The Jolteon/Thundurus-T talk isn't the point, though. I just don't agree with this thread in its entirety and believe it's a bad influence on new players.Can we seriously stop the whole Jolteon/Thundurus-T talk? It's getting really annoying, and it obviously isn't going anywhere. What's been said has been said.
A bad influence on new players? We aren't saying you can't use these mons, just that there are generally better options. Take Haxorus vs Garchomp, Haxorus does have quite a bit more attack and Taunt+Moldbreaker is cool sometimes. It can also utilize a double dance set. Garchomp, while being weaker, has a very important ground stab, is naturally faster, and it is bulkier. There are reasons to use Haxorus, but Chomp is generally the better choice. This is what we are trying to convey to newer players, so they can use the best possible option for there team and succeed more, because nobody likes losing. New players should find out what fits there team, yes, like if your team is really rocks weak thundurus-t may not be the best option, but that isn't the point. The point is that in a vaccuum one pokemon generally outclasses another.The Jolteon/Thundurus-T talk isn't the point, though. I just don't agree with this thread in its entirety and believe it's a bad influence on new players.
It's so ridiculously subjective, blowing the benefits way out of proportion while ignoring the cons, basically just making it the preference of the poster, while new players should find out what works for them, I wouldn't encourage anyone to read this thread for those reasons.
Except they don't outclass eachother in a vaccuum, they're different pokemon.. And I agree, they should use the best possible option FOR THEIR TEAM and succeed more.A bad influence on new players? We aren't saying you can't use these mons, just that there are generally better options. Take Haxorus vs Garchomp, Haxorus does have quite a bit more attack and Taunt+Moldbreaker is cool sometimes. It can also utilize a double dance set. Garchomp, while being weaker, has a very important ground stab, is naturally faster, and it is bulkier. There are reasons to use Haxorus, but Chomp is generally the better choice. This is what we are trying to convey to newer players, so they can use the best possible option for there team and succeed more, because nobody likes losing. New players should find out what fits there team, yes, like if your team is really rocks weak thundurus-t may not be the best option, but that isn't the point. The point is that in a vaccuum one pokemon generally outclasses another.
quick question what is the speed for breloom? and you should have impish not jolly other than that I totally agree.Here's a good one
Don't use this...
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Impish Nature
- Acrobatics
- Fling
- Protect
- Earthquake
Why not? I have seen so many people on the ladder using Fling + Acrobatics Gliscor. I know that, on paper, this seems like a really good idea. You get to Toxic something while also causing damage with Fling and then you get to use a fully powered Acrobatics! What more could you ask for, right? Well, not exactly. While the idea of having that STAB Acrobatics to hit opponents with seems nice, it actually isn't going much to anything with zero attack investment. Even if you use a different spread that maximizes attack, you won't be hitting hard with no way to boost your attack anyway (and if you're using Swords Dance on this set, why aren't you just using the AcroBat set?). Not only that, but because you're using Fling, you only get one chance to Toxic something. If you accidentally hit a Steel type, a Pokémon with Natural Cure, or something you've already statused, then you're stuck with a useless move that can't do anything. All in all, this set just can't do what Gliscor's other sets can.
...use this instead!
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Serious Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
Why? The SubToxic set is Gliscor's best set, and the one you should choose if you want to annoy every single battler you run into on the ladder. With the combination of Substitute, Protect, and Poison Heal, you can stall out your opponents until your PP runs out. When you add Toxic into the mix, Toxic Stalling your opponent becomes as easy as clicking Protect and Substitute. The speed is just enough to outrun max speed Landorus and Adamant Lucario, meaning that the cheeky Lucario that run Ice Punch can be outsped and OHKOd by Earthquake after SR/Life Orb Recoil. Unlike the Fling + Acrobatics set, this Gliscor can Toxic your opponent as many times as you like. Sure, you miss out on Flying STAB, but you don't really need it. With Earthquake, you can hit most of the Pokémon that are immune to Toxic, so you don't really need a Flying move at all. Gliscor has much better things to do than use Fling.
And Spinda, you're insane if you think that Pokémon don't outclass each other. I wrote the analysis on Gliscor, tested many of its sets, and I can assure you that SubToxic outclasses Fling + Acrobatics.
56 Spe EVs will let you be faster than Adamant Breloom, 148 for Jolly!quick question what is the speed for breloom? and you should have impish not jolly other than that I totally agree.
Fling+Thief is Gliscor's best set imo.Here's a good one
Don't use this...
