bellsprout*
- Bidoof*
- Bonsly*
- Budew
- Buizel*
- Bulbasaur*
- Buneary*
- Burmy
- Cacnea*
- Carvanha*
- Caterpie*
- Charmander
- Cherubi*
- Chikorita*
- Chimchar
- Chingling*
- Clamperl
- Combee
- Corphish
- Croagunk*
- Cubone*
- Cyndaquil
- Diglett
- Doduo
- Dratini
- Drowzee*
- Eevee*
- Ekans
- Electrike
- Elekid*
- Exeggcute*
- Feebas
- Finneon*
- Geodude
- Glameow*
- Goldeen*
- Growlithe*
- Hoothoot*
- Hoppip
- Horsea
- Houndour*
- Kabuto
- Koffing
- Krabby
- Kricketot
- Larvitar*
- Ledyba
- Lotad
- Magby*
- Magikarp
- Magnemite
- Mankey
- Mantyke*
- Mareep*
- Meowth
- Mudkip*
- Natu
- Nidoran f*
- Nidoran m*
- Nincada
- Numel*
- Oddish
- Omanyte
- Onix
- Paras
- Pichu
- Pidgey
- Pineco*
- Piplup*
- Poliwag
- Ponyta*
- Poochyena
- Psyduck*
- Ralts
- Rattata
- Remoraid
- Riolu
- Sandshrew*
- Seedot
- Sentret
- Shellder
- Shieldon
- Shinx*
- Shroomish*
- Skitty*
- Skorupi
- Slakoth*
- Slugma
- Smoochum*
- Snorunt*
- Snover*
- Snubbull*
- Spearow
- Spheal*
- Spinarak
- Spoink*
- Squirtle
- Starly
- Staryu
- Stunky*
- Sunkern
- Surskit
- Swablu*
- Swinub*
- Taillow
- Teddiursa*
- Tentacool
- Togepi
- Torchic*
- Totodile*
- Trapinch*
- Treeko
- Turtwig*
- Tyrogue
- Venonat*
- Vulpix
- Weedle
- Wurmple*
- Zigzagoon
- Zubat
This is a long list. Out of the ~163 Pokemon eligible for Little Cup (I may have miscounted...), ~129 are OHKOed by SonicBoom when SR is on the field... IF they lack HP EVs.
However, even sweepers usually have room to invest a point or two in HP. Pokemon like Mankey and Aron can easily hit 22 HP (stopping SR from putting them in SB range). Narrowing it down to the bolded pokes (aka the good pokes, but this is just my opinion; if you feel that any pokes should be added/removed tell me), many of these pokemon can be removed because they can invest one or two points in their standard set to HP. The following pokemon will not be OHKOed by SonicBoom after SR on a standard set (ie: Attack and Speed is maximized if they're a physical sweeper, etc).
(In this case, pokemon with an asterisk (*), will only avoid being OHKOed by SonicBoom, but will still be OHKOed with SR. Italicized pokemon will usually have 19 HP, and thus will still be OHKOed even though they could avoid it.):
Aipom, Anorith*, Aron, Bagon*, Buizel*, Buneary*, Carvanha, Chimchar*, Croagunk, Dratini*, Eevee*, Elekid, Geodude, Horsea*, Houndour*, Krabby*, Larvitar, Magby, Mankey, Mantyke*, Meowth, Poliwag*, Ponyta*, Shellder, Shroomish, Snover*, Squirtle*, Stunky, Taillow*, Teddiursa, and Venonat*.
This shortens the list of bolded (good pokemon that are OHKOed by SR) pokemon to the following: (once again pokemon with an asterisk are only OHKOed with SR)
Abra, Anorith*, Bagon*, Buizel*, Buneary*, Carvanha, Chimchar*, Croagunk, Diglett, Dratini*, Eevee*, Elekid, Horsea*, Houndour*, Kabuto, Krabby*, Magby, Magnemite, Mantyke*, Meowth, Omanyte, Paras, Poliwag*, Ponyta*, Snover*, Staryu, Squirtle*, Taillow*, and Venonat*.
This is 29 pokemon. 17 require SR to be OHKOed (thats not a big requirement though). My list of "good" pokemon (which is below) is ~55 pokes, though I may have miscounted. The question is, is that too much?
