General Dubs Meta Discussion II

I've had all sorts of success with multiple team archtypes, as well as goodsuffs teams, weather, etc. One thing I noticed is that using Tyranitar on a non-dedicated weather team or goodstuffs team is probably the best way to run it. While a lot of teams will opt to run Excadrill or Landorus, you aren't completely limited to JUsT running Sand every match, and can even use it merely as a check to SwiftSwim teams if you want.

Some other things I've had a lot of success with:

Thundurus-I: This is a no brainer, but Thundy has been on 90% of the teams I've built lately. Bulky Thundurus is such a champ and counters so many playstyles, while being bulky as crap and powerful without a lot of investment.

Suicune+Breloom Core/Lead: I know this is a weird one but I can't get over how good this core works (Thanks Laga!). With Water/Ice/Grass coverage, you hit a ton of things hard, and with access to Tailwind, Roar, Spore and Priority between them, you check about half the metagame easily, from Trick Room to Weather. Roar especially destroys Trick Room handily, which is a huge bonus for any Tailwind team.

Fast Top: I've recently tried using the 252 Jolly Hitmontop and I find it actually pretty good. It doesn't hit quite as hard as Adamant Bulky Top, but it will almost always win that "Speed Tie" everyone freaks about, and it now ties with Jolly Breloom, who gets easily OHKO'd by Gem CC. It also completely stomps the vast majority of Bisharp spreads (most run a lot of bulk) and also OHKOs. Additionally, it never gets outsped by the random Fast TTar unless Scarfed. Overall, I find Fast Top to be great on the right team.
The fun old Tornadus + Mamoswine lead will be leaving you crying a lot. :s

I'll just introduce a team of mine that has a few unorthodox sets, but has worked out to heavy success, peaking at 2069 on the ladder, which isn't something amazing, but shows it can handle itself against the higher level players.


Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 96 SpD / 96 SpD
Bold Nature
- Psyshock
- Icy Wind
- Sunny Day
- Skill Swap

Cresselia is amazing. There isn't much to be said, it is bulky and just great at supporting the team. On this particular team, Cresselia is actually my main Anti-Rain lead along with Breloom, as it can steal Swift Swim or Storm Drain from something, and then spam Sunny Day while they struggle to stop me. Skill Swap was actually not my original choice, which if I remember correctly was Light Screen. I added it as an afterthought, and never looked back.


Tornadus @ Flying Gem
Trait: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Superpower
- Taunt
- Protect

The more I use Tornadus, the more I like it. Capable of OHKOing a Latios with Acrobatics, it hits hard and fast, while keeping common leads like Hitmontop at bay. Superpower is pretty obvious, so I won't say much about it, other than how great it is at hitting things like Tyranitar. Taunt was originally Tailwind, but the lack of Taunt on anything else led me to put it on Tornadus, who can be dangerous against Scrafty leads.


Breloom @ Focus Sash
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Spore
- Protect

This set is more or less standard, but it performed the jobs it needed to. Spore proved effective against Trick Room teams, and along with Tornadus, it made most Trick Room teams fall over before they could even start. Even Amoonguss leads failed; Amoonguss would get screwed over by Acrobatics, then Breloom would just put the setter to sleep. It also took care of Sand, and Rain somewhat. While the Sash meant it lost the KO on Excadrill, Cresselia could easily cripple Excadrill, either with Skill Swap or Sunny Day, while Breloom dished out damage. Rain was more or less spamming Bullet Seed while Cresselia ruined everyone with Sunny Day. Still, it was probably my most common lead, proving just how versatile it was.


Heatran @ Chople Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Protect

This was the last member I added to the team, while it seemed very counter-intuitive to add a second Steel type to the team, Heatran patched up the teams' weaknesses very nicely, handling both Sun and Hail teams, and I assured myself the Ground weakness would not be a problem, as 3 other members of my team were immune and the last one resisted. I decided to add in Skill Swap after adding in Heatran, as passing Levitate to it could still be helpful, and I later stuck to it, since it was an amazing utility for shutting down weather abusers, Gliscor, and more. The set itself is mostly standard, except for Substitute, though in honesty a lot of people are starting to use it. Chople Berry was useful for tanking Fighting attacks like a Fighting Gem Close Combat from Hitmontop, and Shuca was pretty redundant even if I didn't have Levitate, as I had 4 possible switch ins to tank Earthquake and the likes.


