Which is the better late game sweeper?

TastelessHat

A lot of RMTs recently often include Swords Dance Lucario as their late game sweeper. For those who don't know, here is the set:
Lucario @ Life Orb
Adamant / Jolly Nature
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 6 Hp
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Crunch / Ice Punch / Stone Edge
- Extremespeed
The main reason that the analysis lists this as being "The most threatening late-game sweeper" is because of it's typing, stats and movepool. First, it's typing. Steel / Fighting grants many resistances including 4x Rock, 4x Dark and 4x Bug. However, it is weak to Fire, Ground and Fighting. Furthermore, it's 70/70/70 defences are too fragile to take most resisted attacks. The main attacks Lucario switches into are it's 4x resistances.

Pokemon that commonly run Stone Edge (This is the only offensive rock move to be considered besides Rock Slide, which is very similar):
Rhyperior
Areodactyl
Gyrados
Lucario
Heracross
Infernape
Machamp
Lucario
Mamoswine
Tyranitar
Of all of these, none of them are safe to come in on. Every pokemon on the list carries an attack that can hit Lucario for super effective damage. Many gain STAB as well.

Pokemon that commonly run Bug typed attacks:
Heracross
Scizor
Ninjask
Lucario can only switch into Ninjask, which is rarely seen. Lucario can take a U-turn, but the Scizor will be able to switch to a counter. Heracross has STAB Close Combat.

Pokemon that commonly run Dark typed attacks:
Tyranitar
Weavile
Scizor
Machamp
Lucario
Umbreon
Heracross
Once again, there are few safe switch ins. Umbreon can beat Lucario with Yawn + Protect. Weavile has Brick Break.

Besides it's typing, Lucario has it's stats and movepool. With 70 base defences, it won't be walling anything soon. Furthermore, most RMTs with Lucario run the Swords Dance set only, not abusing it's massive movepool.

By the title of this topic, I imply there might be a better late game sweeper then Lucario. This is true. I think that Empoleon is the better late game sweeper. For those who don't know the set, here it is:
Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
Modest Nature
12 Hp / 12 Def / 252 SpAtk / 232 Spe
- Agility
- Substitute
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Grass Knot
This set aims to win using Petaya Berry, Torrent and Agility to get massive SpAtk and Speed. A Torrent Petaya boosted Surf is equivalent to a Swords Dance (1 + .5 +.5 = 2). Agility also doubles it's Speed, making it faster then Lucario. Substitute blocks status that plagues Lucario. And, of course, it has better defences. 84/88/101 matches well with the Steel / Water typing. Notice how Lucario and Empoleon both share Steel typing. The numerous resistances granted by it are one of the reasons that Lucario is considered so great. Empoleon has better defences to utilize them, however. It also has a handy 4x resistance to Bullet Punch, which Lucario lacks. After 1 Close Combat, Bullet Punch does 235 damage on average, OHKOing Lucario after LO damage. By contrast, it does 49 damage to Empoleon, which will survive after substituting down to the Petaya boost. Empoleon also resists every priority move in the game besides Mach Punch / Vacuum Wave, which are uncommon.
In conclusion, I think that Empoleon is the better late-game sweeper. Discuss.
 
I agree. Although I'm sure there are many times epoleon may be better, only having two moves makes him much easer to wall than luke.
 
Even if it wasn't completely subjective, "best sweeper" is entirely team dependant. You can't just throw Lucario on your team and sweep at the end, you need to build up to it. Lucario won't be sweeping if the rest of your team can't beat Scarf Rotom, for example. There is no "best sweeper" because something like Dragon Dance Salamence would be better than Swords Dance Lucario on a lot of teams, and vice-versa. Pokemon is too dependant on team matchups to decide something like this, there is no discussion possible here =\

TastelessHat said:
(1.5 + 1.5 = 2)
Click to expand...

lol
 
Doesn't the most common special wall in the game stops Empoleon's party a little too easily (Blissey) for it to be considered best in anything? Outside of stall you might see CM Suicune / Vappy stop the most common Surf/Ice Beam Empoleon too. I used to think he was a little underrated, but his usage has settled him in about the right spot he should be. He is a good tool to take out poorly made offensive teams -- but well made balance/stall don't overlook him. They don't overlook Lucario either, but he just gives a lot more to teams than Empoleon.

