Z-Moves

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Someoneelse

Someoneelse

Why am I here?
Please read through the discussion of Question 1 in State of the Game to get some background.

Currently Z-Moves have had little use compared to other Generation 7 mechanics and items, due to factors of usefulness, versatility, and cost.

Questions to continue discussion:
  • Do Z-Crystals require a buff or are they fine as is? If so, what implementations would be viable in ASB?
  • How will Z-Moves affect the metagame if they are buffed?
  • Do Z-Crystals require a change in cost? Is this a significant reason for their lack of use so far?
  • Is dual-wielding Z-Crystals a possibility?
Possible suggestions for buffing Z-Crystals from SotG:
  • Multiple uses, akin to Gems
  • BAP or flat damage increases to moves of their respective type
  • Unique boosts to signature Z-crystals
I'll try to track discussion in the OP. Fire away!
 
I'm most in favour of trying out 2 use Z-Crystals myself. There is the possibility for people to find wildly broken combinations within this but it can always be dialled back later if that proves to be too much of the case.

If we went with a less drastic measure I can also see the merit in some kind of a damage boost to their respective types. Perhaps +2 final damage so half a Charcoal might be a good starting place.

I don't like the idea of dual wielding with Z-Crystals since I think that quite obviously opens up too many broken possibilities when a mon can also have access to the consistent boosts of another held item (ie Life Orb, Mega Stone, Focus Band).
 
This thread is easier to answer since we went through it ITC a few hours prior to this post. Going down the list of questions......

Do Z-Crystals require a buff or are they fine as is? If so, what implementations would be viable in ASB?
To be fair, we still have Berries that are only activated once throughout the whole match (Oran, Leppa and Sitrus are the most prominent ones), and they still cost about 6 CC apiece. So, I don't think Z-Crystals are in dire need of a buff. Similar to the aforementioned Berries, Z-Crystals might see zero use except in custom arenas if they continue as they are, but that's normal - why should we expect every Item to get equal use?

Do Z-Crystals require a change in cost? Is this a significant reason for their lack of use so far?
Personally, I do not feel that the CC cost is an issue. It's more of a combination between that and its lack of utility in generic situations. Expert Belts / Life Orbs cost 10 CC too, but the average ASBer will more likely get more use out of those items than say, Wide Lens (8 CC) or a Z-Crystal (whatever the price).

Is dual-wielding Z-Crystals a possibility?
I cannot fully agree with Deadfox above that dual-wielding will open up "too many broken possibilities", as I've not seen concrete examples of interactions between items to that effect yet. I do, however, think that this will have an incredibly big impact on the metagame, perhaps too big.

If dual-wielding Z-Cystals becomes a part of the standard format, that means almost every battler will take advantage of it in the tournament/gym/serious matches where it will be available. Considering the 10 CC cost per Crystal, that's 180 CC to get one of every type, not to mention the Pokemon-specific ones. ASBers that are unable to purchase it due to the cost (eg. new peeps and old cranks who can't invest extra time in speed-farming counters like me) will suddenly find themselves at a disadvantage to those who are able to afford them, simply because the latter had the CC to slap an extra 5 to 10 BAP on a non-combo attack of choice.

Granted, we can implement other stuff to balance this, such as lowering the price to 6 or 4 CC or even less, allowing Gym Leaders to add a "No Z-move" clause, having tournament organisers renting out Z-Crystals for free, custom Tower matches, etc etc. But even at 1 CC per, that's 18 more CC (maybe a little less, depending on whether you'd need the full typing set to be viable) any player will need to spend just to get back on even grounds against each other. Against any change that will undoubtedly shake up the metagame, I'd rather err on the cautious side, and make this a feature in custom matches and Raids rather than the standard format.
 
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dual-wielding z crystals: please no. at that point, instead of being a nice item to have with a flavorful superstrong burst attack, z-crystals are just a random power boost to your team that you are, as zt noted, basically just forced to pay for. and it doesn't really have 'broken' per se possibilities but i am opposed to making z moves just a generic power boost for every team with not even an item cost.

