Why were the older games so unimaginative when it comes to NPC rosters?

[greentyphlosion]

One thing that strikes me about older games is how restrictive they were when it came to the lineups of bosses. DPP got a lot of flak for having some of the bosses use unconventional Pokemon (Candice's Medicham, Volker's Octillery, Flint's Lopunny) but this was partly done because seeing every Pokemon was required to complete the Pokedex, and because of Sinnoh's poor type distribution. But many of the games that came before it had bosses with decidedly lacklustre rosters when you consider all of the available Pokemon at the time.

I haven't played Let's Go Pikachu or Eevee, but one thing I like about them is the way they've spiced up some of the lineups by adding in a few Pokemon that weren't originally there. Some of the changes are minor, like Weezing for Agatha instead of Haunter, while some are a bit more impactful, like Poliwrath for Bruno and Charizard for Lance.

Some examples I can think of to illustrate my point:

-As mentioned, Poliwrath is a Fighting-type, yet no Fighting trainer in RBY uses it.

-Bruno supposedly specialises in Rock as well as Fighting, yet for some reason uses not one but two weak Onix (already Brock's signature Pokemon) rather than Golem

-Team Rocket mainly use the Rattata, Zubat, Drowzee and Grimer lines (with some exceptions), despite the fact that they're supposed to have stolen all kinds of Pokemon

-Most of the Gym Leaders and Elite Four in Johto use Kanto Pokemon, even though there are numerous examples of Gen II Pokemon that would fit on their teams

-No NPCs from Gen II use Chinchou, Lanturn or Ampharos, despite those being the only Electric types in Johto

-In Ruby and Sapphire, Wattson uses Magnemite, Voltorb, and Magneton instead of having the logical choice of Electrike and Manectric as his signature Pokemon (it would seem that the designers recognised this as a flaw, as this was changed in Emerald).

-Team Aqua and Magma hardly ever use anything beyond the generic roster of Zubat, Poochyena, Carvanha, and Numel (though some Magma grunts do use Baltoy in Emerald). The remakes give them Koffing and Grimer respectively, while ignoring the Hoenn-native Poison-type Swalot. There are various Ground and Fire-types Team Magma could have used such as Trapinch, Torkoal, Slugma/Magcargo, and the Geodude line, while Team Aqua has Water-types beyond counting to choose from.

-Continuing on the last point, Hoenn is awash with Water-types: Emerald changed Sidney's Sharpedo to a Crawdaunt (presumably because Archie uses Sharpedo) yet Juan shares Sealeo with Glacia and Whiscash with Wallace when Relicanth, Huntail, Gorebyss, Lanturn, and Starmie all could have been used instead.

 

[Ironmage]

One of the things I've noticed on this front is that trade evolutions show up in NPC rosters very rarely in the earlier gens. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a trainer that noticeably used Golem-kanto, politoed, slowking, porygon2, huntail, or gorebyss. Heck, Bugsy doesn't get Scizor until the rematches in HGSS. The only ones that seem to have gotten used are Machamp, Gengar, Kingdra, and Steelix.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I have some choice words for old-gen in-game teambuilding practices.

-First off, why would you make specialists for types with few to no Pokemon? Agatha should've been a Poison trainer, but no make her a Ghost trainer despite only the Gengar line existing. Same thing goes for Lance.

-Speaking of Lance, his GSC team is the worst champion team by far. It's honestly so bad it's good: All 6 members weak to Rock, bizarre choices a new player would not be familiar with at all at this stage in the game like Aerodactyl and Charizard, and of course the infamous 3 Dragonites and the fact he doesn't have a single Gen 2 Pokemon, which is kind of an issue when you're the champion of Gen 2. The worst part is that they could've easily given him Kingdra to fix up all these issues while calling back to Clair, but nah gotta shoehorn in Charizard instead (although I actually really love Leon so this grievance might be a tad hypocritical, but at least his Charizard is actually frequently seen and set up as a threat while Lance's is just kinda there).

-GSC in general has a big problem with not giving Gym Leaders Gen 2 mons despite options existing for them. Why doesn't Chuck have Hitmontop? What about Misdreavus for Morty? Hoothoot or Murkrow for Falkner perhaps?

-And to top it all off, the Gen 2 Rocket Executive teams are a complete and utter trainwreck. I'm just assuming they are intentionally shit to reflect how Team Rocket in these games is basically in ruins and scrambling for survival, because if they were actually meant to be threatening... I have no words.

Who signed off on these again?

 

[greentyphlosion]

I have some choice words for old-gen in-game teambuilding practices.

