Ok, as I was tagged, I will be the first to reveal my thoughts.
Zigzagoon
The raw power is definetely too much for the Tier as it OHKOs almost everything if it manages to pull that BD off. Thing is, he will almost never achieve it in practice and even then, there are ways to stop the sweep. I will speak about the most optimal set first, since I think the set showed on the Viability Ranking has some flaws (Shadow Ball is useless and the only thing Iron Tail achieves is the guaranted OHKO to Nosepass and Lileep, the first of which is already a low roll and has to be used for a lot of threats, so damaging it before Zig comes is easy):
Zigzagoon @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Return
- Hidden Power Ground
Zigzagoon is certainly diferent from any other offensive threat in this Tier since once its on the field, you can almost never counter it defensively, you need to attack. But that doesn,t make it broken, since very rarely he will manage to boost himself, as any expert player will attack it as soon as he is in. Zig has horrible bulk and despite often coming with Screens, many threats will still damage him for over 50%. Calcs of S and A Ranks:
Delibird: 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Delibird Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 130-153 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <
Can do even more with Double Edge. Sub-Punch also beats Zig providing it hits (80% is a good chance). Special sets also don,t let set-up:
252 SpA Never-Melt Ice Delibird Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon through Light Screen: 109-129 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gloom:
252+ SpA Gloom Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon through Light Screen: 163-192 (75.1 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <
The Defensive one is indeed a prey of Zig, though.
Cubone:
252+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 199-235 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Delcatty: 0 Atk Delcatty Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 66-78 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- 41.2% chance to 3HKO <
Actual prey of Zig.
Dustox: Calcs are not needed, as this has Whirlwind and therefore is only a Zig prey if Zig is the last Mon AND has Refllect ( Sludge Bomb does over 50% otherwise).
Elekid: 252 SpA Elekid Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon through Light Screen: 100-118 (46 - 54.3%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO<
Can use Magnet to guarantee the 50%.
Masquerain: 252+ SpA Masquerain Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon through Light Screen: 104-123 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO < Yes, Hydro has not perfect Accuracy, but if Masquerain has Sub, he doesn,t even need to use Hydro, since he can Stall the Light Screen turns:
252+ SpA Masquerain Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon: 164-194 (75.5 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Meditite: Do I need calcs for this? Also, this guy has Brick Break, a move that destroys Reflect and Light Screen. Most of the time, he will also live Hidden Power Flying from Ledian, the most common Screener, so, if desperate, he can also switch into that.
Nosepass: 252+ Atk Nosepass Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 72-85 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO <
The Restalk Nosepass is a set-up fodder. But not the Explosion one, which OHKOs Zig through Reflect.
Rhyhorn: 252 Atk Rhyhorn Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 123-145 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Staryu: 252 SpA Staryu Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zigzagoon through Light Screen: 104-123 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO<
Mystic Water guarantees the 50%. However, defensive Staryu ( the better one in my opinion) is a set-up fodder if Zig has Light Screen.
Taillow: 252 Atk Choice Band Taillow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon through Reflect: 171-202 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Hidden Power Flying also has 53% to avoid the set-up.
So, out of 12 Mons of S and A rank we have the following scenarios:
-4 (Cubone, Rhyhorn, Meditite and Elekid) virtually never allow set-up. I won,t include here Shadow Ball locked Meditite here, since no good player will ever use that if he sees Screens.
-1 (Dustox) never allows set-up, providing Zig is not the only Mon remaining.
-3 (Delibird, Masquerain and Taillow) will never allow set-up providing they use their Standart sets (see: Sub Masquerai) and don,t choice-lock themselves into a bad move when a Screen user reveals himself.
-3 (Gloom, Nosepass and Staryu) have equally viable sets that allow set-up than those that don,t.
-1 (Delcatty) allows set-up.
I think this is already enough counterplay, but still will write more arguments. Looking at the B Ranks, only Bayleef, Butterfree (thanks to the Lum Berry), Castform (if not Band or Clima), Chinchou (Defensive), Lileep and Poliwag (not boosted) provide safe set-up oportunities under Screens. Of them, Bayleef and Lileep happen to be 2 of the only Mons that can survive a +6 Zigzagoon hit from full (though Lileep will die if Zig uses Iron Tail).
Starting from C Ranks, more set-up oportunities start to appear, but thats why they are C Ranks. Zigzagoon is also one of them, by the way.
