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I used to agree with this. But in a sense we are closer to OU now than you might think. Due to the fact that we no longer care if a mon is neccesary to a type. And we no longer have type bans. The only differences with OU and us is team support and whether it destroys multiple types. To be honest if a mon is broken in OU, as long as it wasn't broken due to team support, I can't think of any possible reason why it wouldn't be banned here as well with the new precedents that have been set.
So, I'd say Hoopa -U is just as broken here as it is in OU. True, we should not be using OU's decisions as our own. But I think it could have valid influence in the type of meta that we have become.
Tbh, this is just a flawed argument, as someone earlier said, OU is much more slower and longer than monotype matches, so unless we are talking about stall water, hoopa doesn't get that many killsas it would have in OU. Also only reason type bans were removed was to make the game easier for beginners.
Plus, a wall breaker is defined so that it doesn't have any switch-ins. So, is it difficult to switch into? Yes. But does that stop most of the types to deal with it sufficiently like relatively fast mons did in OU? No.
It isn't my intention to make out Hoopa-U to be arceus and yes i do understand that Hoopa can crumble under pressure on Dark having played Dark for a while however most things that try to revenge Hoopa tend to be choice locked due scarf Hoopa being the dominant set, which means with the right predictions hoopa can be kept healthy, of course there are other threats i wont deny this however a good chunk of them can be played around. One example I can give is terrakion, Dark possesses the pokemon capable of switching into any of its general 4 moves if you can predict it correctly the dark team can gain the momentum, yes it's pressure but there is also a degree of pressure on the opponent to make the correct move. Bug is fine without genesect yes but to use a similar point that you made without it it struggled to threaten many flying teams without it just as hoopaless dark may struggle to threaten fighting but I'm sure dark will find workarounds just as bug did is all.
Hoopa-U being locked in a move due to Choice Scarf is a momentum drain and we can't really turn that around. Bug being weak to flying is supposed to be normal but without Hoopa-U Dark doesn't only suffer against Fairy or Fighting it suffers against a good portion of the meta such as Electric, Water and Fire three types that seriously pressures Dark a lot. Also Genesect was approached in a different manner, it has access to U-turn which can give you the momentum and insane coverage moves.
It isn't my intention to make out Hoopa-U to be arceus and yes i do understand that Hoopa can crumble under pressure on Dark having played Dark for a while however most things that try to revenge Hoopa tend to be choice locked due scarf Hoopa being the dominant set, which means with the right predictions hoopa can be kept healthy, of course there are other threats i wont deny this however a good chunk of them can be played around. One example I can give is terrakion, Dark possesses the pokemon capable of switching into any of its general 4 moves if you can predict it correctly the dark team can gain the momentum, yes it's pressure but there is also a degree of pressure on the opponent to make the correct move. Bug is fine without genesect yes but to use a similar point that you made without it it struggled to threaten many flying teams without it just as hoopaless dark may struggle to threaten fighting but I'm sure dark will find workarounds just as bug did is all.
Again I really don't see how dark recovers from hoopa loss, as normal sableye is nowhere as good as mega sableye was, so revenging a banded or specs mon is an excellent thing that dark had using hoopa, and you are quite wrong if you say anything in dark switches into banded stone edge from terrakion which will become popular on fighting teams, once they know there is no psychic STAB coming to scare them out
Hoopa-U being locked in a move due to Choice Scarf is a momentum drain and we can't really turn that around. Bug being weak to flying is supposed to be normal but without Hoopa-U Dark doesn't only suffer against Fairy or Fighting it suffers against a good portion of the meta such as Electric, Water and Fire three types that seriously pressures Dark a lot. Also Genesect was approached in a different manner, it has access to U-turn which can give you the momentum and insane coverage moves.
And hoopa doesnt have insane coverage? But i will give you the U turn momentum that did help with the switches it forced.
Fire I do kind of get the sun pressure can be alot on dark however it can be mitigated with clever use of sand but yes sun pressure is alot but i dont feel its as one sided as your making it out to be.
Water i do get rain teams do cause alot of pressure, however this is the same with many teams such as bug, steel and fairy due to the pressure of the swift swim pair. Balanced water i can see causing a problem due to Azu generally having better support on balanced teams so I understand that.
Electric is the one I don't get as much purely to lack of knowledge on the matchup, if you explained how the matchup works ill give my opinion on it after.
Again I really don't see how dark recovers from hoopa loss, as normal sableye is nowhere as good as mega sableye was, so revenging a banded or specs mon is an excellent thing that dark had using hoopa, and you are quite wrong if you say anything in dark switches into banded stone edge from terrakion which will become popular on fighting teams, once they know there is no psychic STAB coming to scare them out
I dont see why banded terrakion will be a thing i should think its there for more reason than to threaten a mon on a matchup they have an upper hand on. Dark has other options when it comes to threatening fighting it does have other options, a set ive been trialling is Zen Headbutt Hydro Pump Sharpedo Mega which I'm finding some results with however it is early days. Hoopa was also a scarf user before mega sableye was banned so I dont really see your point and for you to state that I'm 'Quite wrong' is one that is unfounded.
I dont see why banded terrakion will be a thing i should think its there for more reason than to threaten a mon on a matchup they have an upper hand on. Dark has other options when it comes to threatening fighting it does have other options, a set ive been trialling is Zen Headbutt Hydro Pump Sharpedo Mega which I'm finding some results with however it is early days. Hoopa was also a scarf user before mega sableye was banned so I dont really see your point and for you to state that I'm 'Quite wrong' is one that is unfounded.
Well, first of all, you kind of just misinterpreted what I wanted to say, maybe you were in a hurry to reply or something so I will try to make it little more clear. Now, first thing is that I never associated mega sableye and hoopa, both together, eased up the fighting match-up like a lot but now that mega sableye is gone, dark needs some psychic STAB even more than ever to scare stuff away.
As, far as your sharpedo set is concerned you yourself prove to me how niche a set you had to make to hit fighting types super-effectively, while still falling to any sort of priority mach punch.
Now, some calcs ::
252 Atk Mega Sharpedo Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 202-238 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Sharpedo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 282-332 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (STAB super-effective hit!)
Also, I really don't understand why would you just ridicule banded terra and it decimates dark pretty easily and its perfectly viable when you have a scarf hera already on your team.
I'd like to say a few things here, I know it's been a while since I said much of anything.
First, I see that people are implying that Steel has some kind of large disadvantage against Psychic because of Hoopa-Unbound. Have you lost your minds?