-First off, why would you make specialists for types with few to no Pokemon? Agatha should've been a Poison trainer, but no make her a Ghost trainer despite only the Gengar line existing. Same thing goes for Lance.

One of the justifications I've heard for that is that the Elite Four in Gen I all represented "elusive" or "mysterious" types. Ice wasn't really seen much despite there being a handful of Ice Pokemon (it was never unpaired until Gen 3) and had a special niche as the only type strong against Dragons. Ghost played a story role and had a semi-mythical status in-game as a strong and rare sort of Pokemon, while Dragon was not even hinted at through the game to the point where it's completely possible to reach Lance without even realising it existed. Gen II, of course, bigged up the Dragon-type even further by having a clan of trainers who seemingly worshipped Horsea and Dratini as if they were legendary.

Bruno being a Fighting specialist sort of puts a hole in this idea, especially since there was already a Fighting gym, but the Hitmons were sufficiently rare enough in Gen I to feel on par with Pokemon like Jynx or Gengar.

But still, their teams could have been a bit more interesting.

-Speaking of Lance, his GSC team is the worst champion team by far. It's honestly so bad it's good: All 6 members weak to Rock, bizarre choices a new player would not be familiar with at all at this stage in the game like Aerodactyl and Charizard, and of course the infamous 3 Dragonites and the fact he doesn't have a single Gen 2 Pokemon, which is kind of an issue when you're the champion of Gen 2. The worst part is that they could've easily given him Kingdra to fix up all these issues while calling back to Clair, but nah gotta shoehorn in Charizard instead (although I actually really love Leon so this grievance might be a tad hypocritical, but at least his Charizard is actually frequently seen and set up as a threat while Lance's is just kinda there).

Yeah, it's... really bad. In hindsight it's really funny how much I struggled to beat him all those years ago.

He should have had a Kingdra and an Ampharos in place of the two Dragonites. Maybe even a Meganium if you really want to stretch the definition of dragon.

 

[Deck Knight]

I give Gen I and II a pass, because upon replaying them on Virtual Console I realize how spoiled we are now. I literally filled out all the item slots in both the PC and my pack and need to just toss some stuff because of it. Very few mons have a decent learnset naturally. The GSC Lance is a great example. Yes, all his mons are weak to Rock.The problem is the best Pokemon you can get that actually has a Rock-type attack without trading is either Graveler (with Rock Throw / Rollout) or Sudowoodo. Even if you trade up for Golem, it's not going to have Rock Slide unless someone used their post game TM. Both of them are of course slow and won't like taking Outrage on their low SpD.

Lance's problem is actually how easy it is to catch Lapras as a guaranteed overworld spawn on Fridays (watch out for Sharker Lance's Rock Slide Aero though). Lapras *is* one of those few mons with a naturally excellent movepool (Body Slam/Confuse Ray/Ice Beam by L36, just add Surf HM which you already have because you need it to catch Lapras). Actually, Lapras bodies a lot of the E4. But I digress. The earliest Gen games did an amazing amount with the limited resources that they had, trainer rosters is way down the list of priorities. HGSS is a game that might deserve some criticism on trainer roster, but I think Gen I and II are marvels for their time.

 

[chimp]

I give Gen I and II a pass, because upon replaying them on Virtual Console I realize how spoiled we are now. I literally filled out all the item slots in both the PC and my pack and need to just toss some stuff because of it. Very few mons have a decent learnset naturally. The GSC Lance is a great example. Yes, all his mons are weak to Rock.The problem is the best Pokemon you can get that actually has a Rock-type attack without trading is either Graveler (with Rock Throw / Rollout) or Sudowoodo. Even if you trade up for Golem, it's not going to have Rock Slide unless someone used their post game TM. Both of them are of course slow and won't like taking Outrage on their low SpD.

Lance's problem is actually how easy it is to catch Lapras as a guaranteed overworld spawn on Fridays (watch out for Sharker Lance's Rock Slide Aero though). Lapras *is* one of those few mons with a naturally excellent movepool (Body Slam/Confuse Ray/Ice Beam by L36, just add Surf HM which you already have because you need it to catch Lapras). Actually, Lapras bodies a lot of the E4. But I digress. The easiest Gen games did an amazing amount with the limited resources that they had, trainer rosters is way down the list of priorities. HGSS is a game that might deserve some criticism on trainer roster, but I think Gen I and II are marvels for their time.

This is super true. So many Pokemon have exceptionally poor learnsets, and it makes some Pokemon near unusable.
My favorite examples:
Xatu doesn't learn Psychic until level 65 and Natu not until level 50. Otherwise you're stuck with Peck and Night Shade. You can't even get the TM for Psychic until Kanto. Electrode does not learn a single Electric move upon level up, and can't learn Thunderbolt at all.