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Impish Nature
- Acrobatics
- Fling
- Protect
- Earthquake
Why not? I have seen so many people on the ladder using Fling + Acrobatics Gliscor. I know that, on paper, this seems like a really good idea. You get to Toxic something while also causing damage with Fling and then you get to use a fully powered Acrobatics! What more could you ask for, right? Well, not exactly. While the idea of having that STAB Acrobatics to hit opponents with seems nice, it actually isn't going much to anything with zero attack investment. Even if you use a different spread that maximizes attack, you won't be hitting hard with no way to boost your attack anyway (and if you're using Swords Dance on this set, why aren't you just using the AcroBat set?). Not only that, but because you're using Fling, you only get one chance to Toxic something. If you accidentally hit a Steel type, a Pokémon with Natural Cure, or something you've already statused, then you're stuck with a useless move that can't do anything. All in all, this set just can't do what Gliscor's other sets can.
...use this instead!
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
Why? The SubToxic set is Gliscor's best set, and the one you should choose if you want to annoy every single battler you run into on the ladder. With the combination of Substitute, Protect, and Poison Heal, you can stall out your opponents until your PP runs out. When you add Toxic into the mix, Toxic Stalling your opponent becomes as easy as clicking Protect and Substitute. The speed is just enough to outrun max speed Landorus and Adamant Lucario, meaning that the cheeky Lucario that run Ice Punch can be outsped and OHKOd by Earthquake after SR/Life Orb Recoil. Unlike the Fling + Acrobatics set, this Gliscor can Toxic your opponent as many times as you like. Sure, you miss out on Flying STAB, but you don't really need it. With Earthquake, you can hit most of the Pokémon that are immune to Toxic, so you don't really need a Flying move at all. Gliscor has much better things to do than use Fling.
And Spinda, you're insane if you think that Pokémon don't outclass each other. I wrote the analysis on Gliscor, tested many of its sets, and I can assure you that SubToxic outclasses Fling + Acrobatics.
AcroFling is actually really good on certain balance teams, I haven't used such a defensive acrofling set, but I'm sure it works aswell.Here's a good one
Don't use this...
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Impish Nature
- Acrobatics
- Fling
- Protect
- Earthquake
Why not? I have seen so many people on the ladder using Fling + Acrobatics Gliscor. I know that, on paper, this seems like a really good idea. You get to Toxic something while also causing damage with Fling and then you get to use a fully powered Acrobatics! What more could you ask for, right? Well, not exactly. While the idea of having that STAB Acrobatics to hit opponents with seems nice, it actually isn't going much to anything with zero attack investment. Even if you use a different spread that maximizes attack, you won't be hitting hard with no way to boost your attack anyway (and if you're using Swords Dance on this set, why aren't you just using the AcroBat set?). Not only that, but because you're using Fling, you only get one chance to Toxic something. If you accidentally hit a Steel type, a Pokémon with Natural Cure, or something you've already statused, then you're stuck with a useless move that can't do anything. All in all, this set just can't do what Gliscor's other sets can.
...use this instead!
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Serious Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
Why? The SubToxic set is Gliscor's best set, and the one you should choose if you want to annoy every single battler you run into on the ladder. With the combination of Substitute, Protect, and Poison Heal, you can stall out your opponents until your PP runs out. When you add Toxic into the mix, Toxic Stalling your opponent becomes as easy as clicking Protect and Substitute. The speed is just enough to outrun max speed Landorus and Adamant Lucario, meaning that the cheeky Lucario that run Ice Punch can be outsped and OHKOd by Earthquake after SR/Life Orb Recoil. Unlike the Fling + Acrobatics set, this Gliscor can Toxic your opponent as many times as you like. Sure, you miss out on Flying STAB, but you don't really need it. With Earthquake, you can hit most of the Pokémon that are immune to Toxic, so you don't really need a Flying move at all. Gliscor has much better things to do than use Fling.
And Spinda, you're insane if you think that Pokémon don't outclass each other. I wrote the analysis on Gliscor, tested many of its sets, and I can assure you that SubToxic outclasses Fling + Acrobatics.
