+1 dedge do like 60% to swampertHey there, everyone. I apologize for the sudden post on a thread that's only gotten one other post on it since November, but I guess that's just how it goes sometimes. I had some questions I wanted to ask about a Pokémon everyone seems to agree is the undisputable best Pokémon in this tier.
For as long as it's been a part of the ADV OU metagame, Tyranitar and its Sand Stream have been at the forefront of the tier, defining much of what makes this metagame what it is. I don't think I should have to explain to anyone here what everyone else has already said about ADV Tyranitar several times over. That being said... I simply cannot get myself to believe Tyranitar is the actual best Pokémon in the tier. As a matter of fact, me and my admitted inexperience think Tyranitar might be the most overrated Pokémon in the metagame.
My problems with Tyranitar being at the top of the viability rankings are twofold. The first issue is that ADV OU absolutely does not lack strong checks to Tyranitar's most standard variants. The ADV OU metagame as a whole is very physically oriented, given the introduction of Choice Band, Intimidate on defense, and the changes to EVs making special walls take more damage from physical attacks than in the previous generation of OU. The result of these changes is a mixed bag for Tyranitar: while it's doing more damage than it was before, especially with Sand Stream factored into the equation, it's also taking more damage than it was previously and can have its own physical offense hampered by some of ADV OU's foremost defensive Pokémon, most notably Skarmory, Swampert, and physically defensive Milotic.
That brings me into my second issue: Tyranitar's matchup spread. Especially when compared to later generations, Rock/Dark isn't the best type combination in the world and leaves Tyranitar with major weaknesses to Water, Grass, Bug, Fighting, Ground, and Steel-Type attacks. Furthermore, Tyranitar's moveset, while versatile, tends to suffer from four-moveslot syndrome just a little bit, since most ADV OU teams naturally come equipped with at least one viable Tyranitar check, with many teams stacking several of them. It's very hard for Tyranitar to make use of Hidden Power types it might want for certain matchups since it wants Hidden Power Bug for Celebi, can run Hidden Power Grass if it wants to for Swampert, and still might want to run other utility moves like Pursuit (which is special in this generation), Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and Fire Blast for Skarmory and Forretress, among others. This isn't much of an issue for Dragon Dance variants that are easier to play than utility, Choice Band, or defensive variants (the latter due to what I said about those weaknesses combined with being reliant on Leftovers for recovery), but those sets have their own problems too- prior to setting up, Fast Dragon Dance Tyranitar still isn't the fastest win condition in the tier, while Bulky Dragon Dance can still be trapped by most Dugtrio sets even at +1 Speed. Tyranitar's reliance on Dragon Dance or paralysis support from team members for its Speed issues is further exasterbated by Tyranitar's inability to hold all of the items it wants- with Leftovers, it can't hold the Lum Berry it would otherwise use to shrug off status one time, but without Leftovers Tyranitar can struggle to stick around throughout a game and fire off its attacks against its positive matchups.
I think what I'm trying to say in this surprisingly long post (sorry about that) is that while I can understand the decision one might make to place Tyranitar at #1, just because Sand Stream really is that impactful, I think the ADV OU metagame has progressed over time in a very anti-Tyranitar fashion because of its high regards. That begs the biggest question- if I don't think Tyranitar should be #1, than who would I put there instead? To be honest, I'm not really sure. No other Pokémon in the tier has an Ability as important as Sand Stream (even the Trapping Abilities don't match its impact on the tier), and while Tyranitar has several flaws, so do other Pokémon in what I'd consider to be one of the most balanced OU metagames in Pokémon's storied history. I'd love to get a discussion going about this, if anyone's interested in doing so. I want to see if I can be convinced that I'm under-rating ADV Tyranitar, but I'll warn you in advance just how stubborn I can be.
I always say Tyranitar is the #1 mon to use and Skarmory is the #1 mon to beat.That begs the biggest question- if I don't think Tyranitar should be #1, than who would I put there instead?
My sweet summer child… It is Not Tyranitat alone which is The Best… but the Rather the Sandstorm it brings…Hey there, everyone. I apologize for the sudden post on a thread that's only gotten one other post on it since November, but I guess that's just how it goes sometimes. I had some questions I wanted to ask about a Pokémon everyone seems to agree is the undisputable best Pokémon in this tier.