Combine this with the Physical/Special split and some Pokemon feel really awkward to use nowadays, like Gyarados, Hitmonchan and Gengar.

However, one of my biggest frustrations with older gens was how stingy Game Freak is with some Pokemon. There are so many routes where you look at the available Pokemon and just think "why?" Like Route 113 in Emerald. An interesting, long route through a storm of ash. Pretty cool! But what Pokemon can you find there? Spinda, Skarmory and Slugma. Why only 3 Pokemon? All 300+ Pokemon, by this point, were coded into the game already, with brand new animated sprites and move data. Why not make the regional dex as big as possible? It can't be for game balance... because would throwing in a Houndour or Phanpy really screw the game balance that much? Is it because they wanted to promote trading between games? It just seems like such an odd choice to purposefully limit the available Pokemon in your Pokemon game.

And thats not even considering Pokemon with odd or near-impossible encounter chances, like Munchlax or Spiritomb. I just have a lot of memories of wanting a Pokemon but never having any method of finding it, since the internet was hardly available and I couldn't convince my mom to shell out for a strategy guide. I'm all for having Pokemon be rare, but I've always felt there are way better ways to do it. My dream Pokemon game is one where you can actually completely the Pokedex in one-game.

/rant

 

[LurkerBurger]

I just remembered how much better Giovanni's team is in Pokemon Adventures, where he brings along beedrill and cloyster along side his usual ground types becos dragging around a bunch of nidokings and rhydons have got to get old at some point.

Team rocket also now has other Pokemon off the top of my head they had a tauros and the admins in the FRLG arc had fortresses.

Lance is still the same with his cool dragons and rock type weaknesses.

 

[6Roggenrolas]

Most of the complaints here seem to be about the rosters of major characters like gym leaders, which is fair- one would hope that the game's main point of progression would be a bit more exciting with Pokemon choices, something the earlier gens were a lot worse at.

However, I personally find the failings of regular trainer's rosters to be much more detrimental to the quality of older games. DPP, held up as the ideal Pokemon games by many, have a lot of really bad examples of redundant rosters. It seems that most every fisherman has a Magikarp/Goldeen, every black belt has the Machop line, every hiker has the Geodude line, and so on for a good number of the common trainer classes. This is obviously also an issue in the previous three gens, of course. However, I think Emerald did a better job with this sort of thing overall, since the most common NPC Pokemon (iirc, Poochyena, Shroomish, Meditite lines are just a few examples that show up a lot) at least tend to be new ones and not the same old Kanto mons.

 

[sumwun]

However, I personally find the failings of regular trainer's rosters to be much more detrimental to the quality of older games. DPP, held up as the ideal Pokemon games by many, have a lot of really bad examples of redundant rosters. It seems that most every fisherman has a Magikarp/Goldeen, every black belt has the Machop line, every hiker has the Geodude line, and so on for a good number of the common trainer classes. This is obviously also an issue in the previous three gens, of course. However, I think Emerald did a better job with this sort of thing overall, since the most common NPC Pokemon (iirc, Poochyena, Shroomish, Meditite lines are just a few examples that show up a lot) at least tend to be new ones and not the same old Kanto mons.

One thing I like a lot about DPPt is that almost every Pokemon in the region is used by at least one trainer. In many (if not all) older games, some Pokemon are coded into the game, but they effectively don't ever exist unless you go out of your way to catch and evolve them. I personally never found the old Pokemon any more redundant than the ones like Poochyena and Shroomish, mainly because I haven't played any Kanto games. But overall I agree that regular trainers (and wild Pokemon locations) would be better if they had more diverse Pokemon.

In Emerald, I noticed that NPCs often have weird movesets. Norman's Linoone has 3 normal attacks that are all weaker than strength. The last gym leader has 5 water pulse users when all 5 of them could have learned surf. The definitely worst offender is Lass Sally in the Trick House, who says she's using cut when none of her Pokemon know cut.

 

[Bull Of Heaven]

In Emerald, I noticed that NPCs often have weird movesets. Norman's Linoone has 3 normal attacks that are all weaker than strength. The last gym leader has 5 water pulse users when all 5 of them could have learned surf.

Gym leaders tend to use the TM moves they give out. And back then, gym leader TMs were normally (always?) new moves. Water Pulse was Wallace/Juan’s TM. Norman’s was Facade.

 

[Kurona]

Maybe this goes in the unpopular opinion thread, but screw it: I actually really like when type specialists go outside of their specified types for their teams for multiple reasons.

