I'm a little late to the Blissey rankings discussion, but i absolutely detest its current ranking. Is absolutely flies in the face of what a viablity rankings is trying to accomplish and it ignores the reasonable arguments already brought. One of the most important aspects of a debate is recognizing the difference between fact and opinion.
The main argument for placing Blissey outside of the normal rankings is because some people on this thread would never use Blissey. But if you aren't running Lucky Punch or Eviolite, there is no statistical advantage of using Chansey over Blissey. There is just some intangible "bluff factor" that basically implies your opponent is an idiot. If you send Imposter into a situation it clearly loses (like Mega Gengar) its obviously holding an item that allows it to win. An experience player will make the safe play and switch to a counter.
I think this is the main point of disagreement between us here. Lcass was saying that even though Blissey is directly outclassed, it is still, by definition, viable and it does shape the meta. I agree with this completely. Now, let me explain why Blissey is directly outclassed by Chansey. Blissey's 5 HP does not allow it to live anything that Chansey would die to (assuming no Eviolite). And, people
do assume that Chansey isn't going to be holding a Choice Scarf, Safety Goggles, a Toxic Orb, or a plate. Whereas if someone is battling someone good, and they see a Blissey, they know right away that there must be some reason why they're not running Chansey, and the only reason that might be is to hold a different item. I know that I play differently against Blissey vs Chansey because generally speaking they hold different items. There is literally no advantage to running Blissey (unless you have Leftovers, as that cannot be bluffed at all) over Chansey, and Chansey has the POTENTIAL benefit of bluffing Eviolite/Lucky Punch while in reality running something else.
Also, responding to your Mega Gengar example, if I have a Gengar-Mega that got a Smash up and I am currently sweeping, I would not be surprised if my opponent brought in Chansey. If they have no other way of dealing with Gengar, then they will lose eventually, and in order for them to lose they would have to bring in every one of their Pokemon. Are you really telling me that if you were sweeping your opponent and they brought in their Imposter, you would play it safe and switch out? (note: I don't think this argument is very clear, so please tell me if you don't understand it and I will attempt to clarify. I'm just having trouble articulating what I mean well.)
Not to mention if Blissey deserves a "Blissey Rank" then Rayquaza probably deserves one too. At least in the definition of "Blissey rank" right now, you can throw anything that is outclassed but still "runnable." Rayquaza is "runnable" because while it as not as powerful as it's Mega form, it still 2hkos all the same things on a basic fake speed set.
The difference between Mega Ray/Ray and Chansey/Blissey is that Blissey is VERY metagame defining, just like Chansey. Rayquaza is not. There's a reason that before ORAS, no one ran Aerilate Ray. There is a much bigger difference between Mega Ray and Ray than there is between Chansey and Blissey.
So if Blissey is really so outclassed then it should never be run over Chansey, don't fucking rank it all. If it has some niche uses, rank it in D or C.
As I said above, I agree with Lcass that Blissey, strictly speaking, is viable in the tier. It is almost as meta-defining as Chansey, so D or C seems too low. Blissey, along with most Imposters, is very good in the tier, but I was arguing that it is directly outclassed so it does not deserve S or A. Thus, I put it in a new rank to explain that it is very good but directly outclassed.
Just don't make up some arbitrary new rank then say it can't be discussed lol.
Please show me where I (or any council member) said that you could no longer discuss Blissey. I just removed it from the "current discussions" list because I had made the change and no one had responded to the thread for a couple days about Blissey.
Second some nominations:
Darm-Zen C+-- Unranked
As far as i can tell, the only niche Darm-Zen has is nostalgia, it used to be a great unaware pivot/wall mon. That was back in Gen 5/ early Gen 6. In ORAS its absolutely terrible and unusable as far as i am concerned. It can't handle any of the common Contrary sets or Protean set up sets. Mega Rayquaza, and Latios both can 2hko with Draco Meteor. Spooky Plate Dance Protean beats its for obvious reasons. It can stop Mega Mewtwo contrary sets, but imo its not worth running an Unaware that can only stop a limited number of common set up sets. Its also worth mentioning Unaware's viability is at an all time low in ORAS. I don't really expect the council to agree with me, but at least get it out of C+ rank and into D rank.
Well I can't think of any viable uses for Darm-Z anymore, so I agree with you. I'll let others discuss it a bit before I make the change though.