2 move z crystals: this would make the generic burst crystals boost as much as gems, but without the drawback that you have to stretch that out because it can just be burst. i don't like this at all, especially with the 2 move thing.

i am in favor, personally of +1 BAP > 2 dmg > 1 dmg > nothing > 2 z moves > dual wielding, because all of the first three are nice, small buffs that make z crystals actually usable options(with 1.5 damage seeming like a good amount to give in most situations), while the latter two, imo, are not preferable to the current sad state of z crystals
 
Dual Wielding Z-Crystals would require some play testing between competent/great players. So I am out of that question. If it would break things, those are the ones that will find out what it breaks.

Not to imply I am in favor of Dual Wielding with Z-Crystals.

What could be considered is Infinite uses with a cool down period on Z-Crystals as opposed to a set number of uses per battle.
 
I was gonna propose something similar to Akela, to allow Z-moves to be allowed to be used once per round in singles thus giving it a niche as a protect breaker and -- acc move (which IMO should work on dig and the like) which only works on one type of move (so you can always switch to another pokemon that resists the Z-move).
 
To be honest, I feel that most of the proposals fail to catch the main purpose Z-crystals (I mean, for attacking moves) were made for in the main game - that is to say, sacrificing an item slot to nab a kill almost for granted. The reasons for why you would need this in-game may vary. It could be the need to trigger Beast Boost/Moxie, or to obliterate a possible counter with appropriate coverage, or to get around a low accuracy move like Focus Blast.

Now, you may think that combos are the rough ASB equivalent, but that's true only to an extent. While it is true that combos may allow you to get a kill earlier than you would otherwise have had, it is also true that (1) they have a high opportunity cost and (2) "move - combo - cooldown" actually does less dmg than "move - move - move" in most cases.

My proposal is thus to make sure that, however we edit Z-crystals, they stay true to this original purpose. For example, you may have Z-moves like Devastating Drake and Twinkle Tackle get double STAB bonus, or something to that effect. Something which actually allows "move - move - Z-move" to be able to nag 1-round kills in a way "move - move - move" cannot. I mean sure, "move - move - combo" can also nag 1-round kills, but Z-crystals would give you the advantage of not taking a cooldown action (or reduced priority, or extra energy cost), in exchange for your item slot.
 
my brain's not working right now but i'll try to respond

Dual Wielding Z-Crystals: I'm not a fan of this idea, since it removes the opportunity cost of having them in the first place, and instead centralises the metagame around who has the most CC to buy Z-Crystals as ZhengTann mentioned.

Multiple uses: I like this idea when it has a cooldown period, but not much otherwise. Being able to get an extra action worth of damage in two actions seems too powerful to me. Also, being able to get two Z-Status moves off in two actions seems very strong, for instance being able to heal 70HP and switch out with two Z-Teleports, usually for less EN than it would to use Teleport and a healing move. I think I'd prefer a 3 action cooldown (or possibly more) to once per round to avoid being able to use Z-Moves consecutively.

Z-Crystals for ORKO'ing: It's generally very difficult to get an ORKO without targeting an opponent's 4x weakness or having a significant advantage in one attack stat with strong attacks as well. For instance, take a Pokemon with 12BAP STAB moves and a 20BAP STAB Z-Move with 6 Atk vs 100HP / 4 Def:
[12+3+3]*1.5+[12+3+3]*1.5+[20+3+3]*1.5=93DMG​
Even this requires a BAP increase of 5 to get the ORKO, in what is already a pretty favourable position. Plus, OHKO's don't translate very well into ORKO's in ASB, so I don't think ORKO's are a good baseline to adjust the damage of Z-Moves to.

I still like the idea of small BAP / DMG increases to moves of the Z-Crystal's type to compete with Gems / Type-boosting items.
 
Honestly, i feel Z-Moves are fine. Their main purpose in-game just doesnt translate that well in ASB, and i still feel they maintain a decent niche.

Just them being a bit on the weak side is not enough reason for a buff, in my opnion.
 
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Here's a unique idea:

Z-Crystals can be used to activate up to 3 times per match (but only once per round), once for a Physical Attack, once for a Special Attack, and once for a Status Move matching the invoked Z-Move's type. For Mon-specific crystals you can either match the user's type (so Decidium-Z must use Sinister Arrow Raid (physical) and Never-ending Nightmare (special), or match their STABs for the non-specific move (so Decidium-Z Decidueye could use Bloom Doom as its special attack.)

