General Doubles Metagame Thread

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Pocket

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My mistake, BlankZero, I had CB on TTar when I did the calcs ;x Still the spread I chose saves 4 EVs while having virtually identicaly bulk to yours.

I've been dabbling with Sun Teams (which includes Ninetales!) - peaked #1 on the ladder (is shit) but was surpassed today by MosNanDa ;(

I had to make several tweaks to make this team work. I got owned by a Sand team with Rock Slide / EQ spam and even more embarrassingly to Terrakion + Whimsicott combo, which made me realize I need more Levitate Pokemon + Rock resist. I also realized that my team is too fucking slow (can't rely on TR forever), so I added Shiftry, which also helps with Ground-, Rock-, and Water-types better than what I had before (Hydreigon). I considered other fast Grass users like Skymin or Sawsbuck, but Fake Out + Sucker Punch priority won me over to Shiftry.

The point of this team is pretty much to set up Sun and Trick Room so Victini and Heatran can burn down everything with V-destroy and Eruption spam, respectively.

Death by Terrakion - Rock Slide flinch meant that I couldn't finish off +6 Terrakion on turn 2. Sitrus Berry lets Terrakion tank a second Psyshock (who uses Sitrus Berry Terrakion -_-), and I proceed to be crushed by Rock Slide spam...

Pwned by QuakeSlide...http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-21387367 - Losing Gastrodon in turn 2 = gg. I was using Kyurem-B this time as my glue mon, but I ditched it later on for Hydreigon (which was replaced by Shiftry for Speed). Cresselia failed as it is finished by +2 Rock Slide from Excadrill before setting up Trick Room.

Rain vs Sunhttp://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-21430591 - He miserably failed to pull off the Perish Trap combo in the beginning. Predicted LRod Manectric switch-in turn 5 to nail it with Hydro Pump instead. Victini should have Brick Break KO Politoed instead of Vaporeon; didn't expect Cresselia to be slower than the frog -_-;;

Sand vs Sunhttp://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-21414709 - Funny game where Rotom-W and Victini takes down Tyranitar turn 1. Sun for the rest of the game

vs noobcubed - this was one of the better games I had on the ladder. Shiftry's faster Fake Out + Ninetales Fire Blast took out Mienshao turn 1, giving me an instant lead. The rest of the battle didn't go quite as smoothly, though. Gastrodon's Ice Beam is weak shit that couldn't KO Landorus-T, which costed my Shiftry, and the opponent's Specs Trick Rotom-W with HP Grass harassed my team by tricking Specs onto Victini as it used Trick Room and threatening to KO my Gastrodon. Once the Trick Room went up, Eruptran cleaned the floor.

vs noobcubed R2http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-30385440 - noobcube didn't fall for the same trick twice as he switched out his Mienshao to Rotom-W on Fake Out + Fire Blast. Landorus-T intimidates Shiftry, but its Seed Bomb KOs Rotom-W anyways, which is great for me because it was a major nuisance last game. Decided to try Will-O-Wisp > Disable on Ninetales. Wide Guard shenanigans at the end stopped Eruption from Heatran, but not V-destroy from Victini.
 

Punchshroom

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Woohoo, I saw that noobcubed R2 match!

My team is Hail + Trick Room, which screws up almost any playstyle one way or another. Even in the half-mirror match, I can use my other 'weather' effect to gain the advantage. It's quite the cockblock team, will post here when able.
 
Nice replays Pocket! I've been messing around with a Tailwind team recently, trying to get the EVs right, but the team still has some holes in it, mainly against gimmick teams and sometimes TR. I'll have to post it here I guess so you all can help, which Pwemon and Arcticblast have already been doing lol.
 

Laga

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I recall someone posting in this thread, that No Guard works to benefit your teammates. So i tested it with my buddy Iron Manatee, and this is what we found out.

This replay shows that No Guard does indeed in fact


not affect your teammates :[ Though it would be pretty cool if it did
 

Pocket

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where's the no guard? lol

it was still a cool game, though, so thanks for the replay, Laga! Losing that Genesect turn 1 made it rather tough for you to recover. Switching your Hydreigon out for Suicune would have been a wiser choice than simply Double-Protecting (which you want to avoid if you can) on turn 5, allowing you to preserve Hydreigon's bulk end-game vs Rotom-W (good thing Hydro Pump missed, he didn't use HP Ice >_<).
 