This kind of piggy back's on jrrrrr's thoughts - you need to set up whatever version of Lucario you are using, but you can use Lucario and tailor its moveset to beat specific "counters" by using Crunch for Celebi/Rotom/Dusknoir, Stone Edge for Zapdos/Gyarados, Ice Punch for Gliscor (though you want to catch him on the swap otherwise you risk being outsped), etc. I haven't even touched on the SpecsLuke yet and his utility to take out specific risks too. Empoleon has a little too much of the "one trick pony" feel to it with the Subpetaya and agility strategy.

The usage stats can be deceiving on certain pokemon, but these two are about right in there respective placements.
 
I think Lucario is a better late game sweeper b/c of SD ExtmSpd.
Although Empoleon is nice too since is resists most priority moves.
 
When using Luke as a late-game sweeper, the rest of your team needs to support him by dragging out threats and dealing with them long before Luke ever sees the outside of his pokeball.

Also, as another user has already pointed out, even if you're going to use your suggestion, SubPetaya Empoleon, you've got to lure out and kill any blisseys (and vaporeon/celebi etc. depending on whether you choose ice beam or GK as your secondary move) hiding in the background. Otherwise empoleon too becomes useless, especially if your opponent waits until you're down to 25% health (after consuming the petaya) to bring out the check.
 
neither one is completely the better late game sweeper, they are both powerful sweepers that can devastate teams with proper support, overall though i would say lucario is higher in usage than empoleon because his counters are easier to deal with, for example if you can get hippowdon down to around 70%-80% it can no longer beat luke after he sword dances, but if you try to sweep with empoleon and your opponent has a blissey, even at half health it will still be able to wall empoleon.

Another reason lucario is arguably better is that he is more capable of sweeping without setting up, since he has higher speed and higher base power moves.
 
I've had tsted this and it's the best "cleaner" (AKA late game sweeper) that i've ever used

Gentlemen, behold the might of Double Dance Feraligatr

Feraligatr (M) @ Salac Berry
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall

I know it's walled by mence, gyara, tropius (lol) but whatever, if somehow he gets 2 set ups (1 DD and 1 SD) and mence, gyara or tropius (lol again) are below 50% hp, they're dead.

Salac to outrun scarved pokemon that may come with 1 DD.

HP for bulky (in other words, more time to set up)

That's pretty much it. I love Feral.
 
TastelessHat said:
If this is true, then the Lucario analysis shouldn't be telling you that Lucario is "arguably the best late game sweeper in OU".
Click to expand...

It says that because Lucario's Steel-typing gives it a ton of resistances to come into and start setting up, which means that it is easier to fit into a team. A late game sweeper isn't sweeping anything if its team can't set it up. Anything can be the best late game sweeper if it is on a team designed to have it sweep at the end, Lucario is "arguably the best" because it is one of the most common and the analysis is supposed to reflect those things.

The "best sweeper" is entirely dependant on your team, your opponent's team and the match-up so far...there is no possible way to answer the question without saying "it depends". Your opponent's last mons are Scarf Ttar and Scarf Gengar....SD Lucario suddenly looks a lot worse now, doesn't it? In that situation, Fake Out/Mach Punch/Sucker Punch Technitop is a much better late game sweeper than Lucario. These things are too dependent on what your opponents are using to determine in a thread like this.
 
@riverside DD+SD is horrible you should replace one of them with substitute to block status or another move for coverage
 
SoT said:
Isn't this kind of subjective?
Click to expand...
Responding to this topic without being subjective would be pretty hard in my opinion, don't you think?

Anyways, I'm just going to agree with everyone else. There is no best late-game sweeper. It all depends if you manage to lay down a scenario in which it is possible for your late-game sweeper to actually sweep.
 
I have actually been running this lately. It's pretty LOL, but,

dpmfb130.png

Gyrados @ Leichi Berry
Adamant

Waterfall
Dragon Dance
Endure
Flail

With rain dance support and priority lours, this thing is actually really good. Youd be surprised. I mean, offensive life orb gyra can rip through teams and do a lot to it's own counters, but a +2 gyrados with a base 200 power move + 80 base power STAB that gets coverage on every non-uber besides empoleon? YES PLEASE!

Am currently testing lucario.
 
Late game sweepers depend on the team. If you have things to deal with Blissey, Cress, and other counters, than SubPoleon may work better.

If you have things to deal with Gliscor, and other counters to Lucario, Lucario would be more suited for your team.

That's why I think that if you plan to have a "late-game sweeper" on your team, majority of the time the team should be built around it. Unless it perfectly fits a niche, teams will be more successful if it's the main point of the team.
 
latios315 said:
@riverside DD+SD is horrible you should replace one of them with substitute to block status or another move for coverage
Click to expand...

