At least cloak has the niche in preventing effects other than salt cure, for example flinch from fake out/iron head, burn from scald, -def from crunch, etc. And most cloak users have access to recovery moves like ghold/pex/corv. However, tran’s ability shield only works for pon as its the only fire type mold breaker in the tier and tran doesn’t have reliable recovery options other than leftovers.Running an item to check just one mon and giving up lefties/boots longevity is not unheard of (see covert cloak and why anything runs it).
At least cloak has the niche in preventing effects other than salt cure, for example flinch from fake out/iron head, burn from scald, -def from crunch, etc. And most cloak users have access to recovery moves like ghold/pex/corv. However, tran’s ability shield only works for pon as its the only fire type mold breaker in the tier and tran doesn’t have reliable recovery options other than leftovers.
OgerH has already gotten to hang around for a couple weeks now and nothing has really made it less absurd of a presence. There's no hysterics, this is just an overpowered Pokemon that doesn't belong in an OU environment and it's better to remove it so the tier can improve.Just stopping by to say I appreciate seeing a council take their time to get the community involved without quickbanning. As for the panicky\hysterical demands for the ban to go through, I really dont see how taking a week or two to implement to fix it will have a negative impact. Lets let the hype cool down a bit then decide on banning.
Urshifu single strike should not get unbanned imoima keep it short n crispy with this one.
Ban:
Free:
Like what you mentioned earlier, terrains is what makes sneas good. Mons like koko enable unburden much easier rather than using weird items like white herb. The said terrain mons also are good mons themselves(except fini and bulu we don't talk about them).I'm curious about the tier's stance onView attachment 558113 in comparison to how it stands normal gen 9 OU, since I am not the most familiar with the tier.
In normal gen 9 OU, Sneasler is seen as a very potent threat, but even with Dire Claw RNG, it hasn't really been that much of a problem for the tier. There were eyes on it when it first came out at HOME, but such glares quickly dissipated afterwards.
In NatDex OU, I do recognize that there are now other powerful terrain setters not named Rillaboom in the tier, such as Koko and Lele, thus Unburden Sneasler is easier to slap on a team. However, I am interested in the difference of counterplay against this mon in this tier in comparison to gen 9 OU. Do the different terrain setters make counterplay against Sneasler more difficult to apply on a team, or are the natural checks to Sneasler seen in gen 9 OU not used as much in NatDex?
This post isn't really a counterargument to why Sneasler should be looked at in this tier; I am just more curious to why the perception of Sneasler seems to be noticeably different in this tier in comparison to gen 9 OU despite the mon itself being pretty much the exact same between the two tiers.
All of those sets are extremely niche and are just outclassed by the better sets, that being Electric / Psychic / Grassy Seed sets with a falicitator like Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, and Rillaboom. These sets are way easier to use and pull off than stuff like Endure + Liechi and is the reason why many people dislike the Pokemonni the metagame. We've also sort of lacked strong priority since Kingambit's departure, having to rely on Mega Lopunny's Fake Out and Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch is sort of ok but the Pokemon won't get rid of it in one go and you'll have to do some risky trading when doing so. Corviknight is just a bad Pokemon and gets blown away by Close Combat boosted and Ghold can lose to Night Slash / Shadow Claw. I can see why people want to see a suspect, but its kind of obvious what the result will be and I think that it would be a waste of time for a suspect to be done on it.In response to hidin:
I respect you and your opinions, and I agree with most of these votes. However, I feel that Sneasler isn't quite worthy of a QB, though a suspect is still probably needed. In my experience using it, I have discovered three sets, and each of them lack something that would make Sneasler truly broken. The Sash+SD set lacks reliability and is very weak to hazards, the Normal Gem+Fake Out set lacks power, and the Endure+Liechi Berry set lacks both. As for when Unburden is proc'd, Sneasler's low HP, DEF, and SPD stats make it very weak to any kind of priority, especially after a use of CC, and Corviknight and Gholdengo completely invalidate it.