This retains their burst attack status, makes them more relevant to ASB where mixed attacking (esp. with high BAP attacks) is viable, and also lets you access some of the better stat buffing abilities of Z-Crystals.

Even for a mon like Ninjask which has limited BAP attacks, it could use Flyinium-Z for Supersonic Skystrike (12 BAP AA, 12 BAP Air Cutter), and then Z-Roost (clears negative stat boosts) or Z-Defog (grants +1 Acc). This would make it a credible item to use over Life Orb, Expert Belt, etc.

Normalium-Z benefits the most from this I suppose, since Hyper Beam and Giga Impact both have 20 BP variants and Normal has the broadest range of status-boosters, but then Normal is hardly so powerful it doesn't deserve a few fringe benefits.

As far as reffing this would look, basically if a mon has a Z-Crystal attached it'd have its own status and which "charge" had been used:

Z-Physical (1/1)
Z-Special (1/1)
Z-Status (1/1)

After Z-Physical Move:

Z-Physical (0/1)
Z-Special (1/1)
Z-Status (1/1)
 
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I was toying with this idea actually myself earlier, one activation for a damaging attack and one activation for an "other" attack
 
I gamed out a few things with my proposal and wanted to share some additional thoughts, separate from the initial idea.

One of the things with these "Charges" on the Z-Crystals is that in many theoretical scenarios you get left with stranded charges.

The best example of this is probably Grassium-Z Fire types, whose only Grass move is Solar Beam. Solar Beam is actually good enough on its own in ASB that it isn't remotely parallel to its in-game situation, but since no Fire-type gets a physical or status grass move, it only exists for the one-time Bloom Doom.

I had considered in these scenarios that after using your charge for a Z-Move of that specialty, you can use it again by using up the other two charges as replacement materials. This replicates the "2 Z-Move" proposal but allows for more versatility because you could actually double up on Z-Status as well by not using either of your Z-Attacks. For a Pokemon like Claydol which has no reliable recovery, 2 allowances of Z-Teleport would make it massively more viable as unlike Alakazam who can Recover without using a Z-Move, this lets Claydol choose whether it uses Z-Teleport twice or if it uses the 3 charges separately. Alternatively it could use Z-Ally Switch or Z-Heal Block early in the match to get a +2 Spe/SpA, and then if you wanted to preserve it later it could use Z-Teleport to heal and get out of there at the end of the round.

I didn't include this thought in the initial proposal because I hadn't thought of it yet, but I'm confident this would turn Z-Crystals from a mediocre one-time burst attack to a strong and versatile competitive item - maybe too strong and versatile, but I think in the aggregate it actually helps balance "weaker" Pokemon (like say Crustle which doesn't have special Rock moves at all but would love two Rock Wrecker -> Continental Crushes) while not further overpowering stronger Pokemon.

Also, further applications:

Decidium-Z:
1 Z-Charge Sinister Arrow Raid
1 Z-Charge Special Ghost or Grass Attack
1 Z-Charge Status Ghost or Grass Attack.

Incinium-Z:
1 Z-Charge Malicious Moonsault
1 Z-Charge Special Dark or Fire Attack
1 Z-Charge Status Dark or Fire Attack

Primarium-Z
1 Z-Charge Physical Water or Special Fairy Attack [Primarina has no physical Fairy attacks]
1 Z-Charge Oceanic Operatta
1 Z-Charge Status Water or Fairy Attack

Tapunium-Z
1 Z-Charge Guardian of Alola
1 Z-Charge STAB Physical or Special Attack of choice
1 Z-Charge STAB Status Attack of choice

Remaining Mon-Specific Z-Crystals will follow the same patterns, so Snorlium-Z has Pulverizing Pancake and then acts as a Normalium-Z, Aloraichuim has Stoked Sparksurfer and then allows 1 Elec / Psychic Physical STAB and 1 Z-Status Elec/Psychic, etc.

Finally, just in the interests of how much this proposal could change some mons, the strongest things I can think of are:

Normalium-Z Stockpile Arbok/Seviper:

So Arbok and Seviper are definitely low-tier mons. They have great offensive movepools but have difficulty winning damage wars without a STAB advantage. Enter Z-Stockpile, which increases Def and SpD while also healing 30HP. Suddenly, Seviper and Arbok have a ton of sustainability as they can't be poisoned by anything except Salazzle, and can use their strong offensive versatility to full effect.