Steel has Mega Scizor, Bisharp, Doublade, and Scarf Jirachi. Even accounting for Hoopa-Unbound with HP Fire, which is all of roughly one in every nine psychic players at the 1760 level, to actually lose to Psychic solely because of that one Hoopa set would be inexcusably pitiful of a Steel player. Psychic has no counter to +2 Adamant Bisharp and Rocks that doesn't require the player to win a 50/50 prediction. Mega Scizor is only countered by Victini. Doublade doesn't have to contend with Meloetta and can therefore freely use Shadow Sneak after boosting. Scarf Jirachi just outspeeds any Hoopa set with U-turn and can buy momentum if the Psychic player preserves. And all of this is on top of Psychic's only common hazard removal being a Defog Latios and Mew, the former of which may end up triggering Bisharp's Defiant against a skilled player. Steel can heavily threaten both hazard removers and commonly has hazards. In what way is Steel disadvantaged here?
Now, as for analyzing what the effects of a Hoopa-Unbound ban would bring to usage. Psychic is the top type, yes. But, of the top types aside from Psychic, what notable types in the upper half of 1760 usage are advantaged against Psychic? Steel, which is the fifth most common 1760 based type. Dark, which is the eigth most common 1760 type. Taking away Hoopa Unbound leads to a significant loss in Dark's ability to threaten Psychic, compete with Flying, do significant harm to Ground, fight Water at all, and actually combat Fighting. What's the natural effect of losing all of this? Dark falling out of relevance and resting in the lower half or third of all of the types in usage.
Dark is one of the only four types 'advantaged' against Psychic. Ghost at this point is just flat out too irrelevant to bring into discussion. And to be honest, this specs set that people are talking about, Ghost would rather face it than a Sub set or a Scarf set anyway. The OHKO potential against Ghost remains, for all intents and purposes, the same. Ghost is not irrelevant because it can't fight Psychic. Ghost is irrelevant because it can't reliably fight top types at all with the exception of Fighting. Even without Hoopa, Psychic enjoys threats like Victini, Jirachi, Latios, Gardevoir-Mega, and more with which it can still not care much at all about Ghost.
Bug. Bug fell into the lower half of usage despite Psychic being so common. I can assure you that it's not because of Hoopa-Unbound. Bug should theoretically be the best type to take on Psychic, but it wasn't used. It's not an accident, Psychic teams are fairly decent at fighting Bug. In this match you can expect Hoopa-Unbound to be almost completely irrelevant. If Bug stayed down despite the fact that Psychic was the top type, then we can't depend on it to come back up and deal with Psychic by taking away a pokemon mostly irrelevant to the matchup, now can we?
Dark. You know what's funny about this matchup with Psychic? A well played Mega Gardevoir and Scarf U-turn can still win. Taking away Dark's scarf Pokemon actually only succeeds in making this even more of a problem, because now what's going to be doing the job of outspeeding and threatening Mega Gardevoir? Something significantly worse and weaker? Hydreigon can't do it, Flash Cannon isn't even a guaranteed 2hko unless you're playing Modest. So we can expect that Dark will, in tandem with the earleir mentioned effects of losing Hoopa-Unbound, be rendered mostly or entirely irrelevant in the metagame, and no longer be dependable as type to fight Psychic with. And you know what this also does? Take away one of Bug's positive matchups, meaning there's less reason to use Bug. That's even less disadvantage matches for Psychic now.
Steel, which was discussed above. Steel is, and doubtlessly will remain, Psychic's most threatening matchup. After nerfing Dark to the point of not being able to compete with top types it will likely be Psychic's only consistent threatening matchup. That's not much call to stop using Psychic, is it? It just means people have to play more steel, right? Well, you know what people will have to play more of in order to beat the Steel that became more common? Fighting, Water, Ground, and Flying. You know what the latter three have in common? Bug does not like them. Nor, on that note, does Bug like Steel itself. Even less reason to use Bug! This is looking a whole lot like a great metagame for Psychic, now isn't it?
The metagame built by nerfing Dark to such a degree after thoroughly analyzing the effects of that nerf actually looks to be an even better metagame for Psychic than this one, meaning that Psychic still won't lose its spot as the best type. It'll stay dominant regardless of whether or not Hoopa-Unbound goes.
If you truly want to bring any form of balance to this metagame then you shouldn't be trying to identify a Pokemon as broken like this. Want to knock Psychic down a peg or three? Actually go for a Pokemon that hurts the type to lose. Because you know what Pokemon you could ban which would cause a massive drop in Psychic's ability to dominate while not removing anything irreplaceable for its secondary typing? Victini. I'm not saying to ban Victini. But if you're trying to make our metagame healthier, this is not the way to do it.
tl;dr: Banning Hoopa-Unbound will risk centralizing our metagame even more while completely failing to dethrone Psychic as the best type. If you want to nerf Psychic then there's better ways to do it.
In response to 1 True Lycan:
I agree that balance teams do not need switch-ins to everything. That doesn't mean it's okay for no team to ever have a switch-in to a Pokemon. When this Pokemon is sitting at a usable Speed tier because it doesn't even need a boosting nature to be powerful and has ridiculous Special Defense alongside great coverage, that's problematic. I understand your points about Steel vs Ground, my own stall Steel team suffers tremendously too, but there's play around Landorus. You have immunities and resistances and prediction can put you in a position to defeat it. Hoopa-U has none of that. For example, what counterplay is there to Hoopa-U other than sacrificing a Pokemon to bring in something else, only to see Hoopa-U run away to repeat it again later? That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't forever prevent Hoopa-U from getting free switches because you have to KO Pokemon eventually.
Mega Gyarados is also different because types that it threatens has actual answers to it and counterplay. For example on Psychic, preserving your Colbur + Grass Knot Slowbro, keeping Stealth Rock up to put Mega Gyarados in range of 2 hits KOing it, running fast Mew, using Trace Gardevoir, Mega Medicham Fake Out + Bullet Punch. There are ways around Mega Gyarados even if it "gets a free switch".
About your "no switch-in wallbreakers":
Mega Gardevoir has switch-ins. Chansey, Doublade, Jirachi, Mew, defensive Mega Scizor, etc. There are definitely switch-ins. All of these either have recovery or take such little damage that it's irrelevant.
Mega Heracross: Clefable, Gliscor, Doublade, defensive Landorus-T. All of these can technically switch into an attack and can cripple or damage Mega Heracross.
Mega Charizard Y: Politoed, Mega Latias, Latios, Dragonite, Chansey. All of these can easily switch into attacks and threaten Mega Charizard Y out.
Landorus: Mew, Mega Latias, Latios offensively can come in and attack / Roost later, Chansey, Depending on coverage: Zapdos is safe vs. no Rock Slide, Skarmory and Porygon2 are safe vs. no Focus Blast. Those that can switch into Landorus can immediately threaten it or use their various utility moves.