I think Darkrai is a lot more broken on paper than it would be in practice. I’d honestly say it’s a safer drop than MMeta tbh.why exactly is even being tossed around? in an already messy meta why do we need something that relies/very heavily benefits from a 60% move and can also tera and nuke everything while being at a 125 base speed tier? can someone tell me cos none of the posts ive seen have any real explanation, its just "free darkrai & mmeta for fun cos they check each other" or something
NP 3 attacks is going to be hard to set up. 70/90/90 bulk is frail and it does not have a defensive typing that is really doing it any favors. You are acting like Darkrai has free reign to set up a Nasty Plot and sweep. Looking at the VR, its going to be hard for Darkrai to set up 3 Attacks on anything that isnt hyper passive like Toxapex. Darkrai's defensive typing just doesn't do it many favors. Unless you are coming in on a Choice locked Lele (which would mean either something else already took a huge hit/died or you risked a 50/50) or a Gholdengo Shadow Ball, you are going to have a hard time setting up safely. It is very easy to post a wall of calcs that show that if Darkrai got its +2 boost its going to be a scary breaker. Most things if they get to set up are. The problem Darkrai has is that it just does not have as many opportunities to do that as it would appear on paper. Z Hypnosis honestly makes the issues even more difficult for it. Hypnosis does guarantee the set up, but it also makes that 4MSS even worse. You have to choose whether other Dark types like Ting Lu or bulky fairies are going to sit on you.NP + Dark Pulse + Focus Blast + Sludge Bomb (or something like Tera Blast Fairy) with either a Z Move, Chople Berry, or even a Life Orb is all that you need, Ice Beam hits nothing that you just break through and is a waste of a slot. Z Hypnosis sets also sound very threatening with Nasty Plot as you can both boost your Speed and put the opponent to sleep, albeit being unreliable but very uncompetitive especially with Bad Dreams and how easy it is for Darkrai to pull a sweep off compared to other Hypnosis + Psychium Z users like Xurkitree, who have a good bunch of problems compared to Darkrai. The only thing that would check this is either Clodsire, a Pokemon who's usage has near shrinked and which people dislike due to its passivity, or having an emergency Tera that is both unreliable and comes with opportunity cost. Specs sounds even more chaotic since Darkrai has some of the best coverage of all special attacks, and even Scarf sounds a bit worrisome as well. It also isn't hard to bring in a Pokemon like Darkrai in for a sweep, when you're using a Pokemon like it that cleans so fast mid- and late-game, and is easy to use when you play good, it should be putting in good work throughout a battle unless you play with it like a doll. Bad Dreams being near useless doesn't matter when the Pokemon its on is genuinely absurd. Really think we should do some more thinking when it comes to Darkrai because it really just has no reason to have a chance down here
Darkrai looks to me an HO mon or some sort of cleaner/breaker on other styles of offense, so why are we talking about its defenses? If anything it can come in on something it threatens, either after sacking something else like HO does or by slow pivot, and then it becomes a 50/50 if it kills or nplots and then we have a problemAt the end of the day, Darkrai is a powerful offensive pokemon that offers little to no defensive utility and is relatively frail.
hearthflame ban did a lot, and ive enjoyed experimenting a lot with some of the new pokemon, mainly sinistcha as its a really fun pokemon to use and I'm planning on making an mban team with it getting poltergeistAlright thats far enough off topic, we aren't looking to unban Darkrai anytime soon, if ever. Metagame is in no fit state to start unbanning anything, let alone Darkrai. Anything more on it will be deleted and possibly lurk mored if its particularly egregious.
To steer us back on track, the three highest scoring Pokemon on the most recent survey were Baxcalibur, Sneasler, and Gholdengo. What are peoples thoughts on each of these and how do people want to see us handle them?
My current thoughts are that while Bax and Sneasler are really potent threats at the minute, Gholdengo seems to be a core issue in the metagame as it does so much. It keeps a vast portion of strong contenders at bay; things like Tapu Lele, Iron Valiant, and even Sneasler itself to some degree are all kept under control by Gholdengo's existence. Gholdengo itself is also incredible at forcing progress vs a variety of teams, either via Tricking Scarf onto would-be checks or being able to easily set up on the vast majority of bulkier inclusions in the tier. None of this is to mention its ability to completely deny removal, which makes Spike Stacking so much harder to deal with especially with the quality of Spike setters we have in the tier now.
All of that being said, I'm still unsure if banning Gholdengo is the healthier move for the metagame, as all the aforementioned threats get exponentially better and it could lead to an avalanche effect where we have to get rid of a lot of Pokemon to re-stabilise. I think its a really interesting discussion and If Gholdengo does ever get a suspect test I think that will be the main conversation to have, similar to how the discussion always used to go around Lando-T in past generations; whether or not the almost incomparable compression is itself broken.
If you dont feel like diving into that then another question, how are people finding the DLC metagame post Hearthflame?