For one thing, they come off as a hell of a lot smarter than the other gym leaders and elite 4 because they're actually covering their bases. The majority of their teams are based around their specified type, sure; but Candice for instance uses her Medicham to make sure you can't just be spamming Fighting or Rock the whole time, while Volkner's Octillery means you have to bring more than just your best ground-type. Perhaps the crowning glory of this is our very recent example of Raihan, who uses non-Dragon types not just as extra coverage but also to set weather. Combine that with his going up against you in a Double Battle and he's one of the most legitimately difficult gym leaders there's ever been.
There's of course a couple flaws here; Flint's Steelix kinda shares most of Fire's weaknesses and he doesn't have anything particularly strong against Water, and my aforementioned comment about Volkner is kinda funny in the face of it being the gen where one of the starters is the very first Grass/Ground type. Nevertheless, it still involves a bit more strategy than the usual.

Secondly though, beyond just the raw strategy; thematically it's about their team being themed around a specific type rather than just being the type, which I find a lot more clever. Let's again look at Flint, probably the most infamous example of this: his Steelix and Lopunny both have Sunny Day and a fire-type move of their own (Fire Fang and Fire Punch respectively), which helps out his other fire-types a lot. His Drifblim also has Will-O-Wisp to inflict burns -- all of this put together implies that he's themed a lot more around strategies involving fire-types beyond just using Pokémon and moves of that type.
Flavour-wise though, those Pokémon admittedly aren't exactly connected to Fire themselves -- you could maybe argue something about Steel requiring heat to temper or something along those lines, but it's not terribly clear nor consistent. Thankfully, we have other examples! Medicham is a Pokémon that takes a lot of inspiration from meditation, focus and willpower through harsh conditions; so even as a kid I picked up that it's right at home in an Ice-type gym with Candice. Lance's Pokémon obviously are all Dragon-like (people have requested Gyarados and Charizard actually be dragon-type since 1996), while Aaron's Drapion is quite clearly a very big monstrous bug. Agatha's Golbat and Arbok? Pokémon who draw quite a lot on fear and even have abstract methods in their movepools like Glare and Haze for that purpose. You've also got smaller examples like Lorelei's Slowbro being something most commonly found in Kanto's ice dungeon; the Seafoam Islands.


That said, I'm not going to act like every instance of type divergence is something I can give reasonable justifications for. Bruno's two Onix have always been a confusing choice to me, even ignoring Primeape and Poliwrath being options he could have used. Assuming that they're going for similar reasons I've mentioned above (and possibly for consistency with the rest of Kanto's Elite Four having other Pokémon outside their types), why Onix? Pokémon Adventures hashes out an interesting training reason, though that's always felt like the writers cleverly working with what they were given from the games than something that was originally intended. My best guess is that it's in every location you find Machop, but it's still strange that he didn't pick other Pokémon like maybe Golem who can learn certain fighting-type moves like Seismic Toss or Counter; or fighting-themed ones like Mega Punch or Mega Kick -- not to mention that it's a Pokémon the player has not run into unless they have evolved their own. Onix has always come off as an odd choice.





To address one other thing; the abundance of Gen 1 Pokémon on teams used by trainers in Johto -- whether significant Gym Leader, Elite 4 or Rival or your random Bug Catcher or Ace Trainer. I do agree that more Gen 2 Pokémon should have been put in, but I think it's also important to understand how Gen 2 was made -- it was, more than anything else, Pokémon 2. While every future generation was built much more around its own identity and being its own thing, Gen 2 in many ways specifically posits itself as a sequel and expansion to the previous generation more than any other. It's why there is such a small pool of new Pokémon and why almost half of them are new evolutions or pre-evolutions of Gen 1 Pokémon -- and even many that aren't are still thematically connected to Gen 1 Pokémon in some way; such as Heracross being a Pinsir counterpart or Lugia being the trio master of Zapdos, Articuno or Moltres.
It's essentially an expansion pack in almost a similar way to our new Sword & Shield Expansion Pass. Rather than this being a case of "Here are our new Gen 2 Pokémon, and of course some old ones are along for the ride too", it's more like "here's all the Pokémon you know and love, and we've sprinkled in new things they can do and become as well as a few brand new ones too!". Not saying I necessarily agree with the direction or that I like it, but once you start thinking of Gold & Silver in those terms; a lot of things become clear. Falkner isn't using the old Gen 1 flying types instead of the new ones; he's using the flying-types. Will isn't using predominantly old Psychic-types in place of newer ones; he's using the Psychic-types alongside one of the new ones.