(this is my list and yeah it's my personal opinion. You can argue with me about it on IRC but whatever... it's not that important lol)
Abra, Aipom, Anorith, Aron, Bagon, Bronzor Buizel, Buneary, Carvanha, Chimchar, Cranidos, Croagunk, Diglett, Dratini, Drifloon, Duskull, Eevee, Elekid, Gastly, Geodude, Gible, Gligar, Hippopotas, Horsea, Houndour, Kabuto, Larvitar, Lickitung, Lileep, Machop, Magby, Magnemite, Mankey, Mantyke, Meowth, Munchlax, Omanyte, Paras, Phanpy, Poliwag, Ponyta, Porygon, Rhyhorn, Shellder, Shroomish, Slowpoke, Snover, Squirtle, Staryu, Stunky, Taillow, Teddiursa, Venonat, Voltorb, Wailmer, and Wynaut.
Food for thought:
SonicBoom will OHKO 12 of the "good" pokemon on my list, 29 with SR on the field. Is this a lot? Compare it to another move, like Thunderbolt or DynamicPunch or Ice Beam or EQ. Discuss.
Also, while not much is OHKOed, almost everything is 2HKOed. Pokemon need to have over 30 HP and Oran Berry to not be 2HKOed by SonicBoom (with Berry Juice they really only need 21 HP though... and Berry Juice WILL be tested in SB2). Is this too unhealthy? Discuss.
What learns SonicBoom?
The following pokemon are able to use SonicBoom in Little Cup:
(Buizel, Magnemite, Spinarak, Voltorb, and Yanma)
Looking more in depth and all of these pokemon, note that any sets I post aren't necessarily the best, just ones I theorymon'd up really quick:
Buizel
:
Buizel hits 19 Speed, has access to Aqua Jet for priority, and is capable of doubling its Speed through Swift Swim or Agility. It also has 22 HP without any investment, and with just 23 HP it is capable of surviving an opposing SonicBoom after SR. On top of that, it is not weak to any priority.
Possible Buizel sets that may be very good in a metagame with SonicBoom-
Buizel @ Oran Berry / Life Orb / Wide Lens
Swift Swim | Jolly
76 HP / 156 Atk / 236 Spe / 36 SpDef
- Aqua Jet
- Agility / Rain Dance / Quick Attack
- Waterfall
- Sonicboom
Agility up and sweep with SonicBoom, using Waterfall and Aqua Jet for Ghosts/pokemon not in kill range. Agility is slashed because you can also just use Rain Dance (or have another pokemon set it up).
After a boost Buizel is faster than anything. The perk to Agility is that opposing Buizel can't speed tie you right off the bat and you aren't on a timer, however with Rain Waterfall and Aqua Jet are boosted. Really though, Buizel can afford to go down to like 17 Speed and it will still outspeed everything after a boost.
I would avoid using Scarf Buizel because it's a crappier Scarf Voltorb.... and there's not really a reason to use both imo. It would make Buizel a good revenge killer though.
Possible checks/counters for Buizel:
Duskull, Voltorb, Mantyke, Chinchou, Slowpoke, etc.
Duskull and Voltorb are immune to SonicBoom and can threaten Buizel back (especially Voltorb, though it has problems coming in, and probably can't take Waterfalls in the rain). Most bulky Waters aren't OHKOed by SonicBoom and can cripple/kill Buizel. (et cetera)
---
Magnemite
:
Magnemite generally has problems that won't make it a good user of SonicBoom. It is slow and can't boost its Speed without Choice Scarf... and even with a Scarf it is still slower than other Scarfed SonicBoom users (and most other Scarfers). Not to mention, it is OHKOed by opposing SonicBooms with its low HP stat unless it runs max HP. It also has easily exploitable weaknesses to Vacuum Wave (aka Croagunk) and Earthquake, meaning if it misses with SonicBoom or doesn't OHKO, it will likely die.
However, it does have decent resistances, meaning it can come in easily enough. 22 Speed may not be great, but it's fast enough to outspeed Scarfers like Machop and Porygon... (though they aren't OHKOed!). It also gets Explosion and has a nice base SpAtk, meaning it doesnt need SonicBoom to deal damage.
Possible counters/checks for Magnemite:
Gligar, Voltorb, Chinchou, Diglett, Croagunk, faster Scarfers, etc.
Gligar can take a SonicBoom and is immune to Thunderbolt, though it probably needs to watch out for Flash Cannon. Voltorb resists both STABs and is immune to SonicBoom, and it can OHKO back with SonicBoom of its own. Chinchou loves Thunderbolt and can take a SonicBoom, and can set up or cripple Magnemite or attack. Diglett will trap and kill slower Magnemite or ones locked into Thunderbolt. Croagunk can't switch in but can revenge kill with Vacuum Wave.