This is the difference between Hoopa-U and all other wallbreakers (including LO Kyurem-B which also breaks balance very well). Each wallbreaker does have switch-ins against certain types, Hoopa-U literally doesn't have any. If Hoopa-U had switch-ins for some X teams, then its ability to break Y number of types may be more acceptable, but it doesn't and speaking hypothetically about theorymons is pointless for our purposes.
Diggersby, I can admit, has no switch-ins I can think of (might not have any at all) but it has many other flaws that Hoopa-U lacks.
Hoopa in itself has always been a controversial mon to begin with, and with good reason. It has amazing offensive stats that one could only dream of prior to its release, so it has the ability to effectively run a mixed set, or just go solely onto one side. It's also blessed with a plethora of good coverage attacks to fit teambuilding needs. These were some of the main reasons why it was suspected the first time around. Now, all the sudden Choice Specs gains usage, which on paper should be worse than running mixed, since you're limited to only Special Attacks for the most part and you're choice locked, and that's the different* reason as to why its being suspected again? I truthfully don't see the logic behind that, especially saying in the ladder thread to come up with good, different reasons as to why it should be suspected a 2nd time, and squat came up there. Either I'm missing something, or something else is up with that.
Now, I think the argument of "Hoopa having almost no switchins" is being exaggerated. If I was to come up with a few on the bat, I'd say Klefki (HP Fire atm is only at 13% usage, and towards the lower part of the list of moves it uses the most), Physical Defensive Chansey, Dragonite (who also has the ability to quite easily revenge kill it thanks to Extreme Speed), Gliscor (depending on the set), this is just to name a few. There's also the fact that Hoopa-U is not the only pokemon that has little to no switchins. Kyurem-B is someone that also has very little switchins (LO especially). You could also count Volcanion, Mega Medicham (especially when running Thunder Punch to hit Slowbro, and Psychic Coverage), Mega Pinsir, and if you didn't realize, they all have correlation. All of these examples (and I'm probably forgetting some) are all common Wallbreakers. How is Hoopa then any different from any of these? In fact, some of these are actually faster than it, and often carry priority. If they have the ability to break most walls, of course they're gonna be difficult to switch into! You'd probably have to revenge kill them in order to check them 9 times out of 10, correct? That's exactly how Hoopa is, there are plenty of Pokemon that have the ability to outspeed it (and mons that you don't have to run weird/strange sets for like some argued for Mega Sableye, they;re usually fast revenge killers you commonly see as it is) and easily revenge kill it. As for Psychic/Darks defensives cores that are often pivoted to to help keep Hoopa around, from there it's just how you play--none of them are overly difficult to break once so ever. We're talking about Hoopa and Hoopa alone, NOT Hoopa and team support.
There's also the fact that even if it was banned, as I've mentioned already, Psychic isn't gonna be affected (if you look at the stats prior to Hoopa's release, it shows that Psychic was, and still is, one of the most dominant types in the metagame). Dark is gonna be taking the major blow, and at what costs? So we lose a pokemon that is quote on quote "hard to switch into?" That's it? I think it is clear that there are much more minuses than pluses from banning it, therefore I believe it would be wise to leave it be.
Tl;Dr If you care about our metagame, you can take the time to read this.
Choice Specs Hoopa-U has the unique power to 2HKO every Pokemon in the game barring none. With Stealth Rock, every Pokemon is guaranteed, without, at worst it's a roll in very fringe cases that assumes 100% health. Life Orb and Choice Band trade that almost certain 2HKO for the ability to OHKO many more Pokemon. To claim that Choice Specs is inferior to Life Orb is simply a lack of understanding and knowledge. I'm blown back by how often people cite ladder statistics as a reason for Choice Specs being inferior. Just a few months ago back in the original suspect, Choice Scarf was highest in usage on the ladder. In spite of this, a lot of top tournament players would probably tell you a different story. (This is essentially the same as Choice Scarf Kyurem-B on Dragon, which is similarly suboptimal but a topic for another time)
Anyway, none of Dece1t's checks are reliable against proper, well-built sets that aren't suboptimal and that are used in high ladder and tournament play. Here are damage calculations to show what I'm talking about:
Physically Defensive Chansey:
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 379-447 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock - Assumes the most important special wall on Normal is always going to be full health to check Hoopa-U in the first place.
60 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 294-346 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock - Admittedly not so hot, but Chansey is not really not the wall you want to be risking against a Psychic team.
Gliscor:
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 235-277 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 219-258 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
196 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 185-218 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal - Guaranteed after Stealth Rock, of course.
Dragonite:
196 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 101-120 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- 79.5% chance to 3HKO
196 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 203-239 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Almost a guaranteed 2HKO assuming Multiscale is active. Choice Band Extreme Speed DOES revenge kill because of the -Def nature and Life Orb recoil, though, making this a 1 time potential switch-in to the weakest Hoopa-U set.
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 148-175 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO - Guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 120-141 (37.1 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - Guaranteed 2HKO
Extreme Speed cannot revenge kill even with 1 round of Stealth Rock damage because there is no -Def nature or Life Orb recoil.
I would be happy to provide additional calcs for any other check anyone can find.
Now, comparing Hoopa-U to other wallbreakers is actually quite strange. Mega Medicham (Using Jolly for calculations, but Adamant doesn't net any additional KOs in this section except 1 poor roll) does have many switch-ins for many types. Slowbro is a switch-in because Thunder Punch Mega Medicham is just suboptimal. Doublade and physically defensive Sableye are always switch-ins. Against Psychic Mega Medicham, which commonly drop Psychic STAB in exchange for Ice Punch, Mega Venusaur is a switch-in. Against Fighting Mega Medicham, which don't run Ice Punch, Mega Latias is a switch-in.
For Volcanion (Using Timid for calculations), Chansey is a guaranteed switch-in, as is Mega Latias. Without Hidden Power Grass, Gastrodon is a switch-in. And unlike Hoopa-U, many walls actually Speed creep Volcanion because it's in the base 70 Speed tier, of which Bisharp and Breloom belong to. So the likes of Zapdos gets a guaranteed OHKO with Discharge against 1 round of Stealth Rock and Mew can Knock Off the Choice Specs to make it far from powerful. Garchomp can actually take 1 attack and attack with Earthquake.
And Mega Pinsir is a sweeper not a wallbreaker. I can give a list of switch-ins, but it's so long because Mega Pinsir isn't a wallbreaker like the others.
Anyway, saying that Psychic doesn't get hit hard if Hoopa-U is banned is a pretty sentiment that may or may not be true, but I'm not sure why that's relevant. If Hoopa-U is deemed worthy of being banned (not going to assume this time!), then, regardless of its impact, it should be banned. If I use this logic, I can really just apply it to other problematic Pokemon such as Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria. Flying is going to be top of the charts anyway, so why not just leave them alone? I think it's clear that is not the goal here, so I hope it's clear why Psychic's post-Hoopa-U state, whether it be good or bad, is not particularly relevant.