But what happens if Zigzagoon happens to boost himself safely? Well, I still think there are ways to stop him after a sack:
Priority:
1: 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Delibird Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon: 114-135 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
< Screens have only 5 turns in Adv, there is not Light Clay. 1 turn is needed to put them, 1 to use BD, another one to kill one Mon. There needs also to be a perfect timing with the death of the Screens user. Optimally, he will die the same turn he puts the right Screen that will allow Zigzagoon to set-up. In reality, this is unlikely to happen, so in practice, Zigzagoon will often have just 1 or 2 turns of Screens when he enters into the field. What I am trying to explain, is the reason I put a calc without Screens, this is a "common" of Zigzagoon setting-up and killing one Mon. After that, Delibird comes and has an 80% of Revenge Killing him.
2: 252 Atk Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon: 87-103 (40 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO< This is not a Band Medi, Band does 59% minimum. Still, I feel this is enough, since Zigzagoon will likely be damaged not only from BD, but also from the weak move the Mon he killed before has used the turn Zig used BD.
3: 252 Atk Choice Band Taillow Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon: 115-136 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO<
Same story here.
4: 0- Atk Elekid Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zigzagoon: 36-43 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO.
< Even this is enough, as Zigzagoon will be damaged from BD and a weak Move.
5 and 6: There are 2 other Ranked mons that learn Priority Moves and are faster than Zig, Farfetch'd and Meowth.
There is a way for Zig to overcome Priority, and is using this set instead of the Standart One:
Zig (Zigzagoon) (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Substitute
With Sub + Salac Berry, Zigzagoon is faster than Elekid (and everything else) and will attack first with Extreme Speed. However, this needs even more support than the original set as the damage that Zig needs to take is below 25%. Therefore both Screens and Memento support is needed and the only Mon that can provide that is Unranked right now ( will speak later about her).
Resisting +6 Zigzagoon hits:
1: +6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Nosepass: 229-270 (87 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO <
If it has Explosion OR the Reflect already ended, it has a 71,2% to win.
2: +6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Bayleef: 268-316 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <
If there is no Screen, HP Grass does 47% minimum. If somehow there is still a Screen, Bayleef could run Counter.
3: +6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Return vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Seaking: 306-361 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO<
Seaking is known as the best Rain Sweeper, but he is also the bulkiest Water in the Tier, so is a viable and customizable pick in Stall Teams or even some Balanced ones. 240 Defense EVs are needed to guarantee the survival of Return, much less for Extreme Speed. Surf does over 66% without Screen and investment.
4: +6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Lileep: 200-236 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <
The main target of Iron Tail because of this. HP Grass does 47% minimun without Screen.
5: +6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pineco: 249-294 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO<
Is rare to have a Pineco with that much health when Zig comes, but it can happen. Zig can,t OHKO the bug from full, and only if there is still Reflect does Pineco need to explode.
6: +6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Farfetch'd: 262-309 (85 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO<
Niche set, but I have used it with some success. Zig will go for Extreme Speed fearing offensive Farf and will die to Body Slam.
7: +6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Koffing: 242-285 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO<
Like Pineco, it doesn,t need to explode if there no Reflect left.
8: +6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Onix: 84-99 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO<
Doesn,t need explanation. However, this one is unreliable, as Onix usually functions as a lead.
9: +6 252+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Kabuto: 138-163 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO< One of the Mons on which Zig can set-up safely is a Rain Castform when there is no Rain. Well, Castform can put that Rain, die, and Kabuto will Revenge Kill easily.
Pretty sure there are more, non-standart sets of Mons like Delcatty, Illumise, Parasect or Gloom himself that could be eved to always survive any Move Zig does at +6, but those 9 are already enough in my opinion.
Except Koffing and Lileep, most of the above can be beaten with Spikes support. However, in my opinion Spikes are mediocre or bad in this Tier. Staryu is one of the best A Rank Mons and always ties at worst ( Explosion) to Pineco and beats Snorunt. I am yet to see a succesfull Cacnea, but even if it does exist, Spikes are just not that good. Even withou Staryu, many Mons prevent those Spikes and Pineco and Delibird can also Spin.
To sum it up, I feel that Zigzagoon has enough counterplay to not only prevent his set-up, but also to stop it if it manages to use Belly Drum safely. Therefore, if I am allowed to ban, I vote
DO NOT BAN on Zigzagoon.
Gloom
Won,t extend as much on this one. Gloom is strong, is bulky and very versatile Mon. Its one of the best Sun Sweepers there, its a good Special Wall, amazing Status Spreader and can even sweep with SD. But is it Ban Worth? I don,t think so. Gloom is just a glue Mon that holds the Tier together, think about Landorus-T on SM OU or Kanga, Hypno and Omastar on Adv UU. The Sun Sweeper set has counterplay in common Mons like Dustox, Delcatty and Castform and more niche ones like Grimer. It suffers from the low Sun duration and can,t neither sweep by itself nor break holes in bulky well made teams. The defensive Set may check a lot of things, but only has 8 Syntesis PPs and the things it checks usually have coverage for Gloom as they would have for any other Bulky Grass or Poison Mon, wearing it down in the long run. In short, the ugly flower has high influence on the Tier , but doesn,t centralize it and is not broken or unhealthy. Therefore, I also will vote
DO NOT BAN on Gloom.