Hydreigon @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 52 HP / 252 SpA / 204 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Protect

This is basically my "raw offensive power" set. It can nab a lot of KOs. The spread allows it to get the jump on max speed Jolly Landorus-Therian and below, which is usual all I need, bar the rare max speed Kyurem sets. The rest is put into bulk. Dark Pulse and Flamethrower are typical, not much to say.


Metagross @ Steel Gem
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Bullet Punch
- Protect

A standard Metagross, except with Steel Gem for more power, and it is Shiny for wracking up misses, courtesy of the Shiny glare. I originally had Occa, but after adding in Heatran, I decided I wouldn't really need it, and went with Steel Gem, which allows it to hit Cresselia hard with Steel Gem Meteor Mash, and take out various threats with Steel Gem Bullet Punch. Earthquake was pretty obvious, as my team hardly cares about Earthquake damage, so in most cases I would be free to spam it to my heart's content.


Some replays of the team:
- A 3-0 vs Laga in Game 1 of Doubles Dash finals (Some hax involved)
- A Trick Room team that is easily dismantled by Breloom
- A very odd RainRoom team gets dismantled by a Storm Drain Heatran
 
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I've had literally no success with Metagross or Tornadus sadly, except when I used Sub/Rain Dance/Hurricane to sweep Pwnemon in the Minitour :P

How do you use them @Nollan ?
 
im going to agree with pwnemon on breloom. it certainly isn't anything to be taken lightly (i usually carry at least one hard check to it and i ev my mons to outspeed it a lot), but when i use it, it's typically there just to scare weather based mons. i think its one of those mons that was big when everyone discovered it, but is just generally prepared for now and can be underwhelming at times. an example being at us nationals, where people (over?)prepared for it due to its success in recent tournaments. i think a lot of breloom still made top cut, but people knew how to play against it and some of its 'oomph' was gone because of that. it also doesn't help that it's walled by thundurus, aka one of the most useful supporters next to cresselia, unless it has stone edge (but why would you do that lol).

e: also unban sleep clause cos loom sux

e2: ps nollan, storm drain heatran didn't do as much work as sunny day cress, js
 
I've had literally no success with Metagross or Tornadus sadly, except when I used Sub/Rain Dance/Hurricane to sweep Pwnemon in the Minitour :p

How do you use them @Nollan ?
I thought I covered that. It is a Goodstuff team, Metagross, Hydreigon, and Tornadus provide offensive presense alongside Heatran, who is basically the star of the team hands down. I'll go into more lead details:

Breloom & Tornadus/Hydreigon
Basically my Trick Room lead, Breloom can shut down setters, and Tornadus/Hydreigon can take out common Fake Out partners, Amoonguss, or Trick Room sweepers with powerful attacks.

Cresselia & Breloom
A pretty unusual Rain lead, Sunny Day shuts down the team, and Breloom can dish out damage. A lot of players don't recognize Cresselia's potential as a stop to Rain, so they do Kingdra + Politoed leads, thinking I am open, only to watch me either shut them down with Sunny Day, or Skill Swap Swift Swim off of Kingdra, ruining their chances of victory.

Heatran & Cresselia/Hydreigon
A Sun lead, though anti-Sun was not intended when making this team, it worked out. Heatran can be a complete pest for Sun to deal with, and Cresselia can remove its Ground weakness, which is often the only coverage that Sun teams usually run for Heatran. Hydreigon is sometimes my prefered choice if the opponent has something like Volcarona, so I can preserve Cresselia's bulk for later.

Heatran & Metagross
My Hail lead, which pretty much decimates every Hail team in a matter of turns. Hail teams are basically incapable of handling two Steel types, and with Sunny Day Cress and Mach Punch Breloom in the back, they will need multiple freezes to claim a victory.

Breloom & Metagross
A decent anti-Sand lead, I don't actually have a dedicated Sand lead, but my team can beat it over time by wearing threats down with Breloom Mach Punch and Bullet Seed.
 