That should be enough to explain why essentially the entirety of that post was factually incorrect, I think.
On to other matters! Dream Eater Gengar, I'm not sure where to start, so are there any specific flaws or questions you have about the ban argument? This would just help me know what points I need to clarify or expand upon. Otherwise, I'll just go on some tangential point that I'm not sure really benefits either of us.
I've also been writing this for a really long time, so I haven't even read the 3rd page yet. I'll do that at some other time...
Quick Edit:
Yeah just want to reiterate, the point is not to nerf Psychic but to ban a broken Pokemon.
Well, first of all, you kind of just misinterpreted what I wanted to say, maybe you were in a hurry to reply or something so I will try to make it little more clear. Now, first thing is that I never associated mega sableye and hoopa, both together, eased up the fighting match-up like a lot but now that mega sableye is gone, dark needs some psychic STAB even more than ever to scare stuff away.
As, far as your sharpedo set is concerned you yourself prove to me how niche a set you had to make to hit fighting types super-effectively, while still falling to any sort of priority mach punch.
Now, some calcs ::
252 Atk Mega Sharpedo Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 202-238 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Sharpedo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 282-332 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (STAB super-effective hit!)
Also, I really don't understand why would you just ridicule banded terra and it decimates dark pretty easily and its perfectly viable when you have a scarf hera already on your team.
Generally Fighting runs either Scarfcross or Scarf Terrak not both, I personally dont see how banded terrakion will come into play its current usage is less than 3% in 1630 and 1760 usage stats plus the item terrakion uses is not dictated by hoopa-u on dark, why would it be? I'm not ridiculing it it is an amazing set on rock however fighting prefers the scarf and just dont see how a hoopa ban would cause fighting to run a banded terrakion. Yes my sharppedo is a niche set but what you also need to respect is naturally the matchup is favoured to fighting the set still gives it a fighting chance, it eased the matchup but if your sole reason for keeping hoopa is because it eases the fighting matchup then you need to reevaluate as fighting will generally hold the upper hand just as flying does with bug. Plus my set for sharpedo has only swapped out one move as a portion of sharpedo run hydropump to aid with the likes of skarmory iirc so all ive done is swap ice fang for zen headbutt its interesting you bring up mach punch because i can just go into mandibuzz or sableye with ease so that point is kinda irrelevent. as ive said its a work in progress and ill tweak it as i go.
I've seen a number of posts about how banning Hoopa doesn't nerf Psychic, thus we shouldn't ban it. When the council discusses these suspects I make sure we're initiating a suspect because it fits within our tiering philosophy.
For reference, that philosophy has three central elements.
1. No complex bans
2. Ban broken, unhealthy, and uncompetitive things.
3. No single type should be overpowered.
At no point did number 3 enter the discussion as a good reason to suspect / ban hoopa. This suspect has nothing to do with nerfing Psychic.
truedrew made a post earlier about how the council didn't post as much reasoning this time. I'm on mobile at the moment, but I'll go back through our discussion and summarize it here when I get to a computer. Among other things, we discussed if the purpose of this test was to nerf Psychic. Most of us (maybe all, but I need to look back to be sure) didn't think that was the purpose of this and I think we all agreed there would be better ways to accomplish that, should it be our goal.
As I wrote in my first post in this thread that wasn't the announcement (or a response to someone's initial reaction to the suspect) this test is intended to be about whether or not Hoopa is broken.
The broken aspect of the philosophy means it is too good for the metagame to handle. Similar cases that were banned were Greninja, Mega-Metagross, and Mega-Mawile (all too strong to reliably check).
The metagame built by nerfing Dark to such a degree after thoroughly analyzing the effects of that nerf actually looks to be an even better metagame for Psychic than this one, meaning that Psychic still won't lose its spot as the best type. It'll stay dominant regardless of whether or not Hoopa-Unbound goes.
If you truly want to bring any form of balance to this metagame then you shouldn't be trying to identify a Pokemon as broken like this. Want to knock Psychic down a peg or three?Actually go for a Pokemon that hurts the type to lose. Because you know what Pokemon you could ban which would cause a massive drop in Psychic's ability to dominate while not removing anything irreplaceable for its secondary typing? Victini. I'm not saying to ban Victini. But if you're trying to make our metagame healthier, this is not the way to do it.
tl;dr: Banning Hoopa-Unbound will risk centralizing our metagame even more while completely failing to dethrone Psychic as the best type. If you want to nerf Psychic then there's better ways to do it.
You say that Hoopa-Unbound's removal will barely affect Psychic overall performance, but even still, can give loads of types a better chance against it. As I have said in my previous posts, I am pretty sure that most people here would rather face a Meloetta team (or whatever replacement you would want to use) than a Hoopa-Unbound Psychic team, due to the difference of how predictable they are and the way of getting around said mons.
Furthermore, the entire purpose behind the suspect doesn't have anything to do with nerfing Psychic. I am pretty sure me and rest of the people defending the ban side (Eien and others) don't really care about positions that types (essentially Dark and Psychic in this case) will perform in the metagame or usage, but rather, banning a Pokemon that is uncompetitive for the metagame on its own nature.
To sum it up, I can't see how banning Hoopa-Unbound would even lead to metagame centralization in first place. It could possibly free Psychic and Dark in means of teambuilding and allow them to explore other mons and strategies which aren't crucially dependant on Hoopa-Unbound, as well as easening pressure on most of the other existing types in a Psychic matchup, thus bringing a healthier environment for the metagame.
And hoopa doesnt have insane coverage? But i will give you the U turn momentum that did help with the switches it forced.
Fire I do kind of get the sun pressure can be alot on dark however it can be mitigated with clever use of sand but yes sun pressure is alot but i dont feel its as one sided as your making it out to be.
Water i do get rain teams do cause alot of pressure, however this is the same with many teams such as bug, steel and fairy due to the pressure of the swift swim pair. Balanced water i can see causing a problem due to Azu generally having better support on balanced teams so I understand that.
Electric is the one I don't get as much purely to lack of knowledge on the matchup, if you explained how the matchup works ill give my opinion on it after.
I dont see why banded terrakion will be a thing i should think its there for more reason than to threaten a mon on a matchup they have an upper hand on. Dark has other options when it comes to threatening fighting it does have other options, a set ive been trialling is Zen Headbutt Hydro Pump Sharpedo Mega which I'm finding some results with however it is early days. Hoopa was also a scarf user before mega sableye was banned so I dont really see your point and for you to state that I'm 'Quite wrong' is one that is unfounded.