Normalium-Z Psych Up / Ghostium-Z Spite Defensive Mons:

Steelix would be the one I'd use, but basically giving reliable recovery to some of these mons fundamentally changes how they play. Psych Up is incredibly ubiquitous and maybe allowing two uses of Z-Psych Up would be overpowered, but if that's the issue we can always reduce Z-Psych Up's healing potential. Spite isn't quite as widespread but an amazing number of Pokemon get it as well, and few of them have other recovery options.
 
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Maybe we can do a point based system where the powerful z effects, like z teleport, use up an entire crystal while damaging z moves use half a crystal. This would give incentive to actually use attacks with these things rather than only just powerful status, because right now only thr best status moves seem to be worth it.

This is a kind of spin off idea from the ones above. I would elaborate more but I don't have the time.
 
I bookmarked This Page as a quick reference to what each Z-Status Move does.

The Strongest Support Effects are the following:

Normalium-Z:
Tier 0: Heals 35 HP (+Effect)
Stockpile (Boosts Defenses)
Heal Bell (Heals whole team of Status)
Refresh (Heals User of Status)
Psych Up (Copies Opponents Stat Boosts/Drops)
Conversion 2 (Changes Type favorably)
Transform (Mirrors opposing Pokemon)

Tier 1: Permanent Sharp / Great Atk/Spe Boosters
Belly Drum (Costs 20% Max HP and Maxes Attack, best used at 70% Max HP.)
Bestow (+2 Speed)
Me First (+2 Speed)
Recycle (+2 Speed)
Splash (+3 Attack)

Tier 2: Permanently Boosts All Stats
Celebrate
Conversion
Happy Hour
Hold Hands
Sketch

Tier 3: All Other Effects

[Switch=KO] Darkinium-Z:
Tier 0: Parting Shot (Heals 30 HP, Resets Secondary Status)
Tier 1: Taunt (It's a Taunt you can use during Taunt, it also raises Attack)

Tier 2: All Other Effects.

[Switch=OK] Darkinium-Z:
Tier 0: Parting Shot (Heals 30 HP of replacement.)
Tier 1: Memento (KOs Self and shreds opponents stats, Heals 30 HP of replacement)
Tier 2: Taunt (It's a Taunt you can use during Taunt, it also raises Attack)

Tier 3: All Other Effects

Ghostium-Z:
Tier 0:
Spite (Heals 35 HP, Lowers Opp EN)
[Doubles+ Only] Destiny Bond (Becomes Center of Attention while using Destiny Bond)

Tier 1: Curse (Costs only 20 HP when used at 30 HP below max)

Tier 2: Boosts All Stats
Trick-or-Treat

Tier 3: All other Effects.

Grassium-Z:
Tier 0: Aromatherapy (Heals 35 HP, Heals Status of whole team)

Tier 1: Forest's Curse (Raises All Stats)

Tier 2: All Other Effects.

Icium-Z:
Tier 0: Haze (Heals 35 HP, clears all stat boosts/drops both sides)

Tier 1: Mist (Heals 35 HP, prevents mons stat drops)

Tier 2: Aurora Veil / Hail (Permanently Raise Speed + regular effect.)

Psycihum-Z:
Tier 0: Heals 35 HP (+Effect)
Teleport (Evasive + Healing, or Switch Out/Secondary Status Reset + Healing)

Tier 1: Permanent Offensive Boosts
Ally Switch (+2 Spe)
Heal Block (+2 SpA)
Psycho Shift (+2 SpA)

Tier 2: All Other Effects

For pretty much every other Z-Crystal, you're looking at boosting your damaging coverage or a few of the +1 Spe Effects from Weathers or Terrains.

For obvious reasons Normalium-Z is the elephant in the room, as its Healing effects fat outweigh the value even of Giga Impact / Hyper Beam based Breakneck Blitz (+35HP vs 20 BAP Non-Effectiveness Boosted Damage). It might be a reasonable policy that only actual Normal-types could use its Z-Status Moves twice. Psych Up's distribution is so ubiquitous that it's easier to make a list of Pokemon that DON'T get it than a list of Pokemon that DO.