I wasn't saying I thought you were saying they were bad. :p

I was just covering how I used them (mostly in terms of leads). The team was literally made in 5 minutes while preparing some teams from my match with Laga, but it was so successful and I have been working on it and polishing it ever since (I've used it in VGC too now, it does a pretty good job). In terms of the issues, I really don't see how you haven't been able to use Tornadus successfully, it is a terror, I've swept entire teams with it multiple times due to the raw power of Acrobatics, as shown in my match vs Laga, it does heavy damage at +0, so after a boost it is going to hurt things. In general, I like using it to keep opposing Hitmontop at bay. In general, the Flying STAB Acrobatics hits things like Amoonguss, Hitmontop, Volcarona, Latios, and others for the OHKO. In all honesty, the battle with Laga was the first time I ever used it, and I have become a bit too attached to it since, but what can I say, it is good at what it does. Metagross is a pretty common pokemon, but in general I used it less than anything else on the team, it was mostly used for blowing a hole in Cresselia with Steel Gem Meteor Mash, and taking out things with Bullet Punch, Earthquake was hardly ever used, apart from Discharge cores, and Excadrill. All I can say is to try Shiny Metagross, it distracts the opponent with the pretty colors.

Since I brought up favorites, imma put forth my favorite set ever (which also happens to be incredibly underrated in Smogon Doubles for some reason):


Rotom-Heat @ Fire Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect

Rotom-Heat is the only pokemon with an Electric/Fire typing, which gives it resistances to Flying, Fire, Electric, Grass, Ice, etc. It more or less hard-walls Zapdos, Thundurus-Therian, and Thundurus offensively (won't enjoy a Thunder Wave though). Thundurus-Therian is also underrated, but I really am not an experienced user of it, so imma ignore that. Modest Fire Gem Overheat is very powerful, scoring a OHKO on Zapdos, and dealing a minimum of 75% to a 252/252+ Thundurus. Thunderbolt and Hidden Power [Ice] provide coverage, and Protect is there bcuz it is Protect. It is pretty simple, but Rotom-Heat's typing is great for switching in, providing a load of useful resistances. Thoughts?

PS- fyi I am also a proud user of ChestoRest Sunny Day Ludicolo, Iron Ball Swagger Ninetales, and (obv) Skill Swap Cresselia :>
 

Pocket

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Hmm, thoughts on using Follow Me Jirachi with Iron Head / Metoer Mash over Metagross @Nollan ? I think this Jirachi would support your Tornadus and Hydreigon (and possibly Breloom) pretty darn well I think.
 

Laga

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I've had literally no success with Metagross or Tornadus sadly, except when I used Sub/Rain Dance/Hurricane to sweep Pwnemon in the Minitour :p
Are you joking?

Tornadus has a Flying Gem-boosted Acrobatics with power enough to OHKO Latios, and that is without a Defiant boost. Now that we talk about Defiant, yeah, Intimidating a Tornadus will cause you to do more harm to yourself than it.

Metagross is a bulky ass physical attacker that also happens to not give a shit about Intimidate. And yes, it will survive Landorus-T's super effective Earthquake easily.

I personally love using these pokemon.
 
@Pocket ; In all honesty, I don't really prefer Jirachi much, this is more of a playstyle thing, but I don't like the A) lacking offensive presense (100 isn't really going to hit hard without heavy investment), B) lack of priority attacks, which is one of the main draws to Metagross, and C) general redundancy on the team. In general, from my view, Jirachi is constantly competing with Cresselia, while they each have plenty of distinguishing options between eachother, using both tends to be pretty overdone, as they are both bulky, Psychic type supporters. I have gotten a lot of results I like from Metagross, and in general the team hasn't disappointed me (apart from its tendency to get frozen again and again and again vs Hail). Still, it is probably an option, I just prefer my Shiny Metagross :)

-EDIT- I also enjoy the ability to freely spam EQ with Metagross
 
What've been the thoughts around banning Thundurus? With Swagger it adds way too many coin flips into the game. Even when I get read and outplayed, I can just send in Thundurus and force odds in to my favor. I've played about 40 doubles games so far and only lost one to a 1 in 320 chance, a scenario caused by Thundurus forcing my opponent to have to get bounds luckier than me (which he did). It's even allowed me to beat Mizuhime and other names not as easily memorable at the top of the ladder despite me being a fresh doubles player.

That said, in the 40 games I've played so far I've had a lot of fun being able to predict and outplay people on a turn-by-turn basis. In OU the most you could outplay someone was a double switch but that was still much more reliant on team building than being able to create plays over the course of the battle (strategy vs tactics?). So I'll definitely be sticking around for awhile.
 