For as long as it's been a part of the ADV OU metagame, Tyranitar and its Sand Stream have been at the forefront of the tier, defining much of what makes this metagame what it is. I don't think I should have to explain to anyone here what everyone else has already said about ADV Tyranitar several times over. That being said... I simply cannot get myself to believe Tyranitar is the actual best Pokémon in the tier. As a matter of fact, me and my admitted inexperience think Tyranitar might be the most overrated Pokémon in the metagame.
My problems with Tyranitar being at the top of the viability rankings are twofold. The first issue is that ADV OU absolutely does not lack strong checks to Tyranitar's most standard variants. The ADV OU metagame as a whole is very physically oriented, given the introduction of Choice Band, Intimidate on defense, and the changes to EVs making special walls take more damage from physical attacks than in the previous generation of OU. The result of these changes is a mixed bag for Tyranitar: while it's doing more damage than it was before, especially with Sand Stream factored into the equation, it's also taking more damage than it was previously and can have its own physical offense hampered by some of ADV OU's foremost defensive Pokémon, most notably Skarmory, Swampert, and physically defensive Milotic.
That brings me into my second issue: Tyranitar's matchup spread. Especially when compared to later generations, Rock/Dark isn't the best type combination in the world and leaves Tyranitar with major weaknesses to Water, Grass, Bug, Fighting, Ground, and Steel-Type attacks. Furthermore, Tyranitar's moveset, while versatile, tends to suffer from four-moveslot syndrome just a little bit, since most ADV OU teams naturally come equipped with at least one viable Tyranitar check, with many teams stacking several of them. It's very hard for Tyranitar to make use of Hidden Power types it might want for certain matchups since it wants Hidden Power Bug for Celebi, can run Hidden Power Grass if it wants to for Swampert, and still might want to run other utility moves like Pursuit (which is special in this generation), Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and Fire Blast for Skarmory and Forretress, among others. This isn't much of an issue for Dragon Dance variants that are easier to play than utility, Choice Band, or defensive variants (the latter due to what I said about those weaknesses combined with being reliant on Leftovers for recovery), but those sets have their own problems too- prior to setting up, Fast Dragon Dance Tyranitar still isn't the fastest win condition in the tier, while Bulky Dragon Dance can still be trapped by most Dugtrio sets even at +1 Speed. Tyranitar's reliance on Dragon Dance or paralysis support from team members for its Speed issues is further exasterbated by Tyranitar's inability to hold all of the items it wants- with Leftovers, it can't hold the Lum Berry it would otherwise use to shrug off status one time, but without Leftovers Tyranitar can struggle to stick around throughout a game and fire off its attacks against its positive matchups.
I think what I'm trying to say in this surprisingly long post (sorry about that) is that while I can understand the decision one might make to place Tyranitar at #1, just because Sand Stream really is that impactful, I think the ADV OU metagame has progressed over time in a very anti-Tyranitar fashion because of its high regards. That begs the biggest question- if I don't think Tyranitar should be #1, than who would I put there instead? To be honest, I'm not really sure. No other Pokémon in the tier has an Ability as important as Sand Stream (even the Trapping Abilities don't match its impact on the tier), and while Tyranitar has several flaws, so do other Pokémon in what I'd consider to be one of the most balanced OU metagames in Pokémon's storied history. I'd love to get a discussion going about this, if anyone's interested in doing so. I want to see if I can be convinced that I'm under-rating ADV Tyranitar, but I'll warn you in advance just how stubborn I can be.
I would tend to agree with this statement- while it's very hard to consider Skarmory the top #1 Pokémon in the tier to use, I would consider it the most important weighted matchup for most Pokémon in the tier. When I first started learning ADV OU, I was under the impression that any Pokémon with a bad or at least inconsistent Skarmory matchup (like Tyranitar, now that I think about it) just... wasn't a good Pokémon to use. Nowadays I know that to absolutely not be true, but it still helps. If I was working on my own viability rankings (this totally isn't foreshadowing a future post, nope not at all), I'd probably place Skarmory at anywhere within the tier's top four, alongside Tyranitar, Metagross, and one of either Swampert, Blissey, or Gengar.I always say Tyranitar is the #1 mon to use and Skarmory is the #1 mon to beat.