Regirock B +---> C+
Its a popular myth that Regirock is a decent -ate counter. The truth is, its just a Mega Ray counter. Its less vunerable to Mega Ray's coverage then Registeel is, making it a better option for just walling Ray, but it can't even come close to walling Diancie.
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Regirock: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
No boosting item or nature, and its a 2hko. So what else does the Rock wall besides Mega Ray? Its an unreliable counter to Mega Tyranitar, because while Tyranitar can't 2hko on switch, Shift Gear sets can boost, burn with Sacred Fire, and then beat down with Diamond Storm while tanking Drain Punches. Its a risky play for the Ttar player, and it probably leaves Ttar at low HP, but it can win. The only other things it walls on this VR are other birds. Plus its really fucking passive I agree it can be good, but it really only has a niche, which is walling flying types and nothing else.
I agree that Regirock is not an -ate wall in general, but it is a fairly decent Mega Ray wall, and considering that is the #1 by usage Pokemon and a very strong revenge killer and sweeper, I think that C+ is too low. I think it deserves B or B- or so because it doesn't beat every Mega Ray (Low Kick on the switch, Sacred Fire?) but it beats a large number of them.
Mega Tyranitar
B ---> A
Ttar is a fucking boss in the current meta. It's Shift Gear sets have a grand total of zero switch ins in the A and above Rank. Its easily capable of sweeping even high level teams. It is imposter proof. It's defensive sets can wall Mega Rayquaza. I could write more but i'm getting tired cause its late.
I agree with this. I personally think that any setup sweepers that are Imposter resistant and beat Mega Ray are very good in the tier, as those are the main answers to setup sweepers.
LightningLord2 while that set is definitely more effective on Bliss rather than Chans, it's also not very effective in general. Along with the Final Gambit set, this is not good enough to justify an increase in rank or anything.
General note, I no longer think Shedinja should drop. I've read arguments on both sides and I think it's still a very very good Pokemon in the meta, considering it often sweeps when your opponent runs out of Ghosts and Helmets and can pivot very easily. Defog is basically on every team, and thus does not require much support.
I would honestly add a "wildcard" tier of sort for the things like Blissey on the tiering;
"Mon's that can be potentially good or even excellent in the metagame but share traits such as ability or moves with other already powerful tiered pokemons in the balanced hackmons metagame. Pokemon in this tier are effective but also debatable due of their bretheren in other tier of viability that can do the same job, yet, cannot be identical in all sides due of minimal changes such as item, stat or other factors which make the arguments on whenver the said mon is outclassed or not extremely volativem thus making the use of the mons in this tier up to user preference"
I really like this idea, and I might change Blissey rank to this. I just want to see what other people have to say about it.
Xerneas to B+ rank
I started running SubQD to counter my own Dialga, and I found it was a very underrated threat that can tear appart a lot of teams. Substitute is nice allowing not only to take Dialga's Doom Desire comfortably, but also priority from -ates for example. This way Xerneas can tank Mega Ray's powerful priority with ease while outspeeding at +1 and OHKOing it with Moonblast. This is the exact set:
Xerneas @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Substitute
- Earth Power
- Quiver Dance
Magnet Pull is there to trap an Impostered Dialga, because otherwise I think there are better abilities out there (Poison Heal comes to mind). Moonblast is actually very powerful after a boost, breaking even Giratina iirc. Earth Power was added to hit Dialga super-effectively but it is valuable coverage as well.
It's surprising power, boosted Speed and Substitute to take priority attacks, as well as being unprepared for, makes it very dangerous if it gets going. Note that the EVs spread still has to be optimized, I'm looking for important Speed benchmarks to outspeed while making 101HP Subs (not that that's really important in BH but w/e).
Xerneas should be paired with something like Mega Gengar to remove Shedinja before attempting to sweep (the Magnet Pull variant in particular finds it very easy to set up on Impostered Dialga).
I'm really not sure about this. This set in particular is very niche (it is mainly for trapping and KOing Imposters that transformed into one particular Pokemon), and while it does a terrific job of that, it struggles to find setup opportunities otherwise. Its Poison Heal set is better for general use, but that one has issues of revenge killing opportunities as it's not as bulky as other effective PH users.
Sorry for the huge wall of text.