Arcticblast

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Swagger Thundurus (or really, Swagger anything) is far, far easier to play around in Doubles, mostly because it's Doubles - you can cripple one Pokemon, but if you can't cripple its partner then you stand a good chance of being KOd. Even bulky Thundurus has this problem, since Rock Slide is such a common move, and even with a really bulky EV spread it's still susceptible to Sand damage and a few KOs.

Also, no suspect tests until gen6.
 
Swagger itself can be problematic, as it can turn a lost game into a basic 50/50 coin flip in a lot of cases, but suspects will be looked into later (Gen 6).
 
What've been the thoughts around banning Thundurus? With Swagger it adds way too many coin flips into the game. Even when I get read and outplayed, I can just send in Thundurus and force odds in to my favor. I've played about 40 doubles games so far and only lost one to a 1 in 320 chance, a scenario caused by Thundurus forcing my opponent to have to get bounds luckier than me (which he did). It's even allowed me to beat Mizuhime and other names not as easily memorable at the top of the ladder despite me being a fresh doubles player.

That said, in the 40 games I've played so far I've had a lot of fun being able to predict and outplay people on a turn-by-turn basis. In OU the most you could outplay someone was a double switch but that was still much more reliant on team building than being able to create plays over the course of the battle (strategy vs tactics?). So I'll definitely be sticking around for awhile.
If we ban Swagger I quit. Banning Thundy is a really bad idea as well, as it can be beaten if you play around it. It's an S Rank threat though, so you should really prepare for it.

Honestly, Luck will always play a role in Pokemon, and even more so in Doubles when there are 4 Pokemon and 2 actions per side per turn.

Welcome to Doubles though!
 
I never said I wanted to ban it, I just said if anything, it would be chosen over Thundy. Neither of them will be happening though, most likely. :/
 

Arcticblast

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I've decided to post every team I've successfully used in Doubles here. Not every single team - some of those have been pretty damn bad - but every team that was good at some point.

I started off with this team; having used a Mienshao/Musharna lead core in VGC '11 I decided to try it out here.
Musharna @ Leftovers
Trait: Telepathy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Psychic
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
- Imprison

Mienshao @ Focus Sash
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Hi Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Wide Guard

Abomasnow @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Discharge
- Volt Switch
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Normal Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Explosion
- Brick Break

Breloom @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Technician
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Helping Hand
This team got me to #8, which is actually the highest I've gotten on the Smogon Doubles ladder. However, at this time, the metagame was largely unsettled, and people were still trying things out. It was a wrecking ball back in the day, but once the metagame settled it did progressively worse. I wouldn't recommend it now - aside from Musharna and Mienshao themselves, this team is highly reliant on keeping up offensive momentum to succeed, and losing said momentum often resulted in a horrific loss. The team is mostly based around spamming powerful spread moves powered up by Musharna and/or Breloom's Helping Hand. This is actually an okay example of what not to do (especially the whole "not using Protect" thing). I considered revisiting it, but never did. Overall, a team with a good amount of wasted potential in the current metagame. 5/10

Once that team started dying, I tried to put together a new team faced around something fun. I really liked Gigalith aesthetically at the time (still do), and thought it had some potential, so I tried this out:
Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Atk / 104 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Protect
- Superpower

Gigalith @ Passho Berry
Trait: Sand Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Superpower

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Skill Swap
- Gyro Ball
- Protect

Mew @ Iron Ball
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Fake Out
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
- Psychic

Gastrodon @ Rindo Berry
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
- Earth Power
- Muddy Water
- Recover
- Sludge Bomb

Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
- Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Protect
- Dragon Pulse
Now THIS team fared much better. The idea, obviously, was to sweep with Gigalith, by setting up Sand and Trick Room. While Gigalith itself didn't do quite as well (it was a nice hole puncher at least), I learned here that Eruption Heatran is truly devastating. Most of my sweeps were Eruptran sweeps. Bronzong was probably Heatran's favorite partner, giving the master volcano Levitate (and even Storm Drain in some cases). This is also my first team where I really customized the team itself to handle specific threats to the team - Sludge Bomb let Gastrodon do some damage to Ludicolo, Dragon Pulse hit Lati@s, and Gigalith's Passho Berry helped a bit against Rain (particularly Rotom-W). Overall, a pretty good team, but not exactly perfect. 6/10