If you want a more in-deep analysis about matchups against dark hit me up in PMs, but the offensive pressure created by Fire teams and sun can beat dark easily especially Mega Charizard Y which has access to Focus Blast in tandem with its other moves. Water is always a problem and dark has little to no checks to it, sorry but I don't want to autolose to Azumarill, Keldeo, and Mega Gyarados when I use dark. Electric has access to damn good special attackers which Dark doesn't have access to stop them bar Ttar which has no way of recovery plus Thundurus is problematic especially mixed. Dark has no other options bar Honchkrow and Sableye threatening fighting most Fighting pokemon survives a hit from mega sharpedo.
On to other matters! Dream Eater Gengar, I'm not sure where to start, so are there any specific flaws or questions you have about the ban argument? This would just help me know what points I need to clarify or expand upon. Otherwise, I'll just go on some tangential point that I'm not sure really benefits either of us.
I've also been writing this for a really long time, so I haven't even read the 3rd page yet. I'll do that at some other time...
Quick Edit:
Yeah just want to reiterate, the point is not to nerf Psychic but to ban a broken Pokemon.
The whole basing arguments on stats is deeply flawed, playing with numbers is easy I can build my arguments on these but that doesn't mean they are always true, there's always exceptions, people that experiments, if one person ran the specs set doesn't mean it's everywhere on the ladder. Also to be honest, I fail to see how Hoopa-U is broken. All the points that were made versus other banned Pokemon makes no sens here and the only reason you guys think Hoopa-U is banned it's because of usage stats. Hoopa-U threatens 0 type, it's slow and predictable, has the same power as a lot of unbanned Pokemon see Landorus, capitalize on an error like various Pokemon see Mega Pinsir, Mega Gyarados, Landorus, Excadrill, Manaphy. What makes Hoopa-U that special? Nothing.
I've seen a number of posts about how banning Hoopa doesn't nerf Psychic, thus we shouldn't ban it. When the council discusses these suspects I make sure we're initiating a suspect because it fits within our tiering philosophy.
For reference, that philosophy has three central elements.
1. No complex bans
2. Ban broken, unhealthy, and uncompetitive things.
3. No single type should be overpowered.
At no point did number 3 enter the discussion as a good reason to suspect / ban hoopa. This suspect has nothing to do with nerfing Psychic.
As I wrote in my first post in this thread that wasn't the announcement (or a response to someone's initial reaction to the suspect) this test is intended to be about whether or not Hoopa is broken.
The broken aspect of the philosophy means it is too good for the metagame to handle. Similar cases that were banned were Greninja, Mega-Metagross, and Mega-Mawile (all too strong to reliably check).
In my opinion, this isn't OU and we shouldn't take the Pokemon alone. We have to follow our own guides and stop copying others. And everyone on the pro-ban is understanding our arguments wrong, we are not discussing that the point of banning Hoopa-U is just to nerf Psychic. We are talking about the effect on the metagame, banning Hoopa-U brings NOTHING to the table except loss, why would a healthy person with no problems commit suicide? That's what were doing with our metagame. It has been healthy after Mega Sableye ban but we are trying to drive it into suicide. Sorry but when the discussion was first posted saying that we need ''New points to suspect Hoopa-U" and none were given I see no reason for re-suspecting it, no new points were risen ever since. The pro-ban side is recycling old arguments and now have added usage stats because its mentioned unlike before. All of the banned threats are no where near Hoopa-U in power and the pressure they put on the opponent. Greninja was banned for having an insane movepool which makes it unpredictable (I still don't agree cause people pushed stupid sets just to get it banned but lol whatever), Mega Metagross was banned for destroying a various number of types same as Mega Mawile and both of them were bulky able to tank hits and had priority. I don't really find Hoopa-U is unhealthy but it is on the same line as Landorus, Mega Gyarados, and Manaphy, pretty sure points were risen in the past against Landorus but none were taken seriously, so why Hoopa-U and not one of these? Questions and questions.
I honestly don't think we should be going with a no ban just because dark will get nerfed as well. As scp himself has said before, thinking about how low a type will get on usage or viability is not our concern, the reason why ghost fell so low. We should instead be looking into the metagame. Mentioning how dark will lose vs a plethora of types is a very bad argument as it has nothing to do with our tiering philosophy. Hoopa might be the backbone of many dark teams, and I don't know if it's broken or not, but is sure as hell is unhealthy, and that is a good enough reason to ban it IMO, following the tiering philosophy.
I honestly don't think we should be going with a no ban just because dark will get nerfed as well. As scp himself has said before, thinking about how low a type will get on usage or viability is not our concern, the reason why ghost fell so low. We should instead be looking into the metagame. Mentioning how dark will lose vs a plethora of types is a very bad argument as it has nothing to do with our tiering philosophy. Hoopa might be the backbone of many dark teams, and I don't know if it's broken or not, but is sure as hell is unhealthy, and that is a good enough reason to ban it IMO, following the tiering philosophy.
Excuse me, I don't know how that's a bad argument. Yes scp stated that we shouldn't look at the type but look at the metagame in general and that's what were doing. We're not saying Dark is going to be low in usage but 5 types will gain a lot of usage and psychic will be nerfed a bit. We're saying that banning Hoopa-U will be useless, Psychic will always be at the top, 0 type will gain usage since all of them aren't affected by Hoopa-U directed, the only thing we get will be the loss of Dark that means a loss of versatility in the metagame. Do we really want that? no.
Excuse me, I don't know how that's a bad argument. Yes scp stated that we shouldn't look at the type but look at the metagame in general and that's what were doing. We're not saying Dark is going to be low in usage but 5 types will gain a lot of usage and psychic will be nerfed a bit. We're saying that banning Hoopa-U will be useless, Psychic will always be at the top, 0 type will gain usage since all of them aren't affected by Hoopa-U directed, the only thing we get will be the loss of Dark that means a loss of versatility in the metagame. Do we really want that? no.
Again, as scp said, the main intention of the suspect had nothing to do with psychic idk why you bring it up. I don't really think our intention was nerfing any type or buffing others. Also tbh I would be glad if types like electric grass and fire had an easier time on the ladder. As you said banning hoopa will bring a worse matchup for dark vs a few types. Don't you think nerfing a type (dark) and "buffing" 3-5 other types is good for the metagame?
Again, as scp said, the main intention of the suspect had nothing to do with psychic idk why you bring it up. I don't really think our intention was nerfing any type or buffing others. Also tbh I would be glad if types like electric grass and fire had an easier time on the ladder. As you said banning hoopa will bring a worse matchup for dark vs a few types. Don't you think nerfing a type (dark) and "buffing" 3-5 other types is good for the metagame?