ADV OU's foremost defensive Pokémon, most notably Skarmory, Swampert, and physically defensive Milotic.
While i agree with most of what you said(except the part where you say that Tyranitar needs paralysis support due to its slow speed), i think you are underestimating in practice just how difficult is to switch into Tyranitar, especially when it's hiding its set. There is not 1 single Pokemon in ADV that can check all of Tyranitars sets: Swampert for example is weak to Hpgrass but it is also afraid of switching into Focus Punch with a layer of Spikes, same goes for Flygon just replace Hpgrass with Ice Beam, Skarmory gets flinched by +1 Rock Slide, same thing for Milotic and Suicune, Dugtrio loses to bulky DD Tar, Metagross is weak to Earthquake, Breloom dies to special moves and +1 Double Edge, etc.Rock/Dark isn't the best type combination in the world and leaves Tyranitar with major weaknesses to Water, Grass, Bug, Fighting, Ground, and Steel-Type attacks.
Off a cliffWere does magcargo fall on this?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-676586I would tend to agree with this statement- while it's very hard to consider Skarmory the top #1 Pokémon in the tier to use, I would consider it the most important weighted matchup for most Pokémon in the tier. When I first started learning ADV OU, I was under the impression that any Pokémon with a bad or at least inconsistent Skarmory matchup (like Tyranitar, now that I think about it) just... wasn't a good Pokémon to use. Nowadays I know that to absolutely not be true, but it still helps. If I was working on my own viability rankings (this totally isn't foreshadowing a future post, nope not at all), I'd probably place Skarmory at anywhere within the tier's top four, alongside Tyranitar, Metagross, and one of either Swampert, Blissey, or Gengar.
Skarmory's main case over Tyranitar lies in its immunity to three of the main four forms of passive damage (the other being Leech Seed) aided by its amazing typing and utility movepool. No other Pokémon in OU can fill the combination of Spikes-immune Steel-Type, physical wall, Spikes setter on its own, and phazer all in one. Forretress can set Spikes and be a Steel-Type wall but it lacks a few of those other things, while retaining a much worse matchup against the Fire-Types Moltres and Charizard. To Tyranitar's credit, those two Fire-Types rising compared to much of ADV OU's storied past does help it establish more of a metagame presence than it had before, as a Pokémon that can very much win against both the Fire-Types and OU's other Rock-Type, that being Aerodactyl (who doubles as a good entry point for Tyranitar's teammate Skarmory too).
Glad to see I'm top of the game as always.View attachment 500646
Hey, would you look at that! Magcargo has its own viability ranking :)
Jokes aside, the real VR begins here:
Ok, this thing refuses to die and switches-in on a lot of things for free, gets free spikes way more often than the other spikers and spikes are the name of the game. It doesn't need suit support like some spikers, and it's an incredible DD bird wall, very splashable in a "this is a spikes team" sort of way. Ez S+ tier moving on
CB, Mixed, Bulky, heck use ice punch this guy goes crazy on any team it's on, your team literally only gets better with its addition. Zero downsides, huge upsides, ez S+ tier, but lower than skarm.