Now then. Forget the silliness of Gigalith. Forget the mind-reading abilities of Musharna (for now). Stare in pure terror at the brutal efficiency of spamming a 100% accurate spread move with a base power of 120. Yep, this is it.
Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Ice Shard
- Protect

Kyurem @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 20 Def / 252 SAtk / 236 Spd
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Blizzard
- Earth Power
- Protect / Dragon Pulse

Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Wide Guard
- Sucker Punch / Feint

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 32 SDef / 224 Spd
Timid Nature
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Jellicent @ Wacan Berry
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Recover
- Scald
- Shadow Ball / Protect
- Trick Room

Genesect @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Blizzard
- U-turn
- Explosion
- Thunderbolt
This is basically the best team I've ever built. Not just the best Doubles team I've ever built. The single best team I've ever built. In my semifinal matches against gr8astard in the original Doubles tournament, this team netted me my only victory (albeit with some hax involved). Hell, it even inspired a shitty OU spinoff. A Blizzspamming core of Kyurem and Abomasnow, a Goodstuffs lineup of Hitmontop, Jellicent, and the jack of all trades in the mighty Genesect. The idea is simple: kill all Ice resists, get rid of opposing weather, weaken everything else, and sweep with Kyurem's STAB Blizzard. Genesect is fantastic, jumping back and forth in the battle with U-Turn and its good typing, and even doing Kyurem's job on occasion. Honestly, this team just did a fantastic job at pretty much everything except dealing with Tailwind and certain Sun teams, although even those could be beaten. This team was at its peak around the time cstick posted his RMT with a Genesect in it as well, so it's not like I was the only one. It has issues with Chandelure TR teams though, as well as Volcarona. Both at the same time is absolute hell... Either way, I personally give this team a 10/10. I love it.

This is the only team I've revisited, and the slashes reflect that. I realized how cool Feint was for one, and Jellicent really needed Protect.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hail to the Chief's original retirement marked the end of an era for me, and I didn't make any successful teams for a while. Eventually I did though - let's get started on that!

This team was my second attempt to make a really good Manaphy team, and while the former was (unsuccessfully) based around sheer disruption, this one is more centered around a Manaphy sweep. That shit's deadly in Rain.
Manaphy @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Musharna (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Telepathy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Imprison
- Helping Hand
- Psychic

Riolu @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 SDef
Careful Nature
- Follow Me
- Rain Dance
- Hi Jump Kick
- Feint

Toxicroak @ Payapa Berry
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt

Salamence @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Heat Wave
- Tailwind

Thundurus (M) @ Damp Rock
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 196 HP / 72 SAtk / 220 SDef / 20 Spd
Calm Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Rain Dance
- Thunder Wave
Yes, that's not just a manual rain team, that's a manual rain team with a Riolu on it! I was originally attracted to Riolu for its Follow Me, which has higher priority than Fake Out when considering Prankster. Feint is also a generally useful move, and Hi Jump Kick makes it... not be Taunt bait? As for why this team has no Politoed: I hate that fucking frog and its stupid grin. I used to like you, Politoed. Then you got good and everyone used you. That expression isn't goofy any more, it's stupid. Anyway, this team is meant to support Manaphy as much as possible - rain to power it up, Musharna to avoid Surfs while stopping Trick Room and providing Helping Hand support, Toxicroak to disrupt and take Surfs, Salamence to mess with speed control, and Thundurus to fuck with everything. 6/10 because it's hard to pull everything together on the team though, but once Manaphy gets set up it's basically game over.

Once Follow Me Jirachi was released, I just knew I had to make a team around it. I figured Hydreigon would greatly appreciate what Jirachi brought - Follow Me and Icy Wind in particular. The rest followed.
Jirachi @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 148 SDef / 108 Spd
Calm Nature
- Helping Hand
- Follow Me
- Icy Wind
- Psychic

Hydreigon (M) @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave
- Protect

Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Fake Out
- Wide Guard

Jellicent @ Wacan Berry
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Recover
- Scald
- Trick Room
- Protect

Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Low Kick
- Protect

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Yache Berry
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Protect
This is a pretty basic Goodstuffs team, really, designed more to stop the opponent than it is to get my own strategy through. It does a pretty damn good job at doing just that fairly consistently. Jellicent checks Trick Room, Tyranitar does that in addition to ending other weathers, Lando-T packs Intimidate and discourages DisQuake spam, Jirachi is just a badass, etc. 8/10 purely because it's not heavily matchup reliant (although Rain can be an issue) and it packs enough of punch to get through.