Unless I'm misunderstanding the post, what does Hoopa-U directly do against those types that threaten their viability? Even the Psychic set tends to run moves that aren't directly SE against them, and banning Hoopa-U wouldn't solve any of the biggest problems (Electric having a lack of physical attackers, Grass just being a poor typing overall, Fire being absolutely murdered if it goes near a pebble).
Similar arguments were made for the Mega Sableye argument (making certain underappreciated types viable), and while the Mega Sableye ban certainly did eliminate the need for Poison Fang Nidoqueen or forcing Electric to plan entirely around it, I don't feel that Hoopa-U restricts teambuiilding in the same way.
Unless I'm misunderstanding the post, what does Hoopa-U directly do against those types that threaten their viability? Even the Psychic set tends to run moves that aren't directly SE against them, and banning Hoopa-U wouldn't solve any of the biggest problems (Electric having a lack of physical attackers, Grass just being a poor typing overall, Fire being absolutely murdered if it goes near a pebble).
Similar arguments were made for the Mega Sableye argument (making certain underappreciated types viable), and while the Mega Sableye ban certainly did eliminate the need for Poison Fang Nidoqueen or forcing Electric to plan entirely around it, I don't feel that Hoopa-U restricts teambuiilding in the same way.
At least we all can agree on that: Hoopa-U isn't as centralising as Sableye was in the current metagame. In fact I don't think I've ever heard someone say: "I need to run this mon/move so I don't lose to Hoopa."
So let me give my opinion about Hoopa-Unbound and this suspect. I think this suspect will have flaws. Most people are going to vote what benefits their main and/or favourite Type. What I'm trying to tell here is that Ghost mains are more likely to vote Global Ban than Dark Mains, who don't really care about facing Hoopa-Unbound and they would be losing it themselves, which would be harmful to them and their main type. I think this is the main way people will decide their vote in this suspect. Although this is unevitable, because even the council can vote with this mindset, though less likely. I'd like some sort of solution to this for future suspects, though I can't think of one right now.
About Hoopa-Unbound, I think banning it will affect a decent amount of matchup for both Psychic and Dark. I'll cover some notable matchups briefly.
Psychic vs Steel This matchup will become harder without a steelbreaker. Although there are alternatives, such as Mew and Mega Gallade, they're usually used for other purposes, or a different mega is used. I see a Global Ban benefiting Steel in this matchup.
Psychic vs Ghost This matchup will become harder too. Although Mega Sableye got banned and the regular Sableyes are now around rocking a Prankster Will-O-Wisp, I don't see it doing that much to Hoopa-Unbound as the Choice Scarf set isn't as prevalent as it is on Dark. Ghost doesn't really have a check and heavily rely on using stuff just for it. If Hoopa-Unbound does get banned. I see a rise of Meloetta possibly happening. Although this doesn't really help Ghost, it is easier to deal with Psychic.
Dark vs Psychic without Hoopa-Unbound dealing with Substitute Mega Gardevoir can be a lot harder. Hoopa-Unbound that are used on Psychic aren't really dealing with Dark so in this scenario, removing Hoopa-Unbound is beneficial for Psychic(!). The common revenge killing scenarios of Hoopa-Unbound, Victini, Mega Gardevoir and heaps of fodders will go if Hoopa-Unbound gets a Global Ban.
Dark vs Fighting Fighting will have an easier time dealing with Dark if Hoopa-Unbound gets the boot. The lack of a Substitute Calm Mind Keldeo check hurts. Sableye and Mandibuzz will still remain a major threat towards Fighting. I think Substitute Calm Mind Keldeo will have an increase in usage if Hoopa-Unbound does get banned. Just because it can 6-0 if Dark doesn't take major precautions.
Dark vs Ghost This matchup won't change at all if Hoopa-Unbound does get banned. Dark has too many things Ghost doesn't like and removing Hoopa-Unbound can make Dark users use that spot for Weavile or something, which doesn't really help.
Dark vs Poison once the Poison|Dark Pokémon are removed, Hoopa-Unbound is a threat to Poison. It goes through Scolipede's Protect and doesn't care about specially based attacks coming its way due to its high Special Defense stat. Poison has to use multiple Choice Scarf Pokémon if they want to deal with this, which I find somewhat centralizing. A Payapa Berry can be used too on something, but that doesn't change the fact it's somewhat centralizing for this matchup.
I know I didn't cover everything, but these are my main thoughts about the Suspect Test. If you're going to vote, please don't do it for the sake of your own main type, but actually think about it. My opinion about it is that Hoopa-Unbound does NOT need a Global Ban. Psychic doesn't really get affected by one. It can use alternatives for specific roles. Dark will really get hit pretty hard if the Global Ban does happen and I find it sad to see that Dark might become another victim of the lack of Type-Only Bans. Please think before you vote! It might be benificial to your main type if you ban it, but think about other types too. If you are like that, stop being selfish and actually think of the consequences. Every vote matters.
After reading through the majority of the thread and seeing it. I'd like to give my opinion on Hoopa-U. I feel like Thimo is right. People are not actually thinking how banning Hoopa-U will affect the Monotype Metagame as whole, but their type in terms of viability. For example a Water and Flying main would want Hoopa-U banned while a Psyshic and Dark main wouldn't. This is basic knowledge and how some people are biased toward things they like to use. Looking at Hoopa-U at a glance I can't confidentially say that it should be banned or shouldn't be banned which makes it suspect worthy. I think I have gathered an understanding of pro ban side and Do not ban side of Hoopa-U suspect after reading multiple forum posts and reading other people's take on the metagame on Pokemon Showdown.
Do not Ban Hoopa-U arguments
Majority of do not ban Hoopa-U arguments revolve around the good it does for Dark and how on Dark Hoopa-U is a healthy Pokemon by giving Dark teams an offensive Fighting check. Although Hoopa-U is great on Psyshic teams majority of posts I've seen revolve around how Hoopa-U does more good to the metagame than it does bad. Other points that haven't been mentioned is Hoopa-U has base 80 speed being mediocre at best. The most threatening Hoopa-U sets being Choice Band, Life Orb, and Choice Specs do not fix the issue of Hoopa-U's speed. Hoopa-U's typing on Dark Psyshic gives it a glaring weakness to Bug meaning that Hoopa-U allows fast U-turners such as Landorus-Therian, Victini, and even the rare Tornadus-Therian to gain momentum. Hoopa-U's base 80 speed isn't even remedied with a Choice Scarf still getting outspeed by common Scarfers in Heracross, Victini, and Landorus-Therian. All of those common Scarfers listed threaten a Dark or Psyshic team in some way and aren't hard to fit on to a build majority of teams. Choice Scarf Hoopa-U lacks power that the other sets lack being easily countered in some cases. Although on Psyshic Hoopa-U has freedom to chose the set it desires majority of the time Hoopa-U will not be carrying the Choice Scarf to compensate for Hoopa-U's lackluster speed. One of Hoopa-U's major flaws is its low defense being a poor 60 base defense. Hoopa-U is Ohkoed by majority of physical attackers after stealth rocks. While Hoopa-U is extremely versatile and dangerous it's set is often known by the makeup of the team. For example a Mega Medicham Psyshic team would most likely be running a Choice Specs variant to get rid of Mega Medicham's counters while a Mega Gardevoir Psyshic team would run Steelbreaker or Life Orbed variant. Another example would be on Dark teams Choice Scarf is most likely option to check Fighting. The Do Not Ban argument has many good points pointing out how Hoopa-U is healthy since it provides Dark a Fighting check, how Hoopa-U's set can easily be determined by the team structure, and how Hoopa-U is easily checked.