It's late game sweeper, even with low coverage waterfall 1HKO pokemon that resist it if they're like 40% or 50% health (2 gyarados and mence switchs with SRs)
 
Riverside said:
I've had tsted this and it's the best "cleaner" (AKA late game sweeper) that i've ever used

Gentlemen, behold the might of Double Dance Feraligatr

Feraligatr (M) @ Salac Berry
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall

I know it's walled by mence, gyara, tropius (lol) but whatever, if somehow he gets 2 set ups (1 DD and 1 SD) and mence, gyara or tropius (lol again) are below 50% hp, they're dead.

Salac to outrun scarved pokemon that may come with 1 DD.

HP for bulky (in other words, more time to set up)

That's pretty much it. I love Feral.
Click to expand...
My question here is, how do you find the opportunity to set up with this? The only thing I could see this setting up on is choiced Heatran or Jirachi, and without the raw power of Swords Dance, Feraligatr can be beaten pretty easily by anything that can take a +1 Waterfall. In the case of Swords Dance, it can be outsped in a lot of scenarios and easily threatened.
 
I haven't used him since some time (because now i play only with NU) but i remember I set up against the likes as Mamoswine, Bronzong, Cresselia (of course I watch out if they have T-wave or hypnosis and plenty health) Forry and Gliscor. Maybe some others depending on the situation

When I use Feral against one of this pokemon, I decide if SD or DD first in the switch depending on the scenario (for example, if the opponent has Gyara with 50%- health I SD and kill him later, because intimidate will make DD boost kinda-useless (not at all of course, at least I dont have -1 attack in that scenario).

If he has something like Weavile I DD and see what happens, if I predict a switch (because he's scared of losing weavile (for example, if weavile was a threat until this point of the fight) I SD, if not I kill him.

I should try him sometime near to post some little logs about him, how he set up and how he sweep.
 
I think the OP is missing something here-

Rhyperior
Areodactyl
Gyrados
Lucario
Heracross
Infernape
Machamp
Lucario
Mamoswine
Tyranitar
Of all of these, none of them are safe to come in on. Every pokemon on the list carries an attack that can hit Lucario for super effective damage. Many gain STAB as well.

Pokemon that commonly run Bug typed attacks:
Heracross
Scizor
Ninjask
Lucario can only switch into Ninjask, which is rarely seen. Lucario can take a U-turn, but the Scizor will be able to switch to a counter. Heracross has STAB Close Combat.

Pokemon that commonly run Dark typed attacks:
Tyranitar
Weavile
Scizor
Machamp
Lucario
Umbreon
Heracross
Once again, there are few safe switch ins. Umbreon can beat Lucario with Yawn + Protect. Weavile has Brick Break.

Besides it's typing, Lucario has it's stats and movepool. With 70 base defences, it won't be walling anything soon.
Click to expand...

Do you know the most common way of setting up Luke? Coming in on a Choice Locked Pursuit/Stone Edge/Megahorn/resistant move and SDing on the switch. You don't blindly switch Luke in, you wait for the opportunity.

In that list of yours, how many of them carry CB/CS? Quite a few. And how many of them are slower than Luke and fall to CC/Crunch? Quite a few. And how many of them who are faster fall to Extremespeed? Quite a few.

Gyarados is really the only one on that list(maybe Infernape if it has Mach Punch/ Vacuum Wave) who can come back in after something dies and pose a threat to Luke. Everyone else falls to either a Close Combat or ExtremeSpeed. So that list is basically a list of pokemon annihilated by Luke, which is contradictory to your stance on this matter.

Not that Empoleon is a bad sweeper. In fact, he's fantastic. It really depends on your team.
 
Salamence is definately up there: both DD and Mix variants.
I have been trying to make dragonite work as late-game sweeper (that overclasses others), but sadly...this is very unlikely to work :(
 
lordkira said:
Salamence is definately up there: both DD and Mix variants.
I have been trying to make dragonite work as late-game sweeper (that overclasses others), but sadly...this is very unlikely to work :(
Click to expand...

If you're using Dragonite as a DD straight sweeper,then you're doing it wrong...clearly,Salamence does it better
All Dragonite needs is bulkyness,not power.Dragonite with tons of defense Evs is simply amazing as a DD sweeper,being able to set up more than one or two DD rather easily.

"But Salamence has Intimidate,which makes it bulkier phisically than Dragonite"

But,mind you,that works ONLY WHEN YOU SWITCH IN SALAMENCE.That's what most people can't get.What are you gonna do when Scizor comes in and Bullet Punch you?Or Lucario Extremespeed?Or even Weavile/Mamoswine Ice Shards you?
Dragonite can survive all those(even Ice Shards...barely,but it survives)

Giving Dragonite bulkyness is the way to go.I mean,taking 35%from CB Scizor Bullet Punch isn't nice?
Oh well,he's better at breaking walls too.Superpower and Thunderbolt says for himself.