I have one last team to talk about. I've been working with Deoxys-A for the past week or so, and it's been a blast. That thing is just fucking powerful.
lol

you guys think I'm giving up my current team that quickly?

Here, have a song:

So that's my adventure through Doubles, documented via my best teams. If you've stuck with me this far, thanks for reading!
 
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BLOOD TOTEM

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http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-46748636

Just played a game of LC dubs with apt-get.
Seems like it would be a really cool meta with tons of cool picks. Just been thinking some through in my head and there are a couple of Pokemon that fill the same rolls as those in the regular tier.
Murkrow is basically Thundurus w/ prankster Thunder Wave and other generally annoying moves along with good offenses it would really troubles teams that aren't prepared.
Scraggy takes the role of Hitmontop with Intimidate and Fake Out. Unfortunately it's lacking in other support options like Wide Guard but it does have decent bulk ans pseudo recovery in drain punch.
Drilbur is the Pokemon for weather abuse with a powerful earthquake and sand rush it would surely punch holes in most teams.
There are plenty of Pokemon with access to Icy Wind notably Porygon who has great bulk with Eviolite and access to reliable recovery. It also packs a plethora of support moves like Thunder wave and Trick Room. Tri Attack is also cool with the 20pc chance to status. Trace can also prove to be a nightmare to face.
Timburr and Mantyke both have access to both Wide Guard and Helping Hand. It is also worth noting that with Water Absorb Mantyke has two imunities.
There are tons of pokemon who would benefit from follow me support. The pairing apt uses in the replay seems like it would be very strong if it could set up properly considering Clamperls gargantuan special attack stat. Other users of Follow Me / Rage Powder include Foongus, Paras, Squirtle, Togepi and Venonat.

What do you guys think would be the biggest threats / best LC dubs mons?
 
First off, I assume either Misdreavus or Bronzor would be the best Trick Room setter, though Porygon would also do nicely. Purrloin would be similar to Murkrow, but mostly outclassed, however I would assume Encore would help it stand out enough for some use. Clamperl and Cubone would make for some really scary Trick Room sweepers. Mienfoo is still obviously good, providing Fake Out support, high speed, and Flying Gem Acrobatics. Snover and Hippopotas are the only weather starters, so I'm viewing Ferroseed as a good choice for countering weather, and it has Thunder Wave and Sunny Day, making it the closest thing to Cresselia that LC Doubles would have imo. I'm also viewing Lileep as the best counter to manual Rain, which might be fairly popular with some Prankster support. I'm personally interested in Venonat, as it could be useful with Skill Swap, reactivating weather while giving Snover Tinted Lens or something along those lines. Anyways, that's my list, cuz I don't wanna spoil the fun for everyone else. :]
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
guys this is not a thread for lc doubles discussion, if you want to do that then make an om about it

thanks bye
 

Arcticblast

Trans rights are human rights
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
guys Pwnemon isn't a mod

but he's right, and you guys can go make an LC doubles thread in OM. Just keep it out of the Doubles forum.
 
Alright, so I've been testing out a fun little team featuring some underrated sets in Smogon Doubles, such as defensive Rotom-Wash and bulky Mamoswine (now I just need to make a team using bulky Ludicolo). Here is a replay showcasing the defensive Rotom set:


Rotom-Wash @ Chesto Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Will O' Wisp
- Rest

Some of you may recognize this set from Babbytron's Worlds Team, some of you may not. Either way, I have been using it as a good check to Rain and Sand, as, apart from irritable flinches and misses, it can ruin a lot of Sand sweepers thanks to Will O' Wisp. While uninvested, its SpA is still solid enough to dish out damage, and Rotom's heavy longetivity more then helps in making up for it. Rest is great for healing off damage, and can also remove harmful status effects such as Thunder Wave and Swagger. The EVs allow it to tank both a Dragon Gem Draco Meteor off of Latios and a Fighting Gem Close Combat off of Terrakion. There isn't much more to be said, a Washing Machine that flies and is spewinf Water, Electricity, and Fire is going to be effective. :p
 
Something else I've seen popping up a bit is Scarf Mamoswine. I'll post the set as it pertains to SmogDubs later, but for now, just know that it is fast and BULKY surprisingly.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK! Did the calcs and the speed creep checks and I've adapted the Choice Scarf set that Arash Ommati has made famous through winning Masters at Worlds this year.