For all the other "strong" Z-Crystals, Spite has some interesting users (Rhyperior and Aggron lines for example) as well as mostly Dark types with no other form of recovery. It might be wise to apply the same restriction on Ghostium-Z to Normalium-Z. Haze and Mist have out-type distribution primarily to Poison and Water types, respectively. The longest list of Teleporters actually comes from Gen 1 and most of them have other means of healing. That said Evasive Z-Teleport seems pretty nuts. Everything with Aromatherapy [Except lol Xerneas] gets an HP restoring move (usually Wish or Synthesis), but it's still there and it's not reliant on Sun to maximize healing.
 
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Honestly, all of this seems like unnecessary work. The Status Z-Moves are incredibly powerful, just underrated.

I feel theres a very large risk of Z-Moves becoming too powerful if we don't take this seriously. Plus, ordering First in larger battles is hard as is.

Adding Z-Moves to the equation of shit you have to sub for is just too much when you are going up against large movepool mons like Mr. Mime, especially if they can just nuke you to death anyway.

Many Pokemon rely on their Signature item to actually function, and they are already on the weak side as is. The Pokemon that could truly use Z-Moves to their full potential are the ones that aren't reliant on their items or have huge movepools, with many of them already being top tier threats. How is something like Mothim supposed to use a Z-Crystal?

And what about the ones that fit both criteria? Gardevoir and Gallade are great Pokemon even without their Mega Evolution. Slap a Z-Crysyal on them and you have freed up your Mega slot with very little loss in actual power.

I maintain that we do not need to boost Z-Moves not only because they already have a certain niche in ASB, but also because the gap between good and bad Pokemon would increase even more. Do we really need to go against in-game and potentially hurtt the game's health just to buff a mechanic that might be on the weak side?

I don't even think Z-Moves are bad at all, they are just underrated because nobody has used them seriously yet to the best of my knowledge. If they get a sizable buff, we are just going to get even more power creep.
 
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I'm here to propose an alternative: Keep Z-Crystals as is, but reduce their CC cost. I've mentioned above that some 1-use Berries cost 6 CC only, and since Z-Crystals afford a somewhat similar, if numerically bigger advantage (having 5 more BAP that is triggered by choice is IMO better than +10 HP/EN that is triggered by circumstance), we can reduce the CC cost to 7 or 8 CC. This question might have to be a 2-part though - first throw the proposal along with all others describing how to (or not to) change Z-Crystal, and if this option gets majority then vote on 7, 8, or 9.
 
In response to the above post, I don't think that reducing the cost of Z-Crystals will have a significant impact on their viability. Once you purchase the ones you want, CC cost has no bearing on their use in combat (except maybe psychologically for the user). In my opinion, what needs to be considered is, "when do I want to use a Waterium-Z over a Mystic Water," and vice versa. Developing a niche for the crystals that complements similar items (Gems, plates, and type-based final damage modifiers) without centralizing around any of them will be the best way to handle this situation. That said, I haven't personally thought over how to do this well enough to make a sound suggestion.

Ps. I agree that the question could be two-part; will changing/buffing/tweaking their effects as well as lowering the cost of z-crystals lead to a more viable and desirable item?
 
Here's my proposed slate.

First Vote
1a) Should we decrease the CC cost of Z-Crystals?
a. Yes
b. No

2a) Do Z-Crystals need to be buffed?
a. Yes
b. No

Second Vote
1b) How much should Z-Crystals cost?
a. 6 CC
b. 4 CC

2b) How should Z-Crystals be buffed?
a. Multiple charges
b. Infinite uses with cooldown period
c. BAP or flat damage increases to moves of their respective type
d. Write-in candidate

Third Vote
2c) How many charges should Z-Crystals have?
a. 1 Physical, 1 Special, 1 Status
b. 1 Attacking, 1 Status
c. 2

2c) How long should the cooldown period be?
a. 3 actions
b. Once per round
c. Once every two rounds

2c) How much should the damage increase be?
a. +1 BAP
b. 1 flat damage
b. 2 flat damage

Fourth Vote
3) How should signature Z-Crystals be changed?
a. Allow them to use any STAB Z-Move
b. No change
(if 1 Physical, 1 Special, 1 Status or 1 Attacking, 1 Status is selected) c. Allow them to use remaining charges on any STAB Z-Move

48 hours to raise objections
 
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