BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[E4 Flint]

After deliberation, Stakeout will be the next thing I'll be opening for suspect. In addition, I have decided that it is worth considering it for quickban, since I have not seen much convincing arguments for it to stay. Most likely I will be opening a Suspect Poll for all to vote on either qb'ing it, or suspecting it.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

I tested Stakeout today and i mostly lost my battles.

A switch must be earned, as it gives you a free opportunity to;
set up, put hazards down, spread status, recover from damage , ...

If your opponent has a gimmick set that counters yours and stays in,
you double lose.


Here a little overview;
- Stakeout is useless 1on1
- You relay on your opponents actions
- lots of alternatives; -ate, Weather, Terrain, Touch Claws
- small comeback potential
- mostly an overkilling

Stakeout works best on Non STAB Super Effective damaging moves,
and these moves are prediction based themselves.


I see the trapping logic again;
If the opponent has Stakeout and my otherwise perfect switch in gets KOed,
im basically trapped.

 

[The Official Glyx]

Hi, I usually don't ever post on BH threads, and I'm aware Stakeout is being discussed right now, but I'd like to make a suggestion for banning Primal Groudon, and to a lesser extent, Primal Kyogre. I sincerely believe that these two mons should either come immediately after or take precedence over the Stakeout discussion.

reasoning

• Inherent/Natural Qualities:
  • A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.

It is pretty much universally known that Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre can run almost any set and still perform well, simply because of the mons themselves. Is there any more I could/should need to add here?

• • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards

Primal Groudon gets STAB on the strongest good attack in the game with one of the highest Atk stats in the game, as well as dozens of other options, while only being weak to ground and a highly uncommon coverage type in water. Primal Kyogre also has the benefit of having STAB on water, making it a beneficial mon for burning via Steam Eruption or Scald, as well as just plain hitting hard, while also having incredibly high special bulk combined with being weak to just grass and electric.

• Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
  • Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive

Both primals fit perfectly into this category, having high stats all around to make them useful for taking and giving obscenely powerful attacks.

• • It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more

This is the only category that I really can't see Groudon fitting into as well, since there isn't really a "main" set for it, to my knowledge. Though, it's still so viable that it can really be considered a master of all trades, even meme or niche sets being able to perform well overall simply because of how broken Groudon is. Kyogre, on the other hand, does have main sets, varying between PH, Regenvest, and Fur Coat, though still being able to run near anything else it wants with stats like those.

• Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:
  • One of (or both):
    • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon

It's not exactly difficult to win per se, but it is definitely made much easier to do so with them.

• • or Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier

Groudon literally has no safe switchins until you're certain of what it does, and Kyogre is capable of sweeping all the same. They were both at least manageable when they had to choose between being offensive or defensive, but now that they can be both, they're just too much!

• • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other

They both have the options of either nuking switchins or setting up to mow down teams with near any set, the only play that defense has against Groudon, other than Prankster Destiny Bond, being to switch in Regenvest Tina and immediately switching out to Fur Coat Tina in case it turns out to be Choice Band V-Death. Kyogre doesn't quite have that much of an ability to take down switchins, but the ability to burn opponents while still hitting them with powerful STABs at least tries to make up for it.

In conclusion: The Primals warp the meta around them, forcing teams to either have to run them in order to be good, or have highly specific or risky structuring in order to not autolose to them, which is why I believe they should be restricted to being allowed only with their corresponding orbs like they were last gen.

Also Stakeout is kind of a dingus that shouldn't really be allowed either-

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Hi, I usually don't ever post on BH threads, and I'm aware Stakeout is being discussed right now, but I'd like to make a suggestion for banning Primal Groudon, and to a lesser extent, Primal Kyogre. I sincerely believe that these two mons should either come immediately after or take precedence over the Stakeout discussion.

reasoning

• Inherent/Natural Qualities:
  • A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.

It is pretty much universally known that Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre can run almost any set and still perform well, simply because of the mons themselves. Is there any more I could/should need to add here?

• • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards

Primal Groudon gets STAB on the strongest good attack in the game with one of the highest Atk stats in the game, as well as dozens of other options, while only being weak to ground and a highly uncommon coverage type in water. Primal Kyogre also has the benefit of having STAB on water, making it a beneficial mon for burning via Steam Eruption or Scald, as well as just plain hitting hard, while also having incredibly high special bulk combined with being weak to just grass and electric.

• Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
  • Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive

Both primals fit perfectly into this category, having high stats all around to make them useful for taking and giving obscenely powerful attacks.

• • It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more

This is the only category that I really can't see Groudon fitting into as well, since there isn't really a "main" set for it, to my knowledge. Though, it's still so viable that it can really be considered a master of all trades, even meme or niche sets being able to perform well overall simply because of how broken Groudon is. Kyogre, on the other hand, does have main sets, varying between PH, Regenvest, and Fur Coat, though still being able to run near anything else it wants with stats like those.

• Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:
  • One of (or both):
    • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon

It's not exactly difficult to win per se, but it is definitely made much easier to do so with them.

• • or Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier

Groudon literally has no safe switchins until you're certain of what it does, and Kyogre is capable of sweeping all the same. They were both at least manageable when they had to choose between being offensive or defensive, but now that they can be both, they're just too much!

• • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other

They both have the options of either nuking switchins or setting up to mow down teams with near any set, the only play that defense has against Groudon, other than Prankster Destiny Bond, being to switch in Regenvest Tina and immediately switching out to Fur Coat Tina in case it turns out to be Choice Band V-Death. Kyogre doesn't quite have that much of an ability to take down switchins, but the ability to burn opponents while still hitting them with powerful STABs at least tries to make up for it.

In conclusion: The Primals warp the meta around them, forcing teams to either have to run them in order to be good, or have highly specific or risky structuring in order to not autolose to them, which is why I believe they should be restricted to being allowed only with their corresponding orbs like they were last gen.

Also Stakeout is kind of a dingus that shouldn't really be allowed either-

Thank you for voicing your opinion.

The issues with Primal Groudon has already been discussed (paused due to Stakeout poll), and I posted my stance as well. But one thing I wanted to note to you was I do not believe Primal Kyogre deserves a suspect, and below is the reason.