I actually meant to put Sub + Pass in the OP instead of Agility, thanks for catching that. This is a perfect example of Jolteon's niche in OU, so thanks a lot for posting this. All out attacking Jolteon has just never been good for me over Thundurus-T, but Sub + Pass Jolteon is great for passing Subs to sweepers or getting something in for free.Here's one:
Don't use this
Jolteon @ Choice Specs
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- Signal Beam
- Volt Switch
As the OP said, it's not that this set is necessarily bad; it just has a hard time finding a niche in OU, especially with Thundurus-T running around. The only reasons you'd use this instead of Thundurus-T is because of Jolteon's higher immediate Speed and lack of a Stealth Rock weaknesses, which are both very minor, especially when considering Thundurus-T has a superior movepool and, as such, more viable sets. In addition, Thundurus-T isn't beaten by Ferrothorn and can break walls thanks to that monstrous Special Attack. Please, please.... Don't use this Jolteon set.(When I was briefly doing Jolteon's analysis, why did I make this the first set?)
Use this instead
Jolteon @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
This Jolteon set has a much easier time finding a niche, as it does something Thundurus-T cannot do: Baton Pass.Gary, I do not know why you decided to suggest Baton Passing Agility with Jolteon, SubPassing is betterIn addition, there are maybe three Pokemon that could be used for Sub-Passing in OU: Jolteon, Gliscor, and Mienshao. I'd argue that Jolteon is the best out of the three not just because it's the fastest out of the three; unlike Gliscor, Jolteon actually has offensive presence, allowing it to do more than just sit around passing Substitutes (How hard is Gliscor's Earthquake hitting things?) As for Mienshao, from my experience the only real reason you'd use SubPass Mienshao is because of Regenerator. So, if you want to use Jolteon, use this set.
I completely agree with you. It's a novel concept and could work if a lot more thought was put in on the "what not to use" side of the arguments, but that doesn't seem to be the case some of the time. There's also the matter that some Pokemon and even sets shouldn't be compared. The Cloyster post on the first page is a great example of something that should be compared and there are a lot of good posts like that such as Shurtugal's Gatr vs Azumarill that show the Pokemon comparisons can work. The issues stems from what we're comparing and why. Do they do the same job in the same way? If not, that might be an issue.The Jolteon/Thundurus-T talk isn't the point, though. I just don't agree with this thread in its entirety and believe it's a bad influence on new players.
It's so ridiculously subjective, blowing the benefits way out of proportion while ignoring the cons, basically just making it the preference of the poster, while new players should find out what works for them, I wouldn't encourage anyone to read this thread for those reasons.
I have a bit of a problem with this one. There's plenty of reason to use lead Infernape. Infernape can both prevent set up and scout items with Fake Out. Politoed is an issue but you have an idea of what set it's running after you use Fake Out. Not being burned and losing Sash on Scald is always nice as well. Fake Out to break Sturdy then Overheat eliminates Lead Skarmory instantly. While I don't agree with the EV choice for that Infernape set, Infernape can at least do some damage to the ever so common lead Landorus-T with Overheat (and Scout for Lefties or Scarf with Fake Out) on top of always beating Lead Terrakion itself thanks to Fake Out; Terrakion will either get up SR but get no damage on Infernape or damage Infernape but miss out on Stealth Rock.I'm honestly really surprised that this one hasn't been brought up yet:
Don't use this....
Infernape @ Focus Sash
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SpA
Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- Fake Out / Taunt
If you're going to use Infernape in OU, please don't use the lead set. It's just so outclassed by a lot of other hazard leads that I just don't see that much of a use for this thing. Fire/Fighting is by no means a bad typing, especially sense it's good against a lot of other common leads, but the biggest problem lies in Infernape's lack of instant power and the fact that its best STAB is neutered by a very dominant playstyle in the form of rain. Even when fully invested, Infernape's Attack only reaches a depressing 307, while its Special Attack is only 244. This set basically just sets up SR, and then dies. Unlike Skarmory and Forretress who can lay both Spikes and SR, and Terrakion who can pose a offensive threat right from the start with its already high Attack stat and amazing dual STABs that aren't nuetered by weather. This set is just so outclassed that I don't see any reason to use it. Go back to Gen 4, kid.
Use this instead...
Terrakion @ Focus Sash
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Taunt
Terrakion is arguably the best SR lead right now due to its amazing dual typing, great speed, and awesome power. There isn't much in the tier that's safe from a Close Combat or a Stone Edge, and the ones that can are usually Taunt bait anyway, like Skarmory and Forretress. Terrakion has the ability to outspeed common Custap leads as well and keep them from doing their job. There really isn't much more to explain about this set, because it's so obviously good at getting the job done that it really doesn't need much explanation, and it's Terrakion. If you're looking for a team that needs an offensive SR lead, then Terrakion is probably your best bet. Even Lead Garchomp faces a bit of competition from this set, because Terrakion is faster and has access to Taunt.