Here's a link to the analysis: http://nuggetbridge.com/reports/mean-streets-world-champion-masters-2013-vgc-world-champion-report/

Now, onto the sets.


The Original:



Mamoswine (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 124 HP / 44 Atk / 100 Def / 44 SDef / 196 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Icicle Spear
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Rock Slide

Benchmarks:
  • Outspeeds Max/Positive Natured Base 115s
  • Lives Scarf Jolly Lando-T Superpower
  • Kills said Lando after the Defense Drop
  • Checks every single Lando-T set (and most Thundurus sets)
  • Lives Scarf Timid Latios DM (not Gem), and Modest about half the time
  • Also kills Garchomp
  • Can run Superpower to check Choice Scarf Tyranitar



The Edit:



Mamoswine (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Atk / 184 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Icicle Spear
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Rock Slide

Benchmarks:
  • Same across the board, but bulkier
  • More Attack
  • Same Speed

Now for the Calcs

124 HP+100 Def+44 SDef= 268 EVs

252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 124 HP / 100 Def Mamoswine: 304-358 (77.55 - 91.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 124 HP / 44 SpD Mamoswine: 322-381 (82.14 - 97.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 HP+0 Def+0 SDef = 252 EVs

252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 342-404 (80.66 - 95.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 346-408 (81.6 - 96.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Now, as you can see, the new calcs show similar bulk and the same Speed with fewer EVs (Thanks to the extra 50 levels) and thus gains nearly double the Attack EVs.

Thoughts?
 
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I personally haven't liked Scarf Mamoswine much. The reason (imo) that Mean scored a win at Worlds was not because of Scarf Mamo's skill or versatility, but more of the fact a lot of genies were going to be used in Worlds, and Mean wanted a good way to counter them (Great reasoning on his part, though). A big point is that the team was built AROUND Scarf Mamoswine, its not just the sort of thing you can slap on any team, it takes a lot of precise support, and even then, it will likely never showcase the talents it did on the Worlds stage again, because the genies will soon be overlooked for a lot of new threats coming into X&Y.

However, I have been trying out bulkier Mamoswine variants to heavy success in Smogon Doubles, and have beaten a ton of higher level players on the ladder with my "The Last Nollan" alt, the team for which features my own "bulky Mamoswine" set (just realized I liked it so much I slapped it on my team w/ bulky Rotom-W too x_x):


Mamoswine @ Ice Gem
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Protect

Mamoswine's common weakness to priority makes it very appreciative of Protect, which is why I prefer this set to the Scarf variant that Mean used. While this set does lose out on OHKOs on Garchomp and Sash/Yache Landorus-T before they can attack, it is more flexible, fits on teams with more ease, and is capable of dealing heavier damage to threats. Thanks to Ice Gem, Ice Shard has a 81.25% chance to OHKO Tornadus, and heavily damages Dragons and Flying types, especially Landorus sets. Icicle Crash is for raw power, it OHKOs Garchomp straight through a Yache Berry, which is a very impressive feat (Ice Shard can do 74% max including Yache as well). But it gets even better, as a -1 Ice Gem Icicle Crash actually manages a OHKO on Landorus-T w/ Yache Berry (deals 104% minimum)! Without a Yache Berry, Ice Shard can KO Landorus-T 93.75% of the time, factoring in the attack drop. The EVs are enough to allow you to tank a Life Orb Mach Punch off of Breloom and Conkeldurr, and a Steel Gem Bullet Punch off of Metagross, which is really all Mamoswine needs (I have been trying some other spreads, but simple 252/252/4 seems to deliver for the mammoth). On my team, Mamoswine functions as a stop to Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Thundurus. The former two give the rest of my team a load of trouble, and the later is just plain irritating to deal with. However, it also can work outside of those roles as a stop to fast threats with Ice Shard, and a fierce sweeper with Icicle Crash. While its low speed may make sweeping sound like a mere dream, I have a Thundurus and Icy Wind Cresselia on the team, slowing things down so it can move first.
 
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I agree that 252 HP Mamo is generally the best set, as it gives it an impressive amount of bulk to deal with its usual aggressors, and Thick Fat is probably the second best ability it could have asked for, besides maybe Technician.
 

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