S -> A+
It is the same Primal, but after the ban of Water Bubble and EV limit removal, it is very reliant on boosts have enough raw power to sweep. Poison Heal sets are not that powerful until it has accumulated enough boosts with Quiver Dance, and it is immediately shut down by Core Enforcer and Spectral Thief. Unlike Primal Groudon, this whale does not have devastatingly offensive presence to force out switches, and single Water-type is not the best typing for offense. I believe 95+% of the variants of Primal Kyogre I see in my regular ladder has Poison Heal or Fur Coat. Poison Heal, as I mentioned, is reliant on stat boosts which this metagame with Core Enforcer and Spectral Thief spam makes it hard, and Fur Coat sets are somewhat passive outsides using Steam Eruption which has only 8 pp, and this shortens Pogre's overall longevity during the match which is not appreciated as a 'mon when it is used as a defensive wall. But Scarf set is somewhat effective and a surprise factor, and since it is not crappy as Greninja-Ash Poison Heal should is a threat regardless of aforementioned checking moves, so I would say this whale stays some high place in vr but not in S, it doesn't define the metagame anymore.

Correct me if I am wrong, but 99+% of people I've seen said Primal Kyogre was banned in ORAS BH meta due to the difficulty of stopping Poison Heal sets; now we have 2 moves that is slapped on nearly every support 'mons to stop it. And keep in mind, single Water-typing isn't the best offense typing, and Kyogre does not have a spammable 180 BP STAB move like Primal Groudon does: V-create.

 

[MAMP]

Hi, I usually don't ever post on BH threads, and I'm aware Stakeout is being discussed right now, but I'd like to make a suggestion for banning Primal Groudon, and to a lesser extent, Primal Kyogre. I sincerely believe that these two mons should either come immediately after or take precedence over the Stakeout discussion.

reasoning

• Inherent/Natural Qualities:
  • A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.

It is pretty much universally known that Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre can run almost any set and still perform well, simply because of the mons themselves. Is there any more I could/should need to add here?

• • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards

Primal Groudon gets STAB on the strongest good attack in the game with one of the highest Atk stats in the game, as well as dozens of other options, while only being weak to ground and a highly uncommon coverage type in water. Primal Kyogre also has the benefit of having STAB on water, making it a beneficial mon for burning via Steam Eruption or Scald, as well as just plain hitting hard, while also having incredibly high special bulk combined with being weak to just grass and electric.

• Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
  • Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive

Both primals fit perfectly into this category, having high stats all around to make them useful for taking and giving obscenely powerful attacks.

• • It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more

This is the only category that I really can't see Groudon fitting into as well, since there isn't really a "main" set for it, to my knowledge. Though, it's still so viable that it can really be considered a master of all trades, even meme or niche sets being able to perform well overall simply because of how broken Groudon is. Kyogre, on the other hand, does have main sets, varying between PH, Regenvest, and Fur Coat, though still being able to run near anything else it wants with stats like those.

• Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:
  • One of (or both):
    • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon

It's not exactly difficult to win per se, but it is definitely made much easier to do so with them.

• • or Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier

Groudon literally has no safe switchins until you're certain of what it does, and Kyogre is capable of sweeping all the same. They were both at least manageable when they had to choose between being offensive or defensive, but now that they can be both, they're just too much!

• • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other

They both have the options of either nuking switchins or setting up to mow down teams with near any set, the only play that defense has against Groudon, other than Prankster Destiny Bond, being to switch in Regenvest Tina and immediately switching out to Fur Coat Tina in case it turns out to be Choice Band V-Death. Kyogre doesn't quite have that much of an ability to take down switchins, but the ability to burn opponents while still hitting them with powerful STABs at least tries to make up for it.

In conclusion: The Primals warp the meta around them, forcing teams to either have to run them in order to be good, or have highly specific or risky structuring in order to not autolose to them, which is why I believe they should be restricted to being allowed only with their corresponding orbs like they were last gen.

Also Stakeout is kind of a dingus that shouldn't really be allowed either-

I agree completely regarding PDon, but I don't think that POgre is on quite the same level. The PH set, which was the main reason it was banned last gen, is far weaker with the introduction of Core Enforcer and Spectral Thief, which allow defensive mons to beat it without resorting to niche nonsense like Entrainment, and the burn nerf which makes it a lot harder for POgre to wear down its switchins. POgre's defensive sets are very good but hardly broken. POgre can run a lot of other powerful offensive sets, which are largely unexplored I think -- I've personally had a lot of success with Stakeout, Swift Swim, and Sheer Force -- but none of these have ever really felt broken to me (except Stakeout, but I don't think that's POgre's fault).

POgre is probably worth suspecting at some point in the future, but I think we have a lot more pressing matters to deal with before we can get around to that -- PDon, Psychic Surge/prio blockers, Shell Smash, Mega Ray, etc.

 

[Funbot28]

Pogre is in a much worse spot in SM then it was in ORAS. The introduction to both Core Enforcer and Spectral Thief hinder every PH setup set and often needs it to rely on Lovely Kiss RNG in order to break through defensive checks carrying the aforementioned moves. The relevance of other more threatening specially attacking threats like Mega Mewtwo Y and even Primal Groudon to an extent also makes it difficult to justify Primal Ogre for a teamslot for its offensive utility alone.

I agree with a Primal Groudon suspect, but it was ultimately decided that Stakeout would be looked at first, so I suggest we should just keep discussion on that for the time being.

 

[motherlove]

Heyo I also want to mention that fat setup in general is actually far worse in full EV, shit like Gyara, Ogre, Gigas or Ttar had this nifty thing where they could actually run bulk and beat other offensive mons but now they don't really have that much of an edge over HO mons cause everything can afford bulk now. Biggest problem is also the fact that you don't kill shit, now Kyogre is different cause it can run spout which is imo the best set rn but other than that you're checked by offensive mon if you don't run sleep which is a huge problem.
So yeah on top of that core thingy fat setup has also become much easier to check in full ev, non spout kyogre is hard check but mmy which takes mediocre damage and OHKOs back and even shit like norm gengar can afford a hit.