---
Spinarak
:
Spinarak is probably an OK user of SonicBoom, but it's not anywhere as good as Buizel or Voltorb. It has mediocre stats outside of its Attack, and pretty bad typing. It will be OHKOed by opposing SonicBoom unless it runs HP, though with SR down it will always be OHKOed. Its saving grace is that it has Agility to boost its poor Speed, as well as Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch to threaten Ghost-types. It also has Insomnia...
Since Spinarak gets SonicBoom via breeding, it can only have Pursuit along with it as an egg move. This means no Baton Pass and no Toxic Spikes... not that they're really great options.
Spinarak does hit 13 Speed with Jolly, and 26 after a boost is good enough... though it can't set up on like anything. It can probably run something like the following:
Spinarak @ Life Orb
Insomnia | Jolly
36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe / 36 SpDef
- Agility
- SonicBoom
- Bug Bite / Shadow Sneak
- Sucker Punch / Shadow Sneak
It can probably also cram something like Poison Jab in there somewhere.
Possible counters/checks for Spinarak:
Duskull, Gastly, Gligar, Bronzor, Voltorb, Rhyhorn/Geodude, etc
Duskull and Gastly can come in on SonicBoom and resist Bug Bite and Poison Jab. Gastly won't be OHKOed by LO Shadow Sneak (70.00% - 90.00%). It also outspeeds even +2 Spinarak with a Choice Scarf. Gligar and Bronzor can take a hit and OHKO with Stone Edge/AA or Psychic. Voltorb can do the same and is immune to SonicBoom. Rhyhorn and Geodude can also take a hit... etc
---
Voltorb
:
In my opinion, the best user of SonicBoom... because it's the fastest! Another great selling point is that it's immune to opposing SonicBooms with Soundproof. In the current metagame, Voltorb only has a niche as a lead for setting up Rain Dance (or doing so midgame). In a metagame with SonicBoom, it becomes much more deadly as a lategame sweeper.
The best Voltorb sets will probably be Scarf Voltorb and a lategame Voltorb sweeper. ScarfVoltorb is a great revenge killer with both Explosion and SonicBoom, and it also has STAB Thunderbolt which isn't horrible. Lategame Voltorb has the ability to trade attacks (it can run HP Ice/Grass or Sucker Punch or something in the last slot), although it loses to Scarf pokemon. The lategame Voltorb can also run Wide Lens, making SonicBoom 99% accurate. It can also run something like Charge Beam to help boost its Special Attack...
Possible counters/checks:
Chinchou, Scarf Gastly, Gligar, Diglett, Munchlax, Rhyhorn/Geodude, Hippopotas, etc
Chinchou is immune to Thunderbolt and can take a SonicBoom. Scarf Gastly can come in on SonicBoom and threaten Voltorb. Gligar and Diglett are immune to Thunderbolt, and if they are Scarfed they can outspeed and OHKO with EQ. Gligar can also take a SonicBoom, while Diglett can trap and kill Voltorb for good. Munchlax isn't 2HKOed by SonicBoom and laughs at Thunderbolt. Rhyhorn, Geodude, and Hippopotas can live through a SonicBoom and are immune to Thunderbolt. They don't care for much beyond HP Grass/Water. Generally, if somethnig can survive Voltorb's SonicBoom it should win, since Voltorb is sorta frail.
---
Yanma
:
Yanma is/should be banned even without SonicBoom in its arsenal, so who cares?
Food For Thought:Buizel hits 19 Speed, has access to Aqua Jet for priority, and is capable of doubling its Speed through Swift Swim or Agility. It also has 22 HP without any investment, and with just 23 HP it is capable of surviving an opposing SonicBoom after SR. On top of that, it is not weak to any priority.
Possible Buizel sets that may be very good in a metagame with SonicBoom-
Buizel @ Oran Berry / Life Orb / Wide Lens
Swift Swim | Jolly
76 HP / 156 Atk / 236 Spe / 36 SpDef
- Aqua Jet
- Agility / Rain Dance / Quick Attack
- Waterfall
- Sonicboom
Agility up and sweep with SonicBoom, using Waterfall and Aqua Jet for Ghosts/pokemon not in kill range. Agility is slashed because you can also just use Rain Dance (or have another pokemon set it up).
After a boost Buizel is faster than anything. The perk to Agility is that opposing Buizel can't speed tie you right off the bat and you aren't on a timer, however with Rain Waterfall and Aqua Jet are boosted. Really though, Buizel can afford to go down to like 17 Speed and it will still outspeed everything after a boost.
I would avoid using Scarf Buizel because it's a crappier Scarf Voltorb.... and there's not really a reason to use both imo. It would make Buizel a good revenge killer though.