Ban Hoopa-U arguments
Majority of arguments I've seen have centered around Hoopa-U's versatility on Psyshic teams. Majority of ban arguments people have been mentioning a popular core of Specs Hoopa-U plus Mega Medicham which beats the entire metagame with ease. A brief explanation of core is Hoopa-U gets rid of bulky Psyshic and Ghost types that wall Mega Medicham examples Slowbro, Doublade, and Mew to list a few. Specs Hoopa-U has no switch ins even Chansey is 2 Hit Koed with Rocks Up which is absurd. (Also here's the calc for those thinking I'm not telling the truth 252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO). Choice Specs Hoopa-U has no counters and the only way to beat it is to check it. Upper tier types such as Flying and Water have ways to check Hoopa-U but lower tier types like Grass and Electric lack checks to Hoopa-U. Yes it is obvious Hoopa-U isn't sweeping these teams on it's own but the most common playstyle in Monotype is balance meaning a combination of defensive and offensive Pokemon. Hoopa-U easily switches in on majority of defensive Pokemon and then proceeds to get a kill. This is mainly attributed to majority of types not having a reliable Dark resit and Hoopa-U having strong physical and special dark moves in Dark Pulse and Hyperspace Fury. Although the Choice Specs set has no switch ins Hoopa-U also has the option to run a Choice Band set. Although Choice Band is not as threatening and is easier to check due to Hyper Space Fury's side effect of the defense drop. Choice Band isn't that common, but can serve as a surprise factor in a game. The last viable set that can be used on Psyshic is a non choiced set with either Leftovers or Life Orb as item. Similarly to Choice Specs and Choice Band sets Life Orb Hoopa-U has no counters. The main reason non Choiced Hoopa-U was used to act as a soft Bisharp check with mind games with substitute. This allowed Psyshic teams to drop Mew as a rocker for Jirachi to better check fairy types and provide wish support for teammates. Ultimately Hoopa-U is responsible for new Psyshic teams that in theory beats every type bar Dark. Hoopa-U while frail on physical side has good base 130 Special Defense allowing it to take multiple special hits with ease especially from defensive special attackers. The main counter argument to how Hoopa-U is predictable on Dark and how it is healthy for metagame is that keeping a Pokemon solely to keep a type viable goes against the current Monotype tiering philosophy. Comparing Hoopa-U to other wallbreakers and controversial Pokemon. The biggest comparison being drawn is Lando-I and Hoopa-U. Although this comparison is not the greatest because Hoopa-U can reliably be a physical or special attacker while Lando-I is outclassed as a physical attacker by Lando-T, so generally Lando-I is special. Majority of Pokemon Hoopa-U is being compared to are not comparable at all and do not posses similar traits as Hoopa-U. The ban argument mainly revolves around Hoopa-U has no counters and its unpredictably on Psyshic teams.
Mega Medicham Psyshic before Suspect
Currently this team was most popular Psyshic team before the suspect test ulitzing Mega Medicham plus Hoopa-U core. The team had variations with Mew and Gardevoir being easily replaced with other Pokemon such as Latios, Meloetta, and Jirachi. The team had great matchups against everything bar dark and was challenge to face. Mega Medicham Psyshic suspect meta
With Hoopa-U being banned on suspect ladder Mega Medicham isn't as good as it was before. Meloetta being the obvious replacement. Although on this team Gardevoir is only member that can be replaced since Mew is needed to check Bisharp. Mega Gardevoir Psyshic before Suspect
Mega Gardevoir Psyshic has been on decline as of late although it is really good especially with Hoopa-U. Hoopa-U has always been a good filler Pokemon on Mega Gardevoir Psyshic Hoopa-U mainly used Steel breaker to break steel types Mega Gardevoir doesn't like. Jirachi is a filler Pokemon up for choice and it can be replaced with Latios or Meloetta. Mega Gardevoir Psyshic Suspect Meta
From what I have seen Mega Gardevoir is the way to go post suspect meta and will most likely pass Mega Medicham in usage Hoopa-U is banned. Like Mega Medicham Hoopa-U is replaced with Meloetta. New Psyshic teams
Majority of Psyshic teams during suspect use Choice Specs Meloetta to replace Hoopa-U. Also Assault Vest Meloetta is an option seen on Psyshic teams. One thing to note Meloetta is not Hoopa-U and doesn't break steel terams as well as Hoopa-U although it can be argued that Meloetta is a better Ghost counter than Hoopa-U. It also very important to mention that without Hoopa-U Bisharp becomes a bigger threat making 16 speed Mew at the very least necessary to outspeed Bisharp and burn it with Wil-O-Wisp. Hoopa-U doesn't change Psyshic teams drastically although it does nerf their offensive presence since Meloetta isn't Hoopa-U in terms of power.
Conclusion
In conclusion Hoopa-U is a controversial and there is no clear answer whether it should or shouldn't be banned. The dominance of Psyshic teams has become an issue in the Monotype Metagame being able to win every matchup in theory bar Dark. I haven't really seen good reasoning to keep Hoopa-U or to ban it that would sway me toward a side. Majority of the arguments I've seen in the thread talk about it how banning Hoopa-U will make Dark unviable while Psyshic users want to keep their premier wallbreaker. The amount of bias in the community is insane, when people want to save or ban certain Pokemon to make their type really good. Before you vote look at Hoopa-U compare and contrast the suspect ladder to the non suspect ladder and please think about your decision based on the affect it will have on the Monotype Metagame as a whole, not on your main type. *Thanks for reading this I know it's kind of a long read
I want to touch on a topic that hasn't exactly been talked about much, but it still should be brought up. How does Hoopa-U exactly affect lower-tiered types? There's a few that I can make defenses for from my personal experience with them, and to show that even if Hoopa was banned, their viability in our current metagame won't change very much.