There's not much to say, the only reliable special wall tbh. There are downsides to using Blissey, namely you have to consider it has a large target on her back and there's a lot of teams that are built around chipping/removing Goddess Blissey, but there's a good reason for that. If you can prevent your opponent from KOing Blissey for their wincon, sometimes you just straight up win. And I think that plus zero of the other Spdef wall mons having this distinction lands Blissey in S tier
Annihilates bulky waters, gives mence a run for its money, seriously this bird is gucci x1000. Just don't use it as your sole Spdef or Ice wall, it's ***really*** allergic to ice beams. Nothing compares to what it brings, Ez S-
DD mence gud wincon. Mixed mence gud pivot and pressure setter. CB mence makes me cry tears of joy. An incredible wincon and defensive pivot that will surely take you on an emotional trip, 9/10 ez A+ moving on
This is hands down the second easiest mon to use in this tier. Bring spikes and click the right buttons. Since you're outspeeding everything bar jolteon and the odd BL mons you can't ever be upset with the ancient bird. A+
DD bird check, rock resist, mixed attacker, nice. Nothing compares, bottom of A+ tier
Ok this is the easiest mon to use, and it's not because of any of its sets, it's because it automatically sets up sand. Players seem to generally rank Tar #1 *because* it sets up the perma sand, but I think too many are ignoring how okay of a mon tar is. Sure it can sweep teams after 2 DDs, but any reasonably well-built team has at least 2-3 solid answers for tar or ways to pivot around it creatively to get the right MU for the KO, and they don't even have to be rock resists (*cough cough* bulky waters *cough cough*). As a breaker it's okay, as a suiter it's wonderful because it sets up sand for other wincons like aero/DD mence and removes gar for your cm wincons or even curse lax. Tyranitar fits on a lot of teams and makes them better, but it's not as important as the mons listed above it and in truth if sand is "nice" to have, chances are you can bet on your opponent bringing it anyway. It has some bulk going for it but remember it doesn't have incredible defensive typing, being a normal/flying resist is great but if this really mattered we'd see regirock/sudowoodo/magcargo used more often. A tier mon
Incredible zapdos switch-in, seeds for ez chip on skarm/bliss/lax, ends the careers of bulky waters. Can never replace blissey but darn does it do a good job soaking tbolts/surfs. A tier mon
A- because dugtrio is more constricting in the builder than the mons above it, but can definitely be paired with many wincons such as DD mence if you're crazy enough. Fun mon, funny EQ button go *click*
I see claydol as a sort of punisher, it comes in on fighters, dug, electrics, and rapid spins for free. If there's a gar it usually wins the 1v1 bar freeze, which is not to say it traps and reliably removes gar but it can definitely play the mind game if need be. Incredibly splashable, booms, I don't particularly like claydol but it's hard to ignore what it brings to the table. A- tier
Good bulky water, doesn't fit everywhere. Recover + its bulk and typing is enough for me to give it its A- tier
Water that flies. Sets up on waters, has t-wave, can viably run CB. I love this mon. Constricts in builder B+ tier
This mon removes what to me are the S+ tier mons of ADV, and I think that's pretty cool. Creates "mag" teams which is to say it's constricting in the builder, B+ tier
Good compression. Mandates a suiter. Allows the creation of teams not possible with skarm. B+ tier
Hard to place with my finger. It's good, but it's not that good. Cm rachi sets are okay but underwhelming. Defensive rachi sets are good, but it's not what comes to mind first when looking for a defensive backbone. It's good, but you don't want it everywhere. ??? tier
Comparable to Jirachi. It is not better than the B- tier mons below it, however there are times I feel it is better than Jirachi, and there are times where I feel Jirachi is better than it. It is hard to say, but registeel is bound to give you good returns if used correctly. ??? tier
Good fighter. B-
Not as splashable as dol but is a water w/ recover + nat cure. Boldmie doubles as a bulky water and spinner in my eyes. Offmie is funny, I consider it in same vein as the slowbro tier in RBY, ""good"" (but don't seriously expect consistent results). B-
Nice bulky water. Rest cune is a fish, but is the best fish in the game. No complaints. If it didn't learn ice beam it'd be C tier, maybe less in my eyes. B-
This is the very definition of a goodmon which just so happens to find itself in the very hostile environment of sand and spikes. To those who know how to use the lax well, I salute thee. C+
It wisps, it booms, it hypnos, it does everything, it even checks dd mence. Best spinblocker in the game, but I don't rate spinblocking very highly as can be seen in gar's placement. One can say those who can't use gar have a "skill issue", or that "only skilled players can use gengar effectively", which to an extent I can agree with. Anyone who can pilot a paper-thin "bird" to victory is quite skilled indeed. C+
<3
A sub-par bird, but it hits hard. C
Water remover and Skarm scorcher. C
Removes dug, DD bird check, starf berry recycle. C
I like it I think it's cute w/ its DD, endeavor, explosion, dbond, spike sets. C-
Swampert >>> Flygon. Superman is an okay archetype. C-
Offers nice compression. Zap "check", rock resist, phys wall, mash resist, boom.
Too bad it's a little weak and really wants a suiter or mag. C-
I love Jynx but it only fits on one team. D
The rest of the mons are not worth explaining, but all the mons in D and God No are ordered in viability.
D mon tier can be succinctly explained as "Mons with redeeming qualities"
God No tier can be explained as "Don't even think of using these mons if you value your sanity"