So, I've had a thought - why are we using Ninetales for Sun when we could, realistically, be using something else instead? Sunny day, that is!

Sunny Day

Changes the weather to sunny for five turns


Heat Rock
The holder's Sunny Day will create sunshine lasting for eight turns rather than five.

Really, Sunny Day seems like a really cool move when you get down to it, since 8 turns is nearly a lifetime in Doubles. Especially when you realize you can use a much much MUCH better pokemon over Ninetales simply by using this move, and to top it all off you can induce Sun at any time! :D A huge boost, ain't it?


Sableye @ Heat Rock
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Sunny Day
- Recover
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch / Protect

Given that Sableye gets priority Sunny Day, it seems only logical to use it as our first example of what Sunny Day is capable of. Packing priority Recovery, the amazing move Fake Out, Sunny Day, and Sucker Punch or Protect depending what you desire, this Sableye is a priority machine! It's not the bulkiest thing in the world, but use it right and it will get you far.
You know, this person is right in the regard that there are better sun inducers in Doubles than Ninetales since a Heat Rock makes sun last 8 turns. Here is one alternative that I like:


Kyurem-Black @ Heat Rock
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
Nature: Impish
-Sunny Day
-Roost
-Fusion Bolt
-Dragon Claw

With its very good bulk and few weaknesses, Kyurem-Black sets up Sunny Day fairly reliably, and has Roost to heal off damage and set up sun a second time if need be. Fusion Bolt hits many common Rain Pokemon for major damage, especially Politoed. Dragon Claw hits the bountiful Dragons such as Garchomp and the Latis for major damage, but generally Fusion Bolt is used more. EVs maximize physical bulk, letting it take moves such as Rock Slide better, while increasing its reliability as a sun setter.

*I may tweak these EVs to hit certain defense benchmarks.
 
You know, this person is right in the regard that there are better sun inducers in Doubles than Ninetales since a Heat Rock makes sun last 8 turns. Here is one alternative that I like:


Kyurem-Black @ Heat Rock
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
Nature: Impish
-Sunny Day
-Roost
-Fusion Bolt
-Dragon Claw

With its very good bulk and few weaknesses, Kyurem-Black sets up Sunny Day fairly reliably, and has Roost to heal off damage and set up sun a second time if need be. Fusion Bolt hits many common Rain Pokemon for major damage, especially Politoed. Dragon Claw hits the bountiful Dragons such as Garchomp and the Latis for major damage, but generally Fusion Bolt is used more. EVs maximize physical bulk, letting it take moves such as Rock Slide better, while increasing its reliability as a sun setter.

*I may tweak these EVs to hit certain defense benchmarks.
While it is an interesting idea, why wouldn't you just use Cresselia, rather than sacrificing KyuB's massive amount of power?
 
Hey I've been playing doubles lately because it seemed really interesting. Two of the things that work in doubles well that don't in singles is hail and tailwind, or "Hail wind."
Here is a team I've built that I think has a lot of potential but I'm missing some key things.



Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SAtk / 56 Atk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake
- Protect

Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Wide Guard

Latias (F) @ Haban Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spd
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Helping Hand
- Draco Meteor
- Light Screen

Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Blizzard
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect

Suicune @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 116 HP / 252 SAtk / 140 Spd
Modest Nature
- Tailwind
- Hydro Pump
- Blizzard
- Toxic

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 156 Spd / 200 Atk / 152 SAtk
Mild Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Blizzard
- Protect
- Earth Power


My basic strategy is to weaken the opponents team enough with hail and good coverage as a tailwind sweep can be setup for nidoking or kyurem-b to finish.

Alot of these sets are personalized for my team. I'll go through each poke.

Abomasnow has earthquake to deal with tr eruptiontran teams with its focus sash.

I believe Hitmontop is the second best support pokemon to cresselia. Wide guard allows me to counter disquake comboes and rip them apart with abomasnow.

I needed something to setup tailwind so i chose latias. It allows me to take on latios with haban berry while providing light screen and hh support. It's basically a faster cresselia. The evs are to outspeed garchomp. It's a great tool against rain teams.