Possible checks/counters for Buizel:
Duskull, Voltorb, Mantyke, Chinchou, Slowpoke, etc.
Duskull and Voltorb are immune to SonicBoom and can threaten Buizel back (especially Voltorb, though it has problems coming in, and probably can't take Waterfalls in the rain). Most bulky Waters aren't OHKOed by SonicBoom and can cripple/kill Buizel. (et cetera)
---
Magnemite
Magnemite generally has problems that won't make it a good user of SonicBoom. It is slow and can't boost its Speed without Choice Scarf... and even with a Scarf it is still slower than other Scarfed SonicBoom users (and most other Scarfers). Not to mention, it is OHKOed by opposing SonicBooms with its low HP stat unless it runs max HP. It also has easily exploitable weaknesses to Vacuum Wave (aka Croagunk) and Earthquake, meaning if it misses with SonicBoom or doesn't OHKO, it will likely die.
However, it does have decent resistances, meaning it can come in easily enough. 22 Speed may not be great, but it's fast enough to outspeed Scarfers like Machop and Porygon... (though they aren't OHKOed!). It also gets Explosion and has a nice base SpAtk, meaning it doesnt need SonicBoom to deal damage.
Possible counters/checks for Magnemite:
Gligar, Voltorb, Chinchou, Diglett, Croagunk, faster Scarfers, etc.
Gligar can take a SonicBoom and is immune to Thunderbolt, though it probably needs to watch out for Flash Cannon. Voltorb resists both STABs and is immune to SonicBoom, and it can OHKO back with SonicBoom of its own. Chinchou loves Thunderbolt and can take a SonicBoom, and can set up or cripple Magnemite or attack. Diglett will trap and kill slower Magnemite or ones locked into Thunderbolt. Croagunk can't switch in but can revenge kill with Vacuum Wave.
---
Spinarak
Spinarak is probably an OK user of SonicBoom, but it's not anywhere as good as Buizel or Voltorb. It has mediocre stats outside of its Attack, and pretty bad typing. It will be OHKOed by opposing SonicBoom unless it runs HP, though with SR down it will always be OHKOed. Its saving grace is that it has Agility to boost its poor Speed, as well as Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch to threaten Ghost-types. It also has Insomnia...
Since Spinarak gets SonicBoom via breeding, it can only have Pursuit along with it as an egg move. This means no Baton Pass and no Toxic Spikes... not that they're really great options.
Spinarak does hit 13 Speed with Jolly, and 26 after a boost is good enough... though it can't set up on like anything. It can probably run something like the following:
Spinarak @ Life Orb
Insomnia | Jolly
36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe / 36 SpDef
- Agility
- SonicBoom
- Bug Bite / Shadow Sneak
- Sucker Punch / Shadow Sneak
It can probably also cram something like Poison Jab in there somewhere.
Possible counters/checks for Spinarak:
Duskull, Gastly, Gligar, Bronzor, Voltorb, Rhyhorn/Geodude, etc
Duskull and Gastly can come in on SonicBoom and resist Bug Bite and Poison Jab. Gastly won't be OHKOed by LO Shadow Sneak (70.00% - 90.00%). It also outspeeds even +2 Spinarak with a Choice Scarf. Gligar and Bronzor can take a hit and OHKO with Stone Edge/AA or Psychic. Voltorb can do the same and is immune to SonicBoom. Rhyhorn and Geodude can also take a hit... etc
---
Voltorb
In my opinion, the best user of SonicBoom... because it's the fastest! Another great selling point is that it's immune to opposing SonicBooms with Soundproof. In the current metagame, Voltorb only has a niche as a lead for setting up Rain Dance (or doing so midgame). In a metagame with SonicBoom, it becomes much more deadly as a lategame sweeper.
The best Voltorb sets will probably be Scarf Voltorb and a lategame Voltorb sweeper. ScarfVoltorb is a great revenge killer with both Explosion and SonicBoom, and it also has STAB Thunderbolt which isn't horrible. Lategame Voltorb has the ability to trade attacks (it can run HP Ice/Grass or Sucker Punch or something in the last slot), although it loses to Scarf pokemon. The lategame Voltorb can also run Wide Lens, making SonicBoom 99% accurate. It can also run something like Charge Beam to help boost its Special Attack...