Nominations for VR
Every Mon about which I will speak here is a Mon I have used or faced at least once either in Adv ZU Cup or in test battles, so I have no comments about things like Croconaw, Illumise or Spinda.
Seaking from B to A: Despite 5 turns, Rain is a good Playstyle. There are just 2 common Bulky Grasses in this Tier and 3 Bulky Waters, of which just 2 are commonly used (until this nomination). Seaking is the best Rain Sweeper by far and this nomination should reflect that. But not only its the best Rain sweeper, this fish also is the bulkiest Water in the Tier, a niche that is always useful. There are infinite EV combinations for Restalk Seaking with both Toxic and Ice Beam being viable options for the last slot. It counters Growlithe with that set and also gives troubles to opposing Rain Teams and (depending on the EVs) to strong phisical Mons like Delibird or Meditite. If I want to use Stall, I always consider Seaking for my team, its that good.
Horsea from D to C: Again, Rain is a very viable Playstyle, and this nomination should reflect that. Horsea is actually stronger on the special side than Seaking, although its worse at anything else (what did you want from an unevolved Mon?).
Kabuto from Unranked to C: The set is this one:
Lord Domo (Kabuto) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Surf
- Double-Edge
If this ranking system was made by order, I would actually rank Kabuto higher than Horsea. Its also a Rain Sweeper, but very different from both of the above. Typical Rain answers like Gloom and Castform can,t switch safely into Band Kabuto. At the same time, Mons than can switch into Band Rock Slide or Double Edge (see Rhyhorn and Nosepass) still die from Rain boosted Surf. With Rain on the field, Kabuto has no surefire counter and can even be used to avoid a Zigzagoon sweep if it sets up on Castform. Also resists QA from Delibird and Fake Out from Meditite.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-937493113 < An example of Kabuto sweep in Rain.
Poliwag from B to C As unreliable as Zigzagoon at sweeping. Thanks to Hypnosis it set-ups a little more often, but its also much easier to stop. It can,t share the rank of good Mons like Magnemite, Chinchou or Bayleef.
Growlithe from B to A Only Fire Type of the Tier if we discount the Sunny Castform, but a damn good one. As I already said, there is a lack of bulky waters in this Tier. There are also almost no Dragons and the only Rock that can reliably switch into it is Nosepass. Every time I build a Adv ZU Team I ask myself if I have a reliable way to stop Agility Growlithe, especially if its Sub-Petaya one (best set in my opinion). And unlike other boosters, it can boost in a lot of things, since it scares both S Rank mons and the miriade of Grass and Bug Types that are on this Tier, especually if they are paralyzed. Intimidate is also a great ability that gives this good boy ability to run some (maybe sub-par) defensive sets.
Snorunt from C to D As I already said, Spikes are not good in this Tier when Staryu is very common and the strongest Mon in the Tier (Delibird) is inmune to them. I can understand Pineco in C, as it has good bulk and can at least trade himself with Staryu (or something else) using Explosion or paralyze something with Body Slam when Staryu is not present. Snorunt however, has horrible Stats (where are you going with 50 in EVERYTHING) can,t scare anything besides Grass and Ground types and his defensive typing is terrible. I have not tried Cacnea, but if it turns out to be better when I do it, I would even nominate this to be Unranked.
Beautifly from Unranked to D Set:
ZUper Fly (Beautifly) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Silver Wind
- Aerial Ace
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Double-Edge
Its bad, but it has a niche. Swarm + Silver Wind does respectable damage and it can get to Swarm range by using Double Edge, which also hits quite hard. This is a Bug Flying Mon that doesn,t have to use Hidden Power as a STAB so it can use it to damage Rock or Steel types. Also has a 10% to be pretty much unstopable if it boosts in Swarm range.
Shuppet from Unranked to D Set:
Chupete (Shuppet) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
STAB Shadow Ball. No other reason needed. Also Spinblocks Pineco ( but not Staryu) and annoying Mon that paralyzes and hits quite hard. Inmune to Sleep Powder. Only very specific teams can use it, but its not entirely useless.
Kirlia from Unranked to D Sets:
Moon Dancer (Kirlia) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Memento
Moon Dancer (Kirlia) (F) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Fire Punch
- Endure
First set is the only Mon with Dual Screens + Memento. Second set is a Chlorophile Mons Check that can also Trap Magnemite. Horrible Stats but impresive movepool to be explored, with options like Wish, WoW or Destiny Bond. Hits almost as hard as Natu if invested.
This is all, hope you have enjoyed this bible.