I wanted something to resist rock slide and be able to sweep in tailwind. I chose nidoking because he wrecks when bulky pokes are worn down by hail. Blizzard is so I can take advantadge of hail.

I chose suicune because it sets up tail wind and can abuse it. I think it's mandatory on tailwind teams for its great bulk. Hydro pump dents things for nidoqueen and blizzard is once again taking advantadge of hail.

Kyurem B is often used as a wall breaker for Nidoking in tailwind. He hits hard and has great coverage.
 
Intimidate definitely isn't broken, all it does is encourage switching and lengthen the average doubles game, which as far as I can tell actually rewards skillful playing. Looking at better players play you see more switches than lower-ranked players.
 
Hey I've been playing doubles lately because it seemed really interesting. Two of the things that work in doubles well that don't in singles is hail and tailwind, or "Hail wind."
Here is a team I've built that I think has a lot of potential but I'm missing some key things.



Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SAtk / 56 Atk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake
- Protect

Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Wide Guard

Latias (F) @ Haban Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spd
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Helping Hand
- Draco Meteor
- Light Screen

Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Blizzard
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect

Suicune @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 116 HP / 252 SAtk / 140 Spd
Modest Nature
- Tailwind
- Hydro Pump
- Blizzard
- Toxic

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 156 Spd / 200 Atk / 152 SAtk
Mild Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Blizzard
- Protect
- Earth Power


My basic strategy is to weaken the opponents team enough with hail and good coverage as a tailwind sweep can be setup for nidoking or kyurem-b to finish.

Alot of these sets are personalized for my team. I'll go through each poke.

Abomasnow has earthquake to deal with tr eruptiontran teams with its focus sash.

I believe Hitmontop is the second best support pokemon to cresselia. Wide guard allows me to counter disquake comboes and rip them apart with abomasnow.

I needed something to setup tailwind so i chose latias. It allows me to take on latios with haban berry while providing light screen and hh support. It's basically a faster cresselia. The evs are to outspeed garchomp. It's a great tool against rain teams.

I wanted something to resist rock slide and be able to sweep in tailwind. I chose nidoking because he wrecks when bulky pokes are worn down by hail. Blizzard is so I can take advantadge of hail.

I chose suicune because it sets up tail wind and can abuse it. I think it's mandatory on tailwind teams for its great bulk. Hydro pump dents things for nidoqueen and blizzard is once again taking advantadge of hail.

Kyurem B is often used as a wall breaker for Nidoking in tailwind. He hits hard and has great coverage.
Breloom also has great synergy on Tailwind teams with Suicune, and Zapdos is another great setter.
 

Laga

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the no guard was on conkeldurr (it was doubles custom and no guard conk because i can :^D)

EDIT: and also, about the thread I posted last time; that was the wrong replay, because I am a flippin retard :|

This is the replay where I test No Guard's effect on your parnter!!
And btw, Conk has Sheer Cold, No Guard and some random punches that I just clicked, while the Magikarp has Fissure and Sheer Cold.


Anyways, I also feel like sharing a replay of a match I had against Audiosurfer with you guys. The match was pretty damn close, and some nice examples of when and how to use Protect like a boss came from both sides. I was also testing a Skymin over my Genesect on this team.

Lagalaga vs. Audiosurfer

Overall, a pretty cool match, probably only think that because he is the best player i had faced in at least 2 days lol

EDIT: And I also have a replay of me against cstick, another game that shows how Protect mindgames can decide who takes the win.

Lagalaga vs. cstick
I edited this post because I don't want to double(s) post ;)
 
Where's our games Laga?! :(

I actually have some replays myself of my own TW team I've been working on with some help from Pwnemon that might get an RMT soon. I'll save this post so I can edit it in when I get back to my computer.