Regenvest ogre is the truth tho that shit never dies.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-616096202
This is a perfect example why sleep has to go immediately: I lost to a Shell Smash Arceus, only because of sleep RNG. He was down two mons, so it looked like an easy win for me - but thanks to Lovely Kiss luck, Arceus managed to kill Prankster Regi without getting destiny-bonded or hazed - Regi's Safety Goggles were completely useless. As this replay demonstrates very well, sleep completely negates skill, only the RNG decides who wins and who loses.
Yes, Arceus used Shell Smash, but here the real problem was sleep and not Shell Smash, as without sleep, I could've easily handled it with Registeel - and Arceus ould have used Tail Glow instead of Smash, with the same RNG-dependand outcome.
Magic Bounce Audino was no switchin either, as it gets cleanly 2HKOed by Boomburst, and even if I predict right and switch it into a Lovely Kiss, the outcome would still be RNG-dependand, as the bounced Lovely Kiss has a chance to miss and if it doesn't miss, Arceus might wake up before I can haze/thief its boosts.

 

[SuperSkylake]

Here is a set that people seem to run that just kills the entire meta, and this is why Shell Smash needs to be banned. There is very limited counterplay to this thing. The set is:

Mewtwo-mega-x @ Focus Sash / Safety Goggles
Ability: Dazzling / Psychic Surge / Illusion
EVS: everything
Whatever nature you want as long as it doesn't lower your offensive stats
- Shell Smash
- Close Combat / Low Kick
- Moongeist beam / Sunsteel Strike
- Stored Power

You need both Close Combat and Stored power as STAB moves. Stored power becomes a 140 BP STAB move coming off a very respectable 154 Special Attack after Shell Smash, and if you have Psychic Surge support, it becomes an efective 260 BP STAB move instead. That hits any neutral mon exceedingly hard. For resists, you have Close Combat, which also blasts through Steel types, so that means, at best you sac something, then bring in your Steel type, and Destiny Bond the Mewtwo, losing two mons for the price of just one. Finally Moongeist Beam/sunsteel takes care of Unaware Pokemon. To hit unaware Fairy types use Sunsteel, and to hit Shedinja use Moongeist beam.

What can counter this thing?
Nothing. You only have checks, which require a sac, and the mewtwo user can easily play around those. Here are some calculations:
Let's start with some common bulky walls:
+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 394-465 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solgaleo: 384-452 (80.3 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Registeel: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aegislash-Shield: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Yes, AV Aegislash can live a stored power followed by a Moongeist beam, but it can't take two, so with good rediction it will die. And AV Aegislash is such an uncommon set compared to the prankstervariant, you're wasting Aegislash's value as a Prankster user this way.)

Kyogre-p can be 2hKOED no matter what set it's carrying or what STAB move Mewtwo decides to use. In the worst case situations, you have
+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO It is ohkoed by close combat though)

+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 692-816 (98.2 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sableye-Mega: 197-232 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Sableye-Mega: 177-209 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Deoxys-Defense: 170-202 (55.9 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's just a sample of the destructive power this thing has. Note that the stored power calculations don't have psychic surge support, allowing Mewtwo to not reveal its ability. With Psychic surge support such as from a MMY partner, you don't have to bother predicting because you can just spam your Stored Power. Also remember that it outspeeds EVERYTHING that hasn't set up, even the entire Scarf metagame. So really you would need something like Focus Sash + Shell Smash MMY to offensively check it, but you're still sacrificing a mon to do so. If you decide to run Illusion instead, you can often take out an extra mon, such as a Steel-type, in a single hit, easily paving the way for an -ate user, and then bringing it in late game to finish off with a Shell Smash sweep. However, that leaves you vulnerable to priority moves, such as Pixelate or Aerilate Extreme Speed, which does OHKO you.
Also, this thing has a good chance to KO its own imposter with Moongeist Beam if it carries a negative spd nature, 0 IVS and 0 evs in SpD, which really isn't much of a tradeoff given the fact that you can't really take hits afte a smash anyway (+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Stored Power (140 BP) vs. -1 252 HP / 0- SpD Eviolite Mewtwo-Mega-X: 669-787 (95 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO).
But really, if the best counter you can come up with is a failed prediction against Assault Vest Aegislash, that is really saying something, and if the best check is to lose two mons just to take it down either through a sac into destiny bond or a sac into Focus Sash, there is something wrong here.

We can argue that a few different things make this set broken. The most obvious problem is Shel Smash, which gives Stored power such high BP, DQM which gives it immunity to being revenged by priority moves, or psychic Surge which protects it from priority as well as powering up the stored power. I argue that Shell Smash is the biggest problem with it though. Any ofensive mon can run it, and I have already mentioned this before. But this is just ridiculous. THERE ARE NO COUNTERS TO THIS SET.

Finally, did I mention, this is a SINGLE mon running this? That gives you five extra teamslots that you can do whatever you want with. It doesn't really require any support. That is just wild to me. Please, do something!

TLDR: ban SHELL SMASH

Edits and additions:
Thanks to the people on Discord, there are more nuanced parts of the argument to discuss. For one thing, there is a wall that can take hits from this set pretty easily, and that is Unaware Zygarde-C, which Moongeist and Sunsteel both fail to 2hKO. That's at least something good, and fairly significant since unaware Zygarde-C is a very valid set to run.

Another argument they are bringing up is the one about imposterproofing, which you can do with the afformentioned Unaware Zygarde-C. For more offensive teams, you can run Prankster Aegislash if you opt to run Sunsteel Strike over Moongeist Beam on your MMX, which is probably the better move since it allows you to blast through unaware Fairies.
Finally, and the biggest counterargument, is that they argue that it is difficult to get Mewtwo set up in the first place. I'm inclined to disagree with this though, since you cannot passively click some moves if it invites a free MMX switchin, and then the arms race(?) of underspeeding threats to get slow u-turns for your defensive mons continues. U-turning against MMX does break the sash, allowing your Imposter to probably beat it one on one even if you minimize the Special defense Evs and Ivs, which is also a little better, but again, we are talking in a perfect ideal scenario where you haven't taken any chip damage on any of the relevant mons, which is not at all true in a real game. If your imposter takes even 13% and hasn't recovered that damage off, it has to win the speed tie, andsince IMposter works as a sort of team glue, it's very likely that it will hvae taken some prior damage.