Possible counters/checks:
Chinchou, Scarf Gastly, Gligar, Diglett, Munchlax, Rhyhorn/Geodude, Hippopotas, etc
Chinchou is immune to Thunderbolt and can take a SonicBoom. Scarf Gastly can come in on SonicBoom and threaten Voltorb. Gligar and Diglett are immune to Thunderbolt, and if they are Scarfed they can outspeed and OHKO with EQ. Gligar can also take a SonicBoom, while Diglett can trap and kill Voltorb for good. Munchlax isn't 2HKOed by SonicBoom and laughs at Thunderbolt. Rhyhorn, Geodude, and Hippopotas can live through a SonicBoom and are immune to Thunderbolt. They don't care for much beyond HP Grass/Water. Generally, if somethnig can survive Voltorb's SonicBoom it should win, since Voltorb is sorta frail.
---
Yanma
Yanma is/should be banned even without SonicBoom in its arsenal, so who cares?
Does the small userbase of the move SonicBoom matter? If so, how much? Discuss.
What is immune to SonicBoom?
Ghost-types and pokemon with Soundproof are immune to SonicBoom... which means the following pokemon are:
(Drifloon, Duskull, Gastly, Shuppet, Voltorb, Whismur, Mime Jr.)
It's a shame Misdreavus had to leave isn't it...
All of these pokemon have problems, though Gastly, Duskull, Voltorb, and Drifloon all have niches in the current metagame. Shuppet does as well... it's just not that good imo. Whismur and Mime Jr. are pretty terrible though, and can also be disregarded.
Since SonicBoom will probably used on pokemon with a Choice Scarf, Drifloon and Gastly will probably thrive. Giving Sub Gastly a free turn is pretty scary, and often results in the death of 2 or 3 pokemon, while letting Drifloon set up later in the game means that it's probably GG. However, Drifloon has exploitable weaknesses, and will not appreciate Voltorb that isn't actually Scarfed, or coming in on Tbolt in general. Gastly is also known for its fraility and will not like taking a Thunderbolt or Aqua Jet or Waterfall accidentally. Still, they both make good checks for SonicBoom pokemon.
Duskull is also interesting with its impressive defenses. It doesn't have great offensive capabilities and thus can't hit back very hard, but it isn't 2HKOed by (non LO) Thunderbolt from Voltorb or LO Waterfall from Buizel if its holding Oran. It can use Trick Room or something to put them at a disadvantage or just attack with Shadow Sneak.
It is important to note that Ghost-types are already "good" in LC thanks to their immunities, making them prime candidates for dealing with threats like Machop and Mankey. SonicBoom isn't going to force people to run crappy pokemon just to combat it (ie: Stunky with Misdreavus -- although I don't think Stunky is a bad pokemon in a metagame without Misdreavus but that's just me)... but it will certainly make them more common.
Voltorb has been discussed above... so whatever.
Discuss if the pokemon who are immune to SonicBoom help make it more manageable.
Why has Spikes not been mentioned?
I did not mention Spikes as a way to wear down the opposition into SB range because... Spikes are very hard to get up in LC. The only remotely good Spiker is Omanyte, who in my opinion has better things to be doing.
Perhaps Spiker Omanyte would become much more common in a metagame with SonicBoom allowed... discuss maybe?
Other stuff to think about:
- How much does SonicBoom's 90% accuracy factor into it being broken or not?
- Would it be worth it for pokemon that are currently OHKOed by SonicBoom (with SR) to run a few extra HP EVs on their standard set?
- Ghosts would become even more important on teams. This leads to an increase of pokemon that kill Ghost-types, like Stunky and Munchlax. Where does the metagame go from there?
- The drawback to most Scarf moves, or most moves in general, is thathey have lots of resistances and/or immunities. SonicBoom lacks this. Does this make it overpowered in combination with its ability to 2HKO everything?
-----
sorta tl;dr: SonicBoom OHKOes alot of pokemon with SR support, though most standard pokemon aren't OHKOed. SonicBoom has a small userbase, but Buizel and Voltorb shine as great users of it. Ghosts (and Soundproof pokes) are immune to SonicBoom, but there are always risks inherent with the trappability of Ghosts. Also, Gastly and Drifloon can't safely come in on most attacks that aren't SonicBoom against the better SB users.
Factors for allowing:
- lower userbase
- 90% accuracy
- there are immunities to SonicBoom
- not much is actually OHKOed
Factors for banning:
- SonicBoom has excellent "coverage", and at least 2HKOes everything. This is bad.
- the few pokemon with immunities to SonicBoom can be removed pretty easily...
I know this was a horrible read because I'm not very good at gathering my thoughts, but I thought I should get this out on the table. SonicBoom isn't as obviously broken as Dragon Rage, and there should definitely be discussion on whether or not its allowed.
I tried to keep my personal opinions out of the rest of this thread in an attempt to make this a discussion thread and to present both sides. I probably didn't do all that well, but I tried... Try to discuss the things I labeled for discussion...