Sandstorm (Tyranitar) @ Chople Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SDef / 76 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Protect
- Fire Punch

Stabby Bird (Zapdos) @ Yache Berry
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 140 HP / 252 SAtk / 116 Spd
Modest Nature
- Tailwind
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Discharge
- Protect

Monster (Kyurem-Black) @ Haban Berry
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Naughty Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Protect
- Dragon Claw
- Fusion Bolt

Waterbear (Suicune) @ Wacan Berry
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 116 HP / 252 SAtk / 140 Spd
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Tailwind
- Protect

Bouncer (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Yache Berry
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Def / 40 SDef / 56 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Protect

Annoyance (Breloom) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Protect
- Mach Punch


The EVs are pretty specific on a few mons, and more Standard on others. When I do my RMT, I'll explain them better, but here's a couple of the benchmarks.
  • TTar survives -1 Adamant Fight Gem Hitmontop's CC, underspeeds Ninetales by 1 point, but outspeeds genies under TW, and survives Timid Gem Draco Meteor OUTSIDE OF SAND frmo Latios about 93.5% of the time.
  • Landorus outspeeds Scarf Jolly Lando-T under Tailwind, and lives several Pokemon's Ice Beam and Ice Punch. Once again, I'll go over specifics in the RMT.
  • Suicune's set was "borrowed" from Laga's TW team (we both had a very similar setup already.
  • Zapdos is bulky as crap and still overpowered, and Tailwind just makes it a huge threat, forming a DisQuake combo with Landorus.
  • Breloom outspeeds so much under Tailwind it isn't funny. It's like using Trick Room with Amoongus.
  • Kyu-B is a stallbreaker of the bulky variety, and under TW, it is a FAST wrecking ball that can eat a Dragon-Type move and follow-up with a OHKO to every dragon in the metagame.



Hope you enjoy the replays. I'm going to try laddering this team, although I do have a pretty severe TR weakness I have to play around. Reuniclus and Bronzong are huge threats once TR goes up, as I have very little to hit them with. I have thought about using Gravity/HH Musharna to help Lando break Bronzong, but I have no idea where to fit him in.
 

Laga

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Nice replays Blank, I am glad you like the offensive Suicune set. Looking forward to seeing your team in an RMT man :]

I know this is some nitpicking I should be doing when your RMT comes out, but I can't help but suggest you speed creep with your Kyurem-B. To outspeed neutral speed Kingdra (the most common), you need 176 Speed EVs. Then put 80 into HP and 252 into attack unless you want to EV the HP to survive common stuff or reduce the attack since it already kills stuff or something.
 
Nice replays Blank, I am glad you like the offensive Suicune set. Looking forward to seeing your team in an RMT man :]

I know this is some nitpicking I should be doing when your RMT comes out, but I can't help but suggest you speed creep with your Kyurem-B. To outspeed neutral speed Kingdra (the most common), you need 176 Speed EVs. Then put 80 into HP and 252 into attack unless you want to EV the HP to survive common stuff or reduce the attack since it already kills stuff or something.
Don't worry Laga, I'll link my RMT here for you lol.

Also, the bulk I get from the HP EVs is priceless. You'll see the calcs in the RMT, but let's just say they are surprisingly good.
 

Laga

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I would like to share a replay with you guys. It was a battle against the one and only GuyWhoLikesCapsLock where i use a paralysis goodstuff team and he uses a sand team with a bunch of huge threats. The point of this replay is to encourage switches, since a lot of the switches made in this match were gamechanging, and many of them were really good. It was also one of the two people I met on the ladder today who was really good at doubles, the other being Punchshroom :]

Lagalaga vs GTFOROTFLOL

Also, nice RMTs Punchshroom and Blank :]
 
I was bored last night so I decided to ladder for a few hours; I ended up #1 on the ladder as "the Batterwitch". Just thought I'd post something I noticed.

Why isn't trick room on every team? It really should be as it is the most overpowered move in this metagame, hands down. Honestly, I think it's fair to compare having trick room in doubles to having stealth rocks in singles. There is no team whatsoever that cannot make good use of trick room. With sleep clause in effect, amoonguss can't keep trick room in check. Middle speed trick room is by far the most dangerous type of team in this meta and I didn't even see it once. Anyone have an explanation?
 
Because TR has a few hard counters, most notably Taunt, but stall teams as well.
And don't say "Stall in Doubles? Lol?" because it is possible and I managed to peak at #7 with Rainstall just before the ladder reset, and I still win far more often with Rainstall than I lose (7-8 victories for each loss), and losses against Trick Room are even rarer because my team is built to deal with TR.

Yeah, TR is powerful, but does not ensure a victory.