I want to start with talking about Poison since that's a type that on paper is an amazing anti-meta type to use, that Hoopa in theory threatens, and is a possible reason as to why it isn't used much. To get a proper comparison of how it is Hoopa vs Non-Hoopa metagame, I decided to ladder with it to get my reqs. I managed to go into the high 1600s (about Top 30), and with a relatively decent 81 GXE, so I think I have a good view of how not having Hoopa affects it. With my time laddering, it doesn't that much. Scolipede + Choice Scarf Gengar (+ a Psychic immunity, however I didn't bother to run that with the team I was using) already have a surprisingly easy time beating Psychic, regardless of the presence of Hoopa-U (not to mention, Drapion/Skunktank can Pursuit-Trap it, and Skunk also runs priority). Even against Dark, Scoli has a relatively easy time against that, so long as hazards aren't present, and Mandibuzz is checked (which is not terribly hard to do with Nidoking and/or Queen). Skuntank/Drapion can again Pursuit-Trap it as well, and be able to take majority of its attacks with a decent amount of health to spare. It was interesting to me that I didn't notice very much of a change of the difficulty of versing both. I also want to confirm that Poison isa great type to use right now, as it has tactical advantages against Flying, Psychic, Water, and Steel (Fighting is about evenly matched if you decide to run Crobat). The only matchups I honestly had problems against was Dragon and Ground (which is a much better chance than Dragon, you just need to stay on your toes, and make sure Mega Camerupt and/or [Psychic] Lando-I stay in check. I've found Curse Mega Venusaur to be especially useful against that matchup).
Hoopa did almost little change to how the matches went, Fire for the most part had the advantage against both, aside from Tyranitar (who I was able to effectively check thanks to a combination of Infernape, Heatran, and Volcanion pressure). Hoopa is incredibly weak to U-Turn (which both Victini and Darmanitan usually run), and Darks defensive core can be easily broken thanks to how great Fire is Hyper-Offensively. Mandibuzz gets 2KO'd by any Special Attack/Fire Attack in the sun, and Sableye is near useless. Because of that, it is also a challenge to send Hoopa in at all. As for Fire vs. Psychic, I can imagine similar (Zard Y/Volcanion can break Slowbro, anything can break Jirachi, Victini/Darmanitan/Strong Physical Attackers in general, under the sun especially, beat Mew. For the most part this is evenly matched otherwise).
Lastly, I want to bring up Ice. This is a type I personally tend to use in non serious matches, and at very rare times laddering (I barely do at all because it is such a challenge to use in general). Prior to the suspect, Kyurem-B/Mamoswine/Mega Glalie had little problems breaking Dark's Defensive Core, so, so long as you kept Kyurem's health up, you were able to revenge kill Hoopa later in the match. This is almost no different without Hoopa-U, if not ever so slightly easier (since Hoopa can break through Avalugg at most times). It's still a bit of a rough matchup because of Ttar (Mega and Non Mega), Bisharp, and occasionally Mega Houndoom, but Hoopa has little role there I've noticed, and Ice still has an even chance (or at least as even of a chance) to win as it did with Hoopa-U. The macthup is nearly unchanged.
In conclusion, I've noticed these 3 in particular do not get threatened by Hoopa-U. Ghost unfortunately is considered near unviable, so there isn't much of a case to make for that anymore, Rock I'd imagine would be similar (a combination of Mega Diancie/Aggron, Terrakion, and/or Rhyperior help against both types). Electric, I'll admit, you could probably make a case for, because of its high Special Defense and its relative ease to break their Defensive Core. As for Grass, I'd imagine it would be a little easier, but not by much. Psychic would still be a challenge regardless, and Dark Whimsicott/Breloom/Ferrothorn give it just as even of a chance as any of these other types. I'm not going incredibly in-depth with these because I have not intensively played them to be entirely sure and have the evidence to say something about those. The main point I want make make with this though is Hoopa-U did not, does not, and will not affect the viability of any of these types (with the exception of Electric, and if you can count it, Ghost). With or without it their viability would be the same, and they are not entirely threatened by it. Banning it would not fix very much.
I am voting ban because whilst obtaining reqs something rare happened. I actually enjoyed the ladder . No hoopa u every other game, loads of versatility and underused types reappearing. Some may say its a dumb reason to vote ban but i don't care enough to type 500 word posts on a game scenes
I will go into a deeper look into deceits arguments when i get my wifi back when im on mobile one minor thing i do want to question is why would you try pursuit trap a mandibuzz? surely you come off worse against it due to rocky helmet recoil. But as I said i will look deeper into these arguments when my wifi is back
I will go into a deeper look into deceits arguments when i get my wifi back when im on mobile one minor thing i do want to question is why would you try pursuit trap a mandibuzz? surely you come off worse against it due to rocky helmet recoil. But as I said i will look deeper into these arguments when my wifi is back
After reading (some of) the posts in this thread, I take a similar stance as iVid. I'm definitely not sure whether or not Hoopa needs to be banned. However, I do think Hoopa plays a large role in defensive usage in this tier. Very popular defensive pokemon like skarmory, zapdos, lanturn, normal core, etc all have poor matchup vs hoopa unbound. LO Hoopa on psychic in particular(the leading set based on usage) plays a teambreaker role very well & fits onto most teams nicely due to psychic's support as well as it's own coverage w/ moves like tbolt, DP, & gunk shot. This isn't to say hoopa should be banned though. Individually, hoopa loses to a lot of other mons due to it's lackluster speed & vulnerable defenses on mixed sets. I think the main issue comes with psychic's great support with slowbro, mew, and especially with other new psychic support pokemon that have risen in usage due to the sableye ban. These pokemon make it very difficult for Hoopa to be targeted, and in some matchups allow a psychic player to completely control how hoopa is played out.
Ok so, going off of Balto's post I want to make a few points that just came on my mind. Just pointing them out without taking any side.
I noticed "team support" was included in the post, and since we are having a suspect I wanted to remind everyone last time we were "suspecting" we ended up banning things like M-Gallade and Zapdos (note this was when we still had type bans) because of the great team support they either gave or had.
I also realised those bans were mostly silly, and that those mons are not as powerful in the current metagame. We should carefuly consider if Hoopa gets enough team support to be worth a global ban.
I also noticed how Balto correctly stated that Hoopa can be too strong against certain mons such as defensive cores, but also loses a fair amount against other mons. First mon that comes on my mind when reading this besides Hoopa is Volcarona and Gyarados. Are these mons powerful enough in the current meta? Yes. Is the team support good? Yeah kind of. Are they worth a ban? Probably not.
So I think Hoopa is really a shaky subject to talk about, I'm interested to see more opinions but I don't think Hoopa is too broken.
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