But,since that's not the question of the topic,i say Lucario is really the best late sweeper.I mean,i never use the top 20 pokes(too boring),but i know Lucario ALWAYS gives me problems when he comes in something he resists.
Infernape is another one giving me headaches when he comes in late game.
 
Yeah I am into Bulky DD
however, it hasn't been working too nicely for me
well it is decent but mence does it better imho
For your Bulky DDNite what is your EV Spread? How will you invest into def or sp.def evs if you need evs for hp and certain amoutn of speed and then some attack?
 
lordkira said:
Yeah I am into Bulky DD
however, it hasn't been working too nicely for me
well it is decent but mence does it better imho
For your Bulky DDNite what is your EV Spread? How will you invest into def or sp.def evs if you need evs for hp and certain amoutn of speed and then some attack?
Click to expand...

252 hp/200 def/40 sp.def/12 spd
Adamant

There's no need to put in attack evs.Dragonite is already damn powerful even without evs.
Change the speed evs to hit 200 spd to outspeed neutral base 100 speed pokes after a DD.I don't remember Dragonite speed without evs.
Give him one of these 2 options:Light Screen or Fire Punch.Fire Punch if you dislike those steels,and Heatran can't take you without hp ice or Explosion(even with explosion,Dragonite loses 60% of its life.You WILL know when he's gonna explode against Dragonite,so just Roost off the health.)

Light Screen if you want to be even more bulky...you can take Ice Beams easily,allowing you to DD more times.
And focus on letting Dragonite's hp high so you can't be revenge killed easily.

Logically,you have to wait for an opportunity to switch.One DD is what you need to start the game...if you can't do at least one DD no matter what,then forget about using him and use Salamence instead,since it doesn't need DD to be a pain for everyone.That's one of the main reasons why Sala is used so much,and arguably better than Dragonite
 
lucario needs proper support to be able to do what it needs to do. When its paired up with pokemon to compliment it he becomes rather deadly and once a swords dance is up he will tear things apart, being able to simply dominate a ton of pokemon through coverage and his incredible attack combined with close combat and extremespeed. His speed isn't often a let down as extreme speed can stop most faster sweepers because they are often frail or take a decent amount of rocks damage (gyara and sally)

I personally think something like specs lucario can also work well with late gaming from personal experience, vacuum wave can take out some threats and weakened sweepers and aura sphere can even hurt blissey to a certain extent if it tries switching in once it knows your set. Proper spikes and rocks support also make this set deadly as well as the swords dance one because of how many attacks get turned into an OHKO with extreme speed and doesn't require you to do as much chip damage throughout the battle to be able to let him do his thing at the end.

also, empoleons typing isn't really any better than lucarios and the drop in offense isn't something to compensate for lucarios strength, it may be strong but saying empoleon is better is like saying just about any set up pokemon works well late game, which is true but cario is simply the most effective.
 
M BLADE said:
252 hp/200 def/40 sp.def/12 spd
Adamant

There's no need to put in attack evs.Dragonite is already damn powerful even without evs.
Change the speed evs to hit 200 spd to outspeed neutral base 100 speed pokes after a DD.I don't remember Dragonite speed without evs.
Give him one of these 2 options:Light Screen or Fire Punch.Fire Punch if you dislike those steels,and Heatran can't take you without hp ice or Explosion(even with explosion,Dragonite loses 60% of its life.You WILL know when he's gonna explode against Dragonite,so just Roost off the health.)

Light Screen if you want to be even more bulky...you can take Ice Beams easily,allowing you to DD more times.
And focus on letting Dragonite's hp high so you can't be revenge killed easily.

Logically,you have to wait for an opportunity to switch.One DD is what you need to start the game...if you can't do at least one DD no matter what,then forget about using him and use Salamence instead,since it doesn't need DD to be a pain for everyone.That's one of the main reasons why Sala is used so much,and arguably better than Dragonite
Click to expand...

I am not into mence that everyone has.
Dragonite on the other hand is "unique" or rather uncommon in the current metagame (and it's the original dragon XD!!!!). Is that the new EV spread for the Bulky DD Nite? Also I am thinking of making his speed enought o out run positive natured 100 basers after one DD since many mences for instance are going for that these days.

What is the reason behind that particular def and sp.def ev though?
do they hit the certain def breakpoint again certain pokemons?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top