That being said, TR is better than many give it credit for. But I think many (mostly noobs) also like to play with their OU powerhouses as well as their favorites ('Zard!), and most fan favorites aren't exactly slow, so yeah...
Also, many threat Doubles as an all-out attacking metagame, and as such they don't want to waste slots on "useless" moves like Trick Room.
 

Laga

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On every team i make, I always run a Trick Room buster core of 2 pokes that i lead with against Trick Room teams. A lot of people think that Trick Room is completely by far the best strategy, and sure, it is pretty darn good, but there are many ways to put a thorn in the side of it.

· If you want to run RP Amouunguss, it is almost a sitting duck, as well as your TR setter unless it is a Chandelure in which case EQ takes care of it, forcing you to switch out both pokes if you actually want to damage things

· It has -6 Priority, meaning it is extremely weak to Taunt and Sleep, even more so than Tailwind (This is why some people do run Tailwind)

· There is no 3, trick room is pretty dang good :P
 
I counter Trick Room with a combination of Sleep and Phazing. Roar is a great move in this Metagame, stopping setup, including Trick Room with its -7 Priority.
 
Those are all fine ways of checking TR, but that wasn't really what I was getting at. What everyone has really said sorta proves there's this preconceived notion of what TR is. Break that notion for a moment if you will. Trick room is excellent utility on any team, being able to reverse the advantage after losing a weather war, slow down your opponent as they tailwind, in addition to the general reverse the opponent's trick room.

We could get ever farther into this by asking what happens when my opponent's trick room team has some fast pokemon, but that's probably a conversation for another day.
 

Pocket

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Trick Room is a great utility move to have, no doubt! You don't really need to have a team dedicated to Trick Room to take advantage of it. Every day Pokemon like Tyranitar, Politoed, Heatran, or Scrafty can make good use of the reversal in speed. Equating Trick Room in Doubles to Stealth Rock in Singles is a bit of a stretch, but it's definitely a valuable move for all the reasons you've stated, Crow350!

Pure TR teams are probably less consistent, because it always has a turn or two of vulnerability when Trick Room isn't up. If you can take out the TR setter, then the source of Trick Room is gone, and the TR users are gonna be open to major damage.

TR HO is really effective in Doubles, though, and it probably has a greater impact in this format than weather. I've been laddering with a Sun Trick Room team, and I wreck shit with Heatran's Eruption and Victini's V-destroy. When the opponent tries to stall out the last 1 or 2 turns of Trick Room by using Protect or switching into resistances / death fodder, I like to foil their plans by using Trick Room with both of my Pokemon (ie Victini & Cresselia) to activate a new TR (another 5 turns of destruction!)
 

Audiosurfer

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Topic of the Week 4

Ok guys, it's about time for a new Topic of the Week! First off, points for the last Topic of the Week. The award for Best Poster goes to Darkmalice for his in-depth post that went step by step and showed exactly how to go about optimizing the EV spread on a Pokemon, showing two very important things for EV optimization: 1) How to calculate spreads and 2) How to find out what you need your Pokemon to do for your team to succeed. Other good posters include Blankzero, Pocket, lucariojr and Braverius. Pocket and Blankzero showed multiple optimized EV spreads and also made sure to explain the benchmarks that the improved spreads met, lucariojr explained his process for finding benchmarks that he needs Pokemon to meet, and Braverius gave good critique on other people's sets as well as helping them optimize their own EVs while providing benchmarks that his own spreads met.

Points breakdown:
+ 3 - Darkmalice
+ 2 - Pocket, Blankzero, Braverius, lucariojr
+ 1 - Audiosurfer

Onto the new Topic of the Week: Teambuilding


For many people, one of the most intimidating parts of the Doubles metagame is teambuilding. Many people struggle with how to approach the creation of a Doubles team. For this topic, we will discuss what the best ways are to go about creating a Doubles team as well as things such as how to find the best Pokemon for your team, how to successfully execute an idea, what the best partners are for different team archetypes, etc. Here are some good things to try and address in your posts:
  • What are good ways to come up with a starting point for a team?
  • What do you do in teambuilding once you've come up with your initial core?
  • How much of your team do you have rely on one strategy?
  • How much of your team should be devoted to helping check opposing strategies?
  • How do you go about revising your team once you've made it?

Remember that you can go to the front page and check the leaderboard for the Topic of the Week :)
 
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