 

[willdbeast]

Here is a set that people seem to run that just kills the entire meta, and this is why Shell Smash needs to be banned. There is very limited counterplay to this thing. The set is:

Mewtwo-mega-x @ Focus Sash / Safety Goggles
Ability: Dazzling / Psychic Surge / Illusion
EVS: everything
Whatever nature you want as long as it doesn't lower your offensive stats
- Shell Smash
- Close Combat / Low Kick
- Moongeist beam / Sunsteel Strike
- Stored Power

You need both Close Combat and Stored power as STAB moves. Stored power becomes a 140 BP STAB move coming off a very respectable 154 Special Attack after Shell Smash, and if you have Psychic Surge support, it becomes an efective 260 BP STAB move instead. That hits any neutral mon exceedingly hard. For resists, you have Close Combat, which also blasts through Steel types, so that means, at best you sac something, then bring in your Steel type, and Destiny Bond the Mewtwo, losing two mons for the price of just one. Finally Moongeist Beam/sunsteel takes care of Unaware Pokemon. To hit unaware Fairy types use Sunsteel, and to hit Shedinja use Moongeist beam.

What can counter this thing?
Nothing. You only have checks, which require a sac, and the mewtwo user can easily play around those. Here are some calculations:
Let's start with some common bulky walls:
+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 394-465 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solgaleo: 384-452 (80.3 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Registeel: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aegislash-Shield: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Yes, AV Aegislash can live a stored power followed by a Moongeist beam, but it can't take two, so with good rediction it will die. And AV Aegislash is such an uncommon set compared to the prankstervariant, you're wasting Aegislash's value as a Prankster user this way.)

Kyogre-p can be 2hKOED no matter what set it's carrying or what STAB move Mewtwo decides to use. In the worst case situations, you have
+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO It is ohkoed by close combat though)

+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 692-816 (98.2 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sableye-Mega: 197-232 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Sableye-Mega: 177-209 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Deoxys-Defense: 170-202 (55.9 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's just a sample of the destructive power this thing has. Note that the stored power calculations don't have psychic surge support, allowing Mewtwo to not reveal its ability. With Psychic surge support such as from a MMY partner, you don't have to bother predicting because you can just spam your Stored Power. Also remember that it outspeeds EVERYTHING that hasn't set up, even the entire Scarf metagame. So really you would need something like Focus Sash + Shell Smash MMY to offensively check it, but you're still sacrificing a mon to do so. If you decide to run Illusion instead, you can often take out an extra mon, such as a Steel-type, in a single hit, easily paving the way for an -ate user, and then bringing it in late game to finish off with a Shell Smash sweep. However, that leaves you vulnerable to priority moves, such as Pixelate or Aerilate Extreme Speed, which does OHKO you.
Also, this thing has a good chance to KO its own imposter with Moongeist Beam if it carries a negative spd nature, 0 IVS and 0 evs in SpD, which really isn't much of a tradeoff given the fact that you can't really take hits afte a smash anyway (+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Stored Power (140 BP) vs. -1 252 HP / 0- SpD Eviolite Mewtwo-Mega-X: 669-787 (95 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO).
But really, if the best counter you can come up with is a failed prediction against Assault Vest Aegislash, that is really saying something, and if the best check is to lose two mons just to take it down either through a sac into destiny bond or a sac into Focus Sash, there is something wrong here.

We can argue that a few different things make this set broken. The most obvious problem is Shel Smash, which gives Stored power such high BP, DQM which gives it immunity to being revenged by priority moves, or psychic Surge which protects it from priority as well as powering up the stored power. I argue that Shell Smash is the biggest problem with it though. Any ofensive mon can run it, and I have already mentioned this before. But this is just ridiculous. THERE ARE NO COUNTERS TO THIS SET.

Finally, did I mention, this is a SINGLE mon running this? That gives you five extra teamslots that you can do whatever you want with. It doesn't really require any support. That is just wild to me. Please, do something!

TLDR: ban SHELL SMASH

Edits and additions:
Thanks to the people on Discord, there are more nuanced parts of the argument to discuss. For one thing, there is a wall that can take hits from this set pretty easily, and that is Unaware Zygarde-C, which Moongeist and Sunsteel both fail to 2hKO. That's at least something good, and fairly significant since unaware Zygarde-C is a very valid set to run.

Another argument they are bringing up is the one about imposterproofing, which you can do with the afformentioned Unaware Zygarde-C. For more offensive teams, you can run Prankster Aegislash if you opt to run Sunsteel Strike over Moongeist Beam on your MMX, which is probably the better move since it allows you to blast through unaware Fairies.
Finally, and the biggest counterargument, is that they argue that it is difficult to get Mewtwo set up in the first place. I'm inclined to disagree with this though, since you cannot passively click some moves if it invites a free MMX switchin, and then the arms race(?) of underspeeding threats to get slow u-turns for your defensive mons continues. U-turning against MMX does break the sash, allowing your Imposter to probably beat it one on one even if you minimize the Special defense Evs and Ivs, which is also a little better, but again, we are talking in a perfect ideal scenario where you haven't taken any chip damage on any of the relevant mons, which is not at all true in a real game. If your imposter takes even 13% and hasn't recovered that damage off, it has to win the speed tie, andsince IMposter works as a sort of team glue, it's very likely that it will hvae taken some prior damage.

"140 BP STAB move ... and if you have Psychic Surge support, it becomes an efective 260 BP STAB" I don't understand this, maybe you mistyped but I'm pretty sure terrain is a 1.5× multiplier giving 210 bp equivalent.

As for there being no counters, every single one of your calcs assumes you get up a shell smash while the opponent just sits there enjoying the view, then decide to do something. You don't need to be able to switch into something at +2 to be a counter. The turn you switch in they're unboosted so they either shell smash or hit you with a +0 attack, this means basically anything that's not 0HKOed at +2 and carried spectral thief is a counter.
For example: Regenvest Giratina is a counter even with terrain up. It switches in, either takes 27.3% MAX from moongeist or 0% as you smash. If you moongeist it proceeds to 2HKO you with spectral thief (or moongeist I suppose). If you shell smash it then takes 84.7% max IN TERRAIN and OHKOs you with spectral thief, or if you're sash kills you the next turn. (Out of terrain any Tina works and Unaware is even better but I thought that was kinda niche.) [Edit: those calcs assumes neutral natures but non are within 10% of anything and both could run the equivalent +nature]
That's the first example that came into my head but most pranksters not weak to CC work too (Cresselia I suppose) since that can just switch in and haze/recover until they're safe at full health again.