That's actually the set Water Tribe used and had consistent success with, the team wasn't built around it, but it fit the team incredibly well and no other set would've worked in it's place to achieve the same amount of success. Hyper cutter is great and all but the ability to absorb status and regenerating health is incredibly useful.Any Gliscor set that uses Acrobatics needs both Swords Dance and a way to not get revenge killed my anything with HP Ice or a water move (hell, just about any special attack can OHKO you). You need to have either Substitute or Agility or else you're a sitting duck. Why would you use that set over the regular Acrobatics set, which has Hyper Cutter instead so you can't be beaten by things like Gyarados. Also, a Jolly nature is great and all, except that even at +2, you'll find that Acrobatics won't be doing enough damage to the things you need it to. So when HP Ice Landorus-T comes in and revenge kills you, you'll wish you had Flying Gem or a Substitute. I'm sorry but that set is trying to do too many things at once. Gliscor just can't be both offensive and defensive, and it's outclassed by both SubToxic (as a Toxic spreader) and AcroBat (as a sweeper).
I understand what you're saying about Pokémon being good when the team fits them, I made the same argument about Charizard a while back. You're right when you say that any team can be built around a given set. BUT it takes considerable team building skills to be able to do that, and most of the time newer players should stick to the standard sets because they are generally the ones that are most effective. I've made teams with Charizard that have had great success. But would I ever recommend that a new player use it? No, never. It's simply outclassed.
Because this is in my opinion misguiding new players, which is the opposite of what smogon should be doing, if we're comparing pokemon that don't even do the same thing, we could confuse new players significantly, this is about the future of competitive pokemon players.Instead of posting in this thread to complain why not... not post and let the thread carry on happily?
I am merely of the opinion that controversial threads should have feedback from both sides, because readers should know how controversial it is.If you don't agree with this thread, then don't post here, simple as that. Let the people who do like this thread to continue posting and contribute. No need to ruin it for everybody else. If the OU moderators really had a problem with this thread, then it wouldn't have been created or managed to stay up for this long. A subject like this is very controversial, and disagreeing is fine, but when people come on this thread and try to derail it, I wont allow that.
Your posts about disagreeing with sets are fine, but if you want to continue posting here, then don't continue to complain about how you dislike the thread itself. Clearly you've made your point, people have heard your opinion, and now we move on. Creating arguments saying why you disagree with this thread is not considered staying on topic, and is thus derailing the thread. If you're on some kind of mission to get this thread removed, well that's not going to happen unless I'm contacted by a mod telling me that this thread is in the wrong. Like Clever said, this has been very successful in other sub forums, and I would hate for it to be ruined here.I am merely of the opinion that controversial threads should have feedback from both sides, because readers should know how controversial it is.
If there was a thread about how OP Keldeo was, would I be derailing it by proposing arguments suggesting otherwise?
Because from my point of view, especially considering some of the examples, it doesn't help noobs pick what's best for their team at all.But there is no need to post that a thread is bad. Obviously you have your opinions on this thread but the thread has been successful in other tiers and no one has complained about it. The point of the thread is to help noobs pick the pokemon who is best for their team over a pokemon who could make the team worse. It is also a place for experienced players to vent on the dumb stuff they see on the ladder and why another pokemon should be used over it. What's wrong with that?
Well then I guess all the other metagames that have adopted this thread are doomed to the same fate. I guess we're all going down together.Because from my point of view, especially considering some of the examples, it doesn't help noobs pick what's best for their team at all.
Pokemon that are obviously outclassed also aren't allowed, and pokemon that aren't obviously outclassed actually have big benefits over other pokemon that make it work on other teams, meaning experienced players can't even rant about any pokemon unless they include the team it was on.
This will be my last post here, but if this thread becomes popular and the examples don't start getting limited to pokemon who perform the same role the same way, I seriously fear for the next generation of pokemon players.
So sad to think that it's had to come to that. I never thought a thread with such a simple motive would lead to such negative discussion.Jesus christ, does this thread need a fucking blacklist or something?
Now hold on; Spinda has a valid point but I think he's going about it the wrong way, but even so I agree he is derailing the thread longer than it should be so I'll keep this brief.If you don't agree with this thread, then don't post here, simple as that. Let the people who do like this thread to continue posting and contribute. No need to ruin it for everybody else. If the OU moderators really had a problem with this thread, then it wouldn't have been created or managed to stay up for this long. A subject like this is very controversial, and disagreeing is fine, but when people come on this thread and try to derail it, I wont allow that.