You can't assume that it gets a shell smash for free AND attacks you at +2 as you switch, it can only attack or boost, not both. I can't imagine a single situation where they'd decide to switch to something that loses to it for no reason apart from if they go to imposter as you smash.

It's still a dangerous set but it does have a few counters and after all very few things in BH have multiple safe counters.

Edit: they can run adaptability or something which does reduce the list of counters to unawares and pranksters.

Also I was thinking about this some more and there are a few counters but a ton of checks, Unaware Pogre can switch into shell smash and win (but struggles if it takes a Close Combat on the switch), as well as Unaware AV and prankster Zygarde can easily switch in. There's plenty more random unaware, AV and Prankster mons that are soft counters/checks but most others are niche at best.

And you know what? There's one extremely common offensive counter you didn't mention: surge mmy! It can switch into anything that set uses and wins (assuming psycho boost hits and no crits). And in fact if they are kind enough to set up Psychic Terrain for you, your mmy doesn't even need surge or specs most of the time, so even AV contrary mmy can switch in and win, all you need is psycho boost (or you can para them with gimmicky no guard sets I guess and kill the turn after assuming they don't go for another smash... But I digress).

+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 344-406 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y in Psychic Terrain: 271-319 (65.1 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 283-333 (68 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. -1 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X in Psychic Terrain: 552-649 (132.6 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Admittedly if they're +spatk you need a +spdef mmy or AV or something or you risk a high roll.

+2 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 378-446 (90.8 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

And these are things that can switch in, the list of things that won if they're on the field to start with is much longer.

 

[jasprose]

This is pretty different from the stuff that you've been recently discussing, but I think it might be worth considering taking a look at a sleep clause, or maybe even just taking a look at Lovely Kiss.
The move arguably fits with taking some part of skill out of the player's hand since, yes it does only have a 75% chance to hit, if it does hit, it puts the opponent to sleep for up to three turns based almost entirely on luck. As far as counterplay goes to lovely kiss, it's more limited than spore, since you can't run goggles to block it or be part grass. Sure there's magic bounce but that can just be avoided with mold breaker, which makes some of your best options to shut it down completely be either electric surge, poison heal, or comatose, and of the three, poison heal is probably the most viable option, with the other two not seeing too much use ever. Sure, lovely kiss might not be too common yet, but I'm pretty sure been rising a bit in popularity and in case it keeps rising, it'd probably be a good idea to at least consider making it less of an issue before it becomes it becomes too problematic. I might not know whether the best way to handle this would be a sleep clause or maybe just a ban on lovely kiss, but I do think that something should be done about it at some point.
edit: Small note, but just so that it's clear that I think that sleep/lovely kiss fits into one of the categories for the banning policy, it'd probably fit under the "moves emphasis to luck" part best.

 

[E4 Flint]

Sorry for the delay, I wanted to make the decision after the last OMPL round to not affect ongoing matches, and after due deliberation (as described below)

Verdict: I have made the decision to quickban Stakeout.

Reasoning:

• First and foremost, the quickban won the majority, though it was slim
• Since the majority was not 60% as has been standard for all of my decisions, I took some other factors into account:
  • There was primarily little to no discussion on why Stakeout could potentially come out of a suspect without being banned, whether in the Suspect thread or (especially) in the poll thread. The main reasoning behind suspect from most parties that I personally reached out and discussed with, was that we should not quickban something now as a matter of principle. This is something I respect and understand (since a lot of my decisions are based on principle and making precedents) but do not agree with as I will go into a deeper discussion about in a later post
    • i.e. most of the people who voted for Suspect that I discussed with were of the opinion that it would become banned/ did not really have justification on why it would stay unbanned
  • While I cannot confirm for sure, I have noticed that there was an influx of voters option who did not seem to play BH in even a casual setting which played into the previous point. While this is true for both options, it is more apparent for the Suspect option. This is something that will be addressed for any future polls

As I mentioned in the poll OP, I reserve the right to make an informed decision depending on such circumstances and context of the poll in general, and not just based on the actual vote decision itself.

This change will take place on the ladder and challenge formats of BH on the main server immediately.

History:

• Link to Discussion
• Link to Poll

Tagging The Immortal​

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

"140 BP STAB move ... and if you have Psychic Surge support, it becomes an efective 260 BP STAB" I don't understand this, maybe you mistyped but I'm pretty sure terrain is a 1.5× multiplier giving 210 bp equivalent.

As for there being no counters, every single one of your calcs assumes you get up a shell smash while the opponent just sits there enjoying the view, then decide to do something. You don't need to be able to switch into something at +2 to be a counter. The turn you switch in they're unboosted so they either shell smash or hit you with a +0 attack, this means basically anything that's not 0HKOed at +2 and carried spectral thief is a counter.
For example: Regenvest Giratina is a counter even with terrain up. It switches in, either takes 27.3% MAX from moongeist or 0% as you smash. If you moongeist it proceeds to 2HKO you with spectral thief (or moongeist I suppose). If you shell smash it then takes 84.7% max IN TERRAIN and OHKOs you with spectral thief, or if you're sash kills you the next turn. (Out of terrain any Tina works and Unaware is even better but I thought that was kinda niche.) [Edit: those calcs assumes neutral natures but non are within 10% of anything and both could run the equivalent +nature]
That's the first example that came into my head but most pranksters not weak to CC work too (Cresselia I suppose) since that can just switch in and haze/recover until they're safe at full health again.

You can't assume that it gets a shell smash for free AND attacks you at +2 as you switch, it can only attack or boost, not both. I can't imagine a single situation where they'd decide to switch to something that loses to it for no reason apart from if they go to imposter as you smash.

It's still a dangerous set but it does have a few counters and after all very few things in BH have multiple safe counters.

Edit: they can run adaptability or something which does reduce the list of counters to unawares and pranksters.

Also I was thinking about this some more and there are a few counters but a ton of checks, Unaware Pogre can switch into shell smash and win (but struggles if it takes a Close Combat on the switch), as well as Unaware AV and prankster Zygarde can easily switch in. There's plenty more random unaware, AV and Prankster mons that are soft counters/checks but most others are niche at best.

And you know what? There's one extremely common offensive counter you didn't mention: surge mmy! It can switch into anything that set uses and wins (assuming psycho boost hits and no crits). And in fact if they are kind enough to set up Psychic Terrain for you, your mmy doesn't even need surge or specs most of the time, so even AV contrary mmy can switch in and win, all you need is psycho boost (or you can para them with gimmicky no guard sets I guess and kill the turn after assuming they don't go for another smash... But I digress).

+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 344-406 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y in Psychic Terrain: 271-319 (65.1 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 283-333 (68 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. -1 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X in Psychic Terrain: 552-649 (132.6 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Admittedly if they're +spatk you need a +spdef mmy or AV or something or you risk a high roll.

+2 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 378-446 (90.8 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

And these are things that can switch in, the list of things that won if they're on the field to start with is much longer.

Not to be a killjoy but every single one of those counters dies if it's simple and terrain is up and before anyone suggests it's impossible to achieve that I suggest u read what terrain extender is. Pranksters that are not regi don't really exist except maybe zygarde on HO which stays there for the very good reason that longevity is nonexistent if ur not a steel. You will find 0 pranksters run by high tier players that are both not steel and do not run dbond while many regi sets can forgo dbond. The very function of the mon is different, prank Dino's purpose is to die and regi is to stall. Because the purpose of non steel pranksters is to destiny bond it's pretty asinine to just ASSUME that they haven't done what they were built for: die.
HO runs a lot of smash and 1 prankster isn't enough. Dbond kills 1 mon not 5

Stakeout just got banned and in reality they are pretty damn similar. One is a move, one is a ability. Stakeout punishes switching with a +2 or +3 if faster move and requires prediction. Smash hits switchins at +2 or +3 if simple or if mon is 2x slower often with a free 140bp move BUT does not require a switch (sash) OR prediction. Smash can be checked by unaware somewhat ineptly as sleep, mold mons and simple +terrain mmx show.

Because you don't need predictions you can afford less coverage ame imo an ability makes is more valuable. I don't suppose anyone will give a damn about my opinion though because a guy who can't get in the ompl is a complete nonentity despite getting a 5+ 50-0s in the past 2 gens with stall, balanced and HO. Why would that idiot know anything?

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

This poll was a farce.
Such a close result calls for a serious suspect.

How to explain a pokekid Stakeout is as good as Wonder Guard ?

im an oldschool player and the A.I needed 15 years to learn switching.
And in BH they switch more than the game switches Professor and Rival.

I had a 300+ turn match just yesterday and its enough for a week.
Maybe some think; If the replay does not show my lose, i can say i won.


You can Simple Tail Glow to +6 SpA and sweep, why need Stakeout ?!
Just have a Fairy for the Core Enforcer.


On MMX, again;

MMX is neutral to Psychic so Psy Terrain is double edged.
If you are running Simple any Spectral Thief will murder you.
Even if set up Scarf Imposter exist and Evolite takes a 140 BP Psy Terrain Stored Power.
Prankster Tina, Solgaleo or M-Audino are viable aswell.

The fighting STAB is nice vs Regis, Arceus, Dialga and Gyarados.
MMX gains one stage Fairy + Flying + Psychic weakness for Bug and Rock resitance, bad trade.

I can see MMX being good at highest levels, otherwise stick with MMY spam.

 

[E4 Flint]

This poll was a farce.
Such a close result calls for a serious suspect.

I provided clear and concise reasoning on why I opted for a QB instead of a suspect in the post two prior to yours if you wish for more information, and of them, a key one was the reason for why this poll was even close to begin with. After that, I did go out and speak personally to some of the key voters for suspect to get their opinion, and I also took your post in the poll thread into account as well. One of the criticisms of my processes is having drawn out suspects for essentially pre-decided bans and polls are my way to help alleviate that and so far, I think I have made the correct decisions about when we ought to have a suspect (see trapping) vs when to do a qb, and I do have some plans for better suspect polls in the future. In the meantime, call me corrupt if you wish, but I still have the right to make the final decision.

 

[cityscapes]

Not to be a killjoy but every single one of those counters dies if it's simple and terrain is up and before anyone suggests it's impossible to achieve that I suggest u read what terrain extender is. Pranksters that are not regi don't really exist except maybe zygarde on HO which stays there for the very good reason that longevity is nonexistent if ur not a steel. You will find 0 pranksters run by high tier players that are both not steel and do not run dbond while many regi sets can forgo dbond. The very function of the mon is different, prank Dino's purpose is to die and regi is to stall. Because the purpose of non steel pranksters is to destiny bond it's pretty asinine to just ASSUME that they haven't done what they were built for: die.
HO runs a lot of smash and 1 prankster isn't enough. Dbond kills 1 mon not 5

Stakeout just got banned and in reality they are pretty damn similar. One is a move, one is a ability. Stakeout punishes switching with a +2 or +3 if faster move and requires prediction. Smash hits switchins at +2 or +3 if simple or if mon is 2x slower often with a free 140bp move BUT does not require a switch (sash) OR prediction. Smash can be checked by unaware somewhat ineptly as sleep, mold mons and simple +terrain mmx show.

Because you don't need predictions you can afford less coverage ame imo an ability makes is more valuable. I don't suppose anyone will give a damn about my opinion though because a guy who can't get in the ompl is a complete nonentity despite getting a 5+ 50-0s in the past 2 gens with stall, balanced and HO. Why would that idiot know anything?

let me go over viable prankster haze users that aren't used on hyper offense:

registeel: this is the "standard" haze user but i still maintain my claim that it's the most overrated pokemon in the game. it loses to drum pdon and contrary, and most setup sweepers carry coverage for it because they usually carry sunsteel/moongeist as well. steel/ground is good coverage, steel/fire is too, ghost/fighting as well so most setup is able to 2hko regi.

celesteela: personally i think this mon is so much better than regi as a prankster haze user, like if healthy it even checks specs mmy by coming in on psycho boost and recovering as mmy's power drops. [252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 273-322 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock] also its defensive typing is much better granting it the ability to avoid the 2hko from standard drummer pdon and enabling it to stall out terrain vs. mmx [252+ Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 204-240 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO] as well as pp stall it out of close combat if you get good rolls. you might say "but why would i want to stall out terrain?" but that's where not running destiny bond comes in. (please don't run destiny bond on a prankster celesteela) you can paralyze it with prankster glare or something if you're willing to sack celesteela or like just switch out on the cc. if they manage to shell smash on the switch then they deserve to get a free kill for that godly play lol

ho oh: man i might be biased because this thing is on my team but it's so good. the only common smasher/drummer that hits it super effectively is zekrom. you might say "but stealth rock!" but with all the role compression lots of teams are actually forgoing stealth rock in favor of core/u turn/spectral/recovery sets with defog mixed in. anyway ho oh stands out as a good contrary check as well due to its ability to take hits, like +0 mmy psycho boost does around 45%. it completely walls the given mmx set too

zygarde c: i used this a while ago and i mean it's not the most reliable thing in the world because drum pdon carries ice coverage but it handles most aps due to its incredible bulk. and man shell smash with stored power/ice coverage is no set

so there you go. three viable prankster hazers besides registeel and honestly i'd say that ho oh and zyg have at least as much longevity as regi even though they're not steel type. there's no need to run destiny bond on these things if you're running them on balance/stall which opens the door for other cool possibilities

concerning prankster haze on hyper offense: prankster haze on ho is a strange case, like the main goal is actually to prevent your team from being swept by imposter or opposing setup. these mons actually don't need recovery (although it can be useful) and they almost always run destiny bond for the momentum. they can use the other two slots for whatever ig

concerning mmx: man i didn't get into ompl either and i know the feeling but right now all i see is someone comparing aps mmx to stakeout. would you mind posting some replays concerning this topic? i think that would make your argument a lot clearer. thanks.

 

[willdbeast]

Not to be a killjoy but every single one of those counters dies if it's simple and terrain is up and before anyone suggests it's impossible to achieve that I suggest u read what terrain extender is. Pranksters that are not regi don't really exist except maybe zygarde on HO which stays there for the very good reason that longevity is nonexistent if ur not a steel. You will find 0 pranksters run by high tier players that are both not steel and do not run dbond while many regi sets can forgo dbond. The very function of the mon is different, prank Dino's purpose is to die and regi is to stall. Because the purpose of non steel pranksters is to destiny bond it's pretty asinine to just ASSUME that they haven't done what they were built for: die.
HO runs a lot of smash and 1 prankster isn't enough. Dbond kills 1 mon not 5

Stakeout just got banned and in reality they are pretty damn similar. One is a move, one is a ability. Stakeout punishes switching with a +2 or +3 if faster move and requires prediction. Smash hits switchins at +2 or +3 if simple or if mon is 2x slower often with a free 140bp move BUT does not require a switch (sash) OR prediction. Smash can be checked by unaware somewhat ineptly as sleep, mold mons and simple +terrain mmx show.

Because you don't need predictions you can afford less coverage ame imo an ability makes is more valuable. I don't suppose anyone will give a damn about my opinion though because a guy who can't get in the ompl is a complete nonentity despite getting a 5+ 50-0s in the past 2 gens with stall, balanced and HO. Why would that idiot know anything?

Ok firstly: I'm sorry that counters I posted to a set lose to a different set, many of them also lose to specs mega Ray and PDon.

Secondly: you're wrong, they don't all lose if it's simple; any of the pranksters deal with simple exactly as they deal with non simple since they never take a hit from anything boosted (switch on the shell smash or an unboosted attack, haze each time before the hit).

As for no non steel pranksters being viable and no high level players ever using them: you're straight up wrong. An extremely highly respected player who topped the ladder this week was using Prankster Xerneas as well as those other sets GmU pokeboss9 mentioned, and also Prankster Aegislash is a steel type and not weak to Close Combat so even if you were right about only steels being viable this would still counter non Moongeist sets (technically it can counter Moongeist sets too but I'd call 49.3% max roll slightly risky).

Please don't say things like "Ugh no-one listens to me despite me being a godly player, my life sucks so much", we obviously do because I'm using my own time to reply.

Edit: Silver_Lucario42 sniped me but it just adds more perfectly good examples to my argument.

 

[CallMeLefty]

Regarding "free" polls, they should never really be the number 1 argument (which it wasn't here), because unexperienced players have a tendency to be way more conservative / not feel like something is broken. For instance, I remember big polls in the OU room being largely against a shadow tag or pheromosa ban, while both these suspect ended in one-sided results. Maybe a solution would be to only allow people who achieved reqs previously and/or post a justification, to get a more skilled voterbase (though that may be hard to implement)?

Regarding the Shell Smash "issue", motherhate and DG9 completely shifted my view and I really do not think it should be banned now. There is nothing that justifies it being more OP than say, contrary or speed boost: they all struggle in similar ways against the same things(unaware, imposter), and every set posted lacks a reasonnable chance at 6-0ing more than a couple of the sample teams(my reasonning being: if a viable set can break a majority of skillfully built teams, then it's probably not involving just skill to break those). While in a "normal" meta, SS could be considered broken, it is on par with things like contrary or speed boost+tail glow in terms of sweeping capabilities.
My previous issue was more about the diversity of set that SS could run, meaning that you had a good chance to switch in something that actually isnt a counter(therefore getting it KOed). However, this is also true for tons of sets, being basically just in the Bh trademark. In a particular meta, I could see SS being broken, but it really isn't powerful enough to justify a ban currently.


In addition, I think that the number 1 priority suspect should have been, and should currently be, primal groudon. While it may not be broken, its impact in the metagame is so big that it would largely participate in any suspect decision.
While stakeout is probably inherently broken, there is probably an argument to be made that, without primal groudon, steel types get way better and Giratina is way less vital, meaning it is harder for things like Mray or Kartana to spam their respective stab moves.
In the same way, a pdon ban would completely change SS, because it is one of the best self-improofing Shell Smasher. Without it, Imposter could be a better check to it. On the other hand, pdon without SS can still abuse Tinted lens, Shift gear PH, QD galvanize sets, maybe to a point where it's a little bit "too" viable. Thus, even if someone thinks SS is an issue, suspecting pdon should be the priority, because neither seems really hugely pressing like CFZ, but one of them can make previous suspect decisions irrelevant.


Finally, just because I dont remember what was said at the CFZ ban: could we, when the meta has stabilized and balanced, try to suspect back in some of the weaker CFZs like Malicious moonsault?

 

[Deleted User 91486]

I currently use Prankster Regi in my stall team with haze/dbond/shore up/switcheroo and a choice scarf. Its job usually is crippling one pokemon with the choice scarf and then using destiny bond to kill another mon, and it works quite well - i'm currently #3 on the ladder, using this team. I'm also thinking about Nuzzle over Switcheroo and obviously goggles as its item, as pivoting moves aren't that important now that trapping is gone (and it allows me to trap an imposter with another mon's anchor shot) to be able to keep up destiny bond for another turn.

Edit: I completely agree with the PDon suspect/ban, even after the Stakeout ban.

And sleep should be definitely looked at too.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

When will the next suspect test/poll be? there are so many things that need to be banned in the current meta...

Another example why sleep should be banned: http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen7balancedhackmons-620489499
At the end, I had a +3 SpA Dialga at ~30% health on the field and a full-health Giratina in the back. The opponent only had a PH Pogre at ~30% health left. And the game I would've easily won was only decided by sleep RNG, causing me to lose in a 3vs1 situation.

 

[aki0s]

When will the next suspect test/poll be? there are so many things that need to be banned in the current meta...

Another example why sleep should be banned: http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen7balancedhackmons-620489499
At the end, I had a +3 SpA Dialga at ~30% health on the field and a full-health Giratina in the back. The opponent only had a PH Pogre at ~30% health left. And the game I would've easily won was only decided by sleep RNG, causing me to lose in a 3vs1 situation.

That last situation will not change if a "sleep ban" is implemented as most likely it will resemble OU's one mon sleep policy. Only one mon on your team in that last scenario was asleep at any-one-time. Perhaps if you ran a better check to PH pogre you wouldn't have this problem.

I don't think a sleep ban is necessary at all. A lot of the people crying for a ban just don't have the measures in place on their team to deal with it or have just played such that their team is destroyed by it. I can already see the posts that are going to follow under this about why I'm incorrect - but so be it. Most good teams should have a PH or M-bounce user that help deal with sleep, not to mention goggles which is mostly mandatory.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

no, if there was a sleep clause, I could have played different. Like using the Solgaleo as Sleep Fodder or something.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

no, if there was a sleep clause, I could have played different. Like using the Solgaleo as Sleep Fodder or something.

While I (probably the most of us) agree Sleep spam was one of the reasons why you lost such battle and Sleep has very uncompetitive aspect, you could get better checks against PH Kyogre. Giratina is never a safe switch-in because 90+% of Kyogre's coverage moves are dedicated to hit Dragon-types or others supereffectively. Also if you realized your opponent is keeping PH Kyogre for late game, you should have kept either your Solgaleo / Registeel healthy enough.

Answering other stuff so this post isn't just commentary:

Another example why sleep should be banned

I don't think banning Sleep overall is necessary, I think the possible option is just banning Spore (or applying Sleep Clause)

• Dominant strategies with either no checks, or the player has to choose between preparing for this specific strategy or the general meta
• Remove the emphasis of the game from skill to outside forces such as luck or amount of time the battlers have.

* Dominant strategies with either no checks, or the player has to choose between preparing for this specific strategy or the general meta-> Safety Goggles

Tbf what do Safety Goggles do outsides blocking Spore? Weather teams aren't even viable as other teams in the meta, and the most common users are Registeel / defensive Tyranitar / others which take no damage from weather damage or are bulky enough to be resilient with it. If I am not clear, just recall yourself typing S-A-F-E-T-Y-G .... every time you use a non-magic bounce wall without a hesitation on item slot. Leftovers? Rocky Helmet? They are lost in our memories because the thoughts about simply blocking Spore has taken over our brain. I supposed this completely invalidates the argument that says "but Safety Goggles is a viable counterplay".

Poison Heal and Comatose do exist. But Poison Heal can be dealt very easily by simply slapping Core Enforcer on a Sleep user, and Comatose barely has any usage other than blocking status and sometimes checking Normalize (which Magic Bounce does much better job with).

* Remove the emphasis of the game from skill to outside forces such as luck or amount of time the battlers have.
->
OMPL game - turn 4-5, Rayquaza singlehandedly turns Giratina into a setup fodder using Spore who would otherwise lose more than half of HP by Core Enforcer.

OMPL game - PH Regigigas gets past Chansey and Zygarde using Spore while evading Metal Burst and Core Enforcer
I mentioned a lot about Regigigas being reliant on Spore for sweeping in BH Central Resources thread but I don't think many took into a note:

I half agree and half disagree. Putting checks to sleep and switching to wallbreakers is the work done by Spore, not by Regigigas. With the same theory, PH Kyogre can just spam Spore on stuff like AV Solg or Gyara and switch to Pdon MMX etc etc.

Something I really want to make clear about Regigigas in general is that it is VERY, very reliant on Spore to sweep teams. If 1 turn sleep occurs, it gets sniped by Specs Surge, Band V-create, Core Enforced, phazed, etc

PH Regigigas won't be so consistent / self-sufficient without using Spore. If it can't put foes to sleep, stuff like Band Pdon can come in next and OHKO it with V-create, Sash-smasher can come in and simply outspeed Regigigas by setting up, and any Unaware walls or Core Enforcer users will shut it down. Even against its hard check Fur Coat Giratina, it can simply press Spore without a thought and switch to Diancie or Audino to gain momentum. This is an example of Spore turning a 'mon into one of the most self-sufficient sweeper which essentially requires no skill to use other than scouting for Core Enforcer.

Also Spore has no inherent drawback in the perspective of a user. They can simply wear Safety Goggles or choose to run PH to call it a day and don't care about Spore being bounced back. Unlike this, Lovely Kiss will require a user to have innate Sleep immunity to prevent backfiring when the move is bounced back. Also 75% accuracy forces the user to take a risk to miss a move out of four times which is not negligible at all in BH meta where every turn matters due to momentum.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

Great post!
I just want to add, that Lovely Kiss is a commonly seen option to reliably put a mon to sleep without having to worry about safety goggles (which also can get knocked off btw), so that the only counterplay would be an ability like Poison Heal or Comatose.

 

[DarkRisingRay]

Can we seriously have a sleep clause? I was destroyed by a team that spammed lovely kiss and you can always say magic bounce is a thing but the opponent ran teravolt twice (one on DeoS n one on MGengar).

I couldn't counter, n he tail glowed and shell